Martial Arts [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

Bill Harsey

05-25-2004, 20:25

Martial Arts and modern warfare, very interesting topic. First, learn the firearms. Col. Rex Applegate and i discussed this several times. both shooting and hand to hand fighting had some common factors, training the reflexes for emergency stress response had a lot to do with success or not. Don't get locked into a single "style". We trained american boxing, grappling, judo, takedowns and throws as well as strikes. We could do high kicks ( in the old days I could do a jump spinning heel kick thru three inches of wood held suspended by the top only) and have knocked out several partners in training with body kicks. That scared the shit out of me because I'd thought I'd killed a friend when they hit the deck vibrating like a stunned fish, but I also understood how exposed high kicks were "on the street". Keep it real.

NousDefionsDoc

05-25-2004, 20:34

I love this topic. The Gung Ho Chuan and Gutter Fighters, same line as Col. Applegate, use a force continuum/escalation theory. Empty hand/Baton (ASP)/ knife/firearm. Pick your degree of force according to the threat. All are drawn basically the same and presented from the same body position - mechanics are very similar. I agree about the handgun - hardest to learn and I like doing the hard thing first.

Passing, blocking, axe hands, chin jabs, snap cuts, FLASH (for the TS LOL) sight picture shooting. Always having the advantage. Great stuff.

Fighting with rules is sport, and I don't play sports.

Of course The Reaper's BMFG with APLP ammo at 1,000 meters trumps.:munchin

DunbarFC

05-25-2004, 20:35

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Weapon of choice:

You sure you aren't from South Boston ?

;)

Bill Harsey

05-25-2004, 20:38

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Training with Chuck is impressive Blade Master. He used to hit verrrry hard from what I saw when he was fighting. Probably still go a round or two. One cold Oregon season we'd brought Chuck up to Oregon for both a testing and tournament. That cool saturday morning the media was there to do a thing on Chuck so he asked me to help him warm up by my holding the strike pad on my left hand so he could do some spinning heel kicks. The first time he hit my hand was like I got hit with a baseball bat so I pulled my arm back into position so he could do it again (even old guys get lucky...) sumbitch, strike no. 2 was harder and I turned past half ways backwards. Hmmm, momma didn't raise no dummy, ok, quit now or stay in this style of martial arts. well awright, Momma raised a dummy, I put my arm back up and got hit even harder, WOW! I thought, if he misses the pad, my wrist is shattered. Sumbitch, cameras rolling now, can't quit. do it again, this is starting to hurt damnit. 10 times that side then change sides...same thing. Chuck never missed the center of the strike pad. I think he could help with Monkey Stomping.

Bill Harsey

05-25-2004, 20:46

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I love this topic. The Gung Ho Chuan and Gutter Fighters, same line as Col. Applegate, use a force continuum/escalation theory. Empty hand/Baton (ASP)/ knife/firearm. Pick your degree of force according to the threat. All are drawn basically the same and presented from the same body position - mechanics are very similar. I agree about the handgun - hardest to learn and I like doing the hard thing first.

Passing, blocking, axe hands, chin jabs, snap cuts, FLASH (for the TS LOL) sight picture shooting. Always having the advantage. Great stuff.

Fighting with rules is sport, and I don't play sports.

Of course The Reaper's BMFG with APLP ammo at 1,000 meters trumps.:munchin OK, Lets keep the Good Reaper out of this just for the moment, Using/training the human bodys natural stress response to a threat is the most important thing I learned from Rex Applegate. This is Monkey Stomping 101.

NousDefionsDoc

05-25-2004, 20:51

Originally posted by Air.177
Anyone Study? What do you study, How long have you studied, Would you recommend your art to anyone else?

Are you studying?

Air.177

05-25-2004, 20:54

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Weapon of choice:

WTF????

No Smatchet???:D

Bill Harsey

05-25-2004, 20:58

Sir Air.177, NDD's question...

Air.177

05-25-2004, 21:04

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Are you studying?

Not consistantly now, But I still play with Modern Arnis stick stuff and Some Ryuku Kempo w/Kyusho jitsu pressure point stuff thrown in for good measure. Lots of knock outs and energy related stuff.

Air.177

05-25-2004, 21:08

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Sir Air.177, NDD's question...

Tallyho, I didn't see it before I posted

skipjack

05-25-2004, 21:18

I studied Jeet Kune Do, along with Kun Tao, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (with Royce Gracie), Kali (double stick and knife) and a couple others for about 4 years. Still practice periodically. I loved it and wish I had the time and the money to get back into it. Great for practical self defence and a great workout!

-skipjack

Razor

05-25-2004, 21:40

NDD, d'you get the 'manual' I e-mailed?

Smokin Joe

05-25-2004, 22:58

Studied Koden Kan Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu for 13 years (achived Ni-dan).

While studying Jujitsu I did some stuff under Professor Walli Jay.....mostly tap out and scream. What an amazing instructor.

Also did some old school Ninjitsu with a guy from Isreal....If you guys want to know his name PM me I will not post it in the open. He got his 7th in Ninjitsu from Hatsumi in Japan.

Currently just started Combat Hapkido.

I recently went to a Bill Wolfe DEFENDO seminar. WOW that guy is one BAD MAMA JAMA. Mr. Harsey I'm sure you know Mr. Wolfe I guess he learned DEFENDO from Col Applegate. I can't wait to go to another one of his classes.

If you guys are curious this is DEFENDO (http://www.defendo.com/) .

Sdiver

05-25-2004, 23:56

Studied Ed Parker's IKKA Kenpo Karate for 3 1/2 years. Was assistant instructor, for the kiddies and lower ranking belts at my studio for 2 years.

Was Jeff Speakman's punching bag, when he came to Denver to promote his (and Mr. Parker's) movie The Perfect Weapon. My Instructor was more into Kick boxing than Kata's and forms, so we did alot of training in that and competed in alot of the local fights. ( My record 11-2-1) Met Chuck Norris, too. Once was at one of my Instructors fights and latter when I worked on an Episode of Walker, Texas Ranger. Nice guy.

But now that I've found out about the secrets of Monkey Stomping, those other Eastern Styles can take a back seat. Where do I sign up?

NousDefionsDoc

05-26-2004, 07:22

Originally posted by Razor
NDD, d'you get the 'manual' I e-mailed?

Negative

NousDefionsDoc

05-26-2004, 07:31

Originally posted by Smokin Joe

I recently went to a Bill Wolfe DEFENDO seminar. WOW that guy is one BAD MAMA JAMA. Mr. Harsey I'm sure you know Mr. Wolfe I guess he learned DEFENDO from Col Applegate. I can't wait to go to another one of his classes.

If you guys are curious this is DEFENDO (http://www.defendo.com/) .

My research indicates that Col. Applegate did not have to do with Defendo. It would seem that DEFENDU was what Fairbairn called his system fairly early on. I would guess that Mr. Wolfe's line is from Pat O'Neil (Fairbairn-Sykes stud from Shanghai) through the First Special Service Force and the Commando Schools in Scotland. From what I read, there was a divergence when Fairbairn came to the US to teach Americans with Applegate and Sykes et al stayed in the UK to teach the Brits, Canadians and deployed Gringos. Its all pretty much the same stuff, and I have heard good things about Mr. Wolfe. As the Blade Master said previously, all roads lead back to Shanghai prior to the war.

Smokin Joe

05-26-2004, 07:45

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
My research indicates that Col. Applegate did not have to do with Defendo. It would seem that DEFENDU was what Fairbairn called his system fairly early on. I would guess that Mr. Wolfe's line is from Pat O'Neil (Fairbairn-Sykes stud from Shanghai) through the First Special Service Force and the Commando Schools in Scotland. From what I read, there was a divergence when Fairbairn came to the US to teach Americans with Applegate and Sykes et al stayed in the UK to teach the Brits, Canadians and deployed Gringos. Its all pretty much the same stuff, and I have heard good things about Mr. Wolfe. As the Blade Master said previously, all roads lead back to Shanghai prior to the war.

NDD,

I think you would love one of his classes. Its a "serious down and dirty no BS about it, we are going to fight hard and mean until the other guy is knocked out or dead." He had some great simple to master techniques on how to drop someone in less than 5 seconds. He teaches to have someone down and out (one way or another) before you can count to 1,2,3,4,5.

MAKE SURE YOU WEAR A CUP. Man my nuts still hurt after that class.

He demos some the stuff he taught in the seminar I took on his online video clips. Check it out.

Valhal

05-26-2004, 11:03

I've studied a little of everything, jack of all trades master of none. I started early, a system called big brother monkey stomp. Good shit.

I was wondering if anyone has heard of this guy or his system. It looks interesting.

http://www.targetfocusweapons.com/

regards Mark

NousDefionsDoc

05-26-2004, 11:32

Originally posted by Valhal
I've studied a little of everything, jack of all trades master of none. I started early, a system called big brother monkey stomp. Good shit.

I was wondering if anyone has heard of this guy or his system. It looks interesting.

http://www.targetfocusweapons.com/

regards Mark

I don't know Mr. Larkin, but two observations:
1.I've spent years training some of the most elite commandos including US Navy SEALs, 'Green Berets', Delta Force, US Army Special Forces, US Marshals, FBI Hostage Rescue Units and others in just this type of system. sets off bells, whistles sirens to me.

2. He is far to pretty to be a Monkey Stomper.

Buyer Beware

You want tapes? Check out Jim Grover/Kelly McCann on Paladin Press. Very good Monkey Stomping. Carl Cestari tapes from the link on Gutter Fighting should be good as well, although I haven't seen them.

Team Sergeant

05-26-2004, 12:11

Roger and agree. When you see anything on the web that says what this guy is saying itâ€™s most likely pure bullshit.

Thereâ€™s a guy in Scottsdale I made remove the same sort of lies from his website and now he runs/owns a multi-million dollar shooting facility. Go figure.

Living off the hard earned reputations of SOF soldiers rates right up there with selling drugs to children.

Team Sergeant

CPTAUSRET

05-26-2004, 12:26

Originally posted by Team Sergeant

Living off the hard earned reputations of SOF soldiers rates right up there with selling drugs to children.

Team Sergeant

CONCUR, TOTALLY!

Terry

Eagle5US

05-26-2004, 12:35

Studied a little of a few (2 yrs Northwest Freestyle -Steve "Mad Dog" Curran), 2 years Tang Soo Do (didn't care too much), 1 year TWD (not real flexible-I sucked), 6 years Wing Chun Kung Fu-1 year as senior student (by far my most favorite), and now a re-introduction to Hei Wa Do / Yammani Ryu weapons for just over the past 2 years, Was Shodan as a Child / now I Senpai for the lower belts) - qualified for the Nationals this year till I blew out my knee :(
The monkey Stomping techniques have been a closely gaurded secret I have yet to unlock or find someone willing to part with.
Me thinks that Gary O'Neal probably held some of them while he beat me senseless. He would use me for his warm-ups before he fought Van Damme in "Cyborg".

Eagle

Sacamuelas

05-26-2004, 15:03

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Monkey Stomping is my style. My Master:
LOL....
I have studied and participated in this fighting style my entire life. Upon becoming an adult(16 w/fake ID, LOL), I began studying the art from some of the brightest and most experienced,well trained master's in the South. The sparring partner's names escape me, but the lessons learned from the victories and the few defeats have increased my appreciation for the science of the Monkey Stomping style. Just a few "dojo's" on my resume:

-Numerous lessons and seminars at the Pines Club just south of Wiggins, Ms.

-Untold and invaluable training sessions The Dutch Bar , Rodeo's, and the Dock in Jackson, Mississippi

- the Flora-Bama training facility on the Al/FL line in orange beach that is so dear and close to my heart

- Fat Harry's, Gold Mine, World Beat, Cat's Meow in New Orleans,La

- Honkey Tonk in Slidell, La.

From these master dojo's I have studied/observed/practiced/competed and strive to become a 6 THUMP level master monkey stomper. HaHa :lifter You boy's can keep your fancy color coordinated belts and girly robes. LOL

Sacamuelas

05-26-2004, 15:35

BEFORE this turns into a " I can kick your ass with my robes and fancy belt" reply contest... I am not saying that you can't learn to improve your skills and possibly improve your outcome from training in a formal style. I am more of a believer in the "Wild Dog" attitude that fighting to win requires (see pic below for my Master). They don't and can't give anyone that with a belt or piece of certification for attendance. When one combines the ancient art of "wild dog" and "monkey stomp", then pure fighters are born. HaHa

I am just saying that I have known VERY few people that practiced enough and learned truly valuable techniques that actually help them in a street/bar fight. I know they are out there... No need to tell me about it.

I am sure a master "wild dog-monkey stomper" further refined by one of these special forms of training would indeed be one bad mofo.

Roguish Lawyer

05-26-2004, 16:13

Are you claiming to be a bad ass, Saca?

LMAO :eek:

Air.177

05-26-2004, 16:24

You realize that inflicting pain on defenseless folks in a chair with their mouth open hardly constitutes "Monkey Stomping" don't you ??

Weapon of choice:
Power drill

Insert Sock Bear comment of your choice Here:

DunbarFC

05-26-2004, 16:29

I actually studied for a time with Billy Blanks

Yes the Tae-bo guy

Loooooooooooong before tae-bo however

Basenshukai

05-26-2004, 17:10

- 17 yrs.
- Koryu Bujutsu

By the way, "The Gutterfighters" train some of the most "interesting" units in the US arsenal.

Bill Harsey

05-26-2004, 17:26

wow, lot's of martial arts training around here. After posting what I did last night I also got to remembering all the bruises, torn hamstring, stitches, hurt back, broken toes, dislocated finger, more stitches, big knots on shins, insteps and head, busted mouth, loose teeth, broken collar bone, torn up knee... No wonder I stay locked up in my shop by myself now. I think I'll keep it that way.

NousDefionsDoc

05-26-2004, 17:36

Originally posted by Air.177
You realize that inflicting pain on defenseless folks in a chair with their mouth open hardly constitutes "Monkey Stomping" don't you ??

Weapon of choice:
Power drill

Insert Sock Bear comment of your choice Here:

ROTFLMAO

Ambush Master

05-26-2004, 18:18

From a Guy Jones Perspective

Roguish Lawyer

05-26-2004, 18:27

Originally posted by Ambush Master
From a Guy Jones Perspective

LMAO!

Sacamuelas

05-26-2004, 22:43

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Are you claiming to be a bad ass, Saca?
LMAO :eek:

LOL... Just having fun counselor. Me no bad ass, me try to use brain to win argument most times, me just listed the only type training I have had. It was very "realistic" though. haha

Bill Harsey- I didn't need to know what kind of formal training you had...I already know you are tough just from hearing your stories about your "Friends" that put raw meat in a fellow logger friend's tent so the bears will attack him just for "fun". HaHA

Kyobanim

05-27-2004, 06:26

Originally posted by Sacamuelas

I am just saying that I have known VERY few people that practiced enough and learned truly valuable techniques that actually help them in a street/bar fight. I know they are out there... No need to tell me about it.

That's because they are taught techniques but not how to commit to the fight.

Problem #2-
Potential Student - "I want to take classes to learn self defense."
Teacher - "Fine. How many times a week are you planning to come in?"
Potential Student - "I'll be here on Wednesday nights. That's my free night."

I've had occasion to use my self defense on 2 occasions, one resulted in a broken wrist to the drunk and the other was just bruised up. But I train 4 days a week several hours a day. People taking MA for self defense just don't do that.

Waste of money, IMO.

Solid

05-27-2004, 06:36

The same can be said for many things. Many people seem to run from commitment of any kind.

Moving out,

Solid

Bill Harsey

05-27-2004, 08:40

Originally posted by Sacamuelas

Bill Harsey- I didn't need to know what kind of formal training you had...I already know you are tough just from hearing your stories about your "Friends" that put raw meat in a fellow logger friend's tent so the bears will attack him just for "fun". HaHA It was funny, but in fairness to the judgement of my buddies they didn't actually put the meat in the tent, that would have been dangerous. The side of bacon was wired to his ankle and placed outside the tent which the bear drug off with owner of ankle going with it and not having as much fun as the guys watching.

Sacamuelas

05-27-2004, 09:11

Kyo-

That is exactly what I meant to express in my posts. Thanks for clarifying.

Bill-
Do you really think that explanation makes you or your buds seem calmer or more conservative? LOL You put raw meat ANYWHERE near me when I am sleeping in a tent out in bear country....and you will have witnessed my last day with you as a coworker! haha Throw in that whole "funny" part about wiring the meat to his leg and that is downright fookin crazy!! :D
Great story!!!

Razor

05-27-2004, 09:58

I don't know, Kyo--I'd say that if that person who only comes in once a week because that's all the time they can set aside has the right constitution (frame of mind, mindset, whatever catchphrase you prefer), those few hours a week may be enough. Tactics and techniques can make you more efficient, but its the determination to perservere that is most important.

Sacamuelas

05-27-2004, 10:11

Originally posted by Razor
has the right constitution (frame of mind, mindset, whatever catchphrase you prefer),
Uhhhh.... you mean my redneck terminology "wild dog" attitude:D

Valhal

05-27-2004, 10:31

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I don't know Mr. Larkin, but two observations:
1. sets off bells, whistles sirens to me.

2. He is far to pretty to be a Monkey Stomper.

Buyer Beware

You want tapes? Check out Jim Grover/Kelly McCann on Paladin Press. Very good Monkey Stomping. Carl Cestari tapes from the link on Gutter Fighting should be good as well, although I haven't seen them.

All the self hype did raise an eyebrow, but he got a huge endorsment from Matt Fury, author of Combat Conditioning which I own and think highly of. I've heard of Cestari, but not the other two. I'll check it out. Thanks for the info.

Mark

Kyobanim

05-27-2004, 10:33

Originally posted by Razor
I don't know, Kyo--I'd say that if that person who only comes in once a week because that's all the time they can set aside has the right constitution (frame of mind, mindset, whatever catchphrase you prefer), those few hours a week may be enough. Tactics and techniques can make you more efficient, but its the determination to perservere that is most important.

Indomitable spirit is what we call that in TKD. Yeah, I can agree that determination to perservere is important. But if you have to think about how to use the self defense in a situation then you've lost half the battle.

In most cases, the first 3 to 5 seconds are going to determine the outcome. Self defense practice should be done like you guys do reaction drills. It needs to be second nature if you plan to rely on it. If not, learn to become a great communicator. Sometimes the mouth is the best type of self defense.

Eagle5US

05-27-2004, 10:51

Watch the movie Lake Placed:
Fat guy:
My folks had lots of money...that means lots of Karate lessons...I have to warn you...
Sherrif:
Slams fist to fat guys nose...
Fat guy:
YOU DIDN'T SAY GO! You are supposed to say "GO!" first!!!

Tossing someone to the mat for 2 points in a tourney is 180 degrees fromtossing them to the pavement outside Bennigan's where he (or his 3 drunk Bud's coming to his rescue) may have knives, guns, pipes, irons, or whatever else is handy.

Agree...3-5 seconds, you opponent should be physically incapacitated (unable to fight) or unconscious and you unassing the AO. If you aren't willing to hurt someone, run early.
All the pretty "after poses" and whatnot can be left to the hollywood "practitioners"

Eagle

Bill Harsey

05-27-2004, 13:51

You guys are on the right track here, end the fight as it begins. Any training can be better than none but for guys especially they may have to unlearn a lot before they once again have useful skills. I was told that women can benifit from day one in martial arts training because they don't have to unlearn poor combat skills that lot's of guys have. That's why we trained the street fighters so hard, so we had a chance to know what they might do (thats supposed to be kinda funny...). I was always concerned that we trained real skills, not just tournament fighting. Oh for the good old days of bare knuckle full contact.

D9 (RIP)

05-27-2004, 14:36

Krav Maga, level 2. It's the best deal I found in Houston. 99% Martial, 1% Arts.

Kyobanim

05-27-2004, 19:43

I've always wanted to learn but we've only got one guy in the Orlando area that teaches Krav Maga and I'm not too sure about his teaching abilities. He knows his stuff but doesn't appear to be able to communicate very well.

I feel the same way Eagle, knock their ass down and clea out. The only pose they'll see out of me is my backsideforwardmotion stance.

I think women are the easiest to teach self defense to also. One of the things I do is borrow one of their purses and dump it out on the floor, with their permission of course. Then proceed to show them how to use all those 'women' things they carry as a weapon.

DoctorDoom

06-03-2004, 05:46

Guy

06-03-2004, 08:22

Originally posted by Ambush Master
From a Guy Jones Perspective

I'm not a big guy...so I have been known to fight dirty.

Studied under Master Wolfe off of Yadkin Rd. for two years, then went and studied under Myong Mayes (the woman married to that SF guy) for over three years.

Won North and South Carolina TKD titles in the 80's.

I'm more of a avoidfu...runfu...sneakfu...gunfu type of guy! :D

Kyobanim

06-03-2004, 08:25

NDD's preferred martial art:

Seiuuki Inkan Jutsu - The art of Monkey Stompin

ccrn

06-23-2004, 07:22

Sometimes I dont think the style is as important as how one trains. Most schools dont really hit...

If someone had no experience what so ever I would tell them to take boxing for six months with sparring and competition, then sambo or brazilian ju jitsu with compitition for about another six months.

I think they would be able to stand up against most so called "martial artists" in this country who've trained for years-

ccrn

Jack Moroney (RIP)

06-23-2004, 08:21

I'm more into monkey hanging than stomping.

brownapple

06-23-2004, 09:17

I started studying TKD when I was 12, spent some time doing TKD and Goju-Ryu and AKA all at the same time (had friends studying the other two, so we went to each others lessons/dojos), and then studied Kempo (met Chuck Norris at that dojo, he made a visit... around '77) for a while. Paid attention to the "Kill or be Killed" stuff at the same time, and once I entered the military stayed focused on that style.

NousDefionsDoc

06-27-2004, 20:43

Originally posted by D9
Krav Maga, level 2. It's the best deal I found in Houston. 99% Martial, 1% Arts.

Anybody else doing this? I've heard some good things.

NousDefionsDoc

06-27-2004, 20:43

Originally posted by Jack Moroney
I'm more into monkey hanging than stomping.

ROTFLMAO

Diapers in the club?

Kyobanim

07-04-2004, 09:49

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Anybody else doing this? I've heard some good things.

I've been trying to find an instructor in CFL but there's only a couple and they're psychotic. We had them come to the school to do a seminar with a few of us. I realize the training is hard and set up to prepare you for the extreme but training for the first time with a double edged sharp blade was a little much for me.

Teach me how to do it then progress up to the real weapon. Just my opinion of course.

I thought about Combat Ki, there's a good instructor here in Orlando, but there's something about a person kicking me in the balls that I just can't justify in my mind. Must be age.

Kyobanim

07-04-2004, 09:50

It does look like an excellent self-defense if you get the right teacher though.

phantom1984

02-23-2009, 04:18

with my bad knees it took a while of conditioning but i studied for 20 years. I hold Black belts in what my instructor called Ninjutsu (don't really know if he was telling the truth or not) Tae Kwon do and Kenpo. By this time my knees were strong and i had no problems with them since. But The military doctors seeing my medical records still disquilified me from military service :confused:

Ad11

02-23-2009, 08:56

IMHO - I would highly recommend Muay Thai. I've studied for about two years under a QP, who I believe is a member here. The fundamental techniques are easy and effective. The use of knee and elbow strikes are similar to those in Krav Maga.

frostfire

02-25-2009, 08:42

I thought about Combat Ki, there's a good instructor here in Orlando, but there's something about a person kicking me in the balls that I just can't justify in my mind. Must be age.

You would surely like this one then. Shaolin groin skill :D
5:44 onwards (copy and paste)youtube.com/watch?v=CUXB38ShMdw

Of all the skills, I can only do one. Not telling which one;)

Knight

02-25-2009, 09:56

[QUOTE=Bill Harsey;22017]Eight years Tang Soo Do with Chuck Norris,

TANG SOO!! Very good art! It has great kicking, derived from Soo Bak Do, (Korean Foot Fighting), and the hand techniques from Shotokan and Shito Ryu, (Japanese and Okinawan). The discipline that Hwang Kee incorporated in TSD's stances and forms is extremely hard to come by in the arts today. Very, very meticulous about technique. I trained TSD for 8 years also. My instructor and Mr. Norris have close ties; over in Korea together in the AF.
Taken seriously, and studied diligently in tradition, good traditional martial arts training is hard to beat.
My favorite subject.:cool:

Eagle5US

02-25-2009, 11:13

I hold Black belts in what my instructor called Ninjutsu (don't really know if he was telling the truth or not)
Ummmm...probably not a real good indication of your training, or teacher, if you can't trust what your "instructor" gave you a ranking in.

I'm just sayin...:confused:

Eagle

Blitzzz (RIP)

12-21-2010, 08:01

Curious to see if with the new "unlimited recruiting" will there now be "Bitch slapping", "Hair pulling" and "Face scratching" included in Military H2H.

Dusty

02-06-2011, 05:12

So I wasn't sure if it warranted starting a new thread or not, but I was wondering, is there such a thing as actual "knife fighting?" Like as in two guys, each armed with a knife and nothing else, go at it and battle each other?

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

Going back in time to the use of sharp rocks. Probably as many "systems" exist as do sharp rocks.

IMO, you should just learn where to cut and cut first.

The Reaper

02-06-2011, 09:37

ZonieDiver

02-06-2011, 10:05

Not if there is a loaded gun around.

TR

Or a baseball bat or big f#%king stick!

At Camp Mackall, our instructor ("Hand-to-Hand" Martin) used to insist that God invented sticks and rocks for just that purpose - to avoid "hand-to-hand" combat!

My step-father, who didn't teach me much - save for some pool, golf, and what beers NOT to drink - did tell me that "a knife is just something someone will take away from you and hurt you with." (Of course, he was in the Navy, so...)

Dusty

02-06-2011, 10:10

Or a baseball bat or big f#%king stick!

At Camp Mackall, our instructor ("Hand-to-Hand" Martin) used to insist that God invented sticks and rocks for just that purpose - to avoid "hand-to-hand" combat!

My step-father, who didn't teach me much - save for some pool, golf, and what beers NOT to drink - did tell me that "a knife is just something someone will take away from you and hurt you with."

Especially in Apache Territory. And underwater.

Leozinho

02-06-2011, 15:13

So I wasn't sure if it warranted starting a new thread or not, but I was wondering, is there such a thing as actual "knife fighting?" Like as in two guys, each armed with a knife and nothing else, go at it and battle each other?

Edit: Here is an interesting article I found, seems such systems do exist, but they are very dangerous: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

Filipino Martial Arts do a lot of blade on blade training. You can search youtube for Pekiti, Sayoc, Atienza Kali, Dog Brothers for a look at guys going knife on knife. (Oh wait, I didn't see your edit. FWIW, these are the guys that the article you linked to argues against.)

Point taken about having a loaded gun. I carry, and I used to figure, as I think most do, that I'd be fine against an unarmed person. However, Southnarc and his crew have shown that just having a weapon isn't enough. In his force-on-force drills (called 'evos'), the bad guys take the gun away frequently.

Watch what happens 3 seconds into this video. http://www.vimeo.com/1072283

sentra

02-13-2011, 16:24

Would one have the chance to test and be ranked(level 1-4) in "Army Combatives" before getting out of 11b AIT? I have been heavily involved in studying, teaching, and competing in martial arts for over 16 years. I currently help train up-and-coming MMA wanna-be UFC guys who are about 18-25. I can not wait for the H2H parts of basic and AIT and the opportunity to become certified in army combatives and maybe even compete in some army tournaments. I'll be 27 by time I'm out of OSUT and it's fun teaching the "young" guys a thing or two.

Dusty

02-14-2011, 07:52

grigori

03-17-2012, 12:20

Started learning Kyokushin Karate when I was 12 just earned my Shodan(1st dan Black) in December under the IKO1 system.

I know a former QP from the 10th group through a forum who is now running his own school,very nice guy.

grigori

03-17-2012, 12:23

Started learning Kyokushin Karate when I was 12 t earned my Shodan(1st dan Black) in December under the IKO1 system.

I know a former QP from the 10th group through a forum who is now running his own school,very nice guy.

After all these years I still believe one should be strong in the basic kicks,punches,blocks,locks and throws.No flashy stuff like jump kicks,kata,aikido throws(seagal).

olhamada

03-17-2012, 12:38

Growing up, I was always the youngest kid in my peer group - usually 2 years younger - and thus usually the smallest - until I caught up in college. I was in at least a fight a week from 2nd grade till 8th, when I started taking martial arts. Spent a lot of time in the Principal's office but usually wasn't the one getting the licks. :lifter

I'm not sure what happened, maybe it was the way I carried myself or the look in my eyes that changed, but I haven't been in a fight since.

1st dan Black - Tae Kwon Do (Ku Ki Kwan), and Browns in Judo and Hapkido.

grigori

03-17-2012, 12:40

olhamada

03-17-2012, 12:45

Did you go to South Korea for the test?

No, I was living in NY at the time and tested there. My sensei was S Korean and had been a Silver medalist in Judo in the Olympics - at least that's what he told us. Neat guy. But could really kick your ass if he got irritated.

grigori

03-17-2012, 12:47

No, I was living in NY at the time and tested there. My sensei was S Korean and had been a Silver medalist in Judo in the Olympics - at least that's what he told us. Neat guy. But could really kick your ass if he got irritated.

That is very nice,the US I must say has some of the best teachers in possibly all the martial arts styles.

Kyobanim

03-17-2012, 13:02

After all these years I still believe one should be strong in the basic kicks,punches,blocks,locks and throws.No flashy stuff like jump kicks,kata,aikido throws(seagal).

If you think katas are flashy stuff then you need to study harder. Katas are basic training for all levels. They are supposed to integrate everything you have learned to that point and teach you balance, breathing, etc. Anotherwords, the basics.

grigori

03-17-2012, 13:09

If you think katas are flashy stuff then you need to study harder. Katas are basic training for all levels. They are supposed to integrate everything you have learned to that point and teach you balance, breathing, etc. Anotherwords, the basics.

I respect your philosophy towards Kata's Sir,maybe someday I will appreciate them too.There was a time when I'd think it is good to be strong in jump kicks and all cause they look good it was a after getting my teeth knocked trying to use it in sparring that I realized the roundhouse kicks and other simple to use moves are best.Hopefully like that someday I hope I understand the importance Kata has.

Thank You.

Wiseman

03-17-2012, 13:12

grigori

03-17-2012, 13:15

When you say jump kicks are flashy.. do you mean like jumping back kick because I used that many times successfully in competition. Like all techniques, they have their place and need to be used at the right time.

No I meant the jumping side kick,360 degree kick,kicks mainly used in demo's -all those jumping kicks which the movies made so famous.

I do agree that some jumping kicks like the one's you mentioned are good and have their correct time and place of application.

Dusty

03-17-2012, 13:16

If you think katas are flashy stuff then you need to study harder. Katas are basic training for all levels. They are supposed to integrate everything you have learned to that point and teach you balance, breathing, etc. Anotherwords, the basics.

He may be talking about The Flying Wolverine Kata. It takes 40 years to master, though...

grigori

03-17-2012, 13:40

He may be talking about The Flying Wolverine Kata. It takes 40 years to master, though...

But then it wouldn't be a Kata sir as it involves flying and that would make it Chinese.More than 40 years of Chinese Martial Arts cinema makes all other martial arts styles question themselves "Damn!!Can we ever fly like that??"

Dusty

03-17-2012, 14:02

But then it wouldn't be a Kata sir as it involves flying and that would make it Chinese.More than 40 years of Chinese Martial Arts cinema makes all other martial arts styles question themselves "Damn!!Can we ever fly like that??"

No, the Chinese form is a bit more involved, and is called "Drunken, Flying Wolverine".

ZonieDiver

03-17-2012, 14:48

No, the Chinese form is a bit more involved, and is called "Drunken, Flying Wolverine".

And you must master that before you can even have a hope of mastering the "Spetnaz Shovel Kata"!
:D

Sarski

03-17-2012, 18:23

If you think katas are flashy stuff then you need to study harder. Katas are basic training for all levels. They are supposed to integrate everything you have learned to that point and teach you balance, breathing, etc. Anotherwords, the basics.

Agreed, sir. If one is still on kata or one/ two/ three or four step sparring after 3-4 months, then one should train harder or move on to the next martial art...and the next and so on.

Dusty

03-17-2012, 19:31

Agreed, sir. If one is still on kata or one/ two/ three or four step sparring after 3-4 months, then one should train harder or move on to the next martial art...and the next and so on.

Rex Kwon Do has a good six week program for only 300 bucks.

olhamada

03-17-2012, 21:16

"There are few problems on earth that cannot be solved by a swift roundhouse kick to the face. In fact there are none." - Chuck Norris

Sarski

03-18-2012, 00:01

Rex Kwon Do has a good six week program for only 300 bucks.

$300? That is a bargain. I took the online accelerated 4 week black belt sifu masters course for $625, but it included suplemental DVD learning course of material not covered in the intro course, oh and free sparring pads, complete with chest protector...the same kind they use in the olympics! Oh, and I also recieved for $500 more a one on one lesson with the Grand Master, but I have to fly to Hong Kong to redeem it.:munchin

Dusty

03-18-2012, 07:55

$300? That is a bargain. I took the online accelerated 4 week black belt sifu masters course for $625, but it included suplemental DVD learning course of material not covered in the intro course, oh and free sparring pads, complete with chest protector...the same kind they use in the olympics! Oh, and I also recieved for $500 more a one on one lesson with the Grand Master, but I have to fly to Hong Kong to redeem it.:munchin

Post pics of the pebble...

Sarski

03-18-2012, 08:13

Post pics of the pebble...

The pebbles...that is part of the online instructors course. That is $1000. I havn't done that one yet. I'm still working on walking across the rice paper leaving no trace.

Sohei

03-18-2012, 08:29

I can sell you reinforced rice paper...that way you will be guaranteed to pass. ;

Sarski

03-18-2012, 09:03

I can sell you reinforced rice paper...that way you will be guaranteed to pass. ;

Hmm...I don't know. I would not want to do anything to upset sensei. I'll take three rolls.;)

Barbarian

03-19-2012, 08:49

Rex Kwon Do has a good six week program for only 300 bucks.

$300? That is a bargain.

Lol. Only if you're serious about becoming a pro "cage fighter.":D

Sarski

03-19-2012, 09:51

Lol. Only if you're serious about becoming a pro "cage fighter.":D

I don't think there is much to gain fighting cages. Seriously though...just how much more advertising can they put on those speedos, er um shorts, I mean uniforms?:D

Dusty

03-19-2012, 11:31

I don't think there is much to gain fighting cages. Seriously though...just how much more advertising can they put on those speedos, er um shorts, I mean uniforms?:D

Cage fighters wear Flag pants. Know anybody who wants a roundhouse kick to the face wearing those bad boys?

PedOncoDoc

03-19-2012, 11:46

I don't think there is much to gain fighting cages. Seriously though...just how much more advertising can they put on those speedos, er um shorts, I mean uniforms?:D

I always found it rather unfortunate that many of them had/have large advertisements for "Condom Depot" on their backsides. Kind of an unfortunate ad placement if you ask me. :rolleyes:

Barbarian

03-19-2012, 12:28

I don't think there is much to gain fighting cages.

Didn't watch "Napolean," huh? No big loss, there.

I always found it rather unfortunate that many of them had/have large advertisements for "Condom Depot" on their backsides. Kind of an unfortunate ad placement if you ask me.

Lol. Hadn't really noticed that until now. I was fairly interested in watching MMA sports in the beginning, but all the added drama, IMHO, overshadows any respectable qualities the organizations might have had.

Now, I think of it as something akin to "pro wrestling." Sort of a shame, since boxing is down the tubes these days.

Dusty

03-19-2012, 14:08

Didn't watch "Napolean," huh? No big loss, there.

Lol. Hadn't really noticed that until now. I was fairly interested in watching MMA sports in the beginning, but all the added drama, IMHO, overshadows any respectable qualities the organizations might have had.

Now, I think of it as something akin to "pro wrestling." Sort of a shame, since boxing is down the tubes these days.

No, 'Mano-not in the case of Faber v. Cruz, Spider v. Chael or any time Clay Guida fights. Or most of the others, either.

I fought full contact and it's painful and real. Nothing like pro wrestling.

As for your blithely scathing reference to the Nappy Dyno movie, shame on you.

Dusty

03-19-2012, 14:10

Dupe

Sarski

03-19-2012, 17:14

Flag pants? That is what they fit all those ads on, huh? Round house to the face is for people who need to learn to not block roundhouses with their faces.:D:munchin Probably hurts more with steel toe and heal boots on, but that would be pain beyond the friendly compitition pain in the gym or televised on FOX network...maybe they could show that on PPV.

grigori

03-25-2012, 01:36

Tommy Lee Jones would be so proud after watching this(heart,heart,lung)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELPl2gx1KcA&feature=related

Sarski

03-25-2012, 09:04

Tommy Lee Jones would be so proud after watching this(heart,heart,lung)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELPl2gx1KcA&feature=related

More MMA type approach. IMHO I think this approach is a disservice to the MA student. I think a student should only study one style at a time. Essentially devote their life to it. This does not mean you can' t choose a different art to study at a later time, but study one at a time till you find both a great instructor and a single MA that you gravitate toward, like a force sucking you in.

Then learn that single MA forwards, backwards, up, down, sideways for a couple of decades. Devote your life to it and you will come away with a very indepth understanding of martial arts in general, mixed or not, regardless of style, because at those levels of training style is not important, and the distinctions of different styles and even technique (secret or not) tend to merge, and blend.

So better, again IMHO, to master one style in the years one puts into training, than trying to divide that time among many different styles because it is the latest fad, or based on TV pragramming, or what everyone else is doing.

Thanks for reading.

Dusty

03-25-2012, 09:07

More MMA type approach. IMHO I think this approach is a disservice to the MA student. I think a student should only study one style at a time. Essentially devote their life to it. This does not mean you can' t choose a different art to study at a later time, but study one at a time till you find both a great instructor and a single MA that you gravitate toward, like a force sucking you in.

Then learn that single MA forwards, backwards, up, down, sideways for a couple of decades. Devote your life to it and you will come away with a very indepth understanding of martial arts in general, mixed or not, regardless of style, because at those levels of training style is not important, and the distinctions of different styles and even technique (secret or not) tend to merge, and blend.

So better, again IMHO, to master one style in the years one puts into training, than trying to divide that time among many different styles because it is the latest fad, or based on TV pragramming, or what everyone else is doing.

Thanks for reading.

OK. I'll make a deal. You kick Lyoto Machida's ass with one style, and I'll be your Grasshopper.

PedOncoDoc

03-25-2012, 09:08

More MMA type approach. IMHO I think this approach is a disservice to the MA student. I think a student should only study one style at a time. Essentially devote their life to it. This does not mean you can' t choose a different art to study at a later time, but study one at a time till you find both a great instructor and a single MA that you gravitate toward, like a force sucking you in.

Then learn that single MA forwards, backwards, up, down, sideways for a couple of decades. Devote your life to it and you will come away with a very indepth understanding of martial arts in general, mixed or not, regardless of style, because at those levels of training style is not important, and the distinctions of different styles and even technique (secret or not) tend to merge, and blend.

So better, again IMHO, to master one style in the years one puts into training, than trying to divide that time among many different styles because it is the latest fad, or based on TV pragramming, or what everyone else is doing.

Thanks for reading.

I would argue that the video showed a fighting style more than a martial art. The instructor did provide some discussion on philosophy and what-not, but from the limited demonstratoin and discussion provided in the clip, I don't see the art component of this. YMMV...

Sarski

03-25-2012, 10:02

OK. I'll make a deal. You kick Lyoto Machida's ass with one style, and I'll be your Grasshopper.

There will always be someone bigger and badder around the corner. Even those who train in his approach can't always beat the #6 man. However, if we take a look at the masters who specialized in the arts they made famous, like Jigoro Kano and judo, we can clearly see a highly developed skill set that is not relying on brute force, swift kicks to the head, repetitive punches to the head on the ground which may or may not have an effect , or rules designed to keep a bout running for sake of spectators.

Even H. Gracie (taught by a couple of judo Black Belts who failed miserably when dispatched to the US to show the US Army some judo, and for shame could not return to Japan) was beaten in Brazil by Kimura.

Yet many would rather study Gracies BJJ, as opposed to actual judo, which Kimura was trained.

One style is all one needs. One technique can finish any fight. Finding the right one, and opportunity is the key.

I don't know, maybe I am a little old fashioned, I prefer mastery to a jack of all trades.

Also, as I study aikido, I realize that it is not the perfect style, and has its own shortcommings, but one can't begin to understand and deal with that until actually having spent time in an art.

There are no perfect styles, no perfect techniques...no perfect men, afterall.

No, I would not back down, if it was already too late for me to avoid conflict, or I happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...oops.

Again, based on my observations and oppinions.

Besides, how do we know I could'nt learn a thing or two from you as well? Maybe I'd be your grasshopper!

Sarski

03-25-2012, 10:07

I would argue that the video showed a fighting style more than a martial art. The instructor did provide some discussion on philosophy and what-not, but from the limited demonstratoin and discussion provided in the clip, I don't see the art component of this. YMMV...

Right, sir. Analogous to this: If I need to have a brain tumor excised, do I go to a GP MD? I think I would prefer a competent neuro surgeon who has specialized in that area of medicine to save my life.

Edit to add: preferably one in his/her sixties or seventies that has say more than a few under their belt.

Dusty

03-25-2012, 10:57

One style is all one needs. One technique can finish any fight. Finding the right one, and opportunity is the key.

Sure, it can. Lyoto'll give you a shot, too. Ask Mr. Natural.

Maybe I'd be your grasshopper!

I'll give you a free lesson. Aikido is worthless unless your opponent attacks, Grasshopper. ;).

cc

Sarski

03-25-2012, 11:56

cc

Thanks for the lesson. I am here to learn as much as I can from the QPs on this forum. However, eventually in MA training one reaches a stage where there is no offense, there is no defense. To think that one has to sit around passively waiting to be attacked, I would suggest might be a misconception of this martial art. I have always studied and practiced martial art from a pro active stature.

This can come in many forms from attacking first, to aggrivating and taunting your opponent into attacking you first (inviting an attack so to speak, or appearing weak or like an easy target), but once the senses start processing that ones life is threatened, there is nothing passive or of a waiting nature about it.

One may also think aikido does not involve kicks, and I will admit I can't kick for beans, but I use them as part of my atemi/striking when I can.

The beauty of a complete style of MA is, IMHO, there is so much to learn that it is impossible to know it all, or achieve complete mastery.

This is just based on my own understanding and training in the martial arts, the most of which has been aikido.

Dusty

03-25-2012, 12:01

Thanks for the lesson. I am here to learn as much as I can from the QPs on this forum. However, eventually in MA training one reaches a stage where there is no offense, there is no defense. To think that one has to sit around passively waiting to be attacked, I would suggest might be a misconception of this martial art. I have always studied and practiced martial art from a pro active stature.

This can come in many forms from attacking first, to aggrivating and taunting your opponent int attacking you first, but once the senses start processing that ones life is threatened, theteis nothing passive or of a waiting nature about it.

One may also think aikido does not involve kicks, and I will admit I can't kick for beans, but I use them as part of my atemi/striking when I can.

The beauty of a complete style of MA is, IMHO, there is so much to learn that it is impossible to know it all, or achieve complete mastery.

This is just based on my own understanding and training in the martial arts, the most of which has been aikido.

OK, I give up-on the condition that you watch Napolean Dynamite up until the part where Napolean pulls his brother home from Rex Kwon Do's introductory lesson.

Sarski

03-25-2012, 12:04

OK, I give up-on the condition that you watch Napolean Dynamite up until the part where Napolean pulls his brother home from Rex Kwon Do's introductory lesson.

I'll watch it, just please don't arrange a bout between me and Machida...I like my face just the way it is!

Sarski

04-01-2012, 10:11

OK, I give up-on the condition that you watch Napolean Dynamite up until the part where Napolean pulls his brother home from Rex Kwon Do's introductory lesson.

Hanging out with my nephews today, they have the dvd, so I'll check it out. :munchin

Dusty

04-01-2012, 10:21

Hanging out with my nephews today, they have the dvd, so I'll check it out. :munchin

"First off, at Rex Kwon Do, we use the buddy system! No more flyin' solo!"

:D:D

Sarski

04-01-2012, 15:36

Ha! Now I get it...round house kick to face in these bad boys. :rolleyes:

Sarski

04-01-2012, 20:24

Didn't watch "Napolean," huh? No big loss, there.

And I forgot to mention the cage fighting scene. Thanks for bringing me up to speed, gents.

This one is still my favorite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAfcPatBL3s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9GkIHyhtKU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

(Joe Piscapo...he is also an awesome drummer.)

pjbluetogreen

04-14-2012, 00:25

GratefulCitizen

04-19-2012, 21:46

Over the past several years I have been training in Krav Maga, Very functional and reality based.
The First guys I trained with in Krav were of a mind set that got me sold on it, "the only unfair fight is the one that you lose". Great mind set to have in a fight.

In a fair fight, the younger, stronger, more athletic guy will usually win.
Because of this, you will never find an old experienced guy in a fair fight.

If he's in one, it's unfair -- to his advantage -- and he knows it.

MR2

04-19-2012, 22:03

In a fair fight, the younger, stronger, more athletic guy will usually win.
Because of this, you will never find an old experienced guy in a fair fight.

If he's in one, it's unfair -- to his advantage -- and he knows it.

BANG! "Don't move or I'll shoot."

Dusty

04-20-2012, 05:13

BANG! "Don't move or I'll shoot."

Why mince words?

Sohei

04-20-2012, 07:21

...fair fight...

That is a great example of an oxymoron. ;)

Sarski

04-20-2012, 08:15

greenberetTFS

04-20-2012, 09:11

When I was in the 77th,I had a little judo training not much on attacking,but i really learned how to fall,my first 10 1 hr sessions were just on falling....... :rolleyes:

Big Teddy :munchin

Dusty

04-20-2012, 09:30

When I was in the 77th,I had a little judo training not much on attacking,but i really learned how to fall,my first 10 1 hr sessions were on just falling....... :rolleyes:

Big Teddy :munchin

That technique worked out well for Zimmerman.

Sarski

05-05-2012, 22:04

greenberetTFS

05-06-2012, 11:29

Big Teddy :munchin

JohnIll

07-14-2012, 02:43

I studied Okinawan Karate, Jujutsu under the Michael DePasquale system of Yoshitsune Jujutsu, JKD, Kempo and Black Tiger Kung Fu< well attended a few seminars, alot of ripping and tearing techniques ....(I hold no rank)

I moved on to Boxing< I found it much more realistic for my needs, Im not the greatest fighter in the world.. But Boxing prepared me for what its like to be in a truly violent situation, It helped me get in shape and get rid of the Social Anxiety of being in a fist fight, specially with cheering onlookers and jerks who get loud and obnoxious trying to intimidate you( bc their scared punks themselves).

I found everything is about your mind set, a defense mindset is gonna get you killed...You can study anything and if your mindset is wrong, the training will fail you..

I think a person should ask themselves if they are fight or flight>? If they are flight they need to seek more aggressive training instead of traditional MA based dealing with things more defensively...

Im now a strong advocate in the approach of simply taking your natural aggression (your fight and flight instincts) and honing it to the point of true (controlled chaos).

Just like the WW2 combatives like Defendu< A truly ruthless, godless approach to unarmed combat....Non nonsense Gutterfighting

Unfortunately, I know little about the world of "combatives" and Im sure there are planny of Mc Dojo's in "combatives" as in the traditional MA realm.

I have found a few schools of interest

1) Charlie Nelsons Self Defense system in Edison,NJ
Mr. Nelson has a direct linage to Fairburn under Sgt. Kelly and Colonel. A.J. Drexel Biddle ..you can check the website underneath

http://www.cnsds.com/about/charles-nelson

2) Mr. Lee Morrison's Urban Combatives< hes one of the baddest men i've ever seen....(also studied under Charlie Nelson)

Videos
http://www.urbancombatives.com/m_intro/about.htm

3) Keysi Fighting Method (from batman) rumored to be taught to the British SAS

4) Ex Navy SEAL Tim Larkin (target focus training)- He seems all about the money, Im sure. But I hear its pretty effective

In closing,

And though I'm no Olivier, if he fought Sugar Ray, he would say that the thing ain't the ring, it's the play. So, give me a stage where this bull here can rage, and though I can fight, I'd much rather recite. That's entertainment.

- Jake Lamatta

lol

Sarski

07-14-2012, 14:11

My take on it is this, JohnIll. There are many effective martial arts out there. I have not trained in any of them. Just because someone else is effective at teaching and doing the art they do, does not garuntee someone else taking those lessons will be that good. It all boils down to how many hours per day you spend training, practicing, studying, and perfecting your craft. And how good do you want to be? Is three days a week good enough? Four? How many weeks a year? Thirty nine? Fourty nine?

Secondly, there are a lot of teachers out there that are about the money, I have not trained with any of them.

Being about the money isn't all that bad. Afterall IF what they are teaching may someday save your life then you have to ask just how much is your life worth, and how bad do you want to learn what it is they have to offer.

Sure there may be somthing closer, and more within your budget that can be great as well, but if you find an instructor five states away that teaches what you want to learn, are you ready to pack up the wife and kids and move out there to work at a job and train with that person? Or go to college in that city to be with that instructor?

Your life should adapt and cater to the martial arts, not the other way around, that being the martial arts bending to suit your needs, and fit your perceptions.

As far as money goes, someone has to pay for the space, mat, rings, equipment, sports tape, insurance on the lease, electricity, parking lot re-striping, and so on if that stuff is used.

Anyways, just some food for thought!:p

Dusty

07-14-2012, 14:54

Okay, QP Dusty...and group...my money is here...feeling comfey enough here on PS.com to share a video of me back in 2008. Thanks for letting me be a part. It is about 8 minutes. I think it might be my 2nd degree exam...not 100% sure...

It is linked to my website. Still have a few things to work on. But give me a break, I was 39 at the time.(I know, no excuse. My avitar comes up/plays in.)

http://doggy-pals.com/aikividjan08.html

Why won't you let those guys hold hands with you? You're all wearing skirts... :D

Seriously-kudos to your proficiency.

I don't knock aikido, I just prefer two pistols when I go out in public.

JohnIll

07-14-2012, 15:19

Sarski,

Advice taken, lol.

I noticed on your Public Profile it states 4th dan in Aikido...I studied Aikido alittle bit( a few classes), mostly Daito Ryu ( I consider it the Tai Chi of the Japanese MA)I attended a few classes with Rick Stickles 8th dan I believe. I met Yamada Sensei in NY at a Aikido seminar.

The one MA I would really like to learn is Shorinji Kempo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPW9iMr93vk&feature=related

and Wolfes Combatives

My hearts with Bill Wolfes Comabtives (Modern Defendo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsEj16dqx6E&feature=related

Sarski

07-14-2012, 15:50

Why won't you let those guys hold hands with you? You're all wearing skirts... :D

Seriously-kudos to your proficiency.

I don't knock aikido, I just prefer two pistols when I go out in public.

Ha! If I had my way, I'd have a QP with two pistols with me when I went out in public!:D

Sarski,

Advice taken, lol.

I noticed on your Public Profile it states 4th dan in Aikido...I studied Aikido alittle bit( a few classes), mostly Daito Ryu ( I consider it the Tai Chi of the Japanese MA)I attended a few classes with Rick Stickles 8th dan I believe. I met Yamada Sensei in NY at a Aikido seminar.

The one MA I would really like to learn is Shorinji Kempo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPW9iMr93vk&feature=related

and Wolfes Combatives

My hearts with Bill Wolfes Comabtives (Modern Defendo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsEj16dqx6E&feature=related

Good luck with your training, whatever one you decide to do.;)

zuluzerosix

07-17-2012, 09:49

Seriously

What I like (http://www.gutterfighting.org/)

Not for the kiddies for sure.

Carl Cestari is the man. His thoughts and ideas on unarmed combat are spot on. His Knife Defense Myth is 101% abso -freakin-lutely right on.
It speaks the truth.

JohnIll

07-28-2012, 06:18

Carl Cestari is the man. His thoughts and ideas on unarmed combat are spot on. His Knife Defense Myth is 101% abso -freakin-lutely right on.
It speaks the truth.

I couldn't agree more, I believe there is no such thing as knife defense only knife survival..

Cestari is a very knowledgeable, a very serious man and I enjoyed watching is videos. Its unfortunate a man with his knowledge passed away...

I'm a huge Fan of WW2 combatives, Cestari's linage comes from Nelsons Self defense system and various books written by Fairbairn and Applegate...Mr. Cestari has a predecessor, Clint Sporman.

So far the real deals I've seen in WW2 combat is the Nelson system, Cestari's "gutterfighting", Wolfe's combatives and Urban Combatives by Lee Morrison of the United Kingdom..

Morrison also trained in the Nelson system... I wish I lived closer in NJ to train in Nelson's SD system and or under Clint Sporman...

Anyway, my favorite system is ... Drum roll.... Ape-shitzu :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dj7Po8w0Dl1Y

^ this video is hilarious and a perfect example of the elusive Ape-ShiTZU XD

WarriorDiplomat

04-21-2014, 14:28

Anyone Study? What do you study, How long have you studied, Would you recommend your art to anyone else?

Ever notice the knife fighting experts teaching knife fighting without a scar on them?? amazing must be a born expert. Forget the hours of choregraphy that real martial arts experts spend for a movie to make sure noone gets hurt. Some guy from a XX Group told me about the ? levels of knife fighting and he bought it lock stock and barrell. You would think the instructor would have been in prison already honing his craft on his way to expertise. Especially if he is going to tell students how to kill with it, an expert implies alot of practice and real world experience.

Sort of like the neck break grappling instructors, they always talk about breaking a neck and yet you are hard pressed to find any facts confirming his neck breaking prowess. Hell the way some of these guys talk you would expect to see a daily stack of bodies laying in the alley with broken necks from all his real world hands on experience.

Tae Kwon Do- Ever tried using any of this stuff while in kit or just weight on your back?

Boxing- I like it but hopefully my hands are controlling weapons I carry and if I break my shooting hand. In the street out of uniform keeps me on my feet.

Muay Thai- Good leg/elbow hand stuff you can use when restricted by equipment. In the street gives me more weapons to stay on my feet

Ju Jitsu- Ground based so you need to be OK laying on the ground while being monkey stomped, it is great training for getting off your back or fighting from your back if there. Has great chokes if I end up on the ground.

Catch Wrestling- Great and unlike Ju Jitsu is about top riding time and top control but the submissions are the same just different objectives but does not teach chokes. Great for putting someone on the ground keeping them there then smashing there head with a brick.

Sambo- Excellent art but is designed around WW1 Russia war fighting capability but more complete than CW or JJ.

Modern Army Combatives- Is good but starts out on the ground and we hopefully understand most if not all fights start on our feet and in our minds. Mimics MMA the sport too close. Should start with stand up first and grappling added.

Special operations Combatives Program- Designed around and for CQB a short version of tier ones program. Has a specfic purpose.

Krav Maga/H.A.G.A.N.A. etc... What people here do is only a smell of what the real Israeli's do. 3 weeks to earn the rite to be a certified instructor with no real world experience don't cut it. The concept is realistic if you approach the training having BTDT

And alot more

The bottom line is if you ever run across stuff that doesn't pass the common sense test move on.

I have been doing this stuff since I was a kid mostly live stuff tournaments and in back alleys etc.......if it doesn't make sense don't waste your time. If you are wanting to learn martial arts to feel safer and secure while out on the town they all serve that purpose. You want real stuff then train live stuff then seek to build on what you are training live. Go into a bar or a rough side of town and look around and ask your self the survivability of getting attacked there and laying on the ground trying to defend and tap someone out without backup. That is not to say that chokes don't work but arm bars are submission holds and though you can break arms how well can you do that getting stomped? Stay on your feet and run for your life is the correct answer from my experience. Never go there again unarmed and without backup or better yet it isn't your turf and you have no reason to be there so stay away. Been in a few and the situations develop so fast next thing you know you are in over your head ambushed!!. Grew up in rough areas and the survivability for someone non indigenous is low and depends on the mercy of the crowd and their purpose. If they want your money give it up and live to fight another day.

Hopefully you are getting the idea it is about surviving and not fighting 1 on 1.
Your no. 1 weapon is your intelligence and S/A.

WarriorDiplomat

04-21-2014, 20:33

When I was in the 77th,I had a little judo training not much on attacking,but i really learned how to fall,my first 10 1 hr sessions were just on falling....... :rolleyes:

Big Teddy :munchin

Interesting, did you know that the Japanese paid for and brought western boxers to teach the Japanese boxing? The boxers noted that the average Japanese soldier lacked the aggression needed to box.

Apparently the Japanese with the advent of modern weapons and since the fall of old Samurai system were concerned with the lack of aggression of the Japanese soldiers since most were not from warrior clans and bred for battle like the pre-WW1 era.

The Reaper

04-21-2014, 20:37

Interesting, did you know that the Japanese paid for and brought western boxers to teach the Japanese boxing? The boxers noted that the average Japanese soldier lacked the aggression needed to box.

Apparently the Japanese with the advent of modern weapons and since the fall of old Samurai system were concerned with the lack of aggression of the Japanese soldiers since most were not from warrior clans and bred for battle like the pre-WW1 era.

Teddy (greenberetTFS) who made the comment two years ago that you referenced, has passed (hence the RIP after his name), so we will never know if he knew that or not.

TR

WarriorDiplomat

04-21-2014, 20:54

Teddy (greenberetTFS) who made the comment two years ago that you referenced, has passed (hence the RIP after his name), so we will never know if he knew that or not.

TR

Damn I gotta wake up and pay attention to the posts.

Thanks for pointing that out

Kasik

05-05-2014, 09:16

Over the years Kenpo Karate, Kali, Silat and JKD.

Presently re-starting with Datu Kelly Worden in his "Essential 24" program as taught to 1st Group at Lewis.

http://www.kellyworden.com/

WarriorDiplomat

05-07-2014, 17:22

Over the years Kenpo Karate, Kali, Silat and JKD.

Presently re-starting with Datu Kelly Worden in his "Essential 24" program as taught to 1st Group at Lewis.

http://www.kellyworden.com/

I trained with Kelly Worden for a year when I was with 1st Group ODA 155

He is an awesome no shit real world take you into the street or back alley kind of guy.

Kasik

05-15-2014, 07:00

WarriorDiplomat

05-16-2014, 10:13

I'm visiting with Kelly this evening in T-Town.

He is the real deal and has devoted himself to developing and teaching real world martial strategy, technique and tactics to 1st Group operators for some time now.

I wish we could get a Kelly Worden for every Group, for all the technique teaching B.S. artists out there only a few are legit tough guys like Kelly. His stuff is pretty much street thuggery with skills absolutely loved it, I grew up like Kelly been in some rough places and he is the only guy I completely agreed with based off my experience. I am sure he doesn't remember me but I had a few conversations with him about boxing when he saw my hands when throwing we ended up talking about one his old gym mates and sparring partners from the 70's. Sugar Ray Seales a Tacoma native who had won an Olympic Gold Medal in 72 and had been one of the top middleweight fighters n the world going into the late 70's but unfortunately went blind from detached retina's.

I envy you I would train with Kelly in a heartbeat if I could.

Just out of curosity is he keeping all his stuff local or does he have any vetted instructors he is sending out to train?

Kasik

05-16-2014, 14:05

Kelly himself is staying local for the time being.

He's giving consideration to opening a new school near where he's living and having his senior students assist in instruction.

He's still teaching the "Essential 24" which is a 1st Group program.

And he's still working on his book which is looking very good.

We had good visit and nice dinner (Thai) in downtown T-Town:D

Rumblyguts

01-05-2015, 12:40

All,

I have some concerns about my daughter’s karate classes and am looking for some guidance. If you have the time to read this and reply, it’d be appreciated.

My 10 year old daughter is a mid-belt student in American Freestyle Karate (kick oriented) here in town. The teaching methods rely heavily on kata/forms and choreographed responses to “one punch” that includes an initial block then follows with a counter attack/throw (4-6 moves). Sparring is 30 minutes per week as a class. The school combines teens and adults for a different class that I haven’t observed.

I spent a year in Shorin-ryu taught by a bodyguard who stressed "practical" in the mid 80’s and a brief stint in the airborne infantry after that. What seems lacking is for my daughter is realism: quick counters to the groin, knees, eyes, throat, breaks, feels very little contact, etc. Not much of just letting her go, letting her react, nor developing an “attitude” of winning the fight, if that makes sense. Perhaps they’re teaching is tailored to the age group (6-12 years old), but it seems like they’re teaching a dance class rather than something more practical.

This is the only place in town, so I’m coming to you for a bit of guidance about how to enrich her self-defense and make it more practical. A few questions follow regarding what/how karate is taught to children:

1) Are children’s’ advanced classes typically repetitive in nature?
2) Is realism typically left out for kids?
3) Cautions about enriching/interfering with her lessons and learning?
4) Do you have some suggestions for ways to make her self-defense more realistic? Resources? I've read this thread and "Does your Martial art Work" thread and noted those resources. She's a mature 10 year old.

Thank you for any insight,

Rumbly

edit: This was emailed to my former sensei from 1985ish, and he actually called back. His response was that she's young, and learning a foundation. He suggested that while not teaching her the more disabling techniques, plant that there's something more effective out there. Along the lines of "You're learning this and keep it up. But there's more than one way to do things that can be more effective, and you can learn these later." He pointed out that some schools are very black/white with their instruction and might not react well if she does something different. He also stated that by hinting at something different in the future that she won't get brainwashed into "this one way is the right way" and not be able to adapt to something different.

WarriorDiplomat

01-05-2015, 19:38

[QUOTE=Rumblyguts;571512]All,

I have some concerns about my daughter’s karate classes and am looking for some guidance. If you have the time to read this and reply, it’d be appreciated.
The teaching methods rely heavily on kata/forms and choreographed responses to “one punch” that includes an initial block then follows with a counter attack/throw (4-6 moves). Sparring is 30 minutes per week as a class. The school combines teens and adults for a different class that I haven’t observed.

Remember that Karate is a self defense art which implies that she is the victim and has already been attacked and must now react essentially being trained to react to the first punch instead of being proactive when danger has been sensed. Kata forms are the equivelant of a boxer or Muay Thai fighter throwing combinations or a wrestler chain wrestling or a grappler technques chaining the difference is in intent. Katas are reactionary and are intended to be automatic reactions self defense in nature as was the purpose of Karate meaning the damage has been done already. The others are proactive in nature and imply that the attacker is striking first. Karate does not teach adapting to the reality of a fight the others dictate where the fight happens and are free flow adapting to the opponents reactions.

1) Are children’s’ advanced classes typically repetitive in nature?

Yes I have noticed that with kids they are usually developed along the lines of their physical development such as balance, concentration. The repetition is ingraining of reactions to establish muscle memory.

2) Is realism typically left out for kids?

In competitive martial arts such as wrestling, boxing, Judo, Ju Jitsu, Muay Thai etc...effectiveness isn't left out. There is not such thing as realism in MA training, I have never seen the fight or flight response replicated, the fear of imminent death, never seen any art here students actually kick others in the groin, gouge eyes, punch throats, knife fight, disarm real bad guys or break necks. There are more realistic arts where a person has to prove their techniques such a single leg takedown, dominant positioning, chokes, a punch or kick followed up by others and responses so you get feedback against a live opponent.

3) Cautions about enriching/interfering with her lessons and learning?

Your old sensei is correct, many schools believe that what they teach is best and seeing a student do something not taught by them is taboo. At her age curiosity kills the cat especially when she sees an opportunity to prove something she was taught elsewhere.

4) Do you have some suggestions for ways to make her self-defense more realistic? Resources? I've read this thread and "Does your Martial art Work" thread and noted those resources. She's a mature 10 year old.

Pull her out of Karate and enroll her in MMA training, she will be far more aware of the reality of what someone tells her as being probable or a gimmick. Many ancient arts taught by American "Sensei" usually teach unrealistic techniques and sometimes make false claims of the lethality without ever having use the art themselves. Having heard from friends in Okinawa the origin of Karate being taught by Masters the commercialism in the U.S. has corrupted the art to being inadequate. The history of Karate was an art for the Okinawan people the poor farmers etc...to defend themselves from mercenaries of Japan called Ninja who governed the Island. It's purpose was out of necessity due to being not allowed to own weapons and the brutality of the bully ninja's but today.....

Rumblyguts

01-05-2015, 21:29

Thank you for your time.

Remember that Karate is a self defense art which implies that she is the victim and has already been attacked and must now react essentially being trained to react to the first punch instead of being proactive when danger has been sensed. Kata forms are the equivelant of a boxer or Muay Thai fighter throwing combinations or a wrestler chain wrestling or a grappler technques chaining the difference is in intent. Katas are reactionary and are intended to be automatic reactions self defense in nature as was the purpose of Karate meaning the damage has been done already. The others are proactive in nature and imply that the attacker is striking first. Karate does not teach adapting to the reality of a fight the others dictate where the fight happens and are free flow adapting to the opponents reactions.

My view of the "choreography" is that it's developing gross motor skill and muscle memory. Also as a way of herding a group of cats ;) But I'm leery of it developing linear responses and stagnation in reacting to an advisory's attack. My daughter often sees things as black and white, and I can envision her stagnating over choosing the "right" response rather than reacting. The SA aspect is something that we touch on here at home and around town once in a while.

2) Is realism typically left out for kids?

In competitive martial arts such as wrestling, boxing, Judo, Ju Jitsu, Muay Thai etc...effectiveness isn't left out. There is not such thing as realism in MA training, I have never seen the fight or flight response replicated, the fear of imminent death, never seen any art here students actually kick others in the groin, gouge eyes, punch throats, knife fight, disarm real bad guys or break necks. There are more realistic arts where a person has to prove their techniques such a single leg takedown, dominant positioning, chokes, a punch or kick followed up by others and responses so you get feedback against a live opponent.

Aye, the discussion about the scarless knife fighting instructor comes to mind.
The closest she gets to realism is fully padded, torso-contact sparring. (and one tournament) She hasn't felt a hard block in training, nor punched something with little give. The latter parts of your comment match what my old sensei teaches to students her age - go at it and figur out what works.

Pull her out of Karate and enroll her in MMA training, she will be far more aware of the reality of what someone tells her as being probable or a gimmick.

I'd love to change, but this is the only place for martial arts training for roughly 30 miles around. Hence looking for way to enrich what's here.

Many ancient arts taught by American "Sensei" usually teach unrealistic techniques and sometimes make false claims of the lethality without ever having use the art themselves. Having heard from friends in Okinawa the origin of Karate being taught by Masters the commercialism in the U.S. has corrupted the art to being inadequate. The history of Karate was an art for the Okinawan people the poor farmers etc...to defend themselves from mercenaries of Japan called Ninja who governed the Island. It's purpose was out of necessity due to being not allowed to own weapons and the brutality of the bully ninja's but today.....

What you state regarding the commercialism is interesting. This school does seem a bit like a mill rather than teaching something "proven". While this place does well in "karate tournaments", I haven't seen them pad-up the bo staff or escrima sticks and go at it.

Good food for thought. Thanks.
Rumbly

craigepo

01-05-2015, 23:29

When I was a kid, my folks sent me to a traditional karate school. A few years later, my first day in a Thai boxing gym saw me get my ass stomped. I learned more in my first month at the Thai gym than I had in years with the traditional stuff.

To learn to fight, a person has to actually fight. Somebody can tell you to keep your hands up, but the best teacher is fighting some quick bastard with a good jab who sends you home with a bloody nose. Want to learn how to check a leg kick? Get dropped from leg kicks and you will figure it out in a hurry, or else learn how to deal with deep thigh bruises on a daily basis. Traditional martial arts usually don't have enough contact to teach people what they need to know.

Your situation is pretty tough, not having a good place to train nearby. Like WD said, a good MMA school is hard to beat, the problem being they are not ubiquitous.

If there was a good school within 30 miles, she would get a lot more out of going there on Saturday than she will being taught junk 3 nights a week close to home. In the old days, there was always an old Golden Glove or military boxer in every small town who could teach the kids. Those days are gone.

Maybe if she is at least getting good workouts in, you can let her know that she is just in phase 1, getting the athletic parts down. Phase 2 can come later when a good teacher becomes available.

Joker

01-06-2015, 04:31

What my two brothers have said and get some good sparring gloves and pads for both you and her and let her beat on you. She will learn a lot and it will give you some bonding time.

Rumblyguts

01-06-2015, 09:02

craigpo:

The note of one day at a good place is better than 3 at a mediocre joint struck home and keeping eyes open for another place struck home. She hasn't taken to it as a passion, like someone who loves baseball would just go outside to throw a ball in the air. It'd be interesting to see if she'd do more at home.

craigpo and Joker:
I'm planning on doing some play scenarioes such as random bear hugs in the hallway, more rough-housing, etc. Play, process, explore, bond, etc.

Thanks
Rumbly

The Reaper

01-06-2015, 10:03

I would just add that whatever she does, it needs to be fun and entertaining for her, or it will end poorly without the knowledge transfer and experience you seek and she may never try it again.

TR

PedOncoDoc

01-06-2015, 10:36

Rumblyguts

01-06-2015, 10:56

I would just add that whatever she does, it needs to be fun and entertaining for her, or it will end poorly without the knowledge transfer and experience you seek and she may never try it again.

TR

The dojo just changed hands and the new owner-instructor has much more kid-friendly energy. I'm hoping that transfers and will inspire some more spontaneity on her part at home.

Regarding fun at home, I've learned that she doesn't take kindly to my coaching at home when she does some practice. "This is the way I was taught" Me: "but if you pivot more on your back foot, your side kick will be better" Her:"But this is what I was taught" Me:" I heard what you were taught two nights ago - that's not it" Her :rolleyes: :mad: :( except with longer hair :)

So I'm hoping that "gaming it up" or making it whacky, energetic, random, farty, etc. will help. Plus, it's something new, which she should like.

Thanks

Rumblyguts

01-06-2015, 11:00

This holds true with wives, too. :D

Ha! One lesson learned while leading canoe trips was to be cautious about placing married couples in the same canoe on the first day :p

PedOncoDoc

01-06-2015, 11:12

Ha! One lesson learned while leading canoe trips was to be cautious about placing married couples in the same canoe on the first day :p

Which reminds me of another great marital lesson - become familiar with the little man in the canoe. ;)

But I digress. In my experience, most martial arts studios that have dedicated children's classes do not focus on realistic combat situations with children less than 12 years of age (with exceptions for those children who have been training for years who are invited to participate in the adult classes). Most focus on basic technique/form, fun, sport (teaching to win competitions/tournaments), fitness, self-discipline and positive self image.

When it comes down to it, a pre-pubescent child will be overpowered an adult attacker, and no amount of training will level the playing field. A child's best bet for survival in a a situation with an adult is a quick move to provide separation directly followed by fleeing to a safe environment.

WarriorDiplomat

01-09-2015, 10:13

Was it ninja or samurai? My understanding is that ninja were as outlawed as the Okinawan farmers knowing martial arts...?

Samurai were the warrior ruling class of Japan and ruled the Island essentially they were the current dynasty.

Ninja were former Samurai also from the warrior ruling class but a different family who had been ousted.

Ninja were from double sword carrying Samurai ruling warrior class families that since they were not in power were not allowed to be armed on Japan but not outside of it. Since they were born and bred warriors they maintained their warrior skills. Ninja were servant to the Samurai as mercenaries and were sent to maintain order in Japanese territories like Okinawa while the Samurai maintained Japan itself.

IRT to your comment about legitimacy, Karate is legitimate just no so much in the U.S or outside of Okinawa for that matter.

The difference between the Samurai and Ninja was the Samurai were Overt and the Ninja operated covert on Japan itself outside of Japan they continued as warriors do. They weren't farmers they weren't craftsman or writers or religious leaders the Ninja were warrior class through and through.