View Full Version : Need help with a problem with my M-1 Carbine...
Maybe I am not seeing the obvious but I am still looking for you guys to point it out.
I have an IAI M-444 (this Israeli companys version of the Carbine) that will not full seat a cartridge in the chamber. The bolt will not go into battery because of it. Last year it was loaned to a friend who does WWII "Living History" to shoot blanks (both plastic and brass). Last month I finally got around to fully dis-assembling the rifle with the exception of taking the barrel off of the reciever and cleaned it. Now I cannot even get the blanks to chamber fully. I have scrubbed the bore and tried as best I could to get the chamber clean.
With a bore light I cannot spot any obstructions in the barrel or the chamber but then again it goes back to not beeing able to see the chamber fully because of its design.
Any suggestions?
Peregrino
01-16-2008, 18:08
1. Use a dental exam mirror.
2. Take it to a competent gunsmith and have him check headspace (with the gauges ;)).
Karl.Masters
01-16-2008, 18:11
MAB,
I'd have my smith take a cast of the chamber with Woods metal, then do a visual check of the neck of the casting. You can also measure the dimensions of the casting and compare to chamber specs to see what is going on.
Karl
1. Use a dental exam mirror.
2. Take it to a competent gunsmith and have him check headspace (with the gauges ;)).
MAB, that is probably your best choice. In a situation where there is wear, the headspace will become "greater". Bolt will go to battery but too much room in the cylinder. I don't think it is a headspace issue at this point. More a problem with debris in the chamber/throat. Way to check:
1) does the bolt go to battery when no round is in the chamber?
2) if yes, you may still have too much debris in the chamber/throat such as plastic, etc. That can keep a round from completely chambering, thus keeping the bolt from going to battery.
If the bolt will not go to battery with no round present then the problem is in operating system/locking lugs
Peregrino,:)
Found one about 30 minutes ago. It looks clean. I used Sweets and let it soak in the chamber for 10 minutes to. Still a no-go.
HOLLiS,:)
To answer your 2nd question, yes it will go into battery on an empty chamber.
Peregrino
01-16-2008, 19:42
Interesting. If you're using virgin, factory ammo, that only leaves KM's recommendation. Chamber castings are routine for knowledgeable gunsmiths. It will answer all questions. Good luck. Carbines are fun plinkers and the ammo/components are fairly cheap (for the moment).
Another thing before a chamber casting, Take a round, lightly coated with Prussian bluing or a colored grease. Chamber it. and then look for wear marks. Maybe easier said than done. I use Prussian bluing a lot for checking operations for tight clearances or restrictions.
The only thing I know that reduce the size of a chamber is debris. The only chambers gauges I have are no gos. I use a dummy round for a go gauge.
rudelsg2
01-16-2008, 20:51
MAB, first a few questions.
1. Since it is a IAI (actually manufactured in Texas not Isreal), how did it perform before loaning it to your buddy?
2. If it performed fine before, how many rounds have you put through it?
3. Other than the plastic blank rounds, were the metal cased blank rounds lacquered in any way?
IAI are not to be confused with USGI carbines, most parts are cast not forged to include the receiver and the operating slide. IAI are notorious for having bad feed ramps, bent and binding slides and a number of other problems.
My USGI Saginaw had issues going into full battery with every other round; I replaced the operating slide spring and never had another issue.
Not to sound like a butt, BUT the ultimate fix would be to purcahse a reliable USGI thru the CMP. CMP has Rack grade USGI Inland ($419.00) and Underwoods ($479.00)for purchase, . One can never go wrong with USGI bought thru the CMP.
Finally, here is a board link with some true M1 carbine gurus.
http://www.ambackforum.com/viewforum.php?f=110
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/carbine/carbine.pl?
Peregrino
01-16-2008, 21:02
MAB - My 'smith is reading the thread. He says borescope it. The possibility is that the blanks have left a carbon deposit where the cartridge headspaces. (Headspaces like a pistol.) Then make a chamber cast using Cerokote. Follow manufacturers directions. If it's the carbon - problem solved with a good cleaning. HTH
The Reaper
01-16-2008, 21:14
Another option would be for your gunsmith to use a Go/No Go gauge and a chamber reamer to clean up the chamber, if it is gunked up.
Not sure what kind of blanks were used, but Sweet's will not dissolve plastic.
TR
Gene Econ
01-16-2008, 21:21
Maybe I am not seeing the obvious but I am still looking for you guys to point it out. I have an IAI M-444 (this Israeli companys version of the Carbine) that will not full seat a cartridge in the chamber. The bolt will not go into battery because of it. Last year it was loaned to a friend who does WWII "Living History" to shoot blanks (both plastic and brass). Last month I finally got around to fully dis-assembling the rifle with the exception of taking the barrel off of the reciever and cleaned it. Now I cannot even get the blanks to chamber fully. I have scrubbed the bore and tried as best I could to get the chamber clean. With a bore light I cannot spot any obstructions in the barrel or the chamber but then again it goes back to not beeing able to see the chamber fully because of its design. Any suggestions?
MAB:
I read everyone's suggestions and your inspections and cleaning narratives.
Are you sure it is the same barrel? If your bud was doing WWII re-enactments he was firing some sort of blank that probably had to function the bolt. Two ways of doing it. Blank adaptor or blank barrel. Yes, they make barrels for blanks that don't need blank adaptors and they won't chamber live rounds.
So how about ensuring your barrel is the real one?
Gene
MAB - My 'smith is reading the thread. He says borescope it. The possibility is that the blanks have left a carbon deposit where the cartridge headspaces. (Headspaces like a pistol.) Then make a chamber cast using Cerokote. Follow manufacturers directions. If it's the carbon - problem solved with a good cleaning. HTH
I believe you are referring to Cerrosafe (http://brownells.spintest.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=384)
Good times,
Blake
Gene,
I am positive it is the original barrel. The guy using it for "Living History" had no way of doing it because I took the rifle home after every show. We used the G.I. blank adaptor too.
TR,
I used Hoppes #9 before hand to see if that would break up the plastic.
rudelsg2,
The brass blanks had no Lacquer on them. When I first got it I fired approximately 150+ rounds thru it without a single malfunction. Something had to have happend during the use of the blanks. Also, thanks for correcting me on where it was manufactured.
Guess she's going to gun doctor. Thanks guys for your help. I will keep you advised of what he finds out.
rudelsg2
01-16-2008, 22:13
Gene,
I am positive it is the original barrel. The guy using it for "Living History" had no way of doing it because I took the rifle home after every show. We used the G.I. blank adaptor too.
TR,
I used Hoppes #9 before hand to see if that would break up the plastic.
rudelsg2,
The brass blanks had no Lacquer on them. When I first got it I fired approximately 150+ rounds thru it without a single malfunction. Something had to have happend during the use of the blanks. Also, thanks for correcting me on where it was manufactured.
Guess she's going to gun doctor. Thanks guys for your help. I will keep you advised of what he finds out.
Hopefully it's something simple. Having read a few post about IAI carbines your round count seems to be about right for malfunction time for that model. Again, not trying to be a butt or know it all with info snippits, but Israel generally gets the undeserved "credit" for this gun.
Not trying to slagg off on your carbine, but I generally stay away from anything not USGI when it comes to M1 carbines. Most of the civvy ones were made of questionable parts and there has been quite a few serious failures with bolts and receivers due to the poor quality of parts and assembly used in their make up.