View Full Version : Interesting Picture
Flipping through the recent issue of ARMY magazine, I come across this picture of a fire team in the FCS BCT. Notice the camo pattern they're wearing. I wonder if this is simply from left over stock at CIF from an old experiment, or if it shows things to come.
Thats Multi CAM. But the Army decided to go with those Blue Uniforms instead. I believe that picture is from the actual testing years ago.
I found it amusing that one soldier is using an Xbox controller to operate a SUGV.
How the "F" did Multi Cam lose? Can someone explain? :confused:
How the "F" did Multi Cam lose? Can someone explain? :confused:
My theory is money and the rush to get a new uniform out.
S3Project
12-12-2007, 23:05
kgoerz,
If I recall correctly, the photo comes from a Future Force Warrior exercise circa early 2007. But I may be incorrect.
Regards,
Derek
How the "F" did Multi Cam lose? Can someone explain? :confused:Stay safe.
Yeah, I kinda like the ACUs...it's 'retro'... Retro back to frickin the Confederacy’s gray uniforms.
I want to know what the hell an ACU pattern is supposed to blend into? Hesco barriers? Was they guy who picked it color blind?
Too bad we didn't get multi cam, pretty squared away pattern and co. I understand AF PJ s are wearing them in the field.
dave
The Reaper
12-13-2007, 08:25
Nobody I know likes the ACU camo pattern, or thinks that it is very effective.
It is less effective than the BDU or DBDU, and much less effective than the Crye.
Few people I have spoken with like the material, or the design of the uniform either.
As mentioned before, it appears to be a uniform designed by and for an office pogue. Probably blends in well with the grey steel desks and filing cabinets, or the UNICOR cubicle colors.
The Crye uniforms might have had a better chance had they not cost ten times more than the BDU, and five times as much as the ACU. No one but the AF can afford them.
Personally, I thought that having everyone from all services in the same camo pattern and uniform made target ID much easier, and reduced the chances for fratricide, but what do I know?
TR
There was a more recent photo on the front page of The Bayonet at Ft. Benning a few weeks ago. Some sort of technology demo, I don't recall the specifics, but I do find it interesting that Multicam keeps popping up whenever the Army wants to look extra spiffy.
There was a more recent photo on the front page of The Bayonet at Ft. Benning a few weeks ago. Some sort of technology demo, I don't recall the specifics, but I do find it interesting that Multicam keeps popping up whenever the Army wants to look extra spiffy.
Hopefully it is only a matter of time until Multi Cam is the new Army camo although I am not going hold my breath. Oh yeah, and you can have the black beret back too.
Thats Multi CAM. But the Army decided to go with those Blue Uniforms instead. I believe that picture is from the actual testing years ago.
Its actually a recent pic of Future Combat System Spin 1, which is what caught my eye, given they're still wearing MC and haven't switched over to ACUs. ;)
GreenSalsa
12-13-2007, 11:08
Personally, I thought that having everyone from all services in the same camo pattern and uniform made target ID much easier, and reduced the chances for fratricide, but what do I know?
BINGO! Can someone please explain to me why Marine Infantry and Army Infantry have to have separate field uniforms?
Can you imagine what it would be like to resupply a joint unit in the field today...
"I need six sets of Marine Corps Desert, 4 sets of Army ACU and a side order of whatever the AF is wearing these days...."
I liked it MUCH better when we all wore the same thing.
Does anyone on the board know who actually tests camo uniforms (Natick?, QM School? Contractors?) and how?
Just off the top of my head, I would think that soldiers would decked out in various camo patterns and appear / pop up / move in a variety of terrain (urban and otherwise) and observers would be timed on how quickly the individuals can be located / counted. The best camo would delay identification and tracking the longest.
Same everything, but with mannikins on rifle ranges to see which camo uniform causes the most trouble for shooters to get a good sight picture. As a minimum, what if five popup targets were decked out in:
1 - Jungles or OG 107 fatigues
2 - In ACU
3 - In Multi Cam
4 - In Desert BDU Chocolate Chips
5 - In green BDU's.
and experienced markmen took turns shooting at each of them at all ranges from 50 - 300 meters, iron sights and assisted sights. Maybe on a qualification range. Then plot a chart of which ones got hit the most, and which ones got hit the least. Least is better.
Same everything, but with mannikins on rifle ranges to see which camo uniform causes the most trouble for shooters to get a good sight picture. As a minimum, what if five popup targets were decked out in:
1 - Jungles or OG 107 fatigues
2 - In ACU
3 - In Multi Cam
4 - In Desert BDU Chocolate Chips
5 - In green BDU's.
and experienced markmen took turns shooting at each of them at all ranges from 50 - 300 meters, iron sights and assisted sights. Maybe on a qualification range. Then plot a chart of which ones got hit the most, and which ones got hit the least. Least is better.
Hmm, destructive testing, I like the way you think! :D
Eri7ch80
12-13-2007, 14:57
kgoerz,
If I recall correctly, the photo comes from a Future Force Warrior exercise circa early 2007. But I may be incorrect.
Regards,
Derek
As kgoerz mentioned these uniforms are being tested in conjunction with the Future Force Warrior Exercise. The Future Force program basically tests the new high tech equipment that the military wishes to one day effectively utilize in a combat environment. Basically think of Ghost Recon the Video game and image those types of systems being implemented into reality. As to their effectiveness in a rigorous combat environment.........well that's a whole different issue!!
As for the Muti-cams themselves they resemble the types of patterns found in Northern European countries such as Norway and Sweden, with the exception of having different color schemes. As for the effectiveness of the camouflage Multi-Cam pattern itself, I can personally verify that it is much more effective in a woodland environment than anything that is currently being used.
It's ironic, but the method that CSB (minus all the shooting) posted is basically the method we used to determine which type of uniform would blend in the best. We set up virtually every type of uniform in use by the US Gov; ACU's, brown dyed ACU's, BDU, DCU's, Marine DCU's (both types), Old school OD Green's, and some foreign uniforms, in a woodland environment. We then were about 300 meters away with spotting scopes and tried to identify the different types of camo patterns. From my personal experience the Multi-Cams blended in the best followed by the Marine Pixilated woodland pattern. All in all, much better than ACU's, BDU's. ...etc.
The uniforms themselves also have incorporated under amour, whereby you have a poly blend fabric for the torso portion, with only actual Muti-Cam material for sleeves. This is so that you can throw on you kit/body amour over your uniform and in theory not overheat as much as you would with a regular BDU/ACU uniform.
Supposedly (rumors of course) the army is going to switch from the current ACU pattern to the multi-cams with-in 5 years. Not really sure how likely that is due to the nature of large government contracts, but only time will tell.
I hope this was a little informative and if you have any questions regarding this issue please feel free to send me a message and I'll tell what I can.
As kgoerz mentioned these uniforms are being tested in conjunction with the Future Force Warrior Exercise. The Future Force program basically tests the new high tech equipment that the military wishes to one day effectively utilize in a combat environment. Basically think of Ghost Recon the Video game and image those types of systems being implemented into reality. As to their effectiveness in a rigorous combat environment.........well that's a whole different issue!!
As for the Muti-cams themselves they resemble the types of patterns found in Northern European countries such as Norway and Sweden, with the exception of having different color schemes. As for the effectiveness of the camouflage Multi-Cam pattern itself, I can personally verify that it is much more effective in a woodland environment than anything that is currently being used.
It's ironic, but the method that CSB (minus all the shooting) posted is basically the method we used to determine which type of uniform would blend in the best. We set up virtually every type of uniform in use by the US Gov; ACU's, brown dyed ACU's, BDU, DCU's, Marine DCU's (both types), Old school OD Green's, and some foreign uniforms, in a woodland environment. We then were about 300 meters away with spotting scopes and tried to identify the different types of camo patterns. From my personal experience the Multi-Cams blended in the best followed by the Marine Pixilated woodland pattern. All in all, much better than ACU's, BDU's. ...etc.
The uniforms themselves also have incorporated under amour, whereby you have a poly blend fabric for the torso portion, with only actual Muti-Cam material for sleeves. This is so that you can throw on you kit/body amour over your uniform and in theory not overheat as much as you would with a regular BDU/ACU uniform.
Supposedly (rumors of course) the army is going to switch from the current ACU pattern to the multi-cams with-in 5 years. Not really sure how likely that is due to the nature of large government contracts, but only time will tell.
I hope this was a little informative and if you have any questions regarding this issue please feel free to send me a message and I'll tell what I can.
The Web Sight Milspec Monkey or something close to that has the testing data also. Was pretty interesting reading. Multi Cam didn't have a name when the testing was conducted and they are refereed to as Contractor in the write up. Interesting photos there also.
As stated above, when the Dept. of Army went looking for a new uniform pattern, MC was never considered. It was part of the Future Force project and that is where it remains. What I have not read is whether Crye decided not to enter the process for consideration, similiar to HK's decission not to enter for the new SOCOM rifle, or if Crye was left out on the Army side. Either way, it has got to be one of the worst decissions made by the higher ups. What makes it even worst is that they continue throw away good money after bad. As far as it's effectiveness, I will neither confirm nor deny that I have seen it's effects in an environment similar to that of A-stan and it beats all others hands down, especially the ACU pattern.
As far as multiple services having different uniforms, there is some regulation/policy letter that states each service hold proprietary rights over their uniforms and another service must obtain written consent to use said uniform design. When the BDU was selected by Dept. of the Army way back when, each service was granted rights to use the design. With that, we can blame the USMC for our current state of field uniforms as they were the first to break ranks and go another route. :P
The grape vine has a rumor that there is a push within USASOC to convert to MC in the near future. Only time will tell if the powers that be will sign off on it.
As for the Muti-cams themselves they resemble the types of patterns found in Northern European countries such as Norway and Sweden, with the exception of having different color schemes.
Thanks for the info, but I was wondering if you had any links or pictures of the Scanadanavian camo schemes you're referencing. I served alongside Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish and Danish troops in the mid-90s, and back then they all sported a variation of either the large-block or 'flecktarn' camo schemes seen here:
http://www.geocities.com/canuck_infantry/Swedish_M90.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/canuck_infantry/Danish_M-84.jpg
A Google search on swedish and norwegian camouflage didn't pull up any differing results. Have our viking cousins switched to a new camouflage pattern recently?
It's ironic, but the method that CSB (minus all the shooting) posted is basically the method we used to determine which type of uniform would blend in the best. We set up virtually every type of uniform in use by the US Gov; ACU's, brown dyed ACU's, BDU, DCU's, Marine DCU's (both types), Old school OD Green's, and some foreign uniforms, in a woodland environment. We then were about 300 meters away with spotting scopes and tried to identify the different types of camo patterns.
Was this a unit internal test, or were you part of a larger Army/Natick testing program at the time?
The uniforms themselves also have incorporated under amour, whereby you have a poly blend fabric for the torso portion, with only actual Muti-Cam material for sleeves. This is so that you can throw on you kit/body amour over your uniform and in theory not overheat as much as you would with a regular BDU/ACU uniform.
On this note, did you see where the Army has taken this particular design and made it part of the ACU for wear under body armor? I think its very interesting how they kept the characteristics of a wicking, stretch material, but were able to make it flash-proof. This could have potential for further uniform improvements.
Supposedly (rumors of course) the army is going to switch from the current ACU pattern to the multi-cams with-in 5 years.
Was there any validity to the source of this rumor, or just wishful thinking by Joe?
Thanks for the info, but I was wondering if you had any links or pictures of the Scanadanavian camo schemes you're referencing.
I sent Tuukka a PM and told him to wake up and join in. Little dark up there right now, he might be hibernating. Being a Finn he should have some good input on the Arctic Circle Gang.
Pete
Is Crye Precision the same as multi cam? 5th Group CIF is using the Crye Precision uniform only on missions. Sucks for them, since they have ACU, DCU, and the Crye uniform.
Geez1234
12-14-2007, 01:40
Is Crye Precision the same as multi cam? 5th Group CIF is using the Crye Precision uniform only on missions. Sucks for them, since they have ACU, DCU, and the Crye uniform.
I believe that Crye Precision is the licensed owner of the MultiCam pattern, but they have various agreements with other companies who have begun producing their own products in MultiCam (Tru-Spec for example). Thus, Crye has its MultiCam uniforms, but there are others floating around out there too.
I sent Tuukka a PM and told him to wake up and join in. Little dark up there right now, he might be hibernating. Being a Finn he should have some good input on the Arctic Circle Gang.
Pete
Pete, thanks for the heads up
Ok, here are the current camo patterns in use over here;
Finland
M62 ( Old but still in use )
http://tietokannat.mil.fi/pyry2007/include/thumbnail.php?id=36&width=640
http://www.mil.fi/merivoimat/joukot/esukeltajat/radio2.jpg
M91
http://tietokannat.mil.fi/kalustoesittely/media/1083662005_01.7.62_RK_62.jpg
http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/utjr/c2.jpg
M05 summer ( New and I believe for conscripts it is now only a BDU that is used for going on leave and not for the field but will be replacing older patterns in the future )
We had the trial version of the M05 suit ( K05 ) but it was not in a digital pattern.
http://tietokannat.mil.fi/kalustoesittely/media/1112074324_Taistelijanvaat_2PIENI.JPG
http://www.mil.fi/rauhanturvaaja/get2data.php?id=301
M05 winter
http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/karpr/sah_kg51_iso.jpg
M05 warm weather ( For peacekeepers, similar to German desert flecktarn )
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6486/14hy5.jpg
Sweden
M90
http://www.mil.se/int/images/local/fs10_v543_ankomst_1.jpg
M90 desert
http://www.mil.se/int/images/local/fs09_v526_hastpatrull.jpg
Norway
Woodland
http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00091/Take_17_91273a.jpg
Desert
http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00635/NORSKE_SOLDATER_000_635072s.jpg
Denmark
M/84
http://www.flv.dk/billeder/Stinger_01.jpg
M/84 desert
http://www.thm.dk/udstil/pics/billede_501stor.jpg
Tuukka;
Good pictures.
Finland, Sweden and Norway seem to be based on the same large splotch greens and tans paterns.
Contractors up there scratching each other's back?:D
Pete
Tuukka;
Good pictures.
Finland, Sweden and Norway seem to be based on the same large splotch greens and tans paterns.
Contractors up there scratching each other's back?:D
Pete
Dont know about that...
But if one takes a look at the terrain and vegetation, we are all pretty similar.
Sadly I could not find a picture of the Swedes wearing their issued hair nets :D
To be honest, I'm a fan of larger block camo. After 100m or so, everything else tends to blur into a single color, which is effective for matching a background, but does little for breaking up an outline.
I heard MC wasnt considered because it isn't digital. Since digital stuff is all the hype these days it was doomed. I've seen GROM wearing MC or something like it. ACUs aren't good for anything hardly. They tear easily and don't blend in. I hope what some of the guys have heard is true and we go to something else.
Pete, thanks for the heads up
Ok, here are the current camo patterns in use over here;
Most of those remind me of the camo used by the WWII Wehrmacht.
Nobody I know likes the ACU camo pattern, or thinks that it is very effective.
Few people I have spoken with like the material, or the design of the uniform either.
As mentioned before, it appears to be a uniform designed by and for an office pogue. Probably blends in well with the grey steel desks and filing cabinets, or the UNICOR cubicle colors.
Sorry to beat a dead horse sir but I couldn't agree more. Being a short guy, I had every one of my issued ACU crotches ripped out within days of issue due to them being so low cut. I like the security of velcro pockets but their so fucking loud to open I thank the lord nothing we did in Iraq or Afghanistan was a noise-discipline enviroment.
Monsoon65
01-11-2008, 21:01
Personally, I thought that having everyone from all services in the same camo pattern and uniform made target ID much easier, and reduced the chances for fratricide, but what do I know?
Made sense to me. And I also liked it because I could go to any clothing sales on any base/post the US Military has and pick up BDUs, if needed.
The AF ABU isn't much better than the ACU. I think we have a bit of blue in ours, but it's difficult to tell the colors apart. We do have that cool tiger stripe pattern, tho.
I also heard about some PJs in Hurlburt wearing the MC uniforms. No idea where they got those.
Did anyone notice in the movie, "Transformers" that the ODA was wearing MC? My nephew picked that out and asked me what sort of uniforms they were wearing.
Made sense to me. And I also liked it because I could go to any clothing sales on any base/post the US Military has and pick up BDUs, if needed.
The AF ABU isn't much better than the ACU. I think we have a bit of blue in ours, but it's difficult to tell the colors apart. We do have that cool tiger stripe pattern, tho.
I also heard about some PJs in Hurlburt wearing the MC uniforms. No idea where they got those.
Did anyone notice in the movie, "Transformers" that the ODA was wearing MC? My nephew picked that out and asked me what sort of uniforms they were wearing.
Yeah, I noticed that too. I think it was only the first half though. They were back into ACUs for the last part. (With the exception of the AF CCT)
If you search the web for some videos of the Army Marksmanship Team, you'll find them wearing khaki Crye combat pants.
Today&Tomorrow
01-13-2008, 07:23
BINGO! Can someone please explain to me why Marine Infantry and Army Infantry have to have separate field uniforms?
Can you imagine what it would be like to resupply a joint unit in the field today...
"I need six sets of Marine Corps Desert, 4 sets of Army ACU and a side order of whatever the AF is wearing these days...."
I liked it MUCH better when we all wore the same thing.
Because the Marine Corps Chain of Command has the mentality that all our shit has to have the EGA (Eagle, Globe & Anchor) on it because we are the "Marines". Someone above my pay grade up high thinks we have to have different uniforms because we have to be able to stick out from the other services, but never thought about the issue of supply. Trust me though the diggies blow compared to the old woodlands & tricolors... But who am I? I am just a little guy on the totem pole... I am going to crawl back in my hole now..
The only place I've found the ACUs blend really well is the parking lots around Bagram. For goodness sakes, don't lay down anywere on Camp Vance. You'll get stepped on or run over for sure!!! I've been changing most of my kit over to MC over the past year. I work at Mackall and it blends in great out there.
The only place I've seen it work well is on a rock face - and there it's pretty good. I mean, we all know how often we're scaling rock faces enroute to the ORP... Why give up that camo for something that works in the woods or the desert? I mean, really, how often are we there??? :rolleyes:
Yeah, I kinda like the ACUs...it's 'retro'... Retro back to frickin the Confederacy’s gray uniforms.
I want to know what the hell an ACU pattern is supposed to blend into? Hesco barriers? Was they guy who picked it color blind?
Too bad we didn't get multi cam, pretty squared away pattern and co. I understand AF PJ s are wearing them in the field.
dave
LeapingGnome
01-20-2008, 16:46
a pogue friend of mine(unit withheld for the sake of embarrassment) said he loves them because you don't have to starch/iron them.....
dewygman
06-22-2008, 17:18
I have a good friend from my old unit who landed a pogue job at AMC (Army Materials Command) somehow as a "Infantry expert" testing new night vision equipment for the Army. Ineveitably, hes involved in a lot of stuff the army is putting out there. So I asked him about ACU's and why the hell the Army thought they were such a great idea. He told me that the Army is looking at the soldier as more of a piece of equipment than a person nowadays. I agree. Anyway, a soldier wearing ACU's at night is difficult to see with NOD's. Since we "own the night" and the enemy has night vision capabilities, the ACU was supposed to apparently help us keep our advantage over the enemy. 1st hand experience, i dont think they make that much of a difference at all. I wanna wear MC's.
Defender968
06-23-2008, 09:15
Made sense to me. And I also liked it because I could go to any clothing sales on any base/post the US Military has and pick up BDUs, if needed.
The AF ABU isn't much better than the ACU. I think we have a bit of blue in ours, but it's difficult to tell the colors apart. We do have that cool tiger stripe pattern, tho.
I also heard about some PJs in Hurlburt wearing the MC uniforms. No idea where they got those.
Did anyone notice in the movie, "Transformers" that the ODA was wearing MC? My nephew picked that out and asked me what sort of uniforms they were wearing.
Agree with the AF pattern not being any better than the ACU, but as bad as the ACU is I'd still take it over the ABU with it's completely ridiculous extra crap. I mean come on a map pocket made up of 3 layers of fabric that covers your entire chest (which is completely useless with body armor on) and yes that's 4 layers of winter weight starch free, wrinkle proof :rolleyes: fabric over your heart in a uniform that we're deploying with to the desert :confused: good call uniform board! The same exact useless pockets (again when wearing armor) as were in the BDU/DCU, WOW how revolutionary! :mad:. A freaking wrench pocket WTF, A PDA pocket just what my guys need, and no less than 6 pen pockets, yea Airmen Battle Uniform my A$$! The company who designed it calls it the Airmen Barracks Uniform. :rolleyes: But it does achieve two things... it shows how out of touch the AF leadership was/is with their real battlefield airmen and what they need, and it keeps us from having to starch our uniforms. Give me a set of BDU/DCU's anyday.
http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/airforcetiger.htm
Note to the ranks: When we started the uniform project in 2002, USAF Leadership informed us that 97% of AF personnel did not need a battle uniform but rather a barracks utility work uniform. Leadership ultimately received exactly what they asked for. The resulting uniform is that barracks utility work uniform.
I have a good friend from my old unit who landed a pogue job at AMC (Army Materials Command) somehow as a "Infantry expert" testing new night vision equipment for the Army. Ineveitably, hes involved in a lot of stuff the army is putting out there. So I asked him about ACU's and why the hell the Army thought they were such a great idea. He told me that the Army is looking at the soldier as more of a piece of equipment than a person nowadays. I agree. Anyway, a soldier wearing ACU's at night is difficult to see with NOD's. Since we "own the night" and the enemy has night vision capabilities, the ACU was supposed to apparently help us keep our advantage over the enemy. 1st hand experience, i dont think they make that much of a difference at all. I wanna wear MC's.
I found out during my Iraq deployment ACUs are excellent in low light situations and it is hard to pick them out through NODs. There are only a few advantages out of many disadvantages. Big Army thinking:confused:
dewygman
07-05-2008, 23:32
I found out during my Iraq deployment ACUs are excellent in low light situations and it is hard to pick them out through NODs. There are only a few advantages out of many disadvantages. Big Army thinking:confused:
yep, big army. we definately need a new camo pattern. MC is the way to go
NoRoadtrippin
07-06-2008, 09:35
I have it on semi-good authority that 3/75th is wearing MC on their current deployment. They're supposed to pick them up in a famous beer-loving country en route to their final destination. Maybe some photos will pop up once they get in country.
The most recent rumors I have been hearing is that the Army will be changing over to the Multi Cam uniform "soon" (meaning 5 - 10 years).
The Reaper
07-21-2008, 08:05
The most recent rumors I have been hearing is that the Army will be changing over to the Multi Cam uniform "soon" (meaning 5 - 10 years).
Hey, Beav, you might want to reread the registration message you were sent, or at least read the stickies and rules and comply before posting further.
TR
Cedo Nulli
10-20-2008, 13:17
Typically lurk the site, but I've got some knowledge/experience with MC...
and not to further rumors, but the same the Beav brought up was also related to me by the Army 4 shop guys here this past week actually...so somewhere it's gotten out to the Army rumor channels.
I've seen a few joes come through the FOB rocking MC, but primarily been PMCs, but there have been some unknowns on/off I've seen also.
Monsoon65,
I've worn the MC out on a SERE exercise stateside, and the Pjs were outfitted in same, but I've only seem them wearing ACU here in the sandbox. I have to agree about the ABU, and as Defender said, I hate the ABUs...such a horrible mistake. Personally, I hope there is vailidity in the MC rumors and those of us who work ILO will also follow suit, as we should have done with the ACU and not spent millions on the POS ABU.
Defender,
You should know by now the big AF doesn't take care of "us". We're treated much better by the Army (usually).
How the "F" did Multi Cam lose? Can someone explain? :confused:
Not sure if MC was part of the down select but I do have info on how the ACU pattern was selected. Some well meaning officer decided to creat a "universal" cammo pattern. He did this by combining colors from the three most common combat AO's.
Urban = grey
Desert = tan
Woodland = green
What he did not understand was the hue affect. Up close the pattern would be distinguishable. As you move away from the pattern the colors combine to form a common hue (color). In the case of the ACU it is in the blue range. This is the primary reason why the ACU does not blend in with anything. Normally when a pattern is chossen for consideration it goes through a lengthy testing process by the alphabet soup of labs. In the case of the ACU, this testing process was shortened because of the percieved need to get the new uniform out on the street. So instead of choosing a pattern based on scientific testing, it was chosen because it was the "coolest looking". The scientific community that is responsible for the testing process attempted to protest but was squashed, again by well meaning officers.
The fact that the pattern performs well under NODs is more due to the fabric used and not the camoflauge. But the same stuff that makes the uniform NOD invisible and wrinkle free also makes it highly flamable. So you have that to also add to the list of negatives.