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echoes
11-06-2007, 17:40
Greetings. I hope it is okay to ask this question...I have searched some forums with this key-word...and none had any specific information?
i.e. http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8034&highlight=mace

Since I have been looking on the net, have found tons of Mace links, with all sorts of reviews. Would anyone here have a tip to a favorite for the females in their 6?

Thank You,

Holly

adal
11-06-2007, 17:43
ASP key defender on all our key chains with some kubaton training w/ it. Not MACE but pepper spray. adal

echoes
11-06-2007, 17:57
ASP key defender on all our key chains with some kubaton training w/ it. Not MACE but pepper spray. adal

Sir, Thank You. Pepper spray is better than mace then. Good to know. :)

Holly

Edit to add: Reason I ask...My apt magr says we cannot lock the closets in our outer hallway, due to fire-dept regs. Since it could be a spot for anyone wanting to "attack", I think carrying something will help boost the chances of success to get away.

Holly

The Reaper
11-06-2007, 19:32
Holly:

Correct, not Mace, but pepper spray, or more correctly, OC spray.

Fox Labs is the nastiest, most powerful stuff I have seen.

http://www.foxlabs.net/Products.html

Make sure to ask a competent local cop about civilian carry of OC.

I would prefer a good firearm with ready access, but most women cannot seem to keep a firearm concealed on them yet able to get to it quickly. The OC is probably the best best bet for you.

TR

echoes
11-06-2007, 19:36
Holly:

Correct, not Mace, but pepper spray, or more correctly, OC spray.

Fox Labs is the nastiest, most powerful stuff I have seen.

http://www.foxlabs.net/Products.html

Make sure to ask a competent local cop about civilian carry of OC.

I would prefer a good firearm with ready access, but most women cannot seem to keep a firearm concealed on them yet able to get to it quickly. The OC is probably the best best bet for you.

TR

TR, Thank You Sir. Will check that ASAP!

Holly

Remington Raidr
11-06-2007, 19:40
Sir, Thank You. Pepper spray is better than mace then. Good to know. :)

Holly

Edit to add: Reason I ask...My apt magr says we cannot lock the closets in our outer hallway, due to fire-dept regs. Since it could be a spot for anyone wanting to "attack", I think carrying something will help boost the chances of success to get away.

Holly

In some states, OC (pepper) spray is legal to carry for self-defense. Mace is generally restricted to law enforcement officers. You don't list your location, but you may want to ask an attorney or do an on-line search of your state laws. You can ask the local constabulary, but be sure to get the citation to the law.

Remeber, OC spray is legally a weapon, and you had better be ready to justify your use of it, but if in doubt, let fly. Hopefully, the attacker will fold up in pain. Apologize and advise the attacker that rubbing his or her eyes only makes it worse, and to open the eyes wide to let the pepper evaporate. When they do juice them again. Retreat to a safe location and CALL THE POLICE. Report the incident and stress that you feared for your safety. Prepare to be investigated.

If you go with the keychain thingy, you are more likely to forget you are carrying it as you try to go thru airport security or travel to another state where carrying it is contrary to state law. That would be bad.

I always keep it in my front jacket or pants pocket and if approached by some knucklehead who wants to know what time it is, do I have a quarter, when do the buses stop running, etc. or whatever a potential mugger might ask, I just keep it at the ready in my pocket. Unless he displays a firearm, I am going to tell him that is close enough, and if he closes the distance, then to me, legally that is good enough. I have never had to use it or even pull it out. No one ever wants to find out what I have in my pocket.:D

MAB32
11-06-2007, 21:43
Remeber, OC spray is legally a weapon, and you had better be ready to justify your use of it, but if in doubt, let fly. Hopefully, the attacker will fold up in pain. Apologize and advise the attacker that rubbing his or her eyes only makes it worse, and to open the eyes wide to let the pepper evaporate. When they do juice them again. Retreat to a safe location and CALL THE POLICE. Report the incident and stress that you feared for your safety. Prepare to be investigated.


I don't think that is good advice to give to a woman carrying OC. We use to tell the woman to get the Fox brand and buy at least three of them. One for the purse/pocket, one for the vehicle, and one to practice with. We used both the spray and the stream versions and both have advantages and disadvantages.

We also taught them that if you ever had to use it and to use it when in doubt, that you DO NOT stick around. OC buys you time to escape and that is exactly what you do. Once in a safe area, like your vehicle a mile down the road you then get on the phone and call the authorities and give them all information pertaining to the incident. By the way, you still must keep driving away from the attack. Just wanted you to know that in case we have a miss-communication here. You also DO NOT give the person instructions on how to ease their pain. It hurts for a reason. Another problem we found with women using OC, especially in the early days, was their nature to help someone screaming in pain. This went with the fact even if they caused the pain intentionally to escape harm. So avoid the woman's "nature" to help.

One last thing. In Ohio if you were to accidentally spray an On-duty or Off-Duty Law Enforcement Officer as they were attempting to show you ID that Officer can legally now shoot you as per our Force Continuum. Just FYI so be very careful before you do

mugwump
11-06-2007, 21:46
...Fox Labs is the nastiest, most powerful stuff I have seen.

http://www.foxlabs.net/Products.html

....TR

My daughter and all her friends got the Fox Labs key chain and a good, bright LED flashlight (60 lumen Cree using a single AA) when they went off to school. You have to keep the spray unit in hand or it does no good; bottom-of-your-purse carry is a non-starter. Get at least one extra of anything you order and practice with it. The key chain OC unit has a quirky 'stream' pattern...more like a squirt gun. Effective, but you have to know what to expect. In my experience you are better off getting a duplicate active vs. the inert practice unit -- the spray pattern is a bit different in the inert unit.

Expect to replace anything you get every 6 months; they lose pressure. If you get the key chain unit, replace the whole enchilada (holder plus insert), not just the spray insert. The weakest part of the setup is the plastic lip in the holder that acts as the "safety." In 3 months I've already replaced two because of broken "safeties." Gave one girl an excuse to get a new purse, as if she needed one.

No one's used one in anger yet, but my daughter's best friend was a hair away (U of Iowa). A male friend intervened with a palm heel strike before she had to.

Buy the tactical instructions pamphlet from those Fox Labs cheapskates. It's quite good (but should be free...it's a couple of photocopied pages).

Good luck and stay safe.

Edited to add: The girls were really happy when I handed these out and had a training session. I thought they'd think me paranoid, but the opposite was true. They all know at least one person who's had a horrible experience. It's a jungle out there.

Plutarch
11-07-2007, 05:11
Holly:

I am a former LEO and a certified OC Instructor. I have used OC in real life confrontations many times. For what its worth, here's my .02 -

Pepper Spray, or OC (oleoresin capsicum) is an excellent tool to add to your EDC.

It's main advantage is that while being very effective, it leaves no permanent injury. So if you feel threatened at all, don't hesitate to spray someone.

If you do have to spray someone, DO NOT apologize or try to give them water. Break contact with them, and get out of the area. Unless you have been assaulted or are the victim of a crime, I wouldn't bother calling the police.

The main things to consider with OC products are the Scoville Heat Units of the product ( SHU= % of OC in the product, basically how "hot" it is ) and the delivery system.

There are three main delivery systems -

1. Aerosol or Fog - Ok. Basically sprays like a can of hairspray. You have to be relatively close to the suspect, and you are likely to suffer overspray and have it blow onto you or others around you as well.

2. Foam - Worthless. Basically sprays like shaving cream. If there is any wind it will blow to the side, or just spray onto the suspects chest. Plus, they can simply wipe most of it off. Stay away from Foam.

3. Stream - Excellent. Basically shoots out like a high pressure water gun. Most are effective from several feet away. Just aim for the suspects eyes. The liquid stream will run down into every crevice on their face. Unlike aerosol or foam, you can aim it directly into their eyes, mouth, ears etc. ( As a bonus, when they shower, the OC liquid runs down their body to their nether regions. Yeah, I learned that the hard way ). Overspray is greatly reduced compared to aerosol.

Do not announce, "I'm going to spray now". Once you have decided to spray, just do it. Usually the person will be talking or have their mouth open. I usually aim that first shot into their mouth and then go for the eyes.

Check with your local LE agency for the specific laws on OC in your area. ( Better yet, read your states actual codebook. Some LEO's aren't in favor of civilians carrying OC unfortunately and will steer you wrong )

Hope this helps.

echoes
11-07-2007, 12:15
Thank you to everyone for the insight and tips.

Fox Labs is excellent, and very reasonably priced. Checked with our local LE, and it is legal to carry. Am purchasing the stream.

On a side note, yesterday, I asked the apt mgr what reason the FD gave for not locking the door, since it is not an outside access? She said she didn't know.

So I called the local FD here, and finally spoke to the Fire Marshall assigned to this part of the city. He said he knew nothing about that regulation at my complex, and would be out at some point today to investigate.

He has my info, and says he will call with what is what. Interesting, to say the least...:confused:

Holly

x-factor
11-07-2007, 13:13
My wife out of the blue asked me to buy her one of those extendable batons to carry, but I'm not sure its such a good idea and I don't want her to have a false sense of security.

She's only 5'1", untrained (only one semester of self defense and that was years ago in college), and not especially athletic. She's very threat conscious and she's not squeamish. I don't doubt she'd have the will and presence of mind to wack a guy, but I don't know if she'd be able to really employ the baton effectively.

Any advice would be appreciated. What size/brand baton? One she's got it are there any drills or techniques that would allow her to handle it better? If negative on the baton, would pepper spray be a better option?

The Reaper
11-07-2007, 13:27
My wife out of the blue asked me to buy her one of those extendable batons to carry, but I'm not sure its such a good idea and I don't want her to have a false sense of security.

She's only 5'1", untrained (only one semester of self defense and that was years ago in college), and not especially athletic. She's very threat conscious and she's not squeamish. I don't doubt she'd have the will and presence of mind to wack a guy, but I don't know if she'd be able to really employ the baton effectively.

Any advice would be appreciated. What size/brand baton? One she's got it are there any drills or techniques that would allow her to handle it better? If negative on the baton, would pepper spray be a better option?

The baton really requires training, quick access, and that you close with the threat to engage it. It is more of an agressive weapon, and is ranked up the force continuum from OC and TASERs.

The OC requires only minor training, can be hung from your keyring, and is a ranged weapon. Not much range, but more than a baton, and you can use it while running away.

My wife carries OC, and I have the ASP.

TR

x-factor
11-07-2007, 19:54
TR - Many thanks.

echoes
11-08-2007, 13:54
As an update...
The fire marshall called me late yesterday, and said he had done his inspection. He said he wanted the closets emptied and doors locked, b/c of the "combustables" in the closets. He siad he would be speaking to our managers today.

I'll even pay for the lock myself if need be. Ya-hoo! :lifter

Holly

DanUCSB
11-08-2007, 14:08
My wife carries OC, and I have the ASP.

TR

TR: If I may ask, why the ASP rather than OC for yourself? (Leaving the issue of concealed pistol carry outside the question for the moment.) Is it a matter of yourself being able to use the baton more discriminately than you could OC (being able to better control the level of force asserted, say, than you could with a spray), a convenience issue, a legal issue? Or simply preference?

I have been reading this thread with interest, but currently carry neither a baton nor OC. (Sadly, even my Spyderco gets me some odd looks down here in the Democratic Peoples' Republic of California.)

The Reaper
11-08-2007, 14:24
TR: If I may ask, why the ASP rather than OC for yourself?

It is because of the reasons you excluded.

I like to have many tools in the kitbag. I did not say that I did not have OC as well as a firearm.

LEOs have worked this to a fine art. While I am not bound directly to a Force Continuum policy, it may make it easier to defend in court, should I be obligated to use force to defend myself or my family. The reasonable man defense. I like to think that if I start with voice commands and work my way through, I may not have to take a life. Personally, there is nothing wrong with OCing the crap out of a thug who threatens you and running away, if you can do so. That is what I would recommend for most citizens. I think that were I a perp, I could sustain a few blows with an ASP by an untrained individual, particularly a small man or a female, close to hands-on distance quickly to take the weapon from them and finish the engagement. With the OC, after a half hour or so of choking and gagging, he is recovered with no permanent effect and you are safe and sound miles away. Should he be unaffected by the OC and continue to present a threat, I can go to hands or the impact weapon. If he initiates the contact with a lethal threat that requires the use of deadly force, I am prepared to take it there as well.

You have a lot more time to think it through and plan your actions (and your defensive tactics) now than you will then.

OC is simple, easy to employ effectively, inexpensive, convenient, works well against most threats, creates no permanent injury, and meets the needs of most untrained people better than the alternatives.

TR

DanUCSB
11-08-2007, 14:29
Thank you for the swift and thoughtful reply.

Dan

Razor
11-08-2007, 14:59
I have been reading this thread with interest, but currently carry neither a baton nor OC.

What are the penalties for carrying OC in your area? Do you feel there is a credible threat to your safety that could be at least partially mitigated by having the ability to escape (e.g. OC)? Are the penalties worse than the damage that the threat could inflict on you? We all have to make decisions, and then live with the results.

Plutarch
11-09-2007, 05:08
For an expandable baton, I would also recommend getting a leverage or end cap for the baton.

The cap will prevent the baton from slipping from your hand on the backswing. It will also prevent the baton from rolling away from you should you drop it.

Another use for the baton is to poke around in things you don't want to touch with your hands. The end cap can be used to hook things to pick them up, or move them aside.

End caps also make it easier to use your baton as an emergency hammer.

I personally don't carry an ASP brand baton. Having used both, I prefer the Monadnock baton, with their Hindi cap.

mugwump
11-09-2007, 08:29
As an update...
The fire marshall called me late yesterday, and said he had done his inspection. He said he wanted the closets emptied and doors locked, b/c of the "combustables" in the closets. He siad he would be speaking to our managers today.

I'll even pay for the lock myself if need be. Ya-hoo! :lifter

Holly

Good job, Holly. Most people wouldn't have noticed the problem, and if they did, wouldn't have done anyhing about it.

echoes
11-09-2007, 08:56
OC is simple, easy to employ effectively, inexpensive, convenient, works well against most threats, creates no permanent injury, and meets the needs of most untrained people better than the alternatives.
TR

mugwump, :o.

TR Sir, That defines my choice of OC instead of a handgun, for this situation.

Great information IMHO.

Holly

sg1987
11-15-2007, 09:36
Funny product application…

http://www.biggeekdaddy.com/humorpages/Misc/lawnmowerDUI.html

echoes
11-15-2007, 10:45
Funny product application…

http://www.biggeekdaddy.com/humorpages/Misc/lawnmowerDUI.html

Greetings sir.

I am unable to determine the significance of that link, to the thread? :munchin

Holly

sg1987
11-15-2007, 10:52
I simply saw that as a funny situation where spray was used. While not related to your question; I didn’t think it worthy of a new thread.

Gypsy
11-15-2007, 18:44
Funny product application…



"I've been drinking all day, hang on a second." LOL! Ahh, a little levity never hurts. :D

echoes
11-16-2007, 11:30
Update to add

Fire Marshall was nice enough to call yesterday, and tell me the outcome of his meeting with my apt complex. He told the Prop.mrg. they must clean out the closets, and that he would prefer them locked. They said they would comply with cleaning them out, but at this time will not be locking them.:rolleyes:

Since this started a couple weekes ago, realization has set in that the once safe home environment is not so anymore.
(Probobly some would say that I took this too seriously, and maybe they are correct.)

Never had to ask this type of question before on this site, but have been given a lot of information that will also be shared with the two ladies living upstairs in my unit.

Thanks,
Holly

echoes
12-06-2007, 16:41
Update:

Ordered my pepper spray from Foxlabs today per TR's advice: :lifter

http://www.foxlabs.com/foxlabs.shtml

Not only was it a pleasent experience, but I was not overcharged.

Even when they did not have the size of pratice spray I requested, they sold me a larger model, at the smaller model price.

Good company, and made in the USA.

HTH,
Holly

Firearmz
01-01-2008, 20:18
OC is an effective less lethal tool for EDC. It's labeling can be misleading though. Most reputable manufacturers label the cans as 2% or 10% OC, this only applies to the amount of OC per volume in the can not the actual amount of Capsaicinoids. For instance Fox Labs is 2% OC but in all actuality it is only .66% capsaicinoids where as Body Guard LE 10 is 10% and in actuality it is 1.25% capsaicinoids.

Shoefield Heating Units can be deceiving also, they are measured by a 5 member panel and taste test.

The following listed is by strongest and considered a Class III Spray:
Pure Capsaicin 10% 16,000,000/1,600,000 10%
American Defense (ADR) 10% 2,000,000/200,000 1.25%
BodyGuard (LE-10) 10% 2,000,000/200,000 1.25%
CQB (Level III) 10% 2,000,000/200,000 1.25%
Sabre Red 10% 2,000,000/200,000 1.25%

echoes
03-22-2008, 15:27
For instance Fox Labs is 2% OC but in all actuality it is only .66% capsaicinoids...

Greetings sir...My foxlabs canisters have provided many a nice night for me...and have not had to use any yet, to this day.:)

However, wanted to update the thread b/c my initial reason for aquiring OC was the inside closet doors in my apt. complex were kept unlocked.

As of this weekend, they are now newly refurbished with deadbolts on the outside, and the maintenence men carrying the keys. :lifter

Also, since our porchlights kept burning out, I asked the office if they would install those 2-year model guaranteed bulbs. After taking one in and showing the cost savings...they are switching them out!
Ya-hoo...no more coming home at night to a dark doorway and open closet!

Holly

Goggles Pizano
03-23-2008, 10:11
Holly,

Not sure if this had been discussed in this thread but you should be aware of two tactical issues regarding OC employment:

1) When the weather is below freezing the effectiveness of your OC is diminished. In fact the colder it gets the less effective it becomes-I have sprayed suspects in single digit weather conditions and it has had no effect until they were transported to a heated environment.

2) I see you bought the stream and that is good! Fog is horrible. I have rolled through an OC cloud fighting a suspect more times than I care to mention. Just be aware that when you deploy OC it does not discriminate between sprayer and sprayee! ;)

longrange1947
03-23-2008, 13:45
My wife out of the blue asked me to buy her one of those extendable batons to carry, but I'm not sure its such a good idea and I don't want her to have a false sense of security.

She's only 5'1", untrained (only one semester of self defense and that was years ago in college), and not especially athletic. She's very threat conscious and she's not squeamish. I don't doubt she'd have the will and presence of mind to wack a guy, but I don't know if she'd be able to really employ the baton effectively.

Any advice would be appreciated. What size/brand baton? One she's got it are there any drills or techniques that would allow her to handle it better? If negative on the baton, would pepper spray be a better option?

This is, as TR stated, a bad idea. The baton becomes a deadly weapon once the weapon is used incorrectly. If you strike the head then you have created a bad situation. You are not supposed to strike joints, only long bones, ie upper arms, lower arms with caution, thighs, lower legs. As you can see, you are really close to the assailant when this occurs.

Echos, if you ever get Mace, for whatever reason, remember it is not fired into the face but onto the chest so the vapors hit his face. :D

echoes
03-23-2008, 17:53
Holly,

Not sure if this had been discussed in this thread but you should be aware of two tactical issues regarding OC employment:

1) When the weather is below freezing the effectiveness of your OC is diminished. In fact the colder it gets the less effective it becomes-I have sprayed suspects in single digit weather conditions and it has had no effect until they were transported to a heated environment.

2) I see you bought the stream and that is good! Fog is horrible. I have rolled through an OC cloud fighting a suspect more times than I care to mention. Just be aware that when you deploy OC it does not discriminate between sprayer and sprayee! ;)

GP, Thank you for the information. It is good to know about the OC.

longrange...Thank You for the "head's up!" :D

Holly