View Full Version : Coverage of Shooting Fails to Reveal Mall's Gun-Free-Zone
The Reaper
12-07-2007, 10:03
If I am going out somewhere with my family, and there is a "Gun-Free" sign posted, count me as a law-breaker.
I am a sheepdog, and will not be standing by while they, or other innocents are harmed.
Better that they live, and I will deal with the consequences.
TR
Media Coverage of Mall Shooting Fails to Reveal Mall's Gun-Free-Zone Status Thursday , December 06, 2007
By John R. Lott, Jr.
The horrible tragedy at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Neb. received a lot of attention Wednesday and Thursday. It should have. Eight people were killed, and five were wounded.
A Google news search using the phrase "Omaha Mall Shooting" finds an incredible 2,794 news stories worldwide for the last day. From India and Taiwan to Britain and Austria, there are probably few people in the world who haven't heard about this tragedy.
But despite the massive news coverage, none of the media coverage, at least by 10 a.m. Thursday, mentioned this central fact: Yet another attack occurred in a gun-free zone.
Surely, with all the reporters who appear at these crime scenes and seemingly interview virtually everyone there, why didn't one simply mention the signs that ban guns from the premises?
Nebraska allows people to carry permitted concealed handguns, but it allows property owners, such as the Westroads Mall, to post signs banning permit holders from legally carrying guns on their property.
The same was true for the attack at the Trolley Square Mall in Utah in February (a copy of the sign at the mall can be seen here). But again the media coverage ignored this fact. Possibly the ban there was even more noteworthy because the off-duty police officer who stopped the attack fortunately violated the ban by taking his gun in with him when he went shopping.
Yet even then, the officer "was at the opposite end and on a different floor of the convoluted Trolley Square complex when the shooting began. By the time he became aware of the shooting and managed to track down and confront Talovic [the killer], three minutes had elapsed."
There are plenty of cases every year where permit holders stop what would have been multiple victim shootings every year, but they rarely receive any news coverage. Take a case this year in Memphis, where WBIR-TV reported a gunman started "firing a pistol beside a busy city street" and was stopped by two permit holders before anyone was harmed.
When will part of the media coverage on these multiple-victim public shootings be whether guns were banned where the attack occurred? While the media has begun to cover whether teachers can have guns at school or the almost 8,000 college students across the country who protested gun-free zones on their campuses, the media haven't started checking what are the rules where these attacks occur.
Surely, the news stories carry detailed information on the weapon used (in this case, a rifle) and the number of ammunition clips apparently, two). But if these aspects of the story are deemed important for understanding what happened, why isn't it also important that the attack occurred where guns were banned? Isn't it important to know why all the victims were disarmed?
Few know that Dylan Klebold, one of the two Columbine killers, closely was following Colorado legislation that would have allowed citizens to carry a concealed handgun. Klebold strongly opposed the legislation and openly talked about it.
No wonder, as the bill being debated would have allowed permitted guns to be carried on school property. It is quite a coincidence that he attacked the Columbine High School the very day the legislature was scheduled to vote on the bill.
Despite the lack of news coverage, people are beginning to notice what research has shown for years: Multiple-victim public shootings keep
occurring in places where guns already are banned. Forty states have broad right-to-carry laws, but even within these states it is the "gun-free zones," not other public places, where the attacks happen.
People know the list: Virginia Tech saw 32 murdered earlier this year; the Columbine High School shooting left 13 murdered in 1999; Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, had 23 who were fatally shot by a deranged man in 1991; and a McDonald's in Southern California had 21 people shot dead by an unemployed security guard in 1984.
All these attacks - indeed, all attacks involving more than a small number of people being killed - happened in gun-free zones.
In recent years, similar attacks have occurred across the world, including in Australia, France, Germany and Britain. Do all these countries lack
enough gun-control laws? Hardly. The reverse is more accurate.
The law-abiding, not criminals, are obeying the rules. Disarming the victims simply means that the killers have less to fear. As Wednesday's attack demonstrated yet again, police are important, but they almost always arrive at the crime scene after the crime has occurred.
The longer it takes for someone to arrive on the scene with a gun, the more people who will be harmed by such an attack.
Team Sergeant
12-07-2007, 10:07
westcor owns the big malls here in the Phoenix area, all are "Gun Free Zones", no CCW allowed, no knives, etc.
I do my shopping else where.
Team Sergeant
If I am going out somewhere with my family, and there is a "Gun-Free" sign posted, count me as a law-breaker.
I am a sheepdog, and will not be standing by while they, or other innocents are harmed.
Better that they live, and I will deal with the consequences.
I just hope my kids and I are shopping at the same mall as you are if something like this goes down. I'm pretty sure everyone in Omaha is wishing the same thing.
I've never understood the point of gun-free zones. If someone is planning on going in to commit a crime with a gun they probably don't care if it is a gun-free zone or not. I'm seriously doubting they'll all of the sudden decide to call it all off after seeing the sign. The logic completely escapes me.
Roguish Lawyer
12-07-2007, 11:09
Thanks for posting that, TR.
Snaquebite
12-07-2007, 11:46
TR I'm with you....If there had been only one sheepdog there that day, the outcome could have possibly been a little less devasting. Not familiar with the politics in Omaha but I'm pretty sure at least some would come forward in defense of that sheepdog.
incommin
12-07-2007, 11:54
Our basic problem is that we have sheep writing the laws that dictate how the sheep and sheepdogs must act! They totally ignore the fact that the wolves can't read and or don't care about what laws the sheep pass....
Jim
Smokin Joe
12-07-2007, 12:31
westcor owns the big malls here in the Phoenix area, all are "Gun Free Zones", no CCW allowed, no knives, etc.
I do my shopping else where.
Team Sergeant
TS, the signs are bullshit and there policy is unenforceable because it does not meet all the requirements by law to be enforceable. So feel free to walk past that sign while carrying whatever you want. :cool:
monsterhunter
12-07-2007, 18:35
Our basic problem is that we have sheep writing the laws that dictate how the sheep and sheepdogs must act! They totally ignore the fact that the wolves can't read and or don't care about what laws the sheep pass....
Jim
I couldn't agree with you more. It would appear the sign on the door of the mall worked about as well as any other gun control law. And what better place for the wolves to feed than a place with ,"No sheepdogs past this point" posted at the entrance.
I'm constantly thinking and planning "what if" scenarios in my mind, and this question pops up all the time. V/R I ask you, TR, TS, and the rest of you on this board with much more experience and training then I, what would you do if you found yourself in the same situation, in a mall with a shooter, but with your family?
I know I would want to try to neutralize the threat, but what about your family? I'm not asking for any personal TTPs, but just an idea. Another wrench, what if it's just your Non-QP/LEO friends?
My personal feeling is if the shooter is not in the way, tell them to run. If the shooter IS in the way of the exit, have them hide in a dressing room or bathroom that locks.
Thoughts?
TS, the signs are bullshit and there policy is unenforceable because it does not meet all the requirements by law to be enforceable. So feel free to walk past that sign while carrying whatever you want. :cool:
No question they are bullshit. Every American with any degree of common-sense knows it.
Why are they unenforceable? are you referring to the way the OK law is written or these provisions in general?
Regardless, I am glad to finally hear that somone is at least calling attention to this part of it...All you ever here is about the type of weapon used in these attacks... but never the VERY relevent piece of info that it was a "gun free" zone.
Why are they unenforceable? are you referring to the way the OK law is written or these provisions in general?
In most states, the signage requirements are very specific w/r/t placement and design (size, color of lettering, color of background, language, etc.). In Texas, 90% of the signs do not meet the criteria, so you may go ahead and carry unless you are asked to leave the property, in which case you must do so or risk a trespassing charge.
Joe, is that how it works in AZ?
Patriot007
12-08-2007, 09:53
My personal feeling is if the shooter is not in the way, tell them to run. If the shooter IS in the way of the exit, have them hide in a dressing room or bathroom that locks.
Thoughts?
Although the single shooter scenario may be the most likely, don't forget about the possibility of a multiple shooter attack. In which case you might be telling them to run from your protection, and worst-case scenario right into a premeditated trap.
No professional here, but as a carrying citizen my initial thought is I'm not playing hero until my family/friends are safely escorted out, obviously taking down the bad guy if I have a shot. Also since I don't have a badge hunting said bad guy while LE is responding sounds like bad news. Although my action would vary on location/ anticipated LE response.
The Reaper
12-08-2007, 10:10
If you are actually carrying concealed, no one should notice. I have normally spotted people carrying when they are wearing fanny packs, photo journalist vests, etc. Use a good holster and belt, and make sure that you are adequately covering the piece.
Be aware that most states have, in addition to the signage provision, a list of prohibited establishments like bars, schools, courthouses, etc. You really have to careful and exercise good judgement with those.
jwt, there is no way to answer your question easily. As we say in the military, the answer always depends on terrain and situation. Actually, in this case, OAKOC.
How many shooters are there, are they moving or stationary, if, moving, where are they going, do they appear to be proficient, where are they, where is your family, where are you, where is everyone with respect to the exits, what weapons are they using, what do you have, can they see you, can you see them, do you have cover, can you use the available cover to close the distance, what is the range, can you safely engage them and score hits at that range, etc. etc.?
You learn to analyze all of this on the move, while securing your family and engaging the enemy. The longer you have been at it, the better you will generally be.
Your friends or family should be directed to get down low and seek cover. Generically, your job is to place yourself between the bad guy(s) and the people you are trying to protect, in the best position you can find, and engage them with aimed fire. Practically, you may have to accept risks in order to protect your friends or family.
Don't go out looking for trouble, but if it comes, be ready for it and respond aggressively, preferably within the limits of your lethal force statutes.
TR
No QP here, but have had an active shooter in my AO (who was put down for the dirt nap by a buddy of mine)...
In my opinion, there is no easy answer to your question, as there are waaayyyy too many factors to consider.
What is the distance between my family and the gunman? Does he have a Remington 700PSS, or a snub nosed .38 revolver? Is he moving, or is he engaging from a a position of cover? Is he coming toward me? How crowded is the mall? Does he see me? Etc....
Most importantly, how far are we from the exits?
In all honesty, you can't say "well, if X happens, do Y." It's all going to depend on the situation........ you are just going to have to roll with it.
However, as a "general rule," I would do the following.
1. If I could get my family out of there, I would. I would "body block" along the way, be prepared to engage, and get them out of the mall. I would not separate myself from my family, as you cannot assume that there is only one shooter. Long story short, if I can, I am getting my family out of Dodge. If I get a clean shot while doing that, I'm taking it.
2. If I don't think that I can get them out, then I am putting them in a position of cover and engaging the douche bag. If this happens, I have instructed the wife to IMMEDIATELY call 911 and inform them that a plain clothes cop is on the scene, is armed, and to describe what I have on. Hoefully, a rookie bursting into the mall will get that dispatch and not dump a mag of 5.56 into me.:rolleyes:
Just my .02, others will probably have better advice.
That's more or less what I was thinking as far as protecting those that I'm with. I'm certainly not trained nor full hearty enough to bust out and hunt down said shooter(s) if I'm with my family. I also have to keep in mind I'm not in the military anymore and I'm not a LEO yet, so I have to remember that I'm going to be subject to more scuttany. Luckily Florida has CCW friendly laws.
I also realize that everything in these scenarios is situational dependent. Just looking for other's line of thought. Thanks for the input.
I know this for sure, if I have to fight, I'm fighting on my feet.
You will never know how many shooters are involved right away. Leaving your Family anywhere near the Gun Fire is a risk to them. I'm taking my family and moving out. I carry to protect them. If they are with me that is
monsterhunter
12-08-2007, 20:40
You will never know how many shooters are involved right away. Leaving your Family anywhere near the Gun Fire is a risk to them. I'm taking my family and moving out. I carry to protect them. If they are with me that is
This is my answer under most conditions. There was a member of my department who chose to engage. He had his little girl with him. He put her in what he believed was a good position of cover.
As the thugs exited the store they robbed, he drew down on them and told them to lay their weapons down. They chose not to give up and engaged him. Somehow, they were able to see he had a kid with him. They maneuvered and fired on the little girl, figuring if they took her out, the dad would stop shooting.
They hit the little girl. The dad went over to her. The little girl said, "Daddy it hurts" and then she died.
I have two girls who were about the same age as this guy's little girl when I heard the story. It really hit home.
There are several right answers (I guess). I sure wouldn't want to make the wrong one in this situation.
That makes me sick to my stomach.
Like I said, if you can get your family out, body block them from the shooter and get them out. The only way I would engage some guy was if there was no way out, at which point I would get the best cover possible for my family before engaging.
BTW, if I were that guy, I would make it my life's goal to kill the sh*tbags who shot my daughter. I would go to prison, but they would die by my hands.
BTW, if I were that guy, I would make it my life's goal to kill the sh*tbags who shot my daughter. I would go to prison, but they would die by my hands.
I concur!:mad:
monsterhunter
12-08-2007, 22:21
If I remember correctly, both wound up in prison on unrelated charges. They got picked up for the murder after being snitched off by another inmate. One of them was bragging about the incident and it apparently sickened another inmate, at least enough to drop the dime.
I never heard much more about the case, but may they rot in freakin' hell.
Smokin Joe
12-08-2007, 23:41
No question they are bullshit. Every American with any degree of common-sense knows it.
Why are they unenforceable? are you referring to the way the OK law is written or these provisions in general?
Regardless, I am glad to finally hear that somone is at least calling attention to this part of it...All you ever here is about the type of weapon used in these attacks... but never the VERY relevent piece of info that it was a "gun free" zone.
I was speaking specifically about westcor, there signage, as well as they do not provide a secure location with singluar access to controlled lockboxes for storage of weapons at their point of entry.
All of these element MUST be meet in the state of Arizona in order for a no weapon zone to be implamented. Failure of the establishment to provide all of the above results in their policy not being enforceable.... in Arizona that is. There is the exception of airports, prisions, jails, court house, etc. But public or private businesses must provide all of the above or you can walk right on by there little sign.
tom kelly
12-09-2007, 07:20
This is a joke to the criminal's, They see this as an opportunity to take advantage of the law abiding public. In Phila.Pa. a segment of the criminal population think nothing of shooting at and in some cases killing armed and uniformed police officers. Guess what they think about attacking the average unarmed civillan? There have been close to 400 murders in the city so far. The ultra liberal left politicans blame the NRA and call for more gun control laws. The Gov. of Pa. implores the State Legislator's to pass more stringent gun control laws, which they have rejected to do.Meanwhile the Gov. WILL NOT sign a death warrent to execute a convicted cop killer,who has been on death row since 1981. The former Gov. of Pa. Tom Ridge signed the death warrent 3 times only to have it set aside by some liberal Federal Judge. The District Attorney of Phila. blames the NRA for the gun violence,but in a recent murder case where a uniformed police officer was ambushed and killed with a shotgun blast to the neck while responding to a armed robbery in progress. The DA accepted a plea bargin by the defendent and his attorney to pled guilty to the crime of 1st degree murder for a life sentence. This is not a deterrent to murders and other criminals who will exchange gunfire with police, Let alone a sign that indicates the area as a GUN FREE ZONE...Regards, tom kelly
Ambush Master
12-09-2007, 08:26
If you don't know this already, remember the BIG DIFFERENCE between Cover and Concealment!!! Cover STOPS Bullets CONCEALMENT DOSEN'T!!!
Hiding behind a Clothes Rack = Concealment, whereas hiding behind a Safe = Cover!!
For carrying in States other than your own, I highly recommend looking up the Concealed Carry Laws for each State, they vary a lot!! For example, in Texas you can carry in a Bar unless it has 51% Signage Posted. The funny part about this is that I have seen more of this Signage INSIDE THE SECURE AREAS OF DFW AIRPORT than anywhere else!!!:D
Take care.
Martin
Some indicators of an armed individual....
1. Determine strong side. Wristwatches are usually worn on the weak/support hand and first steps are usually taken with weak leg. Strong hand is used for most functions such as rolling dice, adjusting crotch, making gang signs, hold and moving objects such as a 40oz, lighting a smoke etc. Statistically 85-90% of humans are right handed.
2. Most suspects who carry illegally tuck the gun into the right front waisband area between naval and hip. Second place to look is the small of the back. There is also an excellent chance the gun will be unholsterd which is our advantage because the gun will tend to move and be unbalanced.
3. When on the move look for the security feel/touch. Suspects fear the gun will move or slip and will at times touch it. This can be conscious or subconsciously movement sometimes immediately prior to the suspect displaying the gun. I personally have never run into a bad guy on the street using a holster...they all carry loose. The idiots think they can draw faster without it.
4. Obviusly look for bulges. Given todays baggy clothing this is not the most reliable method. In the summer it may be of some use however.
5. Clothing. Is it appropriate for the season? Is a jacket zippered or unzipped? Is the suspect wearing one glove? Is coat weighted down on one side or pocket? Does the coat bounce or swing with suspect movement?Fanny pack? Many biker gangs conceal guns in boots or special pockets sewn into their colors. Male bikers will often have their females carry thinking the female is less likely to be searched.