View Full Version : OK, let's talk about the Wall
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 02:22
I see it's just me and the Israeli guys on the board. Tell me what you think about the wall, Sharon's plan and Likud's rejection of it.
Others can join in later if they want. :)
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 02:35
Earth to danjam and hoepoe!
PING!
Ugh. Damned airline lost my luggage and I'm sitting here waiting for it with no one on the board. NDD, finish that job up so you can get back to where you belong. LOL
Hiay RL
We work too you know!! LOL
In the last month, thw wall prevented 11 suicide bombings. Since the wall has been built, suicides bobmbers have only struck where there is no wall. Pretty self explanatory, no?
Sharons plan is excellent, the only mistake he made was holding a party refferendum and not a country wide refferendum where he would have one landslide.
We have no bussiness in Gaza, i've been there, so has Danjam,mbut we need to move out.
If all the manpower used inside Gaza was used on a solid border, we'de be much better off. Ok, so the Plas will build an army, and get weapons freely, but thats no justification to stay there.
Whether we like it or not, the Pals are now a people and i don;t doubt that terror will continue once they are autonimous, the should have a state.
We should also leave the West Back ofd the Jordan, true there are many Jewish religious places there, but as far as i'm concerned, my belief is what makes me a Jew, not a grave of a prophet. I do not think losing more lives is worth it to defend a grave. Call me stupid, just the way i feel. Defending my country, my home and loved ones, as well as my heritige, ok, but not a land that is majority Palestinian, we have no bussiness there.
Israels buggest mistake was holding onto that land, granted we offered it to Egypt and Jordan post '67 war, but they didn;t want it either.
The Likud has greatly dissaponted me and made such a rash, stuipid move by rejecting Sharons plan.
I belive, only a man of war, a man that has killed and seen killed can truly understand the perception of sacrifice for peace.
One must not underestimate Sharon, he is no fool and a strong leader.
i need to eat now, wil lcontinue later.
hoepoe
Correction, no, not my bas spelling, but just to point out:
The Wall is actually mainly a fence.
The wall. And Sharon's plan. mmm
Firstly, I think Sharon was wrong to go to his party for a vote. The vote to get out of Gaza.
Having been in that part of the country I say we should have gotten out of there a long time ago. Waste of man power, and lives. If he takes this vote to the general public, then this plan will pass no problem.
Of course the attack and murder of the pregnant mother and her 4 girls did not help Sharon at the time, and this could well have turned the vote around, even though a small percentage of voters did infact vote.
The wall, should be built. I know that it cuts through land etc.. and it is not the prettiest thing in the world, however it is already stopping the terrorists. It saves Israeli lives, and this is a priority for any polititian and a demand by the general public.
For example my last duty was in a nice little area between Jenin and Shchem. (great 4x4 country) Near a village called Tubas. This area has become sort of a funnel, since the wall is blocking terrorist movements from going into Israel proper, so they go towards the Jordanian border...into our hands ;-) or north/south. In other words it is doing it's job.
The possiblity that the wall will become a permanent border in my opinion is very likely. This is going to become a future sore spot diplomatically and contention of this is most probable.
It's funny, maybe not so, however in 1996 the army was already planning for this war, the next one is already known as well.
The settlements in Judea and Shamron, well, I wish we only had nice Israeli's but we don't. Some are just plain old mean, and don't give a flying ... about world opinion. Some are just damn stupid (young and ignorant) And some who believe that what they are doing is right by god. There is going to be hard feelings and source of conflict here for a long time to come.
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 03:09
I think Sharon is being smart. It would be strategically nice to take the West Bank, but there is no morally acceptable way to deal with the population there IMO.
There are a couple of factors (important) that need to be considered.
One, is that Israeli's although the majority are not Synagogue going "religious" Jews, are affected to move toward the "right" when attacked. The mentality is defensive. When we get attacked we fight back, and if no then their is a public backlash for the decision makers. By the "right" I mean that most of the people who are right of center in political matters are religious.
So one is religious and another is combativeness.
The Judea and Shamron (notice I call them this, instead of the "occupied territories" or "West Bank"..) is part of Israel, religiously and historically. I know that Heopoe does not agree with me, however (two jews, three opinions ;-) ) Alot of people think, and believe that the only reason that Jews are not in these a yoreas is because they were kicked out. And now we are back. For example Hebron has been a home to Jews, continuously, If I am not mistaken the only reason why there was a break is because of a killing spree by Arabs.
Some history foru..
In 1929, Arabs murdered 67 men women and children. Under British supervision at the time, Hevron's Arabs chased the rest of the Jews out of the city. "Cleansing it".
You see, history is easily forgotten by many, however the people living there now (Jews) have not forgotten, and they are still pissed about it. The British removed the Jews again in 1936, those that dared to move back again. Abraham is supposed to have been buried there. The prophets made our nation, to not remember them is to, or not honour them is like giving up on our history, and I for one am compelled not to forget history. There is a whole world of debate here... another time perhaps.
Gaza fine, let's get out, Lebanon as well, don't like the way it was done ... but Judea and Sumaria, let's just stop and think about this a while ..
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 03:40
Originally posted by danjam
Gaza fine, let's get out, Lebanon as well, don't like the way it was done ... but Judea and Sumaria, let's just stop and think about this a while ..
OK, let's think about it. How do you propose to govern the existing population of this area? It seems to me there are only a few principal options: separate from it, outnumber it, pacify it, contain it, move it or exterminate it. There are significant issues with respect to feasibility and moral acceptability of these options.
Jordan does not want a Palestinian state bordering it. Many a time they will stop terrorist coming into Israel from their side. This is however, at this time. In the future it could be a whole different picture, and if and when the King dies, or gets outed, which can happen, the Jordanian border with a possible Palestinian one would be unacceptable and would be as porous as the Syrian/Iraqi one, if not more so.
Although the trust is arms length. Their military is good, small but good for the most part. If we had to fight them, it would be a tough battle. I don't doubt that we would win, and we do train for the scenario. Hence our presence in Judea/Sumaria is, in my opinion very important.
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 03:46
Originally posted by danjam
Jordan does not want a Palestinian state bordering it. Many a time they will stop terrorist coming into Israel from their side. This is however, at this time. In the future it could be a whole different picture, and if and when the King dies, or gets outed, which can happen, the Jordanian border with a possible Palestinian one would be unacceptable and would be as porous as the Syrian/Iraqi one, if not more so.
Although the trust is arms length. Their military is good, small but good for the most part. If we had to fight them, it would be a tough battle. I don't doubt that we would win, and we do train for the scenario. Hence our presence in Judea/Sumaria is, in my opinion very important.
I don't question the strategic importance one bit. But you are not answering the question.
You left out, economically. This is the best way in my opinion.
The scenario:
There is a few large settlement blocks, with our own security forces. Most of the areas are, like they were before the war, under Palestinian control. However now it is their country.
Most "outposts" or smaller settlements are taken down.
There would be still a significant Jewish population, remember we are talking about areas that are relatively tiny in actual square milage. Alot of the Jews in the area hire Palestinians to work in agricultural businesses. This is pretty accurate to this date by the way, hence the long checkpoint lines are people coming in and out of Israel proper.
Economically is probably the best choice as well, since there is no way that Israelis will allow a "move it or exterminate it." solution.
Danjam, you misundertand me, i agree that thw West bank is historically part of greater Israel, i just feel that we have to change with the times, in other owrds, don;t be correct, be clever!
As far as a comparison in Lebanon, our big mistake was not leaving the way we left, but rather staiybg there so long, we arte making the same mistake here, already have.
Another innacuracy is that you percive all Synagogue going religious Jews as right wingers, big, bad misconception.
I happen to be very friendly with some religious Synagogue going left wingers. Don't forget, sterotyping is a great error to make.
Many of the fa,ilies living in the West Bank are not religious right wing fanatics, but many New Immigrants from both the former USSR as well as North America,that live simply because it's tax free, cheaper and beatiful. i know people that live there.
Most of these are actually willing to leave if offered a good deal by the stae of israel. Gaza has most of the fanatics, one again North Americand and Israelis.
The fence is happening and wil continue to happen along it;s current route unless the US threatens to hold back financial support for Israel.
The pull out wil lgo ahead, the question is when and how, Once arafat goes and new leadership is in place, this may provide for an oppurtunity for a negotioated two sided pullout. But if this takes too long, we need to swallow our ego's cut oue losses and pull out.
Hoepoe
"By the "right" I mean that most of the people who are right of center in political matters are religious. " --quoting my post.
I never said that they were fanatics.
The question of people who are willing to move out is not really a question or area of contention, rather the people who will not move are.
Swollowing egos is definately needed, however leaving without taking into mind that Hizollah said to the Palestinians, that armed aggression will work, were proven correct, is going to haunt us again. A difference in perception however theirs is what counts to them, and this justifies their actions...to them.
Just to add --quoting again my post:
"One, is that Israeli's although the majority are not Synagogue going "religious" Jews, are affected to move toward the "right" when attacked.
Cutting our losses and pulling out will not solve anything, and I personally think it would be bad policy.
Ok, right/relogous point understood.
I hate to be the one to breakl it to you, but violence does work.
We left Lebanon and we are leaving the Gaza and West Bank. Just like violence worked in 47 to rid the Brits, just liie violence worked in the US with the Brits, just like violence has worked througout the ages.
Sad, but true.
What we need to do is wake up and make decisions based on what we have today. What we have is a land filled with Palestinians, that is costing us a fortune to contain, a fortune to guard the fools that live there and no strategic benefit at all, anymore.
Pullout now, those that are willing should be relocated, given housing plus relocation grants. Should be as easy as possible for them.
Those that don;t want to, can stay, fuck 'em. I'm not keen to leave my kid without a father to protect these fuckers.
Let the pals fend for themselves, let them go to arafat for education, medicine and all other needs that we allow them here for. If they want to come here, they need a passport and visa.
Increase trade effortts between Israel & Pals should be increased, this would help mend the damage caused from years of conflict.
Don't get me wrong, i don't like them, i just understandm they're here to stay, just like us and they're on our doorstep.
Oh i almost forgot, make arafat be gone.
It is easier to protect a real , defined border, it is easier to fight a real enemy (as in army, not guerilla) if the need be.
Hoepoe
"Violence works", this is not new to me. I don't think we need to run from it though.
If you think that once we pull out that the violence will stop, well...I wish it were so, but I don't think so.
When they get their country, and they will I have no doubt, this will not stop terrorists. Their police and their army will not engage in warefare, at least not in traditional forms.
It has already been established that "facts on the ground" make it impossible to leave the WB, and what would you suggest, forcing thousands to leave their homes? We are not talking about Gaza, or the Sinai, this is far closer.
The strategic value is debatable. I think it is very strategic, although it is costly. To prove this, P. Bush agreed that the larger settlement blocks cannot be uprooted.
Econonmically, trade, well I am in agreement there, as I stated in my post before.
DanJam, my friend., i never said we should run from it, but we also shouldn't be tied into a though process of "they used violence, so we can't give in to look weak".
An as far as the big blocks go, Efrat etc., i am in total agreement, and should have made this clear, thse should be included within the border and have al the smaller settlements, if they want to, join them.
I know thw vuiolence won;t stop, ever, but it will be easier to manage, read my previous post.
Looks like this has turned into a 2 man discussion ;-)
Hoepoe
Originally posted by hoepoe
Looks like this has turned into a 2 man discussion ;-)
Maybe, but I am certainly learning from reading it. :)
Looking at the discussion is a good example of the discussions going on in public here as well. Each person has a different view.
Add in world opinion, the enemies opinion, and we go no where unless we have a leader who says, we are doing this!
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 10:30
Look at the time the discussion was going on, hoepoe. I went to bed at 3 am. Perhaps others will join in today.
RL, how are you?
My comment was a tension breaker between DanJam and me, no more ;-) Great topic.
I;m off to bed.
Lila Tov
Hoepoe
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 14:47
Originally posted by hoepoe
RL, how are you?
My comment was a tension breaker between DanJam and me, no more ;-) Great topic.
I;m off to bed.
Lila Tov
Hoepoe
I am supposed to be at a conference, but I am working in my hotel room instead. Lovely view of Alcatraz, Coit Tower and the Golden Gate Bridge, though . . .
I thought I might have seen Sacamuelas walking down the street. Do you think this is him?
Sacamuelas
05-06-2004, 15:28
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I thought I might have seen Sacamuelas walking down the street. Do you think this is him?
LOL.... You confuse me with your other "Village" friends. BTW, With that fancy tool belt, no wonder you are starting threads about building things! LOL:p
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 16:32
Very artistic. Fag. LOL
Team Sergeant
05-06-2004, 20:19
Hey, lets get back to the discussion.... I'm in the learning mode.
Bill Harsey
05-06-2004, 20:29
I'm here learning here too.
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 23:02
You heard the Team Sergeant. Full briefing.
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 23:09
The UN sucks, but this is not a horribly bad link. More to come:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 23:14
I like this guy:
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1532
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2004, 23:20
General background:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0516/p06s01-wome.html
The wall is neccessary to continue to stop:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfa%20publications/audio-visual/Palestinian%20Terrorism-%20Flash%20presentations
I will find some wall specific infoa bit later.
Hoepoe
presentation on the fence
http://w3.castup.net/mfa/presentations.htm
Roycroft201
05-07-2004, 12:09
Really interesting thread.
Roycroft201
Although Hoepoe and I disagree on the status of the WB or the politics about it, I think we agree fully that the wall is a necessary thing. This is not covering the full impact of the wall and all who live within or without it. In other words we are, I shall speak for myself.. I am blatantly bias.
Taking into mind that the "wall" will become most certainly (in my opinion) a border, this can only help "peace" become more of a reality since there is something on the ground, physically helping it. Once it is there, you cannot ignore it.
Professionaly speaking, once it is up and the security systems are in place, well, I don't know what type of systems you guys have say on the Mexican border, (if you know then good if no, then :-) ) here our systems are quite good, and work rather well. It saves lives and this is the whole aim of the "wall". Each time there is an attack, the mention of whether there was or was not a "wall" is a large factor.
Reminds me of Wellington the first time he engaged Napoleon's forces in the Peninsular Campaigns. He battled the French in mid-Spain while building a wall system around Lisbon, the Torres Vedras Line, before falling back inside.
Solid
Solid, I notice you are in England. There is a couple of walls there.
"When the Roman Emperor Hadrian visited Britain in 122 A.D he recognised the difficulties in establishing control in Caledonia and saw that it would be impossible to introduce the Picts to the Roman way of life. The Emperor therefore ordered the construction of a great defensive wall which would mark the northern limits of his empire and consolidate the hold on those parts of Britain already subdued. Hadrian's empire would not include Caledonia"
Tough lot the Scots.
Ret10Echo
12-10-2009, 09:40
This is somewhat ancient post...but found this little piece of information and I hate to start "New" threads if there is something that has been discussed in the past.
R10
Egyptians build steel Gaza wall
By Christian Fraser
BBC News, Cairo
Egypt has begun constructing a huge metal wall along its border with the Gaza Strip as it attempts to cut smuggling tunnels, the BBC has learned.
When it is finished the wall will be 10-11km (6-7 miles) long and will extend 18 metres below the surface.
The Egyptians are being helped by American army engineers, who the BBC understands have designed the wall.
The plan has been shrouded in secrecy, with no comment or confirmation from the Egyptian government.
The wall will take 18 months to complete.
For weeks local farmers have noticed more activity at the border where trees were being cut down, but very few of them were aware that a barrier was being built.
'Impenetrable'
That is because the barrier, made of super-strength steel, has been hidden deep underground.
The BBC has been told that it was manufactured in the US, that it fits together in similar fashion to a jigsaw, and that it has been tested to ensure it is bomb proof.
“ When we get a political solution, there will be no need for tunnels. I don't think this new wall will affect the smuggling, we are talking about thousands of tunnels ”
Abed Elrahman al-Assouli, Khan Younis, Gaza
It cannot be cut or melted - in short it is impenetrable.
Intelligence sources in Egypt say the barrier is being sunk close to the perimeter wall that already exists.
They claim 4km of the wall has already been completed north of the Rafah crossing, with work now beginning to the south.
The land beneath Egypt and Gaza resembles a Swiss cheese, full of holes and tunnels through which the Palestinians smuggle the everyday items they are denied by the blockade.
But the Israelis say the tunnels are also used to smuggle people, weapons, and the components of the rockets that are fired at southern Israeli towns.
The wall is not expected to stop all the smuggling, but it will force the Palestinians to go deeper and it will likely cut the hundreds of superficial tunnels closer to the surface that are used to move the bulk of the goods.
Masochist
12-10-2009, 12:02
The Egyptians are being helped by American army engineers, who the BBC understands have designed the wall.
The plan has been shrouded in secrecy, with no comment or confirmation from the Egyptian government.
The wall will take 18 months to complete.
For weeks local farmers have noticed more activity at the border where trees were being cut down, but very few of them were aware that a barrier was being built.
'Impenetrable'
That is because the barrier, made of super-strength steel, has been hidden deep underground.
The BBC has been told that it was manufactured in the US ...
A potential test-run for our southwest border?
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/10/inside-a-border-tunnel/
Ret10Echo
12-10-2009, 12:11
A potential test-run for our southwest border?
I just find some twisted humor in the idea of protests to the north...while Egypt builds to the South with little to no fanfare.
--------
It was probably one of the proposals that were not selected by the U.S.. Heck we could use the "clunkers" to build the barrier.