First name basis..and some other stuff

[SF718]

I hope this is the appropriate place for this, if not i apologize in advance...

im not here trying to ride my high horse but Heres some tips to someone just showing up. Maybe its minor, I don't know. But some stuff has happened recently that has led me to want to pass on something.

Hey, when you first show up out of the schoolhouse, Don't address people you don't know as "man", "dude", "bro" or by there first name unless being told its ok to do so. Its a simple army courtesy that seems to go out the window. Its an interesting thing to observe an E-6 or E-7 out of the course instinctively do this.

I'm not trying to burn ya. I'm just letting you know that although ive met alot of "laid back" people, they still have seniority that should be respected... and usually people will respect you and tell you to relax anyway.... i mean its a team..... Its a really great thing.

I remember showing up out of the course. I had been traveling for 12 hours or something like that. Ill have to admit to being unprepared for the situation i encountered at the terminal in Stuttgart. I was unaware of the number of places that the unit could possibly be located. I was under the assumption that once i found were i needed to be, i would be alloted some time to tidy myself up, throw on my freshly starched uniform and glass shined boots in preparation to meet whomever i would up the the CO SGM.

What wound up happening is, i was taken to the right place and was subsequently in the SGMs office not even an hour after getting off the plane. I hadn't shaved in 2 days and really just looked like a bum from all the traveling (maybe i was overly self conscious due to the situation).

Point being, i went about showing the proper courtesy but he introduced himself by his first name and pretty much told me to call him that (he knew my circumstances and it wasn't as important to him as i projected it would be). That SGM is still a major mentor of mine and probably one of the best i will ever have worked for. When it came to buissness he meant it. He was/is a huge advocate of situational awareness/ perception is reality/ know your operational environment etc. But even with him extending me or all of us that right, I could not let go of calling him "SGM". Some other guys were able to feel comfortable doing that.

Bottom line is Do yourself a favor and show the proper courtesies until told otherwise. Its the right thing to do, and its the professional thing to do. And good luck when you finally get to the team, you just walked into one of the greatest professions possible.

Keep Q-course intensity and listen. Make note of acronyms (sounds silly). Except the reality that there are quite a bit of administrative requirements that need to be met in order to train and fight. Its good to pay attention to that stuff. I just wanted to shoot, move and communicate and PT... But there some blocks that have to get checked before doing that, so take it seriously and it will help in the grooming process. Schools come up, if there is something your interested in, don't be afraid to express interest. You may fall into a slot for something early or it may take a bit. I think a year is a good probationary period before some advanced school sets and i think thats kind of the norm where ive been. Just don't bust balls and they will come.

If you get an assignment, i.e. a class to give, Don't come up short handed.... big ouch. every team room ive been in had a library. Do up a class and give it in front of someone so it can be vetted before presenting it in front of your team, you want to have that shit together.

Please have your personal life in order and if you need an extra week for something during inprocessing let your team sgt know... we would rather you be ready to go than have an appointment every few days. Its a training distracter thats uncalled for and leaves a very bad first impression.

Ive got just over three years team time and have been fortunate to receive some advanced skill sets and have been to quite a few places. But Im still humble to the fact that im still a novice operator and probably will be for another 5 years (or more).

Ill shut my mouth now.... go do some PT or something.

thanks for your time
Dee
:lifter

[Peregrino]

SF718 - Thanks for that post. It's great advice, simple common sense, and sadly, all to often ignored by new guys who haven't figured out the real operating environment.

[The Reaper]

Concur.

First impressions are lasting ones, and the inability to act professionally and render military courtesies (especially till told otherwise) renders a lasting negative impression.

We are soldiers first and special second. Don't be the one guy who assumes too much and makes an ass out of himself every time opportunity arises.

If you came to SF to grow long hair and a beard, wear mixed uniforms, call officers (including ones you do not know) by their first name, disobey orders and regs, act unprofessionally and generally be a jerk, you are going to be disappointed.

TR

[Snaquebite]

If you came to SF to grow long hair and a beard, wear mixed uniforms, call officers (including ones you do not know) by their first name, disobey orders and regs, act unprofessionally and generally be a jerk, you are going to be disappointed.

......and won't last long.

[jbour13]

......and won't last long.

Especially if you do it in front of the Group Commander and CSM :eek:

Happened last year, Jr. team member re-enforcing what his TL had stated:
Jr - Just as ****** was saying sir........
Grp Cdr - Excuse me SGT!!!!

Head from 4th POC to foot in mouth....then stuffing both back in and backing out.......hastily.

I was uncomfortable.......very uncomfortable.

[SF718]

Well, that shouldnt have happened, and probably wont happen again.... i think my team sgt would have either thrown me through a wall or out the window... without an approved risk assessment!:eek:

dee

[Defion69]

Good advice brother....hope the new guys going to Group heed this advice.

[bubba]

My first Team Sargent in my first SF counseling said "Officers are 'Sir', Warrants are 'Chief', and SGM/CSM's are 'Sargent Major', but most every one else is first name, after they let you know what it is" It has proven to be the most accurate and advantageous advice I ever received from any one. We (QP's) generally aint too much on "drill field crap" but it never hurts to put your hands behind your back or stand up strait when talking to the CSM or CDR, if nothing else it shows how professional you are and makes your team / TS / TL look good and in the process get your team a little bit better reputation.

[glebo]

As stated by others above, It's better to start out on the right foot. There's no second chance to make a first impression.

When I was a TMSGT I would not allow any of the NCO's on the team to call any of the officers (TLDR/WO) by there first names, you have to have a military rank stucture, and respect it. When the crap gets down and dirty, personality takes a back seat and it's time to follow orders. Team members were allowed with other NCO's, but as said, only if the senior person allowed it, which was mostly the case.

I totally understand the team concept (hope so after 17yrs in SF) but the military DOES have a rank structure.

[Dragbag036]

I remember when I first showed up to Deutschland, you kept your mouth shut and listened to all the advice that was given to you. It wasn't until my first team away training (about 3 months later)that on an evening out after training my TL informed me that he and I would be joining the team later. After talking to me about his experience arriving to the team, he informed me that during the days training the team accepted me as a member, and although I still had a lot to learned, here's a beer, drink up, and lets go join the rest of the guys. And even though I was very proud of that moment I still kept my mouth shut and my eyes opened and listened.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

From my perspective, if that matters, I have found that dealings between SF folk boils down to a matter of maturity; perceptions (correct or incorrect) about an individuals professional attributes; and the ability to separate personal and professional aspects of their day to day activities. I have never corrected anyone for not using my rank for many reasons and I have preferred to address problems with failings in customs and courtesies in private or more in an off the cuff manner than jumping down someone's throat. I always felt that a person of higher rank could not demand respect for themselves but rather earned it as a matter of respect for others, performance of duties, and setting the correct example. While I agree with what has been written here for the most part, there are times when rank, formal address, or anything other than a familiar form of address to someone is just not a good thing. While I admit that these are mission and situation driven, they do exist and strict adherence to the standards of the spit shined boot and high and tight military can create numerous problems one of which is a break down of communication between the tight assed "leader" and those that need to be able to get the information to or from him in an expeditious manner. I think we all are different and probably it is more important for those who "would be king" remember that their job is to enable those for whom they are charged to succeed and if throwing obstacles of strict adherence to the form of address over the function of the unit takes priority then this becomes a serious impediment to getting anything done, morale, and unit effectiveness. I have been addressed in many forms over my time: first name, last name, rank, callsign, nickname, sir, sergeant, or just a tap on the shoulder. I have never been confused as to where I was in the pecking order when that mattered, and neither was the addressee be he senior, contemporary or subordinate in grade. I guess my point is this, how this goes down will depend on the unit and the folks within it and when we get hung up on titles and form over function and performance we tend to loose sight of what is most important. There is a time and a place for everything, but good order and discipline is not only developed by the strict adherence to titles within organizations where professionalism, maturity, and respect for the individual is based on performance and not form/title. Just my opinion based on limited experience.

[SFpanama]

Being that I'm SF veteran, I've never considered calling one of my SF brothers bro disrespectful. Quite the contrary. If I respect you enough to call you my bro, it should be accepted as just that. For the record, I love those I call my brother and I would do anything for them. Anyone who makes the decision to be offended by such, is not worthy of being called bro in the first place, but like an officer that you may not like but you salute none the less because you respect the rank, I'll still call my SF brothers bro, because I respect the fraternity. Here's a poster I made that might convey what I'm saying.

[Weaponsguy76]

Amen BRO, nice poster. I agree 100% at the same token, the use of rank until told otherwise sounds like the right thing to do. You're not my "bro" until we've PT'd together and maybe been a few places. That is a common mistake that tends to get newbies hemed up quick. My Tmsgt wouldn't have it, and we enforced it with our new guys. They were lucky if they were spoken to at all until they proved themselves an asset to the team. As for the guys that have been around awhile, I have all the respect in the world for. I wish my personnal life hadn't of cut my career short. Even with three years on a team and now out, its an honor to be considered a part of such a great brotherhood.

[SFpanama]

Amen BRO, nice poster. I agree 100% at the same token, the use of rank until told otherwise sounds like the right thing to do. You're not my "bro" until we've PT'd together and maybe been a few places. That is a common mistake that tends to get newbies hemed up quick. My Tmsgt wouldn't have it, and we enforced it with our new guys. They were lucky if they were spoken to at all until they proved themselves an asset to the team. As for the guys that have been around awhile, I have all the respect in the world for. I wish my personnal life hadn't of cut my career short. Even with three years on a team and now out, its an honor to be considered a part of such a great brotherhood.

Your first non edited response seemed to be more to the point, whereas your edited response is somewhat of a dichotomy. You say "Amen BRO" in one sentence and then say "You're not my "bro" until we've PT'd together and maybe been a few places" in another. Now as best as I know, you and I have never PT'd together and we've never been to a few places either. There is a paradox in your amended statement.

Now don't get me wrong pal, I for one don't care whether I'm called bro, John, buddy, pal, sir, friend, mate, yada, yada, yada. The fact is, I'm way more secure in who I am to be bothered by how someone addresses me. I'm merely pointing out the paradoxical nature of your amended response.

I can say that I've never felt uncomfortable referring to a fellow SF brother as bro, whether I knew him or not. Granted, when your a brand new guy going into your unit, it's probably best to get to know the parameters of familiarity before ruffling someones feathers who might make the choice to be offended where none is intended. Having said that, as an older SF vet, I in no way feel that calling a fellow SF vet bro, whether I know him or not, is anything more than mutual respect for us belonging to the same fraternity.

I can also say that I've never personally met any SF vet that was offended when I called him bro. Man I've had SF vets hug me that I've met for the first time. When we first started SFA Chapter LV, I along with 8 other SF vets met for our first meeting. I only knew one of them before that gathering, yet we were all hugging and back slapping each other from the get go. Included were 3 original manifest members, of which one was a retired SGM and another was a retired MSG and the 3rd was a retired successful executive with Ford Motor Co. Oh, and another one of the guys I just met was an active duty LTC.

When I was on active duty, many moons ago, I interfaced frequently with all ranks, both enlisted and officer. There were always different levels of familiarity and protocol depending on the situation. I often socialized, attended gatherings, had dinner and went to church with people who outranked me. Even though we were familiar in these social situations, we were all professional in our military functions when on duty. If anything, it was because of this familiarity that I would want to perform for my ranking superiors even more.

My point is this, I'm personally not offended by someone referring to me as bro and I certainly am not intending to offend anyone I call such. If you are SF, you belong to my fraternity and that makes you my brother, whether your fresh out of the Q Course, retired, a short timer, career soldier, enlisted or officer. Having said that, I more than realize that everyone doesn't think like me. So be it. If any of my SF brothers think otherwise, that is certainly there right to make that choice. The fact is most of us knew long before we ever crossed paths on this site that people have different mindsets. So let's just say that some of us may have to agree to disagree about some things and the sun will still be in the heavens when we wake up.

If I meet you or any of my other SF brothers at a convention for the first time and I call you bro, brother, pal or buddy, yada, yada, yada, I truly hope that you won't make the choice to be offended. If you do make the choice to be offended, just tell me what you want to be called and out of courtesy to my SF bro, I'll oblige you. In SF you have to be flexible. :D

[Weaponsguy76]

Well said. I agree. As far as PT and going a few places is mainly towards the new guys that just arrive. As for you and others that I have met that have been around longer than myself the respect has been paid for. You guys have earned that much and more from us younger guys by just being in the position that you hold. When young guys go through the course and see their Cadre for the first time they are in AWWE. At least I was. Instantly they had my respect. Not that they cared, but they had it. Its hard for me to explain in words. Lets just say youre last entry was on the Mark and I agree. Nice chatting with you Bro take care.

DE OPPRESSO LIBER

[Blakeslee]

It's threads like this that makes this site very valuable - not only to QP hopefuls, but to all Soldiers in general.

Thank you for your advise and to the reponses that followed.

[Richard]

Guys,

My TMSGTs and I had served together as NCOs prior to my trek to the BSB (Benning School for Boys). I always called them either SGT X or TOP whenever anyone was around and by their first names only when we were alone. They always called me SIR or TiUy/DaiUy or LT/CPT when anyone was around and by my first name only when we were alone. A SGM/CSM was always SERGEANT MAJOR and a superior officer was always COL Y or SIR. I didn't call other team members by their first/nick names, only by their rank or last name; e.g., SGT Z or just Z. If SGT Z's nickname was PIG PEN for example, I might say, "TOP, tell SGT Z to see me before leaving today" or "tell Z to see me before leaving today" or even "tell PIG PEN to see me before leaving today"...but I would never call SGT Z by the nickname.

IMO, the structure of a team to an outsider or a newbie often seems more casual than it is. To the uninitiated, this can lead them to making a serious faux pas from which they may not recover. I learned that until you knew how an ODA operated internally and were accepted, it was best to be a QP--emphasis on the Q.

Anyways, this worked for me.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

[the squid]

From my perspective, if that matters, I have found that dealings between SF folk boils down to a matter of maturity; perceptions (correct or incorrect) about an individuals professional attributes; and the ability to separate personal and professional aspects of their day to day activities. I have never corrected anyone for not using my rank for many reasons and I have preferred to address problems with failings in customs and courtesies in private or more in an off the cuff manner than jumping down someone's throat. I always felt that a person of higher rank could not demand respect for themselves but rather earned it as a matter of respect for others, performance of duties, and setting the correct example. While I agree with what has been written here for the most part, there are times when rank, formal address, or anything other than a familiar form of address to someone is just not a good thing. While I admit that these are mission and situation driven, they do exist and strict adherence to the standards of the spit shined boot and high and tight military can create numerous problems one of which is a break down of communication between the tight assed "leader" and those that need to be able to get the information to or from him in an expeditious manner. I think we all are different and probably it is more important for those who "would be king" remember that their job is to enable those for whom they are charged to succeed and if throwing obstacles of strict adherence to the form of address over the function of the unit takes priority then this becomes a serious impediment to getting anything done, morale, and unit effectiveness. I have been addressed in many forms over my time: first name, last name, rank, callsign, nickname, sir, sergeant, or just a tap on the shoulder. I have never been confused as to where I was in the pecking order when that mattered, and neither was the addressee be he senior, contemporary or subordinate in grade. I guess my point is this, how this goes down will depend on the unit and the folks within it and when we get hung up on titles and form over function and performance we tend to loose sight of what is most important. There is a time and a place for everything, but good order and discipline is not only developed by the strict adherence to titles within organizations where professionalism, maturity, and respect for the individual is based on performance and not form/title. Just my opinion based on limited experience.


Sir, not that my opinion is worth much at this point in my life, but as one who hopes to travel down the beaten path, I feel that this is spot on, and I'm going to put this in my kit bag. Thank you.

[uplink5]

Good points but reality is, we are our own worst enemy sometimes. Too many times I've seen where within the groups, and specifically with our support personnel, (and now our young X-rays) we do sometimes ruin them in regards to good order and discipline. We do refer to them by their first names and or treat them as equals too often. Too many times I have seen this and addressing the issue seems to only last for a short time and then, there it is again. We treat them not as subordinates, but as peers sometimes. I've seen PFCs, SPC & SGTs who arrive straight as a board and in no time, their too dammed acclimated into a very detrimental culture to their careers if they ever leave us. AND THEY WILL leave us eventually.

What’s the answer? WELL, WE ALL KNOW THE ANSWER. Yet, too few of us adhere to the answer on a consistent basis. Young guys need to be led, they don’t need friends first and leaders second.

We all like being the good, paternal leader instilling our counsel and benevolent wisdom but, this needs to be hammered home sometimes. The worst thing you'd want to end up with is a dad dealing with his adolescent son scenario in the team room, or worst yet, our setting these soldiers up for failure in their futures because they look to us for our example.
How many times have we seen this?

So, with that said, lets have another beer, son.....jd

[Radar Rider]

Especially if you do it in front of the Group Commander and CSM :eek:

Happened last year, Jr. team member re-enforcing what his TL had stated:
Jr - Just as ****** was saying sir........
Grp Cdr - Excuse me SGT!!!!

Head from 4th POC to foot in mouth....then stuffing both back in and backing out.......hastily.

I was uncomfortable.......very uncomfortable.

It's shit like that which gives MI a bad name in SF. Some arrogant little f@#k that doesn't know his place. I know that basic and AIT don't train as they should, but when they get to me they KNOW that there's no f#$cking around. I don't put up with that sh#t, and neither should you.