Recession in the USA: Poor and "poor" guys

[frostfire]

With ongoing talks on unions, entitlements, outsourcing etc., I thought these might be of interest



The New York Times, 16 Jan 2008

Blue-Collar Jobs Disappear, Taking Families' Way of Life Along

By Erik Eckholm

Jackson, Ohio - After 30 years at a factory making truck parts, Jeffrey
Evans was earning $14.55 an hour in what he called "one of the better-paying
jobs in the area."

Wearing a Harley-Davidson cap, a bittersweet reminder of crushed dreams, he
recently described how astonished and betrayed he felt when the plant was
shut down in August after a labor dispute. Despite sporadic construction
work, Mr. Evans has seen his income reduced by half.

So he was astonished yet again to find himself, at age 49, selling off his
cherished Harley and most of his apartment furniture and moving in with his
mother.

Middle-aged men moving in with parents, wives taking two jobs, veteran
workers taking overnight shifts at half their former pay, families moving
West - these are signs of the turmoil and stresses emerging in the little
towns and backwoods mobile homes of southeast Ohio, where dozens of
factories and several coal mines have closed over the last decade, and small
businesses are giving way to big-box retailers and fast-food outlets.

Here, where the northern swells of the Appalachians lap the southern fringe
of the Rust Belt, thousands of people who long had tough but sustainable
lives are being wrenched into the working poor.

The region presents an acute example of trends affecting many parts of Ohio,
Michigan and other pockets of the Midwest.

Slammed by the continued decline in the automobile and steel businesses,
Ohio never recovered from the recession of 2001-2, and blue-collar families
who had made it partway up the economic ladder find themselves slipping
back, with chaotic effects on families and dreams.

Throughout the state, the percentage of families living below the poverty
line - just over $20,000 for a family of four last year - rose slightly from
14 percent in 2005 to 16 percent in 2007, one study found. But equally
striking is the rise in younger working families struggling above that line.
The numbers are more dismal in the southeastern Appalachian part of the
state, where 32 percent of families lived below the poverty line in 2007,
according to the study, and 56 percent lived with incomes less than $40,000
for a family of four.

"These younger workers should be the backbone of the economy," said Shiloh
Turner, study director for the Health Foundation of Greater Cincinnati,
which conducted the surveys. But in parts of Ohio, Ms. Turner said, half or
more "are barely making ends meet."

One consequence is an upending of the traditional pattern, in which
middle-aged children take in an elderly parent. As $15-an-hour factory jobs
are replaced by $7- or $8-an-hour retail jobs, more men in their 30s and 40s
are moving in with their parents or grandparents, said Cheryl Thiessen, the
director of Jackson/Vinton Community Action, which runs medical, fuel and
other aid programs in Jackson and Vinton Counties.

Other unemployed or low-wage workers, some with families, find themselves
staying with one relative after another, Ms. Thiessen said, serially wearing
out their welcome.

"A lot of major employers have left, and the town is drying up," Ms.
Thiessen said of Jackson. "We're starting to lose small shops, too -
Hallmark, the jewelry and shoe stores, the movie theater and most of the
grocery stores."

Shari Joos, 45, a married mother of four boys in nearby Wellston, said, "If
you don't work at Wal-Mart, the only job you can get around here is in fast
food."

Between her husband's factory job and her intermittent work, they made
$30,000 a year in the best of times, Mrs. Joos said. Since last fall, when
her husband was laid off by the Merillat cabinet factory, which downsized to
one shift a day from three, keeping anywhere near that income required Mrs.
Joos to take a second job. She works at a school cafeteria each weekday from
9:30 a.m. to 1 p.m and then drives to Wal-Mart, where she relaxes in her car
before starting her 2-to-10 p.m. shift at the deli counter.

Her 20-year-old son went to college for two years, earning an associate
degree in information science, but cannot find any jobs nearby. He still
works at McDonald's and lives at home as he ponders whether to move to a
distant city, as most local college graduates must. Her 22-year-old son
works at Burger King and lives with his grandparents - "that was his way of
moving out," Mrs. Joos said.

In late December her husband landed a new job, driving a fork lift at a
Wal-Mart distribution center, a shift that ends at 2:30 a.m. It pays a
little less than he used to make and is an hour's drive away, so gasoline
soaks up a painful share of his wages.

"We never see each other," Mrs. Joos, 45, said on a recent morning as she
packed a roast beef and cheese sandwich for her evening meal. "We never even
think of taking a vacation."

Luckily they had paid off their mobile home and an addition they built.

As experienced men in this corner of Ohio have found themselves working for
lower wages, others feel they must move.

"I'm ain't going to work for no $8 an hour!" said Lindsey Webb, 52, who,
like Mr. Evans, was one of hundreds laid off when Meridian Automotive
Systems closed its local plant. On a recent night, Mr. Webb was helping out
in a trailer in front of the old factory, a vigil by the United Steelworkers
Union to remind the company of its obligations to former workers.

Mr. Webb, who worked at the plant for 33 years, made more than $16 an hour
doing machine maintenance. Now he is thinking of moving to Arizona, taking
along his elderly father, whom he helps care for.

Darrel McKenzie, 44, was also a maintenance man at Meridian and grossed more
than $60,000 a year. Now he has restarted at the bottom as a union
pipe-fitting apprentice and expects to make $20,000 this year. His family
just "does less," Mr. McKenzie said.

Mr. Evans said that moving back into the home where he grew up, after
decades of independence, was a stinging reminder that "I lost everything I
worked for all my life."

His mother, Shirley Sheline, 73, had worked 28 years at the same auto parts
plant, and shares his dismay. "Can you believe it, a grown man forced to
move back with his mother," she said.

Seeing his desperation last year, she added a room to her house with a
separate door.

"I don't know what I'd have done without my mom," Mr. Evans said. "At least
I can help her, or if I get back on my feet, she can rent it out."

By contrast, selling his Harley, which he would have paid off this year, was
pure torture. He had owned a Harley since he was 20, and weekend cruising
with pals was his favorite recreation.

"The buyer said he wanted to take it away in the back of a trailer," Mr.
Evans recalled, "and I said, 'That won't happen.' "

"Instead I drove it to his house, threw him the keys, came home and got
drunk."

ww.nytimes.com/2008/01/16/us/16ohio.html

-------------------------------------------------
The Sydney Morning Herald, January 18, 2008

Wall St execs collect $US 33 billion in bonuses

The Wall Street gurus who presided over the subprime mortgage crisis
currently shredding global sharemarkets have awarded themselves bonuses
totalling $US33.2 billion (A$38 billion).

In a concession to the crisis - which has forced America's largest banks to
write off billions in bad investments and raise billions more to shore up
their capital reserves - the bonuses were down nearly 5 per cent on the
previous year.

The average bonus of $US180,420 (A$206,088) in 2007 dipped 4.7 per cent from
the previous year, New York state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli said in a
statement today.

The securities industry rewarded $US33.2 billion in bonuses to its New York
City employees, two per cent less than the record $US33.9 billion (A$38.7
billion) in 2006, he said.

The numbers are taken from the seven largest financial firms headquartered
in New York City, which are tracked by the comptroller's office. The firms
are Citigroup, Merrill Lynch, JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearns,
Morgan Stanley and Lehman Brothers.

All except Goldman Sachs, which largely avoided the risky loans, have been
battered by the financial crisis.

While the seven firms earned $US39 billion (A$45 billion) in profits during
the first half of 2007, a 41 per cent gain over the prior year, they lost
$US28 billion ($32 billion) in the third and fourth financial quarters,
DiNapoli said.

Total pretax profits for the seven firms totalled $US11 billion (A$12.6
billion) in 2007, less than one-fifth of the $US60 billion (A$68.5 billion)
record set in 2006, the comptroller said.

Employee compensation, which includes bonuses, consumed 61 per cent of the
firms' revenues in 2007, up from 45 per cent 2006. DiNapoli said this
reflected the firms' efforts to keep high-performing employees.

Those working in mergers and acquisitions and in equities should be rewarded
with bigger bonuses but employees in the fixed-income units that handle
mortgages will be "dramatically lower", the comptroller said.

Compensation experts say those high-performing units will basically
subsidise whatever bonuses are left to give to flagging parts of the banks'
business. Because of the dismal performance of the Wall Street investment
houses, Morgan Stanley chief executive John Mack and Bear Stearns chairman
James Cayne gave up their huge annual bonuses.

Last year, they were paid about $US40 million (A$45.7 million) in
compensation.

AP

http://business.smh.com.au/wall-st-execs-collect-us33b-bonuses/20080118-1mq1.html

[AngelsSix]

I say that the politicans have a lot to do with this.....some of you college educated people <wink, wink, nudge, nudge> can say more about that. The outsourcing of jobs to other countries has made owners in manufacturing rich today. There are no labor unions in some of these countries. Some of them still damn near have slavery going on. The politicians hold stock or have huge vested interest in these companies. Who do you think gives them all that money for their campaigns, etc.?

[Pete]

Since I an self employed I'll tell you the purpose of a business is to make money.

The question to ask is "Why must a manufacturing business move off shore to make money?"

Another question "Coal? You can't move coal off shore, why did that shut down?"

Tax laws and enviro-whackos would be a good place to start.

And now we are thinking, again, of giving tax prebates to people who don't pay taxes. The IRS has become another welfare agency funded by people who who work hard and pay into the system.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Since Tax laws and enviro-whackos would be a good place to start.

Bingo! What makes it worse with the econazis is that most of their followers are completely misinformed about the "scientific facts" in which they claim expertise.

[brownapple]

The outsourcing of jobs to other countries has made owners in manufacturing rich today.


And not outsourcing would have put them out of business.

Pete mentioned environmentalists and taxes. Add labor costs that are excessive and completely non-competitive, regulations that are often idiocy for a given business (but which it must comply with), plus regulations that are put into effect and then "pre-dated" requiring companies to pay fines, etc. for non-compliance before the regulations existed (yes, this has happened in the United States. Cost the paper industry millions of dollars).

The fact is that for many businesses, it is either manufacture overseas or go out of business. There are no other choices.

I watched one of my Uncles try to keep his textile firm in the USA. It failed, and took his home, his livlihood (and those of hundreds of employees), his retirement, etc. with it. IF he'd taken the recommendation to move their manufacturing to Venezuala in the early 70s, he'd likely be a wealthy man. And be employing hundreds of US citizens as well as hundreds in Venezuala.

The less the government has to do with business, the better. They just fuck it up.

[The Reaper]

Got to agree with Pete and GH.

The jobs go overseas for a number of reasons, environmental, legal and cost.

The sooner those people realize that they are living in an area called the Rust Belt for a reason, get their kids educated in something with a future, and move to an area where there are actually jobs being created (mostly non-union, right to work states), the sooner they will recover. The jobs they cited are auto industry or home construction related, both of which are in the tank right now. Wait till the Dem's energy bill kicks in and kills the rest of the US auto industry. If there is a Dem Congress and POTUS, look for new environmental laws to finish off the rest of the US industrial base. We are already sitting on vast quantities of $90 per barrel oil on public land and refusing to drill for it because of a few misguided idiots.

I grew up on a tobacco farm. My father was a laborer who had a high school diploma. His Dad barely got through 8th Grade. I got a few scholarships and went to college for my degree before joining the Army. I was lucky, got some breaks, and made a career out of it. These people could do the same, or get some training in a medical or IT field. I think they share a good bit of the responsibility for thier problems.

I don't like the executive compensation, but if that is what it takes to keep competent leadership, the alternative is to pay very little and let Uncle Wally run the place into the ground through poor management.

TR

[Kyobanim]

The IT field is one I would not recommend anyone in this country to get into. The last 5 years have seen incomes stagnate or go down as jobs are moved overseas. If the jobs don't go overseas, companies bring the labor force here and lower the income.

When people in this country have to reclass to a new field they are almost always told to go IT, you'll make tons of money. So now we have a huge influx of people that have degrees and certifications and no experience. When the average company looks at people for their IT department they look at what they can hire them for. Experience is taking a backseat to labor costs.

I recently was up for a position with a major international resturaunt chain as the SharePoint administrator, a position that would normally pay 70k in the door. I lost it to a guy fresh out of the school I work at for 45k. How do I know this?

I taught the class he learned it in.

[jatx]

The outsourcing of jobs to other countries has made owners in manufacturing rich today.

Hmm, since much if not most of the outsourcing has been done by public companies with millions of shareholders, that makes pretty much everyone with a 401k or IRA an owner, doesn't it?

[Bill Harsey]

Questions:
Is there a point where we outsource manufacturing to other countries that it cause problems of national security for the United States?

I have an answer but will let others speak first.

[The Reaper]

Questions:
Is there a point where we outsource manufacturing to other countries that it cause problems of national security for the United States?

I have an answer but will let others speak first.


That point has already been passed.

TR

[warrottjr]

I recently was up for a position with a major international resturaunt chain as the SharePoint administrator, a position that would normally pay 70k in the door. I lost it to a guy fresh out of the school I work at for 45k.

Add to this the foreign national professionals who come to work over here on H1B visas for a fraction of the prevailing wage.

[Bill Harsey]

That point has already been passed.

TR

Ok, I concede that.
Better question, anyone notice the race to make this worse?

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Questions:
Is there a point where we outsource manufacturing to other countries that it cause problems of national security for the United States?

I have an answer but will let others speak first.

It is not only outsourcing of manufacturing (and I agree with TR) but we have already outsourced some of our military functions from within the DOD to contractors such as Blackwater, and the list goes on. You cannot name one major military piece of equipment that does not have non-US parts or technology in it. Hell Bill, I bet on bad winter days you folks have outsourced the killing of rodents to Snowy Owls that come down from Canada:D

[Roguish Lawyer]

I am disturbed by all of this vitriol towards executive pay at companies with which the complainers have no relationship. If you are a shareholder and you want to complain, fine. If you bought a CDO or some other security and you think you were misled somehow, fine. Otherwise, it is none of your damn business.

Why don't we just kill all of the rich folks and take their money?

[The Reaper]

Why don't we just kill all of the rich folks and take their money?

Damn!

Now why didn't I think of that?

Where do they live and when will they be there with the money?:D

TR

[incommin]

I am disturbed by all of this vitriol towards executive pay at companies with which the complainers have no relationship. If you are a shareholder and you want to complain, fine. If you bought a CDO or some other security and you think you were misled somehow, fine. Otherwise, it is none of your damn business.

Why don't we just kill all of the rich folks and take their money?


That a good idea but we can't do it. I do not understand what raised your ire. Most of the discussion was about businesses moving elsewhere and or closing down and the outsourcing of jobs.....

Jim

[lksteve]

I am disturbed by all of this vitriol towards executive pay at companies with which the complainers have no relationship.
Why don't we just kill all of the rich folks and take their money?Killing all the rich folks deprives folks of a scapegoat...plus someone has to pick up the tax burden...not too mention the fact that it is easier to complain about CEO compensation than it is to review the foundation of our economic system...

[Roguish Lawyer]

Jim --

I was focused on the second article posted by frostfire, and the fact that it followed the first one for the apparent purpose of suggesting a link between the two.

Scott

[Roguish Lawyer]

I think I get extra ornery around the time I have to make my quarterly tax payment to the IRS. :D

[frostfire]

Add to this the foreign national professionals who come to work over here on H1B visas for a fraction of the prevailing wage.

Actually, if you look into the conditions set for granting H1B visas, the employer is required to pay the national/regional standard wage for that particular position. If employers are paying foreign workers less than that standard, they are effectively breaking the law. Not saying that there aren't those that do so, but your statement seems to suggest all H1B holders work for a fraction of the prevailing wage. It's not the same with illegal immigration work.
http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/h-1b.cfm

RL, the articles were put together just for comparison. Comparison of what? Well, just about anything. It's similar to when the dicussion of oil companies profits were brought up. I myself agree with TR. If such compensation is what's required to maintain competency, then so be it.

[Kyobanim]

I think I get extra ornery around the time I have to make my quarterly tax payment to the IRS. :D

A rich person! Line 'em up on the wall!

[warrottjr]

Actually, if you look into the conditions set for granting H1B visas, the employer is required to pay the national/regional standard wage for that particular position.

Good point, but the foreign national professionals are still taking the good jobs and flooding the market which does depress wages.

[SilkRider32]

One problem I see in U.S. industry is the CEO's of the companies making $100 million plus salaries, no one can truely be worth that much money. The rich keep getting richer and the poor poorer. There needs to be some balance to the situation.

Companies have went to other countries with their labor because in this country quite frankly we have priced ourselves out of the market. Everything keeps going up (inflation) and wages are not keeping pace with price of housing, groceries, fuel, and electricity.

Our economic system is living on borrowed time and is going to come to a head very soon. I hope everybody is making prep for the time to come.

[The Reaper]

The rich keep getting richer and the poor poorer.

Not exactly. The vast majority of loss of the middle class in this country has been due to them moving into the upper class.

As far as wages and inflation, this has been a remarkably stable and non-inflationary period in American history. Anyone who lived through the Carter Administration can attest to that.

Inflation in energy prices and to a much lesser extent, food (based on diversion of grain to ethanol production), has, in my opinion, been due to speculation, demand from previously undeveloped markets, and lack of exploration due to NIMBYism and environmental regulations.

The economy, till recently, has been doing very well, despite what the media tells you.

TR

[Pete]

... The rich keep getting richer and the poor poorer......

Because the rich continue to do the things that make them rich and the poor continue to do the things that make them poor.

Drop out of school, have three kids and no man by the time you're 19, drink, smoke and party all night. Yeap, that's the road to a $10,000,000 per year CEO position.

SilkRider keep readin those faxes the DNC sends ya' :D.

Me, I working right now to keep my family and one welfare family afloat.

Pete

[Sdiver]

I hope everybody is making prep for the time to come.

Yep....we're getting the team together.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16918


Now where'd that rich guy get off to ???? :munchin

[Shar]

I was at a book club one night and we were discussing Freakonomics. In all seriousness one of the ladies in the group said that there should be a law limiting the amount of money any one person in the US could make because she didn't like the disparity in wages (CEO salaries were too high). She figured no one really needed to earn more than $100k.

I about choked on my diet Coke.

I asked her if she'd ever read Marx or heard of communism but that generally that experiment hadn't worked out real well in the USSR. She kind of blinked at me and clearly didn't get what I was saying - but she votes! :rolleyes:

[brownapple]

One problem I see in U.S. industry is the CEO's of the companies making $100 million plus salaries, no one can truely be worth that much money.

Who are you to judge?

Bet you wouldn't say no if it was offered to you.

[Guy]

Because the rich continue to do the things that make them rich and the poor continue to do the things that make them poor.

Drop out of school, have three kids and no man by the time you're 19, drink, smoke and party all night. Yeap, that's the road to a $10,000,000 per year CEO position.

SilkRider keep readin those faxes the DNC sends ya' :D.

Me, I working right now to keep my family and one welfare family afloat.

PeteI love it! Wait until I bring this up in class....:lifter

Stay safe.

[Pete]

So just what did Little Tommy get for running around in front of some cameras for a few weeks?

Is he really worth all those millions?

Well, somebody thinks so because they forked it over.

How about those people who play kid's games and make millions each year.

A lot of people get paid a lot of money in this country because they do something others want them to.

So - just who should decide whats fair for them? Us, the government or the people that pay them?

I say the people that pay them.

[incommin]

"Many individuals who are called unfortunate are mislabeled. If someone fails to get an education or learn a skill they are not unfortunate. They are foolish. If someone doesn’t work when they have the ability to work, they are not unfortunate. They are lazy. Anyone who thinks the government owes them a living or will take care of them for an extended period of time is not unfortunate. They are clueless."...... That is part of a paragraph from a manuscript I am working on......

Every business is entitled to pay the boss(s) whatever they think is fit. No worker is entitled to feel the company owes them more just because the boss gets a large paycheck.

Jim

[smp52]

Good point, but the foreign national professionals are still taking the good jobs and flooding the market which does depress wages.

A whole host of the folks here, who're on H1B visas, are from the technical/engineering side of industry. There has been, and continues to be a shortage of these folks. Also, plenty of people who came here on student visas, graduated, found a job, and are looking to stay here opt for the H1B to eventual green card route. They've been educated, indoctrinated, and would like to stay here for their future.

There is always a segment that does not fit the above category, the minority or exception to the fact, but skimming top talent from other nations has significantly benefited the United States in the long run, especially in the high tech field where quality top talent was hard to come by.

If American companies want global reach and desire to stay innovative, they have to get the best people for the job, at the best price. The solution isn't to decrease H1B quotas in favor of domestic talent - it is to educate domestic talent and make them competitive.

Currently, there has been a pull back in some outsourcing on the small-medium business level. Why? The dollar is weak and productivity of outsourced employees still does not match American productivity. So, for such business, they'd rather pay a guy here 80k rather than 2 people in India for 30k because they still get better return on investment from the American employee. This is just one example.

When it comes to the national security/defense side, since the USG is the primary customer, blame on letting the production infrastructure fade away lies squarely on our government and by extension us. Between Congress and the Presidents, we've had incredibly short sighted production/sustainment goals. Then when wars roll around, the government thinks it can turn on the faucet and have everything we need, especially when that production line has been down for 20 years, people who had the skill to make it have long retired or left, and the company itself has changed hands a few times.

Our primary problems and their solutions are right here at home, it's just that us Americans have begun to think along European lines of we're 'entitled' to certain benefits, vs having to earn them through hard work, ingenuity, and innovation. To save a few years of higher unemployment rates while the market corrects itself, forces call for policies that would result in higher unemployment down the line due to socialist/closed policies.

[warrottjr]

To save a few years of higher unemployment rates while the market corrects itself, forces call for policies that would result in higher unemployment down the line due to socialist/closed policies.

Excellent post, but I think your closing comment went over my head. If you have time to elaborate, I would be very interested to hear.

[smp52]

So just what did Little Tommy get for running around in front of some cameras for a few weeks?

Is he really worth all those millions?

Well, somebody thinks so because they forked it over.

How about those people who play kid's games and make millions each year.

A lot of people get paid a lot of money in this country because they do something others want them to.

So - just who should decide whats fair for them? Us, the government or the people that pay them?

I say the people that pay them.

+1

People just don't fork over 100 million or whatever compensation because they felt generous. Considering how cut throat business is, people don't want to fork over an extra penny if they don't want to. If the corporation and its share holders have approved a payout, then they're in their rights to do so.

[smp52]

Excellent post, but I think your closing comment went over my head. If you have time to elaborate, I would be very interested to hear.

Let me provide a scenario:

An industry is facing a correction, lets take the tech sector. In 2001 after the dot com bubble burst, plenty were calling for jobs to stay local. If the government subsidized those corporations, or by law forced them to hire locally, it would still continue to perform ineffectively without a 'shake down'. Global economics and markets are dynamic, but the people who believe they're entitled to a certain job want to keep things static and unchanging. I don't blame them for such a desire, but from a macro economic perspective it's just the way things are. Say their wish is granted and via politics the job is 'saved', not by increasing productivity or growth, and 5 years down the line the company goes under, which resulted in more people becoming unemployed, more people demanding the government take care of them...

[Shar]

Our primary problems and their solutions are right here at home, it's just that us Americans have begun to think along European lines of we're 'entitled' to certain benefits, vs having to earn them through hard work, ingenuity, and innovation.

I absolutely agree with this - Americans are forgetting what a free market is all about and want to see more regulation in order to try and get themselves a piece of the pie they see out there instead of working for it.

It's like Pete said, you can say that crazy Tom doesn't deserve his millions but regardless of what you think, he still gets them because he's found a way to make them. On the other hand, if everyone decided that he wasn't worth it - he probably wouldn't be making the millions anymore. Beauty of a free economy, we get to choose what's worth what. It isn't perfect but its certainly better than the alternative.

Along these lines, my husband is reading this book:
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism: and Other Writings by Max Weber
He is loving it and many of the things he's been telling me about are along these lines and certainly his ideas are "new" as he wrote it in 1905. I plan on reading it when he's finished.

[SilkRider32]

Who are you to judge?

Bet you wouldn't say no if it was offered to you.

If it was offered probably not but I still would not be worth the amount.

The rich do get richer by doing what it takes and the poor get that way because of bad decisions. But what I am saying is the spread is getting way out of proportion.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

But what I am saying is the spread is getting way out of proportion.

And by what measure do you use to establish the correct proportion?

[nmap]

Outsourcing is, as has been mentioned, an effort by business to minimize labor costs. It is necessary for corporate survival – and global labor arbitrage means that, given present conditions, no company can ignore the issue. The problem is, U.S. workers face a higher cost structure, along with higher expectations, than exist elsewhere. In time, market forces (barring outside events) will tend to create equilibrium in labor costs – wages in India, China, and elsewhere will increase, while U.S. wages will decline. The changes are likely to be wrenching for some. There are likely to be political repercussions. If the economy continues to degrade, we’ll get a sampling from the ongoing presidential campaigns.

Where this gets interesting is when we factor in the effects of peak oil. (Yes, I know. Boring, right? But it is my favorite rant.) Energy prices will continue up, creating a downward bias in economic growth. The cost of moving materials and goods will likewise increase. It is possible that costs will mitigate – or perhaps, over the course of decades, sharply reduce global trade. Chronic recession will also have its effects, with interesting effects on the labor market. Interesting is not necessarily good or pleasant. And if we get extended economic hard times, I will be very surprised if the issue is not used by demagogues. That is unlikely to enhance social cohesion. For those not fond of socialism – and I am not – visions of FDR’s administration come to mind.

CEO salaries are a fascinating issue. Let us suppose the owner (not CEO – owner) of a business makes a quick hundred million dollars. His (or her) capital is at risk; he (or she) is generating wealth and making a real contribution to the economy. But what of the CEO of a public corporation? Such salaries are set by the executive compensation committee, which is derived from the board of directors. The shareholders elect the directors.

For those who have not taken a hard look at the process, the individual shareholder can vote for the candidates, or not vote for the candidates – but there is only one slate of candidates. So – if one had an election, and could either vote for a certain female candidate, or not vote for her – but had NO alternative – would that be good? A shareholder can offer an alternative slate of directors – at the cost of millions of dollars. In addition, those who own mutual funds, either directly or indirectly through pension funds, have no vote. I question the compensation of CEOs when the actual owners of the company (the shareholders) have little voice in the selection of the executive and less still in the compensation of same.

As for the national security issue…our economic choices make China stronger. Will China always be a true and trustworthy friend? If not, is it wise to build their industry while eviscerating our own?

[brownapple]

If it was offered probably not but I still would not be worth the amount.

The rich do get richer by doing what it takes and the poor get that way because of bad decisions. But what I am saying is the spread is getting way out of proportion.

The "spread" is based on market conditions. What would you prefer? Government intervention? That would be Socialism/Communism wouldn't it? And exactly how well did that work?

[lksteve]

I think I get extra ornery around the time I have to make my quarterly tax payment to the IRS. @#$%!!! It just occurred to me that I missed my quarterly contribution to the Franchise Tax Board...good thing we lost a little money last year, I guess...:rolleyes:

[lksteve]

...the foreign national professionals are still taking the good jobs and flooding the market which does depress wages.Would you mind a fer instance...? We (the company I work for) have a hard time finding licensed surveyors or civil engineers, regardless of nationality...no American engineer or surveyor capable of passing the examinations has been turned away because of nationality, I can assure you of that...:munchin

[The Reaper]

If it was offered probably not but I still would not be worth the amount.

The rich do get richer by doing what it takes and the poor get that way because of bad decisions. But what I am saying is the spread is getting way out of proportion.

"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!" - Karl Marx, 1875

Right, comrade?

What is the basis for your "spread" calculation?

TR

[SilkRider32]

The "spread" is based on market conditions. What would you prefer? Government intervention? That would be Socialism/Communism wouldn't it? And exactly how well did that work?

There is not a good basis to make a measure of the spread. As inflation drives up prices the spread get wider, that is the market condition. Corporations pay these guys and gals to run their company based on their past performance and experience. They seem to think they are worth it.

I do not seek any government intervention far from that and that would not work not over a long period of time anyway. I enjoy freedom and liberty too much at least what we have left of it.

I am saying as time goes on the spread just keeps getting wider and wider. More or less a question is where does it end, or revert back the other direction? Is there ever going to be a limit? It is just hard for me to imagine someone being worth that much money for their services.

[Surf n Turf]

There is not a good basis to make a measure of the spread.
It is just hard for me to imagine someone being worth that much money for their services.

SilkRider32,
Let me give you a good example from our now so distant past ---
Chrysler was going down the tubes in 1978, and they brought in a new CEO named Lee Iacocca. His first years salary was $1 (plus stock options), the company stock was around $8.00 per share. “ Years of neglecting product lines had resulted in a plummeting market share, dwindling profits, and the inevitability of bankruptcy. Iacocca, ex-president of Ford, was brought in to shore things up. Unable to get private banks to finance a turnaround, he went to President Carter and Congress in search of $1.2 billion in federal loan guarantees to keep the company alive. Congress agreed, and passed the Chrysler Loan Guarantee Act.” (Not something I was in favor of !!!)
At the time Chrysler employed (directly / sub-contractors) about 65,000 good paying (mostly union) jobs. Iacocca’s second year salary was about $30 Million, with additional stock options (a LOT of money in the 80’s). He paid off the government loan 2 years early, and the share prices went to almost $40.

I’m doing most of this from memory (‘cause I bought Chrysler stock at about $9) and did OK when it hit mid 30”s.
My point is – was Iacocca worth the money to “save” 65,000 jobs, and hold the company together, and boost the share price x5 ------- I think he was

SnT

[Plutarch]

These people could do the same, or get some training in a medical or IT field. I think they share a good bit of the responsibility for thier problems.



TR

I agree. Just wanted to point out that military recruitment in southern Ohio often exceeds the goals set. So, many are taking advantage of the opportunities afforded them by the military.

As far as the rest, you are 100% correct. I live in Ohio, and there are jobs in Columbus for anyone who is willing to move north an hour and work.

Both of my parents grew up dirt poor in Ashland, Kentucky ( not far from the region mentioned in the article) . My father entered the Air Force as an E1. He retired as an O5 with three masters degrees, and my mother graduated from college as well.

If you keep your nose clean and work hard, anyone can succeed in this nation.

[GratefulCitizen]

Concerning income disparity:
Good for them (the rich people).

Why would anyone feel sorrow/anger/frustration at another person's success or good fortune?
Such feelings are nothing more than childish narcissism.

Thou shalt not covet.

[brownapple]

It is just hard for me to imagine someone being worth that much money for their services.

The limit is what the market will bear. That's always the deal. As for the line that I quoted, I'd guess you find it hard for you to imagine someone being worth that much money because you can't imagine yourself being worth that much money. The thing is, the people that do those jobs? They can... and they either bring that value or they don't hang around long. Companies expect a return on their investment. Ask IBM shareholders if the money they paid Lou Gerstner was worth it. I think you will find the answer is a resounding yes.

[frostfire]

"Many individuals who are called unfortunate are mislabeled. If someone fails to get an education or learn a skill they are not unfortunate. They are foolish. If someone doesn’t work when they have the ability to work, they are not unfortunate. They are lazy. Anyone who thinks the government owes them a living or will take care of them for an extended period of time is not unfortunate. They are clueless."...... That is part of a paragraph from a manuscript I am working on......


Jim Sir, I know it's unfinished, but can I quote this?

the insight I gain from this site has been endless. On the other hand, I'm viewed more and more by my younger peers as uptight, prude, old, and boring :D

[afchic]

There is not a good basis to make a measure of the spread. As inflation drives up prices the spread get wider, that is the market condition. Corporations pay these guys and gals to run their company based on their past performance and experience. They seem to think they are worth it.

I do not seek any government intervention far from that and that would not work not over a long period of time anyway. I enjoy freedom and liberty too much at least what we have left of it.

I am saying as time goes on the spread just keeps getting wider and wider. More or less a question is where does it end, or revert back the other direction? Is there ever going to be a limit? It is just hard for me to imagine someone being worth that much money for their services.

SilkRider: May I make a suggestion that you go to your local library and check out a book called "Naked Economics" by a guy named Wheelan? It is the best book I have read on Economics, and he does a great job discussing comparative advantage, outsourcing, and most importantly to you judging by your posts, human capital. He suggests that Tom Cruise is worth every penny he earns because of the money he makes for his comapny. All the CEOs are worth their salaries for the same reason. But what is key to Human Capital is the fact that there are very few people in the world that can do these things, and that is why they are worth so much.

I didn't necessarily think that Tony Romo was worth a $65M contravt (but that is only because I have other QB favorites) but the Cowboys think he is worth that money because he is one of only a few people ON THE PLANET that can do what he does, therefore $65M is a drop in the bucket compared to the revenues he brings the organization.

In my opinion, the only people that are decrying the fact that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer are the folks that are not investing in their own Human Capital. Don't want to make minimum wage flipping burgers at Mickey d's, go to college and get an education. Don't want to see your kids flipping burgers, instill in them the notion that they only way they are truly get ahead in this world is to invest in themselves and in their futures. Stop playing "poor pitiful me" as my mom would say, and go out and make something of yourself, because no one is going to do it for you!

[SF18C]

Because the rich continue to do the things that make them rich and the poor continue to do the things that make them poor.

Drop out of school, have three kids and no man by the time you're 19, drink, smoke and party all night. Yeap, that's the road to a $10,000,000 per year CEO position.

Pete

Or you could form a pizza delivery drivers union!

Bottom line in the land of opportunity you have might just have to work at it!!!!

[SilkRider32]

All points are well taken and I am not disagreeing with any of you. It is just hard to comprehend someone making that much money. They are probably worth that much to their companies. They have rescued failing companies and kept top companies on top.

I have no sympathy for those who sit back on the laurels and complain about how they have it. Don't like it, get an education and better yourself it is not my fault or the country's fault you have it bad. You are in charge of your own destiny. It takes guts to open your own business and make a living soley off it. I have a second business but I would not like to have to make it only on it. I went to school and got two degrees. The first did not work out and I went and got a second in the field that I am working now.

LIke I said it is just hard to comprehend that much money, thats all.

[Pete]

....All points are well taken and I am not disagreeing with any of you. It is just hard to comprehend someone making that much money........LIke I said it is just hard to comprehend that much money, thats all.

And that's why Libs continue to advance their agenda. If they can convince you that top CEOs are not worth the pay just think what the weak minded are thinking.

I threw that Tom Cruise stuff in for some thought. Ever notice how when libs are talking about "the evil rich" and people being not worth the pay they never mention movie stars and super jocks? Just CEOs.

[warrottjr]

Would you mind a fer instance...? We (the company I work for) have a hard time finding licensed surveyors or civil engineers, regardless of nationality...no American engineer or surveyor capable of passing the examinations has been turned away because of nationality, I can assure you of that...:munchin

http://www.h1b.info/

"The H-1B visa program allows American companies and universities to hire foreign scientists, engineers and programmers. Unfortunately, H-1B law lacks adequate safeguards to protect US workers from being displaced and is abused to provide cheap labor. Although requirements say employers must pay the 'prevailing wage,' numerous loopholes mean there is little real-world wage protection for either US citizens or the H-1B guest workers. Moreover, employers almost never have to certify that no qualified U.S. workers are available before hiring an H-1B. Certification is nearly an automatic rubber stamp.

"Congress needs to increase domestic worker safeguards, tell the Department of Labor to stop rubberstamping H-1B applications, and resist pressure from corporate lobbyists to double the annual H-1B visa limit."

[jatx]

I threw that Tom Cruise stuff in for some thought. Ever notice how when libs are talking about "the evil rich" and people being not worth the pay they never mention movie stars and super jocks? Just CEOs.

It's easy to slam CEOs - they're busy at work and are not inclined to get into it with some political windbag!

[echoes]

http://www.h1b.info/

"Unfortunately, H-1B law lacks adequate safeguards to protect US workers from being displaced and is abused to provide cheap labor."

I might have agreed with this blanket statement at one point in life...until put in the position of employer.

Case in point: In the health care industry, there is a shortage of quality skilled LPN's, CNA's, etc..., for long term care. Trust me on this. After this specific need arose here in my AO, I was amazed at the work ethic of some foreign applicants for these jobs. Compared with what we had to work with before, the quality and dedication of some of these folks, to fill these positions, was outstanding.

I commend them for legally wanting to better not only their own situations, but others' as well.

Just my .02

Holly

[SilkRider32]

And that's why Libs continue to advance their agenda. If they can convince you that top CEOs are not worth the pay just think what the weak minded are thinking.

I threw that Tom Cruise stuff in for some thought. Ever notice how when libs are talking about "the evil rich" and people being not worth the pay they never mention movie stars and super jocks? Just CEOs.

Actors and sports stars don't have an effect on our pay but CEO's do. That means something to the worker. They (liberals) can get to a disgruntled worker easier by talking about the one who is signing the checks. I am not disgruntled or liberal actually far from it. It is just hard to fathom that much money never having made it myself.

[warrottjr]

I might have agreed with this blanket statement at one point in life...until put in the position of employer.

Case in point: In the health care industry, there is a shortage of quality skilled LPN's, CNA's, etc..., for long term care. Trust me on this. After this specific need arose here in my AO, I was amazed at the work ethic of some foreign applicants for these jobs. Compared with what we had to work with before, the quality and dedication of some of these folks, to fill these positions, was outstanding.

I commend them for legally wanting to better not only their own situations, but others' as well.

Just my .02

Holly

I realize there may be exceptions, but the mainstream of H1B visas are monopolized by the following firms:

1. Enterprise Business Solutions, Inc.
2. Satyam Computer Services, Ltd.
3. Microsoft Corporation
4. Patni Computer Systems, Inc.
5. Cisco Systems Inc.
6. Oracle Corporation
7. IBM Corporation
8. Intel Corporation
9. Sun Microsystems Inc.
10. Motorola, Inc.

and it is there that the abuses prevail.

[Guy]

And that's why Libs continue to advance their agenda. If they can convince you that top CEOs are not worth the pay just think what the weak minded are thinking.

I threw that Tom Cruise stuff in for some thought. Ever notice how when libs are talking about "the evil rich" and people being not worth the pay they never mention movie stars and super jocks? Just CEOs.The current crop of college professors should be ashamed of themselves also....

Professor..."If you get a four year degree and make $50K/yr; in twenty years you would have made a million dollars!"

Me..."Sir, IMHO! I think your aspirations for folks suck. If you aspire to earning $50K/yr with a four year degree. You can skip college and come work for me."

Professor..."Guy, what do you think about all the prisons we (CA) are building?"

Me..."If there was no market for the construction of prisons, they wouldn't build them. BTW...you have any leads on the companies that's doing the construction? You keep passing these assinine laws, the demand for prisons will not subside any time soon.":cool:


Stay safe.

[echoes]

Warrottjr,

I am speaking to the mentality of fear in the post. Fear that because we have LEGAL professional foreign workers here in the US, that they are creating a disadvantage for professional American workers?

Since the title of this thread is "Recession in the USA," am simply pointing out that there are a million excuses for the poor getting poorer...and this type of thinking is just one more, IMVHO.

Holly

[warrottjr]

Warrottjr,

I am speaking to the mentality of fear in the post. Fear that because we have LEGAL professional foreign workers here in the US, that they are creating a disadvantage for professional American workers?

Since the title of this thread is "Recession in the USA," am simply pointing out that there are a million excuses for the poor getting poorer...and this type of thinking is just one more, IMVHO.

Holly

"In order to hire H-1B foreign workers, sponsoring employers must file a Labor Condition Application (LCA) with the US Department of Labor, and then submit additional paperwork and a $130 application fee to the INS.

"In the LCA, employers must attest that they are paying the H-1B worker the prevailing wage and cite the wage source. Additionally, the employer must keep a public file that matches the job responsibilities to the pay grade, and it's your right to inspect the file during normal business hours. Supplying bogus wage data, and falsifying or failing to provide the supporting documentation are common methods of fraud. Numerous academic and INS studies have shown that H-1B workers typically earn between 20 and 33% less even though they're supposed to receive the prevailing wage."

And that's where a lot of the good jobs in the U.S. are going, due to a lack of government enforcement of regulations that are supposed to keep the domestic job market on a level playing field.

[incommin]

Jim Sir, I know it's unfinished, but can I quote this?

the insight I gain from this site has been endless. On the other hand, I'm viewed more and more by my younger peers as uptight, prude, old, and boring :D


You may.

Jim Jackson

[brownapple]

And that's where a lot of the good jobs in the U.S. are going, due to a lack of government enforcement of regulations that are supposed to keep the domestic job market on a level playing field.

Government regulations maintain a level playing field? What fantasy world are you in? Doesn't happen. Can't happen. Completely ridiculous concept.

American workers want to compete with foreign workers? It's simple. Work for what they do or provide a better product/quality of work than they do.

The person who most affects what you make? Is you. When you recognize that and accept it, instead of blaming others, then you can start on your way to making millions (if that is what you truly desire).

[warrottjr]

Government regulations maintain a level playing field? What fantasy world are you in? Doesn't happen. Can't happen. Completely ridiculous concept.

American workers want to compete with foreign workers? It's simple. Work for what they do or provide a better product/quality of work than they do.

The person who most affects what you make? Is you. When you recognize that and accept it, instead of blaming others, then you can start on your way to making millions (if that is what you truly desire).

Do you advocate abolishing the Dept. of Labor and the INS, and opening the borders?

[brownapple]

Do you advocate abolishing the Dept. of Labor and the INS, and opening the borders?

Department of Labor? Hell, yes. Nothing but a waste of money.

INS (or whatever it is called today) is not primarily about employment issues, so knock off the red herrings.

Now, would you like to know why government regulations can't do what you would like them to?

Because markets are in constant flux. Change is normal. The exact opposite of the norm for bureaucracy. Regulations are unable to keep up with the rate of change that is normal for market forces, and so instead of leveling the field, they consistently make the problem worse (by not allowing free market forces, which do compensate quickly for market changes, to work).

[warrottjr]

Department of Labor? Hell, yes. Nothing but a waste of money.

INS (or whatever it is called today) is not primarily about employment issues, so knock off the red herrings.

Now, would you like to know why government regulations can't do what you would like them to?

Because markets are in constant flux. Change is normal. The exact opposite of the norm for bureaucracy. Regulations are unable to keep up with the rate of change that is normal for market forces, and so instead of leveling the field, they consistently make the problem worse (by not allowing free market forces, which do compensate quickly for market changes, to work).

Do you think Anti-Trust regulations are necessary?

[brownapple]

Do you think Anti-Trust regulations are necessary?

Anti-trust isn't a function of the Department of Labor. It's a function of the Department of Justice.

Oh, and if you bother to look at the list you posted regarding H-1B Visas and look at when the regulations regarding those Visas were written, you'll see exactly what I described in terms of response is exactly why those Corporations are on that list (nothing to do with abuse, everything to do with a system that doesn't make sense).

[warrottjr]

Anti-trust isn't a function of the Department of Labor. It's a function of the Department of Justice.

Oh, and if you bother to look at the list you posted regarding H-1B Visas and look at when the regulations regarding those Visas were written, you'll see exactly what I described in terms of response is exactly why those Corporations are on that list (nothing to do with abuse, everything to do with a system that doesn't make sense).

Should we return to the early days of the Industrial Revolution where there was no worker protection?

[brownapple]

Should we return to the early days of the Industrial Revolution where there was no worker protection?

Are you unable to look out for yourself?

And to return to those days, we'd have to eliminate the internet, all modern communications, etc.

That's another red herring.

[warrottjr]

Are you unable to look out for yourself?

And to return to those days, we'd have to eliminate the internet, all modern communications, etc.

That's another red herring.

Are you an anarchist?

[Dad]

We began deregulating the mortgage market and it worked out real well. An argument against regulation is it hurts business Business will act responsibly because it is in their interest to do so. I don't think historically that point can be made. Regulations generally come about to correct improper conduct--not always but usually. Sometimes they come about to protect the politically connected. I am a lifelong fiscal conservative and I would maintain the greed and open flaunting of laws and regulations we've seen the last few years has cost a lot more than over regulation. Just my two pennies

[vsvo]

I worked for an internet startup at the peak of the dot-com boom. I left a high-paying job to chase the wave. It was high-risk, high-reward. When the bubble burst, the company went under and I got laid off, fired, whatever you want to call it. This was after I had earned undergraduate and graduate diplomas which hang oh-so-prominently on my love-me wall. I was very disoriented for a while, but I never thought about being bitter. Fortunately, my wife and my family carried my sorry ass until I could get back on my feet again.

So having seen a little bit of the rewards, as well as the consequences when risk prevails (every time I think about that time, I hear James Earl Jones’ voice, “…some days, the bear eats you.”), I still believe in the free market economy. The company failed because it deserved to fail. The fundamentals were so out of whack, and the froth was churning so high. As brutal as it was, the market corrected. I never thought it would happen to me, but in the back of my mind, I knew it was possible. Having been through that, I would still go with a system that offers nearly limitless upside potential.

With regards to executive compensation, when the scheme is designed correctly and the executive performs, shareholders should be happy. Problems arise when guys bail out of poorly performing companies with golden parachutes. Then it looks less like incentive compensation. As noted though, at the end of the day, you are worth whatever someone is willing to pay you.

[incommin]

"As noted though, at the end of the day, you are worth whatever someone is willing to pay you."

At the end of the day that is all anything is worth.


Jim

[echoes]

I absolutely agree with this - Americans are forgetting what a free market is all about and want to see more regulation in order to try and get themselves a piece of the pie they see out there instead of working for it.

It's like Pete said, you can say that crazy Tom doesn't deserve his millions but regardless of what you think, he still gets them because he's found a way to make them. On the other hand, if everyone decided that he wasn't worth it - he probably wouldn't be making the millions anymore. Beauty of a free economy, we get to choose what's worth what. It isn't perfect but its certainly better than the alternative.

Shar,

Missed this post the first time around, but you hit the nail on the head, IMHO.

warrottjr,

The above post may help to clear the clouds away for you, and enlighten the point I was attempting to make. :munchin

Someone once told me, "Though it may be an uphill journey, if you learn something valuable, it will be worth it."

(It is why I enjoy this site so much...all the things that can be learned.)

My .02,
Holly

[Retired W4]

Before my former boss passed away, the company he started in the 80's had exceeded $2 billion in annual revenues. He started with a leveraged buy out, and within a few years the company was in the black (and he owned most of the company). This guy was a chemical engineer with business savvy that was unbelievable. He sat on the boards of several other large corporations because he was so....SMART. There are many millionaires in the Atlanta area today because they worked for or with him back in the day.

He was a self made man, who enlisted in the Army during the Korean War (ASA). I can't say as much for Lee Iacocca, though.

I would say this country is a better place because of people like my former boss. Those who would complain about his financial success and bemoan their own failings can crawl back under their rock.

[mugwump]

Are you an anarchist?

Are you a troll?

I'll bet that H1Bs have created more jobs in this country -- by an order of magnitude -- than they've 'taken' from citizens. "Brain drain" from H1Bs' countries of origin is correctly perceived as a huge strategic loss. The Indian/Chinese/European governments are doing everything they can to keep these guys home or get them to come back. If we let demagogues strip this resource out of our universities and businesses, we will be much the poorer for it.

I hire American whenever I can -- and I had to hire that way until recently when I got out of all of my government contracts -- but I'll hire whomever it takes to get the job done. And when that guy I hire was sharing a textbook with four other students and his turn was from 0100 to 0500 each night, he tends to be focused let's say. And he gets every dime that his American co-workers receive.

[warrottjr]

warrottjr,

The above post may help to clear the clouds away for you, and enlighten the point I was attempting to make.

My .02,
Holly

That may work well for Hollywood movie stars and Fortune 500 CEO's, but salaries, benefits and perks for the majority of us are not as negotiable.

[Surf n Turf]

"

And that's where a lot of the good jobs in the U.S. are going, due to a lack of government enforcement of regulations that are supposed to keep the domestic job market on a level playing field.

Warrottjr,
Before I retired I managed a large department for one of the companies on your H1B list.
Let me clarify several things to you:
1. Compensation was based on experience, education, and competence. H1B employees were compensated at the same level as their American Counterparts.
2. H1B employees (to a person) had an excellent work ethic, unlike some of their native counterparts. They would go the extra mile, and do what needed to get the job done.
3. When I left, a former H1B holder, who now has his greencard was my replacement, and I recommended him for the job --- because he earned it !!!
Business is not the Red Cross – Business strategy is to maximize profit and grow to satisfy their shareholders (who own the corporation).
I have heard ALL the arguments against H1B workers, but the fact is WE NEED THEM, as the American Education System does not turn out enough Engineers, Scientists, DBA’s or “Hands-on” Systems professionals (to name a few or our internal shortcomings).
Have a nice day

SnT

[echoes]

That may work well for Hollywood movie stars and Fortune 500 CEO's, but salaries, benefits and perks for the majority of us are not as negotiable.

I am just a guest on this site, so I will not get into a verbal contest with you.

My applologies to the QP's, for this post being off topic.

Holly

[Guy]

That may work well for Hollywood movie stars and Fortune 500 CEO's, but salaries, benefits and perks for the majority of us are not as negotiable.:confused::munchin

Stay safe.

[lksteve]

That may work well for Hollywood movie stars and Fortune 500 CEO's, but salaries, benefits and perks for the majority of us are not as negotiable.Why not? I have asked for more dead presidents and when the powers that be said "no", I went somewhere else...of course, perhaps it is because I've invested time and effort into achieving licenses in my professions and I am pretty good at what I do...

[brownapple]

Are you an anarchist?

Nope. libertarian.

[brownapple]

That may work well for Hollywood movie stars and Fortune 500 CEO's, but salaries, benefits and perks for the majority of us are not as negotiable.

Bullshit. In the private sector, everything is negotiable. If you are smart enough to do so.

[echoes]

Bullshit. In the private sector, everything is negotiable. If you are smart enough to do so.

GH,

Do not believe it could be better stated, Sir!

[warrottjr]

Bullshit. In the private sector, everything is negotiable. If you are smart enough to do so.

The vast majority of compensation packages in the private sector are determined by management policy, except for collective bargaining agreements.

[Roguish Lawyer]

The vast majority of compensation packages in the private sector are determined by management policy, except for collective bargaining agreements.

LOL, so compensation packages are determined solely by demand, and not by supply, eh? And only on a company-by-company basis?

Son, I am quite curious what you are presently doing for a living, and how you obtained your current employment. Do tell, please. :munchin

[echoes]

The vast majority of compensation packages in the private sector are determined by management policy, except for collective bargaining agreements.

GreenHat is 100% correct...The time is now to listen and learn...:lifter

[brownapple]

The vast majority of compensation packages in the private sector are determined by management policy, except for collective bargaining agreements.

LMAO

What do you do? Besides whine?

[warrottjr]

LOL, so compensation packages are determined solely by demand, and not by supply, eh? And only on a company-by-company basis?

Pretty much, for the most part.

[smp52]

I'll bet that H1Bs have created more jobs in this country -- by an order of magnitude -- than they've 'taken' from citizens. "Brain drain" from H1Bs' countries of origin is correctly perceived as a huge strategic loss. The Indian/Chinese/European governments are doing everything they can to keep these guys home or get them to come back. If we let demagogues strip this resource out of our universities and businesses, we will be much the poorer for it.

I agree 100%.

The strategic point is what many overlook. I will give examples from India because that's what I'm familiar with. Take the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) for example: It was established to develop top notch scientific talent in the 1950s for India. However, due to India's own SOCIALIST policies, many of the top talent took their FREE government education and brought it to the United States. It is incredibly expensive to educate top engineering, medicine, and other technical science students.

Additionally, international students pay full fees at colleges. Sure, they get stipends, research assistantships, and teaching assistantships, but those are paid for by some hard work under professors, who teach and take credit. It's a fair trade for the services each provides. It also hasn't prevented American students from getting to grad school. For engineering, I had above average grades, though not top notch. I still managed to get into a decent school and achieve my goals.

If anyone is more concerned about true unemployment rates, not just a drop in the bucket (which the H1B amounts to for the approximately 15 million or 5% of the nation's unemployed), then the liberal left should worry about the ILLEGAL immigrants. But hey, why worry about that, when you can handicap American business even more, by preventing them from snatching top talent away from their multinational competitors. It isn't like labor unions haven't squashed enough competition already. The European 'tight' immigration policies have not reduced their local unemployment rates nor have their unions reduced those rates.

We didn't get ahead in the world by the protectionist measures used by other countries. Rather, history and above all empirical information suggests the very opposite. People made fun of Milton Friedman back in the day, where he was outnumbered by folks from the London School of Economics type of thought (leftist). The long run has proven the Chicago Economics school's theories to be far more accurate.

If anything, someone like myself and my friends (who were unemployed for a period during the 2002-2003 time frame) would gripe against H1B type employment. We don't - because if one H1B engineer can ADD VALUE to the corporation, there is a strong possibility that it will create more opportunity. A job isn't a static quantity. Growth requires nourishment, for white collar (EDIT: frankly any) jobs that means the best quality talent one can find at the market price.

[warrottjr]

As for "leveling the playing field," that's impossible. Capitalism is based on competition. Anytime societies try to "enforce equality," they end up with neither freedom nor equality.

I think you're taking it out of context. We're talking about employers who have certified to the government that the domestic supply of certain labor specialties is exhausted and promise to pay foreign nationals equal pay for the same work. The problem is fraud and broken promises.

[brownapple]

I think you're taking it out of context. We're talking about employers who have certified to the government that the domestic supply of certain labor specialties is exhausted and promise to pay foreign nationals equal pay for the same work. The problem is fraud and broken promises.

I think you're clueless about business and economics. Once again, what do you do?

Given that you've focused on H1Bs in the IT sector, I might think you work in that field.

Well, I can tell you for a fact that salaries in the IT field are highly negotiable. I can point out specific individuals (including my brother and a number of retired vets) who demonstrate that is true, and who have no problem with getting the employment package they want. A couple of them even work for some of the companies you listed.

Of course, they are very good at what they do and actually understand how to maximize their value to an employer and how to negotiate.

My bet is that you don't know how to do any of those things.

[Guy]

The problem is fraud and broken promises.GUARANTEE!?!?!?:munchin

Stay safe.

[warrottjr]

If anyone is more concerned about true unemployment rates, not just a drop in the bucket (which the H1B amounts to for the approximately 15 million or 5% of the nation's unemployed), then the liberal left should worry about the ILLEGAL immigrants.

The H1B's amount to more than 5% of the engineering, scientific and programming jobs.

H1B abuse comes under the general heading of illegal immigration, and the employers who abuse H1B's are guilty of fraud, deception and theft.

[brownapple]

The H1B's amount to more than 5% of the engineering, scientific and programming jobs.

H1B abuse comes under the general heading of illegal immigration, and the employers who abuse H1B's are guilty of fraud, deception and theft.

So, where are all the DOJ cases in this area?

Oh, there aren't any? Maybe that is because H1B quotas (and yes, they are quotas) are set years before they go into effect, and actually make perfect sense when the quotas were set. Only problem is that government isn't actually a very responsive entity and by the time the quotas actually are implemented, they are well out of date. But they still are the regulation.

Not a lawyer either, are you?

[warrottjr]

So, where are all the DOJ cases in this area?

Debunking the Myth of a Desparate Software Labor Shortage (http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html)

"Another invited article was the relation of H-1B to age discrimination in the computer industry, published in the California Labor and Employment Law Review, a publication of the California State Bar Association. Many people, even critics of the H-1B program, are unaware of the fact that one of the primary reasons employers like H-1B is that it broadens the young segment of the labor pool, enabling employers to avoid hiring the 45-year-old, or for that matter, 35-year-old, programmers and engineers."

[brownapple]

Gee, a collection of articles by one guy regarding his opinion on a subject.

No cases.

Do you bother to read the stuff you post?

[warrottjr]

Gee, a collection of articles by one guy regarding his opinion on a subject.

Job Destruction Directory (http://www.zazona.com/)

Guest-Worker Information Center - Get the facts on foreign worker visas. This is the most comprehensive online library on nonimmigrant work visas (NIVs) as well as letters of opinion and horror stories about employment issues.

[brownapple]

More opinions. Arguably propaganda (the name of the site doesn't exactly lead one to believe that is an academic issue).

And still won't tell us what you do....

[dmgedgoods]

#

[Paste Eater]

I live in Chillicothe, Ohio.

Jackson is about 20 minutes drive, if that, from town here. There are a lot of things one doesn't realize or fully see the scale of until one leaves home. As for myself leaving home for college at The Ohio State University didn't figure to be as big of a deal for me as it may be for most people starting college in my area, but coming home was.

When I got to school I didn't realize how bad off southern ohio really is. Let's put it this way. When I was sitting in my 500 level sociology class and the professor popped in a video about poverty, class, and race. One of the examples of a poor lower class family was from a town 15 minutes to the south of my home town of Chillicothe. The family featured lived in a mobile home, and the mother of the two boys walked 30 minutes to work at burger king every day, then walked home, rain or shine.

After class was over the professor asked the class (which reminds me, A.J. Hawk current Packers linebacker and former Buckeye football star sat a seat to my left, well 2 seats because he took up that many.) how many of us were from "Appalachia" Myself and one other person out of probably 60+ raised our hands. She then asked where, and I told her that I was from the same area. Immediately I was asked if I was on scholarship or given special funds from a poverty stricken area (which I am not, my family is very fortunate).


My point with this whole post is pretty simple. When I finished with college, I headed home. After that day of class I never viewed home the same again. I realized that seeing homes with dirt floors, going to grade school with kids who can't afford socks, or under wear or to bathe because they don't have running water wasn't normal. Nothing comes to this area, no business, factories close down, jobs are lost by the hundreds and thousands. There is absolutely no reason for any company to locate their business here. Go look at a map of southern ohio, sans the Cincinatti area. Tell me how many Interstates run through it.

I'm all for picking your ass up off the ground and making something of yourself. Everyone in this great country has that chance to an extent. I hate welfare, I hate slackers, and people who quit. But this area, every year something happens. I'm working part time loss prevention for a retail store with an ex 82nd Airborne guy, who left the military in hopes of a 67,000 dollar a year job with a factory in Chillicothe. A financial panic occured when gas prices sky rocketed, and guess what. 500 jobs this area depends on, gone. Same with countless other factory jobs around here.


When people complain about not having a job around here, they're not just "being lazy." The jobs don't exsist. Not the kind of jobs where you can work and feed your family. So get two jobs right? Wrong, good luck finding an employer around here who will work with your schedule and understand your situation. It's the real world and the jobs are demanded. If you can't work certain times, or you don't know the guy hiring personally, good luck chuck, better find somewhere else to work.

The only thing I see saving lives around here is school. The big joke about this area is no one ever leaves. Dozens of my friends go to school for a year, and bam they're right back home at community college, settling for less. Often though, kids get out, and that's the only positive thing for the area.

God bless my home town, I love it to death, the land is beautiful, and the culture is great. But God damn the real world sometimes, because it's rough on some of America's finest citizens.



*apologies for the rant... it's tough to understand if you're not from here.

[Paste Eater]

These people could do the same, or get some training in a medical or IT field. I think they share a good bit of the responsibility for thier problems.

TR


That goes on a lot around here actually. Adena Medical Center in Ross County (where Chillicothe is located). Attracts a lot of works from Jackson, Vinton, and Pike counties. Ohio University- Chillicothe has several full 4 year degree programs dealing with the medical profession, mainly nursing. IT field jobs around here aren't too common, so getting a degree around here doesn't do dick for that.

People don't really understand the cultural reasons behind these problems either. Someone also mentioned moving to a distant city or getting out of the area. People here are Scottish, English, Irish, Germans, etc. They're clan people. You don't get many eastern Europeans or Italian/Sicilians in this area. It's not uncommon to go up a road and every mailbox on the hill has the same last name. What you don't understand is, generations lives and die in these hills on the same land decade after decade. It sounds silly, and it really is. Everyone's related to someone down here. My earlier post about people coming back from college after a year or a few quarters has a lot to do with family. They just don't want to be away from their ENTIRE family.

Again, it's weird, maybe even a bit silly, but that's the way the majority of the culture is around here. I call it clan based culture.

For example I dated a girl from home while I was at school at OSU. Her mother's biggest worry was her leaving home to go to cosmotology school in Columbus. Why was she worried? Because she wouldn't be home to go to the same church as the rest of her family, or to be home to see her mom. Clan culture, it's sad.

[Paste Eater]

People don't realize how lucky they are to be born in this country, being we're like 5% of the population. Being born in America is like winning the lottery!

well said

[The Reaper]

Only in America, can a poor oppressed downtrodden person get government housing, free food, clean running water with indoor plumbing, free electricity 24/7, while owning a late model car with thousands of dollars worth of rims and electronics, several color TVs, a high end stereo, a fridge, a microwave, a washer and dryer, a cell phone, thousands of dollars worth of jewelry, and a $100 a day drug habit.

In most countries, they would be considered wealthy.

TR

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Only in America, can a poor oppressed downtrodden person get government housing, free food, clean running water with indoor plumbing, free electricity 24/7, while owning a late model car with thousands of dollars worth of rims qand electronics, several TVs, a high end stereo, a fridge, a microwave, a washer and dryer, a cell phone, thousands of dollars worth of jewelry, and a $100 a day drug habit.

In most countries, they would be considered wealthy.

TR

Throw in free public education, free health-care by using the emergency rooms at other individuals expense, free clothing from various sources, and all the pity they can handle from the liberal establishment.

[Surf n Turf]

I live in Chillicothe, Ohio.
Nothing comes to this area, no business, factories close down, jobs are lost by the hundreds and thousands. There is absolutely no reason for any company to locate their business here.
But this area, every year something happens. ----- A financial panic occured when gas prices sky rocketed, and guess what. 500 jobs this area depends on, gone. Same with countless other factory jobs around here.
The jobs don't exsist. Not the kind of jobs where you can work and feed your family. ---- better find somewhere else to work.
God bless my home town, I love it to death, the land is beautiful, and the culture is great. But God damn the real world sometimes, because it's rough on some of America's finest citizens.
.

Paste Eater,
America is the “land of opportunity” – but only if you make yourself available for the opportunity. Not to pick on you – nor lecture -- but
Our founding fathers established a Republic (not a democracy), with power given to the people thru their State Legislatures. They envisioned a nation where if you didn’t like your local government, taxes, job, or situation – YOU COULD MOVE and improve your lot in life.
My Family moved here from Scotland, then to Cleveland, then to Arizona. And I have moved my family six (6) times for a better life. We are Clannish also, but not blind --- if there ain’t no jobs in some place, and I have to work, I move !!!

SnT

[smp52]

The H1B's amount to more than 5% of the engineering, scientific and programming jobs.

H1B abuse comes under the general heading of illegal immigration, and the employers who abuse H1B's are guilty of fraud, deception and theft.

So, if your core issue is employers short-changing H1Bs, then the solution is to stop all H1B immigration?

Job Destruction Directory

Guest-Worker Information Center - Get the facts on foreign worker visas. This is the most comprehensive online library on nonimmigrant work visas (NIVs) as well as letters of opinion and horror stories about employment issues.

The website you linked to says the following:
"NINE OUT OF EVERY 10 NEW COMPUTER/IT JOBS IN 2001 WERE FILLED BY H-1B VISA HOLDERS"

What is the definition of a "new job" and how can one verify that those "new jobs" were specifically filled by H1Bs? Unless you can verify this, the above statement is a heavily biased opinion, not a fact.

I graduated in 2001 from college with my undergraduate degree. Almost all the kids I knew got jobs. I had three offers myself, which I didn't take and went to graduate school. Many of my friends were in CS/CE/EE. Heck, even the guy with the low 2.5 GPA got a job. 2002 is when shit hit the fan. That summer is when people I knew who'd recently graduated had a tough time finding a job or got laid off as whole divisions within companies got downsized. All eventually found a job though, including myself. Defense corporations and government have been hiring aggressively due to the war since 2001 and filling the pipeline for baby boomer retirements. One needs to look at the big picture and adapt.

Also from the website:
If it wasn't for H-1B the unemployment rate for Computer/IT workers would be 0%.

This is inaccurate as well as the above assumes had it not been for H1Bs, corporations would have automatically forked that job over to an American, which isn't true. While some corporations may, others that operate on quality before quantity won't bring just anyone in if they can't find the right person. I'd rather work harder shorthanded rather than bringing in an employee that doesn't meet the standards.

The National Science Foundation has statistics on recent college graduates in Science and Engineering. (http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf06329/tables.htm) From the numbers, majority seem to find employment. (http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf06329/pdf/tab37.pdf)

[dmgedgoods]

#

[Tubbs]

Sorry, I'm jumping in on this a little bit late, but I'd just like to set the record straight about the distribution of "wealth" in America.
SILKRIDER32, I believe the proper term for what you keep decrying in America is social stratification. Yes it is real, however it is a world wide phenomenon, not something that is unique to America. As far as the poor, well your beliefs on the distribtuition of wealth are somewhat more skewed.

According to Gilbert and Kahl, there are six contemporary American social classes. These classes are defined by the education, occupation and income of the individuals in them

The highest class is the Capitalists. They have achieved prestigious university educations, they are generally investors and top business executives although few if any really need to work and their incomes will be seven figures a year or higher. They comprise approximately 1% of the population. Some sociologists believe that they control 90% of the wealth and resources.
The next class is the upper middle class. This is where approximately 15% of Americans sit. These individuals usually have college educations, often with postgraduate studies. They will generally be employed in professional positions and upper level management. These individuals make six figure incomes.
The third class is the lower middle. Most American’s fall into this class at 34%. This class has college or skills training. They will work in semi-professional, managerial and skilled labor positions. They will mostly earn mid-range to high five figure incomes.
The fourth class is the working class. This is comprised of about 30% of Americans. These individuals have very little education above high school. This class is where one will find unskilled labor, craftspeople, salespeople and service industry workers. They earn low to mid-range five figure incomes.
The following class is the Working poor. These individuals have little in the way of formal education, save for high school. They will also be unskilled laborers and service industry workers. What separates them from the working class is their income which will be in the extremely low five figure range. About 16% of Americans belong to this class.
The final and lowest class according to Gilbert and Kahl is the underclass. This is where one will find the poor. These individuals may not even posses a basic high school education. They are usually unemployed or part time worker only. They may require state assistance in order to survive and they will have an income in the extremely low five figure range or less. Around 5% of Americans fall into this category.

So as you can see we are not quite as bad off in America as you believe we are.

[Tubbs]

The major characteristic of our class system that sets it apart from others is social mobility. This is what allows for movement up and down the social ladder and it is the feature that most distinguishes the class system from other forms of stratification such as the caste system. There are three types of social mobility, intergenerational, structural and exchange.
Intergenerational mobility occurs when children end up on a different rung of the social ladder than their parents. There are several factors that contribute to this form of mobility and the movement can be either upwards or downwards on the social ladder. For instance, a child whose father is an unskilled construction laborer does well in school, attends college and becomes a doctor. This is a prime example of upwards intergenerational social mobility.
Structural mobility is the second form of social mobility. It refers to the natural changes a society goes through that cause large numbers of people to move up and down the social ladder. A good example of this is the automobile industry, particularly in Michigan. For years working in this industry paid well and was considered to be prestigious. Since the industry began experiencing troubles though, several thousands of workers have been laid off and forced to get lower paying and more menial jobs. Not only is this an example of structural mobility, it also illustrates a downward movement.
The final form of social mobility is exchange mobility. This occurs when large numbers of people move up and down on the social ladder but because it is a balanced movement the social classes and structure remains largely unchanged. An example of this would be the boom in the technology industry that allowed individuals with those skills to rapidly ascend the social ladder. Their newfound status afforded them a greater disposable income, which led to a boom in the services industries essentially redistributing the wealth among all the classes. This exchange leaves the distinctions between classes largely unchanged.

Anyone in America has the chance to become part of the super rich regardless of their starting point. They simply need to have the drive to achieve it.

[Tubbs]

Max Werber was an early Sociologist who believed that religion, not economics was the central force behind social change. He believed that Protestantism undermined an individual’s spiritual security and in so doing encouraged them to embrace change. He felt that being insecure in their salvation would lead people to look for signs that God was pleased with them, financial success being chief among these.
In order to achieve this people would begin to lead frugal, self-denying lives. They would work hard and save and invest their money in order to make more. Werber believed that this brought about the birth of Capitalism and dubbed it the Protestant ethic.

Shortly after WWII America (along with most of the world) adopted what has become know as the Keneysian Economic model. This was largely to pay off staggering war debt without crippling the worlds economy. John Maynard Keyens was an economist who advocated interventionist government policy, by which the government would use fiscal and monetary measures to mitigate the adverse effects of economic recessions, depressions and booms. He is one of the fathers of modern theoretical macroeconomics.
He belived that the total income in a society is defined by the sum of consumption and investment; and in a state of unemployment and unused production capacity, one can only enhance employment and total income by first increasing expenditures for either consumption or investment.
He belived that deficit spending would increase consumption, which would stimulate production, this would in turn increase investments which would build capitial, which would replace the money spent in deficit.
The problem is that this model was only supposed to be a short term soloution and it was based on the principle that a countries currency was based on gold. When we went off the gold standard in the 1970's we dealt the first fatal blow to our economy based on this model.
Many economist argue that Keynesian economics can result in stagflation, which is the combination of low growth and high inflation.

The problem is that we have so long been in this cycle that there is no effective way to pull out of it without a serious recession.

[82ndtrooper]

Only in America, can a poor oppressed downtrodden person get government housing, free food, clean running water with indoor plumbing, free electricity 24/7, while owning a late model car with thousands of dollars worth of rims and electronics, several color TVs, a high end stereo, a fridge, a microwave, a washer and dryer, a cell phone, thousands of dollars worth of jewelry, and a $100 a day drug habit.

In most countries, they would be considered wealthy.

TR

And, they have no problem complaining that "it's not enough" and "I need more"

Not surpisingly, the base of support of Hillary and Obama are these people. They don't want incentive based programs, they only want more welfare based on cost of living increases, to which they will cite a cost of living increase based on the highest income levels.

[SilkRider32]

Sorry, I'm jumping in on this a little bit late, but I'd just like to set the record straight about the distribution of "wealth" in America.
SILKRIDER32, I believe the proper term for what you keep decrying in America is social stratification. Yes it is real, however it is a world wide phenomenon, not something that is unique to America. As far as the poor, well your beliefs on the distribtuition of wealth are somewhat more skewed.

So as you can see we are not quite as bad off in America as you believe we are.

Maybe I am misunderstood??? As I stated before I just found it hard to believe that someone is worth that much money. "Hard to believe" not that they "weren't" by the market standard. Even in $100 bills how much a pile of money $150 million would be. Just hard to comprehend. I am not crying out for the poor, they are that way because they choose to be that way. If someone is disabled and cannot work that is one thing but if they are just lazy then they have no rights to aid. They should starve or get a job. If they don't like it get a job or get a better education. It is all available in this country for those who want it. I am not against capitalism it is what makes this country strong. We have it great in this country even with our problems it is the greatest country in the world. Much better than the other ones I have visited.

[warrottjr]

What is the definition of a "new job" and how can one verify that those "new jobs" were specifically filled by H1Bs?

9 out of Every 10 Computer/IT Jobs Went to H-1Bs (http://www.zazona.com/NewsArchive/2002-06-28%209%20Out%20of%20Every%2010%20ComputerIT%20Jobs %20Went%20to%20H-1Bs.htm)

"According to the American Electronics Association (AeA), a major industry lobbyist that pushed Congress for increasing the H-1B quota, new statistics show that 96,700 new jobs in computer IT were created in 2001. Since 163,000 H-1B visas were issued in 2001, and according to the INS 53% of those visas are computer/IT jobs, 86,390 of the jobs in 2001 were taken by H-1Bs."

[brownapple]

"According to the American Electronics Association (AeA), "


The key phrase. According to a lobbyist, with no way of checking the data, or what that data entails.

[Tubbs]

Maybe I am misunderstood??? As I stated before I just found it hard to believe that someone is worth that much money. "Hard to believe" not that they "weren't" by the market standard. Even in $100 bills how much a pile of money $150 million would be. Just hard to comprehend. I am not crying out for the poor, they are that way because they choose to be that way. If someone is disabled and cannot work that is one thing but if they are just lazy then they have no rights to aid. They should starve or get a job. If they don't like it get a job or get a better education. It is all available in this country for those who want it. I am not against capitalism it is what makes this country strong. We have it great in this country even with our problems it is the greatest country in the world. Much better than the other ones I have visited.

I was actually directing that towards your statements on the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. That's not really true. While the rich are certainly staying rich, Americans are better off financially, class and status wise then they ever have been in history.

[Tubbs]

The key phrase. According to a lobbyist, with no way of checking the data, or what that data entails.

Having finished statistics I now know that the appropriate way to lie is to first gather all empirical data pertinent to the facts one is trying to distort so that one can then manipulate that data in a manner that suits their perogative.

[The Reaper]

The "average" American has one ovary and one testicle.:rolleyes:

TR

[Paste Eater]

Paste Eater,
America is the “land of opportunity” – but only if you make yourself available for the opportunity. Not to pick on you – nor lecture -- but
Our founding fathers established a Republic (not a democracy), with power given to the people thru their State Legislatures. They envisioned a nation where if you didn’t like your local government, taxes, job, or situation – YOU COULD MOVE and improve your lot in life.
My Family moved here from Scotland, then to Cleveland, then to Arizona. And I have moved my family six (6) times for a better life. We are Clannish also, but not blind --- if there ain’t no jobs in some place, and I have to work, I move !!!


SnT

Here's the thing, aside from the family thing around the area. I've moved about 3 times in the past 3 years from one college house to an apartment at college, and then back home to an old farm house. It costs money, and time. Now for me, it wasn't so bad, I could afford it. But think about people from areas and situations such as Southern Ohio.

Think of the family man, who has 3 or 4 kids and lives in a rural area where it's relatively safe. To move somewhere into a large city and be among the lower class usually is a trade for worse. I'm not trying to make excuses for these people, but the arguements I've heard as to why they don't better their situations are pretty solid. Stay at home, be poor, be around family and get by with a little help from each other. Or move a good while away, into a rough neighborhood and attempting to find a job that pays the bills and feeds the kids. I suppose such things are easier said than done. It does take a self motivated and self starting person to do these things. Most families play it safe, and safe around here is scraping together rent at the dead end job.

I wish more people would do what you did, or at least realize it can be done.


I guess it could be said that it's only the fault of those who let the world treat them like this. It does however take time, and money to relocate an entire family else where and start over. A guy I'm working with right now has switched jobs 3 times in the past three years and has moved his young family to three or four different counties in Ohio looking for work. It's not cheap to move, and when you're locked by the balls in a lease or contract in your current living situation, it makes the wait and problems that much longer.

I didn't take your post as a lecture or see it as you were picking on me. So don't worry about offending me, direct and to the point, as well as pure honesty goes over well with me any day.


Again, I'm all for getting over it, no excuses and going out into the world to make ends meat and make yourself. Then again, I've never had mouthes to feed aside from my husky... I'm from the area, but in all reality I can't relate in the slightest because I've had the schooling and other experiences most people from my area only wish to have.

[brownapple]

A guy I'm working with right now has switched jobs 3 times in the past three years and has moved his young family to three or four different counties in Ohio looking for work.


Maybe he should try moving out of Ohio...

[Paste Eater]

Maybe he should try moving out of Ohio...



I agree, but as to his reasoning, his family is here and that means more to him for whatever reason.

In my opinion surviving come first, but again, that clan mentallity just keeps people here for one stupid reason or another.

I bet if he had some sort of post high school education he would probably be out of the area, but that's not the case.

I was reading the local paper once, when they did random interviews with citizens of Chillicothe about the issue being voted on, whether or not to pass the levy and give the city schools money to build new buildings and keep their sports program (at the time they were cutting sports, music, and art to pay for things.) One old man said, and this is a pretty close quote "The school system was good enough for me and my dad, so it's good enough for these kids." Basically referring to technology or the lack there of. In Ohio schools are funded by property taxes on homes and businesses in the district. Poor lower class housing, and crappy private mom and pop shops don't cut the big checks. You would literally laugh at some of the facilities I've been to in the area back in high school during sports. Some public schools in Dublin outside of Columbus where businesses thrive and the rich live, have facilities that make a lot of small colleges blush.

On a side note a high school in my area does have The M48 Patton Tank sitting in the front of the high school on a concrete platform. The school on old Camp Sherman's grounds, so naturally the Sherman Tanks came about. It's a good thing the common person doesn't know a Patton from a Sherman. :) So, they spend thousands on an old tank instead of new computers for the library.



anyways, I'm done ranting.


Bottom line, there is absolutely no excuse and nobody holding anyone back, only themselves. Sure the world hands out shit deals sometimes, but life is what one makes it.

[brownapple]

Paste Eater,

I went to High School and College in Ohio (fortunately, one of the better High Schools). I know exactly what you are talking about. It amazed me about towns like Findlay, Lima, etc. I think there are only about a half-dozen of my HS class who still live in Ohio. The rest all found their way out (quite a few via the military).

[GratefulCitizen]

"Good" pay rate, turns of luck, etc. are only part of the equation in financial success.

There are 3 friends of mine and 1 acquaintance who have illustrated this with their courses in life.
All of them are/were blue-collar workers.


Friend #1:
Hard working, charismatic, ambitious.

He started working construction out of high school, worked his way up through the system and became quite skilled as an HVAC guy.
He capitalized on the opportunities during construction booms in Colorado.
Around 2000, he was typically making $70k+ per year.
One problem: he wouldn't stay away from the bottle.
He knew he had a problem but refused to make wise choices in the company he kept.
His life has been in continual chaos and he is usually dead broke, despite his income.


Friend #2:
Hard working, charismatic, ambitious.

He started construction work out of high school, became skilled in asbestos abatement and other hazmat-type stuff.
He bounced around other jobs and aquired a vast array of skills.
Most recently, he has been doing specialized underwater construction/welding.
I don't know how much he makes, but it is alot.
One problem: he always spends more than he makes.
His life has been in continual chaos and he is usually dead broke, despite his income.


Acquaintance #1:
Hard working, honest.
He can be charming if it is appropriate, but generally he is brutally honest with everyone and will tell anyone exactly where they can stick it if they don't like his opinion (including his bosses).
He is also prone to outbursts of temper and is often abrasive.

He joined the Army out of high school and served as a medic with the 82nd.
After getting out, he led a somewhat reckless lifestyle which abused his already torn-up body.
He married a military lawyer and lived in Panama. They divorced, he ended up (literally) with the shirt on his back and credit card debt for the plane trip back to Illinois.
He was 26 years old.
He went to work immediately doing low-paying difficult landscaping work.
His veteran status helped eventually to get him a job working at a Federal prison. His temper and abrasive nature got him fired.
He moved out west and started working at resorts as a waiter/porter/etc. His temper and abrasive nature caused some problems (and a resulted in a few assaults).
He got a job working security 40hrs/week at the Glen Canyon Dam after 9/11.
He later got a job working as a laborer with the dam's maintenance crew and retained his security job, as well, working 80+ hrs per week.
His temper and abrasive nature caused problems, but he was continually retained because he was an excellent worker.
Eventually, enough was enough and he was fired from the maintenance crew and barred from working security at the dam (effectively firing him).
He was 42.
However, starting at the age of 26, he lived frugally, avoided debt, and invested his money.
The income from his investments exceeded his living expenses by enough to comfortably retire.


Friend #3:
Works hard if necessary. Decisive. Takes responsibility for his decisions.
He will be polite if necessary, but is prone to outbursts of temper, is often abrasive, and is somewhat antisocial.

Out of high school, he received a ROTC scholarship to Colorado School of Mines.
He excelled in his ROTC duties.
He was required to undergo a nasty jaw surgery to remain medically qualified and elected to do this during the school year.
This turned out to be more than he could handle and his grades fell to where he lost his scholarship and could no longer afford to attend.
He had made a promise to help get his younger brother through college, as his family had invested in his education.
He started working as a laborer at Target, attended some classes at the local college and saved his money.
His brother worked at a local hotel, attended college and saved his money.
Once they were (barely) able, they bought a house (at ages 23 and 20, respectively).
They rented out spare rooms to local college students.
Eventually the older brother worked exclusively and the younger attended college exclusively.
After the younger graduated, the older bought out the younger's share of the house.
He (the older) continued to work at Target and manage his property.
Despite his temper and abrasive nature, he continually was promoted at Target because he got results.
He moved from his house to an apartment in order to have more tenants at his house.
He also has lived frugally, avoided debt, and invested his money.
At 34, he has plenty of disposable income due to his wage/expense difference, has growing investments, has passive income from his real estate, owns plenty of nice things, and wants for nothing.
He still works at Target.


The moral of the story:
Financial success in a capitalist system comes from investment and good self-discipline.
Financial failure comes from unrestrained spending and poor self-discipline.
Income is of lesser importance.



Oh, and the younger brother for whom friend #3 promised to provide an education:
After earning his B.S. in physics, he earned a Master's in aerospace engineering and presently is a consultant for the USAF.
He invented some way improving efficiency when satellite orbits are changed which saves on maneuvering fuel -- dramatically increasing the satellite's "lifespan".
It could well save the US gov't millions (or billions) of dollars over time.

Promises matter.

[Paste Eater]

Sorry to drag this back up...

However, did anyone happen to catch 60 Minutes this past weekend?

If not I'll let this thread do what it may.


Basically, a segment of 60 Minutes was filmed in the town I grew up in and currently reside. They interviewed a guy who sold my parents their first home in town, and went on to interview a group of local citizens, 4 of which are family friends. The segment explained the hard times around here, how the factories and plants are sending jobs that can't be replaced overseas to china, etc. Anywho, it may be on youtube.com or something. It's worth a watch if you want to get a little knowledge as to what I was talking about in my posts on this subject.

On a side note, if you do happen to watch it, and see that big guy with the beard crying about losing his job in the next couple months and not being able to pay for private medical insurance for his wife who has MS, pray for him. He's a good guy, and they're a good family, I went to school with his kids. (as well as the college student on the panel, old childhood friends.)