View Full Version : M4 carbine: US Air Force vs US Army
https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_04/W52H0904D00860000/000000.pdf
Looking at the stipulations in the above contract, is the USAF configuration/accessory package significantly different from the Army style?
Ret10Echo
01-08-2008, 11:58
7. M4 Carbines in support of United States Air Force (USAF) Requirements will be provided without Carrying Handles. Back-Up Iron
Sights (BUIS), Part Number 12996812 along with a copy of the mounting instructions for use in the field will be provided as GFM. Colt
will mount the BUIS on the weapon prior to T&A in accordance with attachment 010 of the solicitation, entitled M4 Carbine Specification
Modification. The mounting instructions received with each BUIS shall be overpacked with each USAF weapon. In addition, one each M68
Optic, Part Number 12974278 and Technical Manual TM 9-1240-413-12&P (Basic plus change 1) will be provided as GFM and shall be
overpacked with each USAF weapon. The M68 Optic manual will fit in the box with the Optic.
Team Sergeant
01-08-2008, 12:05
https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_04/W52H0904D00860000/000000.pdf
Looking at the stipulations in the above contract, is the USAF configuration/accessory package significantly different from the Army style?
Air Force models will only be capable of firing blank rounds and will require a eight digit passcode to unlock the trigger mechanism each and every time the trigger is pulled.;)
A small printer will be attached via rail system to print out a report after each pulling of said trigger, and a friendly reminder will notify you when the weapon is not on safe.
brownapple
01-09-2008, 03:07
A small printer will be attached via rail system to print out a report after each pulling of said trigger, and a friendly reminder will notify you when the weapon is not on safe.
Forgot the red tags hanging from the barrel, the safety and taped over the magazine well and magazine lips, each marked "remove before firing".
Those are a lot of attachments for weapons that will remain in the arms room...
Wait, does the AF even have those????
:D
The Reaper
01-09-2008, 06:17
Actually, the AF personnel I have seen with M-4s tended to have a nasty mix of old Vietnam era through current issue parts, with XM-16 lowers and CQB-R uppers clapped together with an assortment of optics in a seeming haphazard manner.
This looks to me like they might be planning to buy some new rifles to replace those with.
Maybe they figured out where this war is taking place and reprioritized a little money.
TR
Team Sergeant
01-09-2008, 09:14
When I deployed to Desert Shield there was a company of AF types on the same C-5. While we were waiting in a hanger a AF female walked over to where I and CSM were sitting and asked if we were in Special Forces? We answered yes and she then asked if we could give her a quick class on the M-16. CSM "Joe D" laughed and looked at me and said "time to teach class". I started teaching a class and before 10 minutes was over the entire company, to include the female Maj was sitting there in M-16 class. Class went on for over two hours.
Many sitting there stated they had never fired a weapon. Class went on another hour. Before I was through I told them not to worry as we Army ground combatants were more than a match for the Iraqis and we would not allow the enemy to penetrate two hundred miles into our rear area. :rolleyes:
The weapons were Vietnam era weapons, some only had four digit serial numbers! I've seen better weapons in third world countries.
TS
TS, Great story. I guess is points to a common said bias about the AF command, that unless it flys very fast, very high and cost a lot, they are not interested.
It was a good thing you were there to help them.
Monsoon65
01-09-2008, 10:02
Air Force models will only be capable of firing blank rounds and will require a eight digit passcode to unlock the trigger mechanism each and every time the trigger is pulled.;)
Close, TS.
It's only a six digit passcode, and you have to have a CAC card reader installed on the weapon before you can use it. And an officer has to sign you off as being qualified.
When I was with the Third Herd, we had weapons that had the three prong flash suppressor on them. I held one by the lower, grasped the carry handle and could rock the upper back and forth about an inch either way. Real nice stuff!
HOLLiS,
from the late 70s through the 80s and the run up to the first Gulf War the Air Force ( except for the Aircraft pilots, CCT, PJs and Security troops ) were really "office/job" focused.
It really was a come as you are war and the Air Force was going to "Be there on the ground". The Air Force was really scrambling for individual combat equipment - as well as bunchs of other troops.
Any stateside factories making desert related gear for the military went into maximum overtime production. I think the MOPP gear plants were running three shifts.
I was a USAF Ammo Troop from 1978-1998. The buzzword in the late 1970's/early 1980's was "management" and not so much "leadership". I went to the old PME I and II and that's what you mainly heard.
When I came in most, if not all, the NCO's were Vietnam veterans and we enjoyed listening to their stories (Hell, I was only 18). My first supervisor built bombs by the thousand for the "Arc Light" missions. For the youngsters here, "Arc Light" was B-52 strikes in direct support of the ground forces. Usually 3-plane cells of B-52D's (IIRC), each carrying 108 Mk 82's or M117's. They really impacted enemy morale.
Usually 3-plane cells of B-52D's (IIRC), each carrying 108 Mk 82's or M117's. They really impacted enemy morale.
Not to mention one heck of a light show for friendlies.
Pete, thanks. One of my all time favorite fix wing is the A10 and to think the AF was going to junk it. There is a thread on that plane, the thinking is that it should probably be under Army and or USMC control rather than AF. Obviously easier said than done, with all the logistic that would have to done to make the switch. Being a grunt, those things with flix wings was always over my head (pun intended), as if they came from another world.
AngelsSix
01-14-2008, 18:33
Don't even get me started..................:rolleyes:
Defender968
01-14-2008, 19:33
TS, Great story. I guess is points to a common said bias about the AF command, that unless it flys very fast, very high and cost a lot, they are not interested.
It was a good thing you were there to help them.
Ok so I feel like I should speak up for your little blue "sister" service, I say that tounge and cheek because I'm often the first one to call the Air Force gay in many of it’s practices.
Hollis is correct, if it's not sexy and can't fly at 30k+ feet, real fast the AF brass for the most part don't care, partially because they are very slow to adapt to new situations, but mainly because 99% of our "leaders" wear pajamas with a full length zipper and if it doesn't have something to do with flying they don't care. They know stick back world gets smaller, stick forward, world gets bigger, and for the most part that’s about it. I’ve personally heard a fighter jock O-6 type seriously consider attacking a bus full of civilians with one guy armed with a 9mm, during a hostage exercise on a CONUS base. On the job we say “you can’t make this shit up!”
I will say another contributing factor is the brass are still trying to figure out that there is no real rear battle area, which historically is what we were responsible for, now the front edge of the battle area may very well be the perimeter of the base my guys must defend, hell that's why my beloved Air Force are saluting in Iraq right now, sexy and tactical right!:rolleyes:
The other thing I've got to say is 85% of the AF will never need, nor could use a weapon if they had too, basically they're sheep, I'm not talking about my TACP, CCT, PJ, and of course my Defender brethren, just the rank and file, your Mission support troops, Med Group folks, and others etc . Now knowing they won't and couldn't use a weapon even if they had too, the AF policy (and I'm not defending it) is that there are different arming classes, the lowest of which don't fire that often. I'm not going to go into the specifics on the net but my troops get much more trigger time, still not as much as they should but enough to keep them competent.
Lastly all Security Forces Squadrons have converted to M-4s, with the M68 optic, and all the goodies, and we know how to use them, not nearly as well as a quiet professional I will be the first one to admit, but much better than any of the other AF types and I would bet better than most non combat Army troops.
Just my .02
No argument there. In a 20 year USAF career I made a grand total of 6 trips to the range to fire the M16. Bullets is expensive, y'know? :D
The Air Force has always been behind the curve when it comes to the possibilities of ground combat.
When Tet, 1968 broke out, one of the NVA's prime targets was Ton Sohn Nhut Air Base near saigon. The Air Police had bunkers with M-16s and M-60 machine guns. The only problem was that each Airman armed with an M-16 had only between 40 and 100 rounds. The M-60s had between 300 and 500 rounds each. Air Policeman were risking their lives running around trying to find an officer with keys to the ammo lockers to resupply.
You couldn't have found anyone happier than the Air Police when the 3/4 Cav of the 25th Division showed up in their APCs and took over the line, unless it was the Cav guys who could actually see the enemy to shoot at them.
RLTW,
Mike
ps.
Another Lurp and I were in a hotel room at the Victoria with two ruck sacks of the "new" baseball grenades and a fifth of Jack Daniels each. The MPs came by the following morning asking if we saw where all the morter rounds came from that landed on the VC in the SeaBee yard behind the hotel.