View Full Version : Mountain Warfare School
ADVISOR: Nothing in this post violates any course OPSEC.
At the suggestion of a QP, I thought I would post a quick informational bit on the Army Mountain Warfare School (AMWS) and post some photos from summer phase. Although you'll read below that there are two phases to the basic course, there is talk at the Infantry School about changing it to one three-week course. If you are there in the winter, you'll get more winter training, same for summer courses.
BLUF: A tough, challenging, fun, and very professional course. Although they focus on technical aspects of mountaineering, with very little on the tactics side, a student can readily see the tactical applications of the training and the use of terrain to enhance operational effectiveness.
If you are headed there, here's some pointers to make life easier:
-Know your knots. They can be found in the student handout, found on the benning webpage.
-Be able to ruck uphill (I'm sure the QPs have no problems here).
-At least be familiar with the concept of using an altimeter for land navigation. Although this course shouldn't pose a problem to the QPers (who've seen badder courses), traditional Joes will find it difficult - about a third to half of the class will struggle with it.
Other than that: Do what you're told, listen to the instructors (who are world-class mountaineers themselves), and have fun - if you're not afraid of heights...
MORE TO FOLLOW WHEN I FINISH THE WINTER PHASE CIRCA MID JANUARY...
From the student handout:
Historical Overview
Established in 1983 as a result of “Project Green Mountain”, the United States Army’s Mountain Warfare School (AMWS) currently consists of four progressive courses of instruction (Basic Summer, Basic Winter, Assault Climber Summer, and Assault Climber Winter). The design of each level is to prepare warriors to operate in a mountainous and cold weather environment. The Army Mountain Warfare School is the only TRADOC-approved Schoolhouse authorized to provide the Skill Qualification Identifier (SQI) “E”, Military Mountaineer, to the Army.
The Army Mountain Warfare School was established in April 1983 to train the only mountain unit in the Force Structure, the 3rd Battalion, 172nd Infantry (MTN). The curriculum design broadens the warriors knowledge and hence the unit’s capabilities. The curriculum is designed to enable the warrior to operate in a mountainous and cold weather environment in both the summer and winter and to enable him to assist his command in planning for operations in that terrain and environment. The prime educational technique employed throughout most of the course is the small group participatory learning process.
The Army Mountain Warfare School is the Executive Agent for Military Mountaineering for its proponent, the United States Army Infantry School. The School is responsible for the content of Field Manual 3-97.61, Military Mountaineering. The School is the only non-European Permanent Member of the International Association of Military Mountain Schools (IAMMS).
The Army Mountain Warfare School curriculum is broken down into four two-week courses with three general type of mountain-specific skills taught in each; individual, small unit and medical. The Basic Military Mountaineer Courses must be completed before the Assault Climber Courses. The training focus is on seeding the Force Structure with warriors capable of assisting their unit to move through and sustain themselves in the harsh mountain environment.
TWO OF THE PHOTOS BELOW ARE ACTUALLY A QP WHO WAS IN MY SQUAD. I THOUGHT IT APPROPRIATE TO INCLUDE THEM.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
12-21-2007, 14:46
That looks like the same hunk of rock I trained UVM ROTC kids on in Jerhico,VT.
That looks like the same hunk of rock I trained UVM ROTC kids on in Jerhico,VT.
It very well could be, sir. Ethan Allen Firing Range is indeed used by local ROTC programs for training in Land Nav and patrolling. I didn't know UVM did any climbing there, but Hooah.
There are 2 places that the school teaches basic climbing, this being the tougher of the two, in my opinion.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
12-23-2007, 17:23
This was in the mid 70s. I taught them basic mountaineering, survival, land nav, patrolling, winter warfare, and a host of other leadership tasks during that time. That was back in the time when GE controlled the good fishing spots under the guise of their vulcan testing program and it was just called Ethan Allen Firing Ranges. Then you all got real sexy and needed an acronym so you labeled it CEATS. I also used the area when I was in the 10th SFG(A) in the early 80s.
COL,
That was the place.. AMWS is located in Jerhico,VT.
Great course/school to go to if your a mountain team or your AOR has a lot of mountains withinin it.
Conventional but VERY GOOD school.
Go For Broke
12-24-2007, 22:56
Can anyone compare and contrast with the USMC school at Bridgeport, CA; the USASOC version; or das Heeresbergfuhrerschule auf Mittenwald (forgive the poor German, I'm a PACOM guy :D) Spent 4-"lovely" years in the town of Northfield, never had a chance to go there for MWS - although did get some instruction from the 18-series on ROTC duty during the '91 - '93 time period.
Does 1-10 still get their Mittenwald slots, or has it been banished to the odd corner of the kasserne until we realize the skills we are overlooking?
V/R,
Can anyone compare and contrast with the USMC school at Bridgeport, CA; the USASOC version; or das Heerbergsfuhrerschule auf Mittenwald (forgive the poor German, I'm a PACOM guy :D) Spent 4-"lovely" years in the town of Northfield, never had a chance to go there for MWS - although did get some instruction from the 18-series on ROTC duty during the '91 - '93 time period.
Does 1-10 still get their Mittenwald slots, or has it been banished to the odd corner of the kasserne until we realize the skills we are overlooking?
V/R,
GFB-
Can't comment on the other MTN schools, although I work with a QP who's gone to the USASOC one - he says it's top notch (lvl 2 assault climber, I believe - but don't quote me).
I also attended the Northfield School for Wayward Boys - rook in '96... some time off on Active duty, then graduated in '03 - - - But that's a different discussion altogether :)
This was in the mid 70s. I taught them basic mountaineering, survival, land nav, patrolling, winter warfare, and a host of other leadership tasks during that time. That was back in the time when GE controlled the good fishing spots under the guise of their vulcan testing program and it was just called Ethan Allen Firing Ranges. Then you all got real sexy and needed an acronym so you labeled it CEATS. I also used the area when I was in the 10th SFG(A) in the early 80s.
Not much has changed, sir. EAFR, CEATS, Underhill, Jericho, "the Mountain", Castle Grayskull... it's called many things - depending on the context. GE still runs the Vulcan testing range - scaring the sh*t out of many-a-joe who show up there for training and aren't forewarned.
Can anyone compare and contrast with the USMC school at Bridgeport, CA; the USASOC version; or das Heeresbergfuhrerschule auf Mittenwald (forgive the poor German, I'm a PACOM guy :D) Spent 4-"lovely" years in the town of Northfield, never had a chance to go there for MWS - although did get some instruction from the 18-series on ROTC duty during the '91 - '93 time period.
Does 1-10 still get their Mittenwald slots, or has it been banished to the odd corner of the kasserne until we realize the skills we are overlooking?
V/R,
I'll take a stab at this....
USMC school at Bridgeport, CA great mountain planner course.. as far as for leadership for planning with a mountain environment this would be the school to go to. I really love their high Angle snipe course taught there. With both course there are summer and winter.. well I can say that was the case the last time I looked into the them.
USASOC MTN Course.. It has changed a lot since I went to it.. so I'll let some 3/10 guys and other tap this one out. I like it but back then they didn't teach animal packing and spent to much time on rock climbing. For me military mountaineering is rock climbing.
Das Heeresbergfuhrerschule auf Mittenwald (I.E. Berg Führer school) as far as military mountain leadership and training by far the best. This has a summer and winter courses and as an American YOU MUST know German. Everyday someone within the class will get up and give the weather report in German and all of your orders will be in German. For Europeans is cake.. but not many Americans have the honor of going nor graduating from this school.
They are all different.. Bridgeport is mainly a leaders planning course.. something more for the BC level but they do teach basic mountaineering and fixed line movements.
USASOC is a shorter Berg Führer school; Berg Führer school is better overall. Once you graduate from there you can guide on any mountain in the world. You become a mountain guide. Now for me to send someone to that school, may be great but the time factor of being gone for almost a year doesn't pay the dividends to me. My .02.
The new USASOC course is much better from when I went through and now there was talk about making a winter course. USASOC cover everything in a nut shell, gives you what you need to plan, move and execute in the mountains.
Hopefully this is somewhat of what Ur looking for.
Off Subject.. but mountain teams need to move some type of certification like a SCUBA and MFF ODA. The stuff a MTN team do can be very deadly.
Go For Broke
12-27-2007, 00:04
MtnGoat and gagners,
Thanks for the comparison.
If I understand correctly then, Jericho is more of a small unit / assault climber school and Bridgeport is more of a planner school with some hands on applicaition?
I agree, the mountain teams do need some sort of certification - the teams I have seen vary dependent on the personality of the team leadership. Some are mountaineering teams, while others are downhill skiing teams or sport rock climbing teams. Other than the certification for the individual climbers, I wonder what is being done to validate their mountaineering skills (setting fixed lines, altimeter navigation, leading sabotage missions on enemy alpine retreats to rescue generals - while actually working to uncover double agents oh wait, that was a movie plot...maybe we can just have them climb Schloß McClure for the mod-demos :D ). All kidding aside, I do wonder what sustainment training is done for the guys who do go to any mountaineering course - no proficiency climbs etc that I can recall, compared to the UWO / MFF teams.
V/R,
FWIW - the 18-series on ROTC duty in '91 - '93 was a bergfuhrer and perhaps colored my view of what a mountain team should be able to accomplish.
As far as comparing mountain courses go, it is more of what level of training you are going for. The basic courses taught in VT and AK (I have been to both) are good for every one on the detachment so every one can tie knots, belay, and set natural anchors etc (Level III tasks). Both VT and AK offer advanced courses that focus primarily on lead climbing and some more advanced mountain tasks (Level II tasks). The USASOC course focuses on rescue and teaching others how to be mountaineers (Level I tasks). According to the regulations and publications the only way to be a certified Level I mountaineer is to graduate the USASOC course or to be stationed as an instructor at one of the mountaineering schools (Alaska's NWTC, Vermont's CEATs, or even as an instructor at 5th RTB). And to add some more to the fire there is always the South American courses that are put on every now and then as well as the Bergfuer course.
As for sustainment on a mountain team, it as previously mentioned is up to the team/company/battalion leadership as well as several other factors such as AO, time available between deployments, and money. Other courses of action that have helped are JCET's and MTT's that can some times pop up. While I was in the USASOC course CSM Baer made a command visit and the subject of and identifier and possibly even Pro-Pay was brougt up, but I haven't heard any thing since.
Hope this helps, have a good un'
While I was in the USASOC course CSM Baer made a command visit and the subject of and identifier and possibly even Pro-Pay was brougt up, but I haven't heard any thing since.
Hope this helps, have a good un'
As far as an identifier, the AMWS awards the "E" identifier ("Military Mountaineer") after both phases. Not sure if we're talking apples and oranges here (something different/additional on the SF side).
Not really, but there is no identifier for the Advanced Mountain skill set that most if not all Mountain ODA's have. The idea is kinda like UWO and MFF, it is so we can be tracked at the Perscom level, and possibly be paid eventually, not to mention all 18 series already carry a P or V SQI that supersedes the E. Additionally, the only place you can get the Echo ID is Vermont, so if a guy lucks out and gets to go to the USASOC course without VT, well, you get the idea. Just my .02, have a good un'
You mean it can be especially dangerous on the sharp end of a two-pitch, night assault climb? Who knew? :rolleyes:
For a short time, I heard rumors of USASOC taking over the Mtn Leder Course to free up the ODAs that normally teach it to do ODA stuff, and to provide course continuity and a regular training schedule unaffected by deployments and such. Never saw it happen, though.
You mean it can be especially dangerous on the sharp end of a two-pitch, night assault climb? Who knew? :rolleyes:
For a short time, I heard rumors of USASOC taking over the Mtn Leder Course to free up the ODAs that normally teach it to do ODA stuff, and to provide course continuity and a regular training schedule unaffected by deployments and such. Never saw it happen, though.
I think what has happen, 10th Groupers pls chime in, that now the GSB company for envorimential training will cover down on the course. Which would free up the 3nd BN ODA(s). 10th is still the SME and will provide all or most of the instructors and most are still coming from the two 3rd BN ODAs.
My .02 knowledgement :D
reaper223
01-13-2008, 09:30
I have been given the opportunity to attend the Mountain Warfare school in Vermont in March. I have read the requirements and what is expected of you to know. As well as the requirements of physical fitness. I just wanted some advice from anyone that has gone. Anything from what to expect from rucking? knots? some tips out in the cold? anything?
The Reaper
01-13-2008, 09:36
No intro, no profile; no questions.
Please comply with the registration message you received and read the stickies before posting again.
BTW, has someone stolen your Search button?
TR
Well, back from winter phase... got the ram's head and "E" ident.
Gotta say that, although the instruction was top notch and the ice climbing, snowshoeing, and culminating mountain walk were very cool, I'd have to say that winter phase is a TAD disappointing compared to summer phase. Not enough ass-kicking, if I can say so. Furthermore, we were in the middle of the January thaw, so no skiing at all :mad:
LOTS of QP's in the course. Good fellas - funnier than sh*t. Two in my squad were especially impressive - especially when one got some lip from a punk-ass cadet... message transmitted crystal clear... it was awesome. (if you are on here, "Dizzle", you know what I'm talking about :lifter)
still a good course if you can't pull the SO MTN course.
EDIT: WINTER PICTURES ADDED.