View Full Version : Primary Weapon System Piston Retrofit Kit
Archangel
01-24-2008, 16:45
Has anyone had any experience with this system? I don't want to get into a Piston -vs DI debate as it has been hashed out here and every other weapon forum in America.
Anyway, I have spoken to Todd (the owner) on several occassions and he seemed to genuinely care about taking care of his customers. The only PWS product that I have is the FSC556 and I'm pretty happy with it.
At $400 + a 10% MIL discount, it doesn't seem like a bad deal if one REALLY wants to get a piston upper. I'm leaning towards one since I use suppressors on my weapons and wouldn't mind less blowback in my face.
Thoughts?
http://www.primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=7&idproduct=24
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112
Dude, why don't you just send it to LWRC for a retrofit? Their system is more proven and they also offer the mil discount.
The Reaper
01-24-2008, 17:47
Dude, why don't you just send it to LWRC for a retrofit? Their system is more proven and they also offer the mil discount.
For less than $400?
TR
For less than $400?
TR
Not going to happen for $400......My brother and I rebuilt my own on LWRC company machines and it still ran me $300. Nuff said ;)
PWS is a vendor for LWRC for flash hiders and compensators. Not piston systems as some have been mistaken. That being said, LWRC will not field questions about PWS piston system and vice versa.....they are all good friends and would like to remain that way.
Not saying to buy LWRC or PWS. Op rod is a bit slender for my liking, I just like more robust systems.
PWS does make excellent muzzle brakes......loud, but great.
rubberneck
01-24-2008, 19:11
There is a guy on another forum that has one of the prototypes and has several thousand rounds through it and loves it. It is so new that I doubt that you will find that many with any serious round count racked up on it. I love the concept behind the systems but since I don't have a can or an SBR I can't justify laying out $400 for one an a rifle that runs just fine without it.
rubberneck
01-24-2008, 19:13
Dude, why don't you just send it to LWRC for a retrofit? Their system is more proven and they also offer the mil discount.
I called those guys back in October and asked if that was even possible and was told that it is, but that they weren't going to do them for non government contracts.
I called those guys back in October and asked if that was even possible and was told that it is, but that they weren't going to do them for non government contracts.
Odd, not the case from my last conversation with a company rep whom I know to be reliable (28 years worth of reliability). PM me the individuals name and I'll run it to ground for you. Sounds like someone fed you a line of BS, I have my suspicions of who, just like to confirm. I'll also get you a no crap price and timeframe if you are still interested.
Archangel
01-24-2008, 21:17
Dude, why don't you just send it to LWRC for a retrofit? Their system is more proven and they also offer the mil discount.
Not all of us are young single bucking studs like you anymore. Some of us have crumbsnatchers to feed.
Last I checked, LWRC's price for a conversion was still over $1,000 with my MIL discount and (unless I am misinformed) the LWRC system did not give me an option for gas adjustment when using a suppressor.
Peregrino
01-24-2008, 22:35
Odd, not the case from my last conversation with a company rep whom I know to be reliable (28 years worth of reliability). PM me the individuals name and I'll run it to ground for you. Sounds like someone fed you a line of BS, I have my suspicions of who, just like to confirm. I'll also get you a no crap price and timeframe if you are still interested.
jbour13 - Glad you're chiming in on this one. I had the pleasure of meeting your "source" at the Expo here and fully intend to follow through with a conversion. It'll have to wait until a couple higher priority expendatures are out of the way, but I'm looking forward to it. Even went to the trouble of getting another upper expressly for the purpose. Nice product and seemed like a decent crew all the way around. Wish I'd gotten there with more time to BS; it was closing and they had already started packing up the toys. My regards to all.
militarymoron
01-25-2008, 00:19
i've got one (PWS piston conversion - new build actually), but need to put some rounds through it. with the new baby, i haven't had much time to shoot. i opted for a midlength setup -
Archangel
01-25-2008, 11:14
i've got one (PWS piston conversion - new build actually), but need to put some rounds through it. with the new baby, i haven't had much time to shoot. i opted for a midlength setup -
That Aimpoint T1 in that LR mount is really growing on me. I would love that on my SBR, but I just can't justify the $640 price when I can pick up a M3L in a LR for $400.
Either case, great looking carbine.
Just curious, did you decide on a ML for the asthetics of it because with a piston system, the advatages of a ML gas system is moot.
Not all of us are young single bucking studs like you anymore. Some of us have crumbsnatchers to feed.
Why are they snatching crumbs when they should be picking up brass? Who's in charge around there, anyway? :D
ETA: The Micro T-1 in a GG&G mount will ride on my 10.5" M6A2 when it comes in. You can borrow it anytime.
Archangel
01-25-2008, 13:17
Why are they snatching crumbs when they should be picking up brass? Who's in charge around there, anyway? :D
ETA: The Micro T-1 in a GG&G mount will ride on my 10.5" M6A2 when it comes in. You can borrow it anytime.
Yeah, the 3 year old likes the warmth of a full diaper and you want me to try to get him to pick up brass?
WHAT?!!! You're finally coming over to the lowly Aimpoint camp? This I've got to see. Whatever happend to the wrong-eye dominant thing? Personally, I like to leave my Aimpoint ON between deployments. I like to see you try that between drills with your 553. :cool:
Wish I could make it to the Paul Howe instructor course with you, but I'm trying to work a deal to fly Paul down to train our boys at our facility (when it gets completed). Hell, if it works out the way I expect it to, I'd like to invite a few PS members down.
rubberneck
01-25-2008, 13:24
Odd, not the case from my last conversation with a company rep whom I know to be reliable (28 years worth of reliability). PM me the individuals name and I'll run it to ground for you. Sounds like someone fed you a line of BS, I have my suspicions of who, just like to confirm. I'll also get you a no crap price and timeframe if you are still interested.
To be fair I thought about it and it was June and not October and I spoke with the sales manager and one of the tech guys, they had me on speaker phone. I cannot for the life of me remember their names.
militarymoron
01-25-2008, 14:31
That Aimpoint T1 in that LR mount is really growing on me. I would love that on my SBR, but I just can't justify the $640 price when I can pick up a M3L in a LR for $400.
Either case, great looking carbine.
Just curious, did you decide on a ML for the asthetics of it because with a piston system, the advatages of a ML gas system is moot.
the T-1 is my new fave optic - i really like it. i wanted a ML piston system because i thought (without thinking much about it) it'd be softer shooting than a carbine piston system, just like a ML DI and carbine DI system. turned out that it is. that was the main factor i considered, not any other piston vs. DI advantage/disadvantage.
i shot my ML piston side by side with a carbine PWS piston carbine system and mine was noticeably softer shooting. the carbine PWS gun had a similar feeling impulse to the LWRC rifle (which i've found a little harsher than a DI), while my ML PWS was the same or softer than a carbine DI rifle. go figure.
maybe it's the added weight of the longer ML piston rod, because it'd seem to me that the amount of gas bled off is the same in a carbine vs. ML piston, since the front components are all the same. mine was the first/only midlength PWS had made at that time, and when todd at PWS test fired it, he himself was also surprised to find noticeably softer shooting.
WHAT?!!! You're finally coming over to the lowly Aimpoint camp? This I've got to see. Whatever happend to the wrong-eye dominant thing? Personally, I like to leave my Aimpoint ON between deployments. I like to see you try that between drills with your 553. :cool:
I have a theory that, if I run it pretty far out, I won't have an issue. I'm willing to try it with a T-1 due to the weight and the fact that it is less like looking through a tube. We'll see how it works, but I'm not selling my Eotech yet! ;)
Wish I could make it to the Paul Howe instructor course with you, but I'm trying to work a deal to fly Paul down to train our boys at our facility (when it gets completed). Hell, if it works out the way I expect it to, I'd like to invite a few PS members down.
I'm going in October instead of May due to a client conflict, so perhaps you can make it. I'm also going to Jeff Gonzales' Carbine Operator Course at Quantico in October, which should be great training, too. Lemme know if you're interested and I'll send you the details.
Don't tell the Mrs. that you're with me, though, or she'll be calling to check on you the whole time! :D
Archangel
01-25-2008, 15:58
I have a theory that, if I run it pretty far out, I won't have an issue. I'm willing to try it with a T-1 due to the weight and the fact that it is less like looking through a tube. We'll see how it works, but I'm not selling my Eotech yet! ;)
I'm going in October instead of May due to a client conflict, so perhaps you can make it. I'm also going to Jeff Gonzales' Carbine Operator Course at Quantico in October, which should be great training, too. Lemme know if you're interested and I'll send you the details.
Don't tell the Mrs. that you're with me, though, or she'll be calling to check on you the whole time! :D
We'll have to see. Hopelly like I said, we're trying to get Paul to come down and train us at our facility. At least that will save me the grief of being on the phone every night trying to convince Mrs. Archangel that I've done no wrong while at the same time the Party Dots in the vehicle back to base were hooping & hollaring at every chick walking down the street. :mad:
Not all of us are young single bucking studs like you anymore. Some of us have crumbsnatchers to feed.
Last I checked, LWRC's price for a conversion was still over $1,000 with my MIL discount and (unless I am misinformed) the LWRC system did not give me an option for gas adjustment when using a suppressor.
Archangel,
You are correct on the gas adjustment. Not to say that it's perfect, but the piston system is self regulating. When using a suppressor, the gas system on any gun, direct impengement (DI) or gas piston (GP), will overcharge gas into the operating parts. This increased blowback goes unregulated in a DI gun causing severe blowback into your operating parts (bolt, carrier, all the way out the ejection port and charging handle) and into your face. The beauty of the GP designs (LWRC, HK, POF and even PWS) is that they all vent at the piston.
The LWRC design is a self regulating/ self cleaning piston cup. This is from Darren at LWRC:
"Pressure builds over microseconds. The spring prevents the system from opening until just enough pressure is built to overcome the mass and all of the action springs. Once it pushes off, 6/10ths of an inch, it vents all excess in a staged vent and dump.
Cyclic rate depends on gas port dimension and the can (suppressor) volume."
Broken down Barney Style: You cannot overcharge the GP in a LWRC rifle......period, either suppressed or un-suppressed. A DI gun will spit carbon all over you and will increase your mean rounds to failure rate.
Adjustable gas systems are a necessity for DI guns to increase reliability and function of the massive differences in ammunition available for commercial shooters. Military uses ammunition that is fairly consistent burning for each application it is designed for. Anyone could tell you that de-linking ammo to use in a magazine or bolt fed platform will change the rates of fire, and accuracy. This gets worse as you step up calibers since the chambering of every weapons platform is different and the tolerances are spread over ammo, chamber and bore characteristics.
There are many on this board better qualified to cover this topic more accurately than I, so I digress. There is no need for an adjustable gas block on GP guns only DI.
Hope you are all still interested, we are still doing conversions, and we are still helping out. The company is setting up for SHOT, and preparing to move into a facility that will help them spit out more rifles per month than they can now. We've reached critical mass on orders vs. production. Demand is great for the system, unfortunately 4 guys on the production line are prematurely balding and getting ulcers trying to get these in the hands of the end users.
In the near future the company will only be providing direct to vendor (distributors, and select companies) sales and is slowly weening off individual sales. The staff that is in place isn't able to conduct follow-ups and answer questions of all of the individuals out there, so we are actually adding the middle men.
FWIW
Archangel
01-28-2008, 15:47
Hope you are all still interested, we are still doing conversions, and we are still helping out. The company is setting up for SHOT, and preparing to move into a facility that will help them spit out more rifles per month than they can now. We've reached critical mass on orders vs. production. Demand is great for the system, unfortunately 4 guys on the production line are prematurely balding and getting ulcers trying to get these in the hands of the end users.
In the near future the company will only be providing direct to vendor (distributors, and select companies) sales and is slowly weening off individual sales. The staff that is in place isn't able to conduct follow-ups and answer questions of all of the individuals out there, so we are actually adding the middle men.
I knew most of that, but you clarified a few things that I wasn't sure of. Thanks for the info.
Since I'm not here on a daily basis, I'm not familiar with everyone. Are you affiliated with LWRC since you mentioned that "we are still doing conversions, and we are still helping out. The company is setting up for SHOT..."
Don't get me wrong, I would love a LWRC upper, or conversion, but I was leaning towards the PWS because it was $400 for the conversion. Now of course that is not the ONLY reason why I would gravitate towards a certain product as I know that you USUALLY get what you pay for, but I also know that just because something costs a lot of money, doesn't make it a quality product. I have owned PWS products in the past and they seem to be a company that provides quality products. I have also spoken to Todd, the owner on several locations so I feel comfortable with PWS as a whole.
I'm waiting for jatx to get his LWRC in so I can fondle it before I make a commitment of my own on something that I don't NEED. :D
Yes I'm affiliated, by genetics. I represent and speak on behalf of the company in a limited capacity. I cannot be paid since I'm active duty military and LWRC is a CAGE Vendor. My brother was the national sales manager and still works that side from time to time when Joe needs help. He's the Demo guy and production manager now. They will be up for SHOT, my brother included.
PWS makes good stuff, but you get what you pay for ;). LWRC is good, if not better than the HK system. It is cheaper by a longshot. They are making headway on quite a few products and I definately see them getting better when they move. I'm partial to it for obvious reasons. I have two systems, one in 5.56mm and the other in 6.8 SPC. I whole heartedly agree that Todd and his products are good.
Tell you what, I've got one as well and if you find yourself around the Fayettenam area and have time, hit me up and I'll be happy to let you punish my gun. You cannot do anything to it that I haven't already done, or have done to one of the demo guns.
We still owe a platform to longrange1947.......we are working on it.
Stop by the booth and say hi to all the LWRC crew if you are gonna be there. I cannot go since I have other issues to address.
I'll be sure to post an announcement as to when and where we'll be doing demo shoots. We are going to be doing another in the Fayetteville area again in the near future. There are a few more vendors in the area looking to be a stocking dealer of LWRC products.
I'll gather demo info and dealer information a few months after SHOT and will PM it to anyone that is interested when I get it.
Archangel
01-29-2008, 10:58
...
jbour13,
Thank you for your offer. Unfortunately, I will not be able to go to the SHOT show this year, but I will send some of my boys to the LWRC booth. As far as Fayettenam, I haven't been back there since I left in 92. I enjoyed my stay there, but can't say that I miss it much. NC is a beautiful state though.
As far as LWRC being better than HK, that's a pretty bold statement. Please enlighten me on why you feel this way. Not trying to stir anything up, I am genuinely curious.
One of our battalions have already gotten the 416 uppers and they only paid around $1200 for each, so costs is not that much of a factor (that is when HK releases the 416 uppers to the US civilian market).