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Penn
01-15-2008, 11:37
About five weeks ago, I suffered a third/fourth degree burn, on my right index finger, btw the first and middle joint, and around the left side of the finger. It melted my flesh and penetrated to the bone. Within 10 seconds, I immersed my hand in a quart of 32^F egg whites. The burning stop immediately and the pain was gone. As I had to finish the night, (about 6 hrs). I continued to immerse my hand in the albumin, the second, I felt any burning sensation; I did not clean the wound or bandage it that night, but waited till morning.
In the morning, I gently washed out the burn with cold water, and then I cracked a fresh egg, separated the yolk, and again covered the burn. I did this all day, for two days, and only covered the burn with ointment, gauze, band aid, rubber surgical glove, when working the line (about 3hrs). The ointment was used so the gauze would not stick. When not working I left the burn open to the air and would dab egg white on and around the burn. I did this until the wound was fully healed. The finger throbbed for days.
At this point, fully healed, I have no scar tissue, except for the red tone to the new skin, reduced felling to the touch, when its cold outside my finger is sensitive to it. And when pressing on the burn site, very little feeling at all.
While it was healing, the burn was concaved. When viewed from the side there was a noticeable dip of missing flesh. That has all filled in now.

I don’t know if you use any pure albumin based products in your treatments.
Or, if it is an avenue to investigate. But from my experience, this kitchen remedy never fails to turn off the pain in seconds, and helps speed the healing process.

Would like to hear what you think.

Books
01-15-2008, 18:40
You say that the wound went through to the bone? Are you saying that you could see white through the wound? And that the rest was charred black? But only between the two knuckles on the index finger? Must have sucked. What burned you?

From what Ive read, egg whites have long been a home remedy for burns, both to alieviate pain and to heal tissue. Further, in hospitals, for folks with severe burns covering large parts of their body, serum albumin is recommended during the first 8 hours in conjunction with the Parkland formula. http://www.totalburncare.com/orientation_burn_shock.htm

It makes sense that immersing a burn in egg whites would help. The tissue is either destroyed or damaged, in serious need of both fluid, nutrients and protection from exposure and submersion in egg whites provides this. However, egg whites are not sterile and burns are incredibly susceptible to infection. If there was a way to sterilize egg whites. . .

First aid for 3 degree burns according to established medical protocols includes an antibiotic ointment (silver sulfadiazine or Bacitracin), wrapping the wound in dry gauze, and rushing to the hospital. Fluids would be brought on board according to the Parkland formula. Perhaps an escharatomy. . . At the hospital, the stabilized patient would then enjoy a daily sloughing of dead tissue and reapplication of the ointment. Nasty, nasty, nasty work. Even when you dope them up, the patient still feels it. Throughout all of it however, is a constant fear of, and fight against, infection.

Glad that your burn healed well. I'll look into this more for work in less developed areas. Thanks.

Books

Penn
01-15-2008, 20:45
I was burnt by a piece of carbon, which came loose from a cast Iron pan coated in a sugar honey oil reduction (450 ^F +) to glaze a veal chop with. Carbon builds up along the rim of the pans over time. If it was just the carbon, it would have just been a blister burn, but the sugar sticks and continues to burn. After dunking the hand in egg whites, it cooled. I pulled it off along with a hunk of my finger.
The white exposed part was about the size of two match heads. The burn covered the entire knuckle area from well done to rare; an equal part of the left side of the finger was just melted.

Ambush Master
01-15-2008, 21:40
I picked up a "Toaster Strudel" out of the Toaster with a paper napkin. I grabbed it by the upper corners and just before I got it to the plate, it EXPLODED!!! One of the Kids had put it in on Max Power and it was way overheated!!

Same as your encounter, but I got it off before it took hide with it.

I keep "OraJell" in the fridge to deal with kitchen burns. I cooled it down and then put the OraJell on it and the Benzocaine totally killed the pain.

I kept the gel on it for a day or two, when it would start to hurt and put the hand in a sock at night so that I couldn't rub my eyes while asleep.

Anyone else have any "Field Expedient" quick remedies for BAD Burns?

Take care.
Martin

Eagle5US
01-15-2008, 22:05
About five weeks ago, I suffered a third/fourth degree burn, on my right index finger, btw the first and middle joint, and around the left side of the finger. It melted my flesh and penetrated to the bone. Within 10 seconds, I immersed my hand in a quart of 32^F egg whites. The burning stop immediately and the pain was gone. As I had to finish the night, (about 6 hrs). I continued to immerse my hand in the albumin, the second, I felt any burning sensation; I did not clean the wound or bandage it that night, but waited till morning.
In the morning, I gently washed out the burn with cold water, and then I cracked a fresh egg, separated the yolk, and again covered the burn. I did this all day, for two days, and only covered the burn with ointment, gauze, band aid, rubber surgical glove, when working the line (about 3hrs). The ointment was used so the gauze would not stick. When not working I left the burn open to the air and would dab egg white on and around the burn. I did this until the wound was fully healed. The finger throbbed for days.
At this point, fully healed, I have no scar tissue, except for the red tone to the new skin, reduced felling to the touch, when its cold outside my finger is sensitive to it. And when pressing on the burn site, very little feeling at all.
While it was healing, the burn was concaved. When viewed from the side there was a noticeable dip of missing flesh. That has all filled in now.

I don’t know if you use any pure albumin based products in your treatments.
Or, if it is an avenue to investigate. But from my experience, this kitchen remedy never fails to turn off the pain in seconds, and helps speed the healing process.

Would like to hear what you think.
While you may have burned yourself and utilized this home remedy for treatment - you did not receive a 3rd / 4th degree burn "down to the bone".
The flesh in the types of burns you describe the ESCHAR cannot "regenerate". 3rd degree burns are generally painless, as the skin layers containing the nerve endings are cooked through and the nerves destroyed. It is cooked, much like steak would be cooked. 3rd degree burns can, and often ARE, surrounded by areas of second and first degree burns, which can indeed be quite painful.
I find it odd that you would have access to "within 10 seconds" - submerge your burn in a quart of 32 degree F egg whites. :confused:

Additionally, for all those reading this thread and thinking about experimentation with self treatment of significant burns (thermal or otherwise)...BURNS TO THE HANDS, FACE, GROIN SHOULD BE SEEN BY A PROFESSIONAL IN A BURN CENTER.
Burns to the hands can be permanently debilitating without proper treatment and occupational therapy.

While major burn centers may utilize albumin based products (I have no experience or information to confirm or deny this) - I have not seen any corroborated use for it in Emergency Care or the pre-hospital setting.
Googling "egg white for burns" demonstrates multiple pages of "home remedies"...but nothing blatant from the established medical community.

Eagle

Black Knight
01-15-2008, 22:21
While you may have burned yourself and utilized this home remedy for treatment - you did not receive a 3rd / 4th degree burn "down to the bone".
The flesh in the types of burns you describe cannot "regenerate". 3rd degree burns are generally painless, as the skin layers containing the nerve endings are cooked through and the nerves destroyed. It is cooked, much like steak would be cooked. 3rd degree burns can, and often ARE, surrounded by areas of second and first degree burns, which can indeed be quite painful.
I find it odd that you would have access to "within 10 seconds" - submerge your burn in a quart of 32 degree F egg whites. :confused:

Additionally, for all those reading this thread and thinking about experimentation with self treatment of significant burns (thermal or otherwise)...BURNS TO THE HANDS, FACE, GROIN SHOULD BE SEEN BY A PROFESSIONAL IN A BURN CENTER.
Burns to the hands can be permanently debilitating without proper treatment and occupational therapy.

While major burn centers may utilize albumin based products (I have no experience or information to confirm or deny this) - I have not seen any corroborated use for it in Emergency Care or the pre-hospital setting.
Googling "egg white for burns" demonstrates multiple pages of "home remedies"...but nothing blatant from the established medical community.

Eagle

Thank you Eagle. Until your post, I was beginnig to become concerned and slightly puzzled.

This isn't beyond Thunderdome. Go to the damn doctor, it isn't worth it.

Penn
01-16-2008, 09:06
Eagle, I'm a chef in a restaurant in NYC. We always have egg whites in the refer..pastry work. You're proably right on the degree level. Penn

Red Flag 1
01-16-2008, 09:16
Penn,

Agree with Eagle5. One of the concerns I have is infection. Should the wound become infected, more tissue damage will take place. You can actually see a 2nd degree burn evolve into a 3rd degree injury from the tissue loss to infection. There is really no reason to NOT see a doc.

RF 1

Eagle5US
01-16-2008, 09:35
Eagle, I'm a chef in a restaurant in NYC. We always have egg whites in the refer..pastry work. You're proably right on the degree level. Penn

Chef = very cool:lifter

Glad it turned out OK for you in the long run. I am sure that you burn yourself as a matter of "kitchen routine":D

Eagle

Team Sergeant
01-16-2008, 09:38
Penn,

Agree with Eagle5. One of the concerns I have is infection. Should the wound become infected, more tissue damage will take place. You can actually see a 2nd degree burn evolve into a 3rd degree injury from the tissue loss to infection. There is really no reason to NOT see a doc.

RF 1

RF 1, are you a medical professional?

Red Flag 1
01-16-2008, 15:39
TS
Finished USAF anesthesia residency in 1977...finally retired in 2002

RF 1

Team Sergeant
01-16-2008, 15:44
TS
Finished USAF anesthesia residency in 1977...finally retired in 2002

RF 1

Good to know.

We don't allow just anyone to offer advice on this board.

We do have a good number of fully vetted Trauma surgeons (my wife being one of them), PA's SF medics etc etc etc.

If you wish to be vetted as a medical professional send me a PM.

Team Sergeant

Doc Dutch
01-17-2008, 12:30
All,

This has been a very interesting string on burns and I wish to add a couple of comments if I might. Let me share what I have gathered as an associate director of burns for roughly the last 5 years. Last year at our burn center we saw nearly 4900 burns of which over 920 were admitted while all the rest were outpatient or clinic follow-ups. Many simple and complex hand burn injuries presented at all hours of the day and night. Thank goodness many of the simple hand burns were self limiting, meaning that no matter what you do they will go on to heal with good basic wound care and a physician's vigilent eye. That is true if they do not get infected. Remember that burn injuries are essentially dead tissue. If the area is small enough the body can use its white blood cells to breakdown the small burn eschar and new skin will grow. We use silvadene, bacitracin and Aquacel Ag for different types of burn injuries for different reasons, all at different stages of healing to help expedite the process and to minimize discomfort. The healing skin has damaged nerve endings which in a first degree or second degree burn hurts tremendously. Again, third degree is total destruction of all nerves and tissues so is painless, except, as stated above, if there remains first or second degree burn around the third degree burn.

It is important to understand that bacteria loves dead tissue. That is why with the severely burned patients with third degree burns (hopefully, no fourth degree) and large surface area burns, infection is an enormous risk. Yes, even small area burns can get infected. I have had to admit small burns for raging cellulitis because the hand burn became infected. At times this has led to abscesses that required incision and drainage, worsening of the second degree burn to third degree burn and then on to skin grafting, joint involvement, tendon involvement, loss of motion, etc. The best thing that happened with this initial case is that the dead blister was debrided (or so it sounds), that the wound was bandaged and that ointment was applied frequently.

As for home remedies, they are "quick fixes" and have been tested by people throughout the centuries. Years ago, moms would grab butter sticks from the old ice box because butter was soothing and cool to a child's burn. Many of my patients from "south of the border" that get burned in the US smear toothpaste on their burns as it soothes their burns as well. How many of us have grabbed an ice cube from the frig and soothed a finger burn after we errantly touched the stove? The problem with anything ice cold is that it causes vasoconstriction and starves the area of burn from getting blood and can therefore extend the zone (or area) of injury, so please avoid putting burns in ice or iced water. If someone is barbequeing and they catch, yes, push them in the pool or spray them with the garden hose but usually swimming pools in July do not have ice cubes in them. They are luke warm and so it puts the fire out and cools the wound but does not make the wound ischemic. But also rememeber that hypothermia kills, so the burn victim gets dried off and wrapped in a blanket to keep warm as 911 is called.

The American Burn Association, which is the accrediating body for all US burn centers and is further given its accrediation by the American College of Surgery, recommends that all hand burns should be seen at a burn center. Hands are valuable and they are irreplaceable. They are often treated with disregard as we bang them around in our daily lives, but they are so invaluable to what every human does everyday. Today, hand surgery is its own defined subspecialty in medicine with its own training programs. So, we strongly urge that if you have a hand or finger burn, please come in to one of the 43 burn centers or one of the 120 burn units around the US. If you do not have a local one, go to the local emergency room and get advice from the ED physician. Many plastic surgeons and general surgeons have burn experience as well, but the wound should be seen by a physician. These are small injuries but they can be devastating if not cared for and followed. I have seen amputations of hands and digits due to too many carefree attitudes and the mindset that, "Well, it will be better tomorrow". There is something one of my professors taught me many years ago, and I quote, "You don't know what you don't know". He was right for as I study and see patients everyday I learn more all the time. That is why general surgeons train for 5 to 8 years after medical school and we still learn new things everyday (I did even today from your website and is the reason I joined).

Many diseases are self-limiting. Thank goodness this one sounds like it was. But be careful! Simple problems can sadly be the tip of the iceberg. If you use a home remedy remember it is not in place of sound medical advice.

Thank you,

Dutch

Team Sergeant
01-17-2008, 19:42
All,

Many diseases are self-limiting. Thank goodness this one sounds like it was. But be careful! Simple problems can sadly be the tip of the iceberg. If you use a home remedy remember it is not in place of sound medical advice.

Thank you,

Dutch

Thank you Doc Dutch.

For those that do not know Doc Dutch is a Trauma/Burns Physician/MD and a personal friend.;)

Team Sergeant

NousDefionsDoc
01-17-2008, 20:37
I'll repeat, because it's worth repeating: The level of expertise on this discussion forum is simply amazing.

Ambush Master
01-17-2008, 20:57
I'll repeat, because it's worth repeating: The level of expertise on this discussion forum is simply amazing.

Not to mention: The "Zero-Bullshit-Level" that is maintained is quite refreshing!!!:D

Take care.
Martin

NousDefionsDoc
01-17-2008, 20:58
Not to mention: The "Zero-Bullshit-Level" that is maintainrd is quite refreshing!!!:D

Take care.
Martin

Indeed Brother, indeed. Warning shots to the temple.

Eagle5US
01-17-2008, 23:20
All,

This has been a very interesting string on burns and I wish to add a couple of comments if I might. Let me share what I have gathered as an associate director of burns for roughly the last 5 years. Last year at our burn center we saw nearly 4900 burns of which over 920 were admitted while all the rest were outpatient or clinic follow-ups. Many simple and complex hand burn injuries presented at all hours of the day and night. Thank goodness many of the simple hand burns were self limiting, meaning that no matter what you do they will go on to heal with good basic wound care and a physician's vigilent eye. That is true if they do not get infected. Remember that burn injuries are essentially dead tissue. If the area is small enough the body can use its white blood cells to breakdown the small burn eschar and new skin will grow. We use silvadene, bacitracin and Aquacel Ag for different types of burn injuries for different reasons, all at different stages of healing to help expedite the process and to minimize discomfort. The healing skin has damaged nerve endings which in a first degree or second degree burn hurts tremendously. Again, third degree is total destruction of all nerves and tissues so is painless, except, as stated above, if there remains first or second degree burn around the third degree burn.

It is important to understand that bacteria loves dead tissue. That is why with the severely burned patients with third degree burns (hopefully, no fourth degree) and large surface area burns, infection is an enormous risk. Yes, even small area burns can get infected. I have had to admit small burns for raging cellulitis because the hand burn became infected. At times this has led to abscesses that required incision and drainage, worsening of the second degree burn to third degree burn and then on to skin grafting, joint involvement, tendon involvement, loss of motion, etc. The best thing that happened with this initial case is that the dead blister was debrided (or so it sounds), that the wound was bandaged and that ointment was applied frequently.

As for home remedies, they are "quick fixes" and have been tested by people throughout the centuries. Years ago, moms would grab butter sticks from the old ice box because butter was soothing and cool to a child's burn. Many of my patients from "south of the border" that get burned in the US smear toothpaste on their burns as it soothes their burns as well. How many of us have grabbed an ice cube from the frig and soothed a finger burn after we errantly touched the stove? The problem with anything ice cold is that it causes vasoconstriction and starves the area of burn from getting blood and can therefore extend the zone (or area) of injury, so please avoid putting burns in ice or iced water. If someone is barbequeing and they catch, yes, push them in the pool or spray them with the garden hose but usually swimming pools in July do not have ice cubes in them. They are luke warm and so it puts the fire out and cools the wound but does not make the wound ischemic. But also rememeber that hypothermia kills, so the burn victim gets dried off and wrapped in a blanket to keep warm as 911 is called.

The American Burn Association, which is the accrediating body for all US burn centers and is further given its accrediation by the American College of Surgery, recommends that all hand burns should be seen at a burn center. Hands are valuable and they are irreplaceable. They are often treated with disregard as we bang them around in our daily lives, but they are so invaluable to what every human does everyday. Today, hand surgery is its own defined subspecialty in medicine with its own training programs. So, we strongly urge that if you have a hand or finger burn, please come in to one of the 43 burn centers or one of the 120 burn units around the US. If you do not have a local one, go to the local emergency room and get advice from the ED physician. Many plastic surgeons and general surgeons have burn experience as well, but the wound should be seen by a physician. These are small injuries but they can be devastating if not cared for and followed. I have seen amputations of hands and digits due to too many carefree attitudes and the mindset that, "Well, it will be better tomorrow". There is something one of my professors taught me many years ago, and I quote, "You don't know what you don't know". He was right for as I study and see patients everyday I learn more all the time. That is why general surgeons train for 5 to 8 years after medical school and we still learn new things everyday (I did even today from your website and is the reason I joined).

Many diseases are self-limiting. Thank goodness this one sounds like it was. But be careful! Simple problems can sadly be the tip of the iceberg. If you use a home remedy remember it is not in place of sound medical advice.

Thank you,

Dutch
Sir,

Thank you for taking the time to post this information. It is absolutely invaluable.
I cannot tell you how many times people thought "it was nothing" and it turned out to be something absolutely terrible and debilitating. My latest case was a high pressure injection injury / chemical destruction with FREON into the dominant hand. Very ugly 48 hours after (when I saw him and asked what happened -> subsequently bringing him in for treatment / debridement and transfer. Eventual outcome was (unfortunately) poor.
On behalf of us "lesser medical beings"...your time and input is greatly appreciated.

v/r
Joe

Firearmz
01-18-2008, 08:22
I am not a medical professional but I did suffer 2nd and 3rd degree burns on my left leg, left arm and 1st degree burns on the face. As stated already in the 3rd degree burn areas I felt virtually no pain, how ever the 2nd degree burs on the larger portion of my leg and arms were terrible. I was in an ER within about 20 minutes of the incident and the two priorities I kept hearing was infection and dehydration. I hallucinated a lot, I seen everything from spiders to bears trying to get me. As I was only 12 at the time (yes years ago) and medical practice was a bit different then as they are now. I was in a burn unit for almost a month, having the wounds treated, physical therapy and whirl pool baths that were suppose to remove dead tissue. I have had broken bones, teeth knocked out, and cut but of all injuries I have ever sustained the burn was by far the worst for me as far as pain and sheer discomfort.

I would tell anyone if you suffer a burn go see the physician, get expert care!

cold1
01-18-2008, 23:29
Sir,
My latest case was a high pressure injection injury / chemical destruction with FREON into the dominant hand.

Not to hijack the thread, could I get some more detail of this injury. I have been in the refrigeration feild for sometime and I have not heard of such an injury. I am curious as to how it happened.

Doc Dutch,
Thank you sir. The Burn specialist takes a very special kind of person. Highest respect to you and your kind.

BC
Volunteer Fire Fighter

AF IDMT
01-20-2008, 14:25
I'll repeat, because it's worth repeating: The level of expertise on this discussion forum is simply amazing.

+1 And it just boggles my mind that it's all here for free.

MAB32
01-21-2008, 17:46
Doc Dutch,

First off Sir, thank you for the great information you have provided us about burns and your service to those people including children that look to you and your staff for help.:)

Secondly, I would like to know your opinion of the old adage: "When in doubt, go to the hospital! would apply to burns too?

Lastly, we here in Northeastern Ohio are fortunate to have Akron Children's Hospital Burn Center and they are magnificent at what they do, especially with children.

Team Sergeant
01-21-2008, 18:29
Just an FYI

Doc Dutch is the "Director of Trauma" for a large Phoenix hospital. He also specializes in burns and he works with the burn surgeons that saved Jason Schechterle's life (Drs. Daniel Caruso, Kevin Foster). I know all of them as Doc T works with them on a daily basis. Trust me when I say Doc Dutch knows his stuff....;)

http://www.azstarnet.com/clips/trialbyfire/day3.html

LeakyBandage
09-24-2010, 23:43
Today I worked a call involving a pretty serious burn. Let me describe the situation, and then I have a question for the experts here.

The pt was Hispanic with so-so English skills, so getting a good history was a little problematic. He was working on his truck and somehow released hot fluid from the radiator. I don't think it came from the cap, because he had no burns to the chest/neck/face, which you'd expect from a guy standing over the radiator. I suspect he was on his back messing around with the inlet/outlet lines or a leak; the burn pattern looked like the fluid dropped onto his abdomen and then flowed down into the groin and thigh. He was burned across the lower abdomen, right hip, right thigh, into the right groin (including the scrotum), and on the right forearm. The abdominal and hip burns had split skin across them. The other lower area burns were fiery on scene and developed blisters during transport. The forearm burn was reddened but did not blister during our contact time.

On scene we found the pt standing in the shower dousing the burns with water, so he had done a good job of cooling things down already. We covered the burns with dry dressings, started a line with LR, gave him some morphine and got truckin'.

Upon evaluation at the ED (a level 1 trauma center), the doc decided to send this pt to the burn center at Augusta, Georgia. He felt the overall status of the burns was not too bad for them to handle locally but the involvement of the scrotum was what pushed him to send the pt to the burn center.

So now to my questions, spurred by this call: what are your recommendations for dealing with a non-trivial burn in a wilderness/austere situation involving extended evac? Wet dressings or dry? Bacitracin ointment or not? Occlusive dressings or breathable? In my research and in personally questioning various docs I have gotten a wide range of answers that are sometimes divergent.

Most of the info out there (especially textbooks) assumes quick transport to expert care.

swatsurgeon
09-27-2010, 09:42
alot to answer.......
- wet if less than 5% Total body surface area (TBSA), dry if larger. Wet will bring down the patient's temperature then hypothermia is an issue.
- antibiotic ointment is perfect
- I always carry my 'anti-inflammatory cocktail' when out in austire conditions as well as in my swat gear: a) antiinflammatories aspirin and ibuprofen, b) strong multivitamin like centrum or the like with high vit A,C,E, c) antihistamine (H-1), preferably non-sedating as well as an H2 blocker like pepcid or zantac.
Notice, no oral or IV antibiotics, burns generally don't need them in the field.
All of these act on the bodies ability to rev up the inflammatory cascade which I don't want rev'ed up. I give them for a burn, a GSW, crushed limb, etc. This cocktail will attack pain on several fronts and the bodies general reaction to a major/moderate insult from the burn. I use the same thing in the hospital on patients....it does work.

ss

Sacamuelas
09-27-2010, 10:47
-- antibiotic ointment is perfect
- 'anti-inflammatory cocktail': ibuprofen, centrum , antihistamine (H-1 blocker), zantac.
ss

THanks Syd. Will be Updating my FAK for travel with multivit and zantac. I already had the other goodies. Good tips :cool:

LeakyBandage
09-29-2010, 20:54
Exactly the kind of info I was looking for, SwatSurgeon; thank you.

...antihistamine (H-1), preferably non-sedating

Which one do you recommend? I carry Benadryl now but that's definitely sedating for most.