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The Reaper
05-07-2004, 20:28
This pic was taken at Blackwater.

Anyone know what the tiny object is on the roof, just above the third grey panel from the left on the second floor?

How did it get there?

TR

Air.177
05-07-2004, 23:59
I believe that it is a projectile of some type, and how it got there envolves the white sheet hanging between the posts. Now for questions: is it some sort of UEO, or an inert projectile?

GackMan
05-08-2004, 01:55
potato from a potato gun? :D

XspankyX
05-08-2004, 03:07
Sir, I have no clue what object you are talking about? I have stared at that damn picture but can't seem to pinpoint what you are referring to. Could you or someone else highlight the area on the roof?

R/

The Reaper
05-08-2004, 08:12
Air.177: No. Sheet has nothing to do with it being up there. Not UXO.

Gackman: No. Nice try though.

XspankyX: Will try, it is just a speck at this resolution, but it is clearly visible.

TR

Ambush Master
05-08-2004, 12:45
The "Bean Bag" from either a 37 or 40mm ??

The Reaper
05-08-2004, 12:59
Originally posted by Ambush Master
The "Bean Bag" from either a 37 or 40mm ??

Negative.

Another hint, I have gone to max resolution in this pic.

TR

Ambush Master
05-08-2004, 13:01
The "Exit" wound from an AD inside the building ??

The Reaper
05-08-2004, 13:12
Negative, it is a material from the adjacent range.

TR

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 08:50
You guys all stumped, or just need another clue?

TR

NousDefionsDoc
05-09-2004, 08:58
Trident?

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 09:14
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Trident?

Nope.

Hint: The adjacent range was being used by LeMas.

TR

Tuukka
05-09-2004, 09:26
Piece of meat...

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 09:33
BINGO!!

That piece of meat (and several others much larger which rolled off the roof) flew over 50 feet laterally and 20 feet high to land there.

There were a several of chunks that were in the 2-3 pound range lying at the base of the building where they had rolled off the roof.

Thanks for playing. Tuukka, you are very knowledgable and good at this.

Here is a camera positioned to catch one of their earlier shots.

TR

Tuukka
05-09-2004, 11:09
Reaper, having read much conflicting info regarding Le Mas ammunition. What is the real information on them, terminal ballistics wise in the real world.

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 11:46
Originally posted by Tuukka
Reaper, having read much conflicting info regarding Le Mas ammunition. What is the real information on them, terminal ballistics wise in the real world.

I have shot hard armor, soft armor, meat, and live tissue, and have never seen a round fail to perform as advertised, and then some. Friends who have shot live tissue have reported similar experiences.

Informal accuracy testing seems acceptable, function is fine in everything but a Seecamp .32 (which is designed around the Silvertip), pressure signs seem to be normal, muzzle velocity is high, as advertised (but SD for most rounds is very good), hard and soft armor penetration is exceptional, overpenetration through building material seems to be minimal, and tissue destruction is phenomenal.

No, I cannot explain how it works, and as an operator, don't really care.

That is my personal experience with the ammo.

TR

The Reaper
05-10-2004, 18:57
Another photo of the shoot.

Look at the chunks of meat flying around.

TR

The Reaper
05-10-2004, 19:01
This is a piece of armored glass, approximately 1.6" thick, and fairly steeply curved.

There are a number of failed shots from different guns and ammo, center penetration is a LeMas .300 WM, left and right it failed on the curved portion of the glass.

Lower is three LeMas .300 RUM shots that all made it through handily.

TR

shadowflyer
05-10-2004, 19:11
I am sold!!!! That is some impressive stuff right there. If I had some money, LOL I would buy some of that fine ammunition.

APLP
05-10-2004, 21:28
My first post here,

Thanks for the chance to do so on this forum.

While at the Blackwater shootout we had the oppurtunity to film at 100,000 frames per second some of the BMT Land Warfare bullet designs impacting both steel and raw meat. We had hoped that high speed digital frames would provide data which could verify that the APLP (Armor Piercing Limited Penetration) bullets deploy differently when penetrating hard armor than they do when impacting living tissue or warm raw meat.

I will attempt to post the results of the high speed digital pictures tomorrow. What will be seen shows that in fact the BMT rifle rounds do in fact pass through hard steel very much intact, yet when impacting warm raw meat the bullets deploy very dramatically as a fragmenting round. X-ray live tissue impacts likewise have shown controlled depths with much greater than conventional lateral spreads of fragmentation when impacting live tissue. Unlike conventional bullet designs which often fragment due to destabilized trajectories when penetrating tissue, the BMT APLP rounds deploy with violent fragmentation from stabilized trajectories during penetration through warm raw meat or living tissues.

The recently developed third APLP bullet design which recently became operational is called the Land Warfare. The hard armor capability was signifigantly increased in this new design over what the polymer tipped CQB and Urban Warfare provided.

The short barrel 5.56 Land Warfare ammunition in the 1/7 twist barrels provides hard armor penetration capability not achievable from the M-855 Greentip bullets in any barrel length. The 12 inch 5.56 short barreled Land Warfare ammunition will penetrate 3/8" AR-500 with the bullet still intact, yet provide shoulder to shoulder penetration with over 20 inches of lateral fragmentation in hogs that weigh 200 pounds. There are no non-dedicated AP bullet designs that can penetrate as much armor in any of the currently procured 5.56, 7.62x51, or 300Winmag ammunition.

Le Mas Ltd. had the chance to also demonstrate the new .45acp CQB ammunition from a dedicated Glock-21 platform with drop in KKM barrels. The combination of the Glock-21 handgun and 6.5 inch KKM barrel delivers the 85 grain projectile at 2500fps. This handgun platform will defeat more hard and soft armor than any non dedicated AP 5.56 ammunition when fired from 5.56 barrels shorter than the M-4 in the CQB environment.

I will try to post some of this data tomorrow for anyone's review. Again thanks for the oppurtunity to post information here.

Stan Bulmer
Le Mas Ltd.

Air.177
05-11-2004, 16:08
Originally posted by The Reaper
Another photo of the shoot.

Look at the chunks of meat flying around.

TR

What caliber was that?

APLP
05-11-2004, 16:59
Originally posted by Air.177
What caliber was that?

If IIRC the shreads of meat on the camera and in the air were from the .45acp CQB round. The meat particles deposited on the roof from the next door range were from the .308 Land Warfare round.

Both impacts into raw meat were also recorded on high speed digital as were the 3/8' and 1/2" hard armor penetrations from the 5.56 and .308 Land Warfare round.

Air.177
05-11-2004, 17:01
APLP-Thank You

Roguish Lawyer
05-11-2004, 18:40
What happened to those videos that were up on a site (AFJ perhaps?) a while back? They aren't up any more . . .

APLP
05-11-2004, 19:04
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
What happened to those videos that were up on a site (AFJ perhaps?) a while back? They aren't up any more . . .

I was told by AFJ that the video streaming was very expensive to maintain on the link due to the large volume of hits on the video's.
I would expect the new video's will be available from this year's shootout for a period of time. The improved high speed camera used this year was capable of 150,000 frames per second and provides greater detail of the impacts into different mediums. I have seen the new footage of the APLP rounds which document characteristics in both armor and raw meat that were thought impossible by the ballistic experts. The Land Warfare bullet deployments when penetrating warm raw meat are shown to be very similar to the dramatic fragmentation patterns that take place when impacting living tissue. The same digital photography shows the same bullet design penetrating hard armors intact with very little fragmentation.

I was unable to post the digital extracts to this forum today, but hope to within the next couple of days for folks to look at.

The Reaper
05-11-2004, 19:06
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
What happened to those videos that were up on a site (AFJ perhaps?) a while back? They aren't up any more . . .

IIRC, burned too much bandwidth and attracted too many hits.

They just shot new videotape at BW, maybe Stan will put some up or pass the new CD to me and I will get it to the expert for posting, if that is okay with the TS.

I thought that it was a Magnum .30 throwing meat on the roof, I had no idea that the .308 LW would do that. Good stuff!

TR

eggroll
05-25-2004, 00:18
helluva way to tenderize your steak :D
Is this limited availability ammunition?

EGG

The Reaper
05-25-2004, 06:35
As I understand it, the LeMas is Mil/LE only due to its AP capability.

The civilian version is sold by RBCD.

TR