View Full Version : What is this?
I have about 8K rounds of 9mm ball that I picked up somewhere at least 10 years ago, I think from a Shotgun News ad but I can't remember for sure. I do know it was ridiculously cheap (hence the quantity), but again, I can't recall the exact price. With .40 and .45 as steep as it is I'd like to start practicing with it in a newish Sig228. It is very clean shooting, accurate, has low muzzle flash, and feels quite snappy in comparison with Federal white box (I don't have access to a chrono).
Google reveals some speculation about it being surplus Danish Norma 115 grain with the usual dueling 'expert' opinions: a) You'll poke your eye out b) Go ahead it's fine.
The 36 rounds are on a strange stripper clip block. The strippers don't snap apart into 6-round units; this is a very sturdy affair meant to be used as you see it. I speculate it's for subgun use, but then again what do I know? I can't get a decent photo of the headstamp but it has '8' at 9 o'clock, '1' at 3, and '070' at 6. No NATO stamp on the cartridge but there is on the box and case.
Does anyone know what weapon this 9mm ball is packaged for? Any speculation about its use in a Sig228?
Thanks.
8769
8770
8771
8772
The Reaper
01-05-2008, 15:48
Do you have access to a chrony and a scale?
While you cannot completely determine the pressure of the rounds without a strain gauge, if you know the weight of the bullet and the muzzle velocity, you could tell if it is running hot. A close examination of a few fired cases would help.
My suspicion is that it is, in fact SMG ammo, and was made in 1981 before being surplused out. A lot of it appears to have been sold several years back, and I do not recall a big complaint of blown 9mm pistols at that time.
The 228 is a strong pistol, but has an alloy frame. I would try it out in the heaviest all steel pistol that I had access to.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Based on the lot number and if there is a headstamp 070 on them, then they were made at the Ammunitionsfabriken Karlsborg, (Nammo/Vanäsverken) in Sweden.
The Danish Ammunitionsarsenal Copenhagen would have AA markings.
God I love this website......so much to learn!!
Thanks TR and Tuuka
+1 on the 228. Good shooter and reliable. I took my personal one to Blackwater in early OCT and fired approx. 2000-2100 rds through it without a single failure or malfunction. Beretta 92's/M9's were dropping left and right. Old arms room pistols have 99% to do with it, but I've run about 14,000 rounds through this pistol and it's still damn good. And it was a refurb.
You won't be sorry, unless you realize you could pick up a 226 for about the same price. :D
Team Sergeant
01-05-2008, 18:31
Do you have access to a chrony and a scale?
While you cannot completely determine the pressure of the rounds without a strain gauge, if you know the weight of the bullet and the muzzle velocity, you could tell if it is running hot. A close examination of a few fired cases would help.
My suspicion is that it is, in fact SMG ammo, and was made in 1981 before being surplused out. A lot of it appears to have been sold several years back, and I do not recall a big complaint of blown 9mm pistols at that time.
The 228 is a strong pistol, but has an alloy frame. I would try it out in the heaviest all steel pistol that I had access to.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
mugwump,
Let me translate The Reapers post for you, don't shoot it in your Sig.
Unless you are a shooting guru don't purchase ammo that you don't know what it is, no matter what the price.
I don't buy cheap beer and I don't shoot cheap ammo.;)
TS
Peregrino
01-05-2008, 20:41
MW - What they've said. It's almost certainly an SMG loading. Don't get rid of it though - 8K is a significant quantity of "stash". You've already made the investment, now get some value out of it. I too advise against shooting it in an alloy framed pistol. We destroyed "a few" M9s shooting the brown box 9mm (Canadian IIRC) in the late 80s, early 90s. BHPs handle it just fine (and they're relatively inexpensive). RRA also makes a nice AR platform 9mm SMG (probably illegal where you live though :p) that'll appreciate the extra "zip".
Thanks everyone. I'll heed the collective wisdom and won't shoot it in the 228. I was thinking the 228 because my go-to pistol is a 229.
Question: If I can chrony this and I have the bullet weight, will that tell me enough about the round to know if it's safe to shoot? I'm guessing that the pressure curve can be independent to the velocity and I could still have a problem. The reason I ask: I was planning on giving most of this to some young shooters I know who are having to give up shooting because of high bullet costs. But I sure don't want to be giving them a big problem.
Peregrino - Thanks for the suggestion. I have a shooter BHP that doesn't get out much because I have only one mag for it. I need to get more anyway. Then there's always the daughter's G19, orphaned when her cousin gave her a USP compact he hated (hated the dao variant, not the platform).
Tuukka - thanks for the info. The hive-mind on this board is impressive.
The Reaper
01-06-2008, 19:25
mugwump:
I would chrony and weigh it, then check the first several cases you fire for pressure signs.
The BHP can probably take it, as could a CZ-75. I would NOT shoot it in a Glock, especially a G19.
TR
Gene Econ
01-12-2008, 21:48
Roger, no G19. Thanks.
Dude:
Make sure someone brings a camera to take pictures when the pistol gives up the ghost. Those are always cool to look at. I say someone because they need to get some shots of your face and hands when your pistol decides it has had enough! No sweat. Here are some indicators that tell you such shooting is probably no longer sound.
1. Your slide rattles so much that it is about to fall off the rails.
2. You have already broken three to five extractors, two firing pins, and have worn out two ejector pins.
3. You look at the brass and see that you can't read the head stamp because the rim is flattened.
4. You look on your slide on the bolt face and see it is coated with brass that has soldered itself to slide. Better yet, the head stamp has inverted itself into the steel of the slide!
5. You have to double up the recoil springs to keep the slide from locking back on a loaded magazine.
If you want to shoot this through a pistol made of plastic composits like a Glock for example, please, get three or four guys to film it from various directions so we can see where your fingers and hand parts end up! Also, watching pieces of the pistol entering a guy's face and eyes is very educational for those of us who are still able to see.
My advice is to blast it through a 9mm carbine of some sort.
Gene
Would a USP 9 be able to handle this?? I would venture a guess at yes. They are rated for +P+ (not recommended for premature wear or continued shooting). Shooting SMG ammo in a pistol is like running South African .308 Battlepack ammo in a White Feather M1A, your choice and your dime.
I've run some pretty damn hot loads in my 45 Tactical and 40 with no problems (minus the tingling sensation) they were all handloads and we had chrono'd 200gr 45ACP at 1400-1450 (CorBon runs the same bullet weight at 1250). I would recommend against this to anyone since I am a novice and in no way constitute a professional opinion on this board. Plus your hands will thank you. If you want a similar feeling, shoot the hottest .357 load you can find out of an airweight S&W, you'll feel it I guarantee. :D
Polymer guns aren't the friendliest when it comes de-resonating. Steel at least absorbs a lot more given it's structure and grain. I've shot side by side the same model glocks with same ammo and have had different feelings from both (mostly in the pit of my stomach for shooting a glock ;) ). They are molded in a way that there is no discernable pattern that is consistent. With barstock steel you at least have consistency.
I'm sure there is a thread around here that Mr. Harsey has put together about steel that would explain much more than I ever could.
Since most of the QP's and Tuuka have made the determination that this is SMG ammo just buy a SMG. No harm done in that:D