View Full Version : A shortened SFAS?
gun_bunny
10-31-2007, 21:49
Here is part of an email that the SF recruiter I have been working with sent me. Is this unprecedented? What do the QPs think of this? And does this actually mean that the last SFAS class can rightgully say they went to the last hard cycle?
SFAS changes to include 14 day selection course
The Special Forces Command is proposing a change to SFAS which will have Soldiers going to Fort Bragg for a 14 day period for selection instead of 24 days. This will start with a test class in November of this year.
There are many other changes which are taking place in the Special Forces Command. As with the rest of the Army Special Forces are also going through a transformation period.
The Reaper
11-01-2007, 05:02
Do you mind filling out your profile?
TR
It does NOT matter how long the course is or what changes are made...YOU'RE STILL GOING TO: HAVE TO COMPLETE IT!:cool:
Take one day at a time...prepare for it and FIDO!
Stay safe.
LongWire
11-01-2007, 16:49
I concur with Guy........In my mind I picture a Steeper Ramp up Curve, meaning you would really need to be wired tight..........Thats just me though.
An old TAC told me one time " If you want something bad enough you'll stand on your head and shoot marbles for a week."
Don't think too hard on stuff you have no control over - just get ready and "DO IT".
Bob to the deep end of the pool.
Warrior-Mentor
11-01-2007, 19:54
Interestin...saw a similiar e-mail today. Won't be SF Command making the decision...it will be SWCS. Would like to see the POI.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
11-02-2007, 04:58
And does this actually mean that the last SFAS class can rightgully say they went to the last hard cycle?.
The longest minute in your life on a wrestling mat is not lasting the last 60 seconds of the ninth minute but the last ten seconds when someone is working to pin you during the first minute or the last. Your goal is to be prepared to go the full nine minutes and not hope that they have cut it to six, especially if you are one of those folks that have done the minimum to just meet the standard. Most of us have all heard about, or have been in, the last hard class:D and for some reason each succeeding class was the next last, last hard class. Don't worry, whatever the length, the cadre will know whether or not you have what it takes to go to the next step of trying to become a Special Forces Soldier. If, as some might fear, they have cut it to ramp up the numbers that they can put into the pipeline and some work their way into the system that should not be there, the real awakening will be on your first team. When you hear about Team Sergeants taking someone under their wing to bring them up to speed, they are not talking about some kindly gentleman placing his arm around your shoulder they are talking about someone putting you into a full nelson until your neck gets stong enough to carry your weight or it snaps.
Interestin...saw a similiar e-mail today. Won't be SF Command making the decision...it will be SWCS. Would like to see the POI.
The change came from SWC and it is indeed 14 days. I've seen the POI and I was "Tasked" from the top to go and observe the class and provide input back to the command.
NOTE: If you are a prospective candidate preparing to attend this class, the same mindset must apply. DON'T QUIT :lifter. SFAS has never been an easy task and it has adapted and changed over the years (just like many things do) but the one consistent part is that you can't be selected if you aren't standing at the end.
Consider this when you're deep into the suck and you feel sorry for yourself...
The worst day in SF is better then ANY day in the Regular Army. Remember what Cpt Miller said to Private Ryan at the end of the movie Saving Private Ryan, "Earn this", and if you do, you will have the chance to join the only fraternity where EVERY single "Brother" of yours will never leave your side no matter what!
Something to consider...
I was in England a few months ago and there were some 18C who were 18X's. They were in the fist couple classes of the 18X program. They told me that their SFAS class was two weeks and it was some sort of pilot class. They did say it was a ball buster. Us "older " guys laughed and said "it must have sucked to be you"!!!!
I was in England a few months ago and there were some 18C who were 18X's. They were in the fist couple classes of the 18X program. They told me that their SFAS class was two weeks and it was some sort of pilot class. They did say it was a ball buster. Us "older " guys laughed and said "it must have sucked to be you"!!!!
The 2 week class begins Nov 28th.
So, is the Nov. 28th class just a "test class" or is this an actual fully implemented change to SFAS for the foreseeable future? I think it's very interesting and would agree with Guy and Longwire, just because it's shorter doesn't mean it will be any easier. As a matter of fact, it could be just the opposite.
The Reaper
11-18-2007, 09:27
I see no way to pack in the testing, stress events, land nav classes, STAR, team events, and situationals into 14 days, even if you were training 24 hours per day. And each of those events have been tried and tested, before being deemed necessary to select and assess our future students. If you are not going to be permitted to attrit students during the SFQC because they have already been selected as trainable, the ability to get a good snapshot of the candidates in order to make good selections is critical.
This does not strike me as a particularly good thing. Do you see SMUs shortening or changing their selection courses?
TR
Team Sergeant
11-18-2007, 10:03
This does not strike me as a particularly good thing. Do you see SMUs shortening or changing their selection courses?
TR
Not everyone has the never ending check book. ;)
Jack Moroney (RIP)
11-18-2007, 12:22
I see no way to pack in the testing, stress events, land nav classes, STAR, team events, and situationals into 14 days, even if you were training 24 hours per day. And each of those events have been tried and tested, before being deemed necessary to select and assess our future students. If you are not going to be permitted to attrit students during the SFQC because they have already been selected as trainable, the ability to get a good snapshot of the candidates in order to make good selections is critical.
This does not strike me as a particularly good thing. Do you see SMUs shortening or changing their selection courses?
TR
I agree.
Scimitar
11-18-2007, 12:43
In as much as any word of mouth can be trusted....
I just finished speaking with a buddy who got Med Drop (ITB Syndrome) from the Oct SFAS and will be hitting the Nov class once healed.
He has been told (not sure who by) that they are taking out Land Nav!
I thought it may have been taking down the in-processing and then shaving a day or two off each element.
He also advised that they are considering shortening SOPC-1 to 14 days as well.
For what its worth that’s the word on the street.
Scimitar
I'll say this about Land Nav.
It is the first time for a lot of people that everything is on "YOU". A person knows the basics but after that "YOU" have to apply it.
You start to fall behind, miss a point, can you regroup or do you panic and start running through the woods hoping to find something? Do you get rattled, loose gear, drop things, where's your map? Try to make up time, run the roads? Take the short cut where all the blue and brown lines come together?
Yeah, Land Nav can be a life changing experience for some.:D
I liked it because you were on your own, all night, just a walk in the woods.
In as much as any word of mouth can be trusted....
I just finished speaking with a buddy who got Med Drop (ITB Syndrome) from the Oct SFAS and will be hitting the Nov class once healed.
He has been told (not sure who by) that they are taking out Land Nav!
I thought it may have been taking down the in-processing and then shaving a day or two off each element.
He also advised that they are considering shortening SOPC-1 to 14 days as well.
For what its worth that’s the word on the street.
Scimitar
Ignore the rumors, especially from anyone who was dropped from SFAS. They are the last people I would place a bet with. The course will not be a gimme by any stretch of the imagination but it hasn't been done yet so once again, for those preparing to go, DON'T QUIT.
Another 18x
11-18-2007, 18:40
Daver,
As I am overwhelmed with curiosity, I must ask the same question SF VOL did. Is this a "test class", or is this a fully implemented new policy by SWC?
Thanks for your time.
Respectfully,
-PFC Lakin
Daver,
As I am overwhelmed with curiosity, I must ask the same question SF VOL did. Is this a "test class", or is this a fully implemented new policy by SWC?
Thanks for your time.
Respectfully,
-PFC Lakin
It's SFAS...it's always a "Test"...the question is, will you pass? PFC, worry about YOU and what YOU are going to do and not any SWC policies. Be overwhelmed with the desire to not quit and the rest will take care of itself. You have much more to do than sit around and be curious.
Another 18x
11-18-2007, 22:22
It's SFAS...it's always a "Test"...the question is, will you pass? PFC, worry about YOU and what YOU are going to do and not any SWC policies. Be overwhelmed with the desire to not quit and the rest will take care of itself. You have much more to do than sit around and be curious.
Roger that. Wilco.
And as far as my desire goes, I am never satisfied with my training. Satisfaction is the death of desire, sir.
Thank you for your response. Pardon me if my curiosity was out of line.
Respectfully,
-PFC Lakin
gottaTRI
11-19-2007, 16:05
I would hate to be a "perpetuater" of SFAS rumors, however, some SWC cadre are under the impression that the 14-day process will be going on for the next several classes or so. I have no clue and wouldn't speculate on a public forum regarding what changes will be made, but hopefully its an improvement.
As far as the star is concerned, I was surprised how many people took naps for hours and just gave up after 2-3 points. Find that 4th point, its more than do-able and it pays major dividends in the end.
Novice Snowflake
11-19-2007, 18:10
I would not be concerned with how short or long the instructional course is because it would be more important to pay attention and be in top physical condition, very mentally tough and be able to receive and do the instructions as told by your drill sergeants.
The military course will take care of itself. You just go through the training and succeed at each block of instructional training that you receive.
I would leave the quality of the training to the drill sergeants because I am sure they do study those kind of things and are making the changes that reflect the realities of wartime combat.
If you feel you are not getting enough instructional training then I would think it would be good to talk to the drill sergeant at the appropriate time, in his office. Not on the field.
If you still think you are not getting the training you think you need then you are going to have to wait until you graduate from the course then seek out additional books or videos on a wide range of topics, like fire craft, survival or hand to hand combat ( I like FSA combatives the best ) and different topics related to your M.O.S. You have to seek out the additional resources to complete your training.
Due to the current political correctness prevalent today, your best bet would be to study diligently the old school methods as well as the new school methods and talk to another combat veterans once you graduate and are one of the Quiet Professionals. I would also think that even if a Quiet Professional who has not seen any combat but has experience in another areas of military training also has alots to offer too.
If I am wrong in any of these things then please correct me.
I also do want to emphasize that I am not in the Army yet, let alone being a Quiet Professional but I have observed all those things on the History Channel and The Discovery Channel about the Green Berets ( The Quiet Professionals ) and picked up alots of good information both verbally and non-verbally from the tough military courses that they were going through at each block of instructional training in the real life documentaries that were shown on television.
I...instructions as told by your drill sergeants....I also do want to emphasize that I am not in the Army yet, let alone being a Quiet Professional but I have observed all those things on the History Channel and The Discovery Channel about the Green Berets ( The Quiet Professionals ) and picked up alots of good information both verbally and non-verbally from the tough military courses that they were going through at each block of instructional training in the real life documentaries that were shown on television.
Grasshopper;
You may want to hold back posting on threads similar to this.
Pete
The Reaper
11-19-2007, 19:37
If I am wrong in any of these things then please correct me.
I also do want to emphasize that I am not in the Army yet, let alone being a Quiet Professional but I have observed all those things on the History Channel and The Discovery Channel about the Green Berets ( The Quiet Professionals ) and picked up alots of good information both verbally and non-verbally from the tough military courses that they were going through at each block of instructional training in the real life documentaries that were shown on television.
Step 1: If you are not in SF, have not completed the SFQC, or SFAS, or Basic Airborne, or AIT, or OSUT, or Basic, stop giving advice. It is without any value.
Step 2: If you have not attended SFAS, stop trying to offer your opinion about the training, as it has no merit.
Step 3: Stop posting on topics or providing input where you have no experience. Television does not count as reality.
Got it?
TR
allester666
11-20-2007, 12:09
I certainly hope that Land Nav is NOT omitted, I have also always enjoyed a personnal challenge. Without violating OPSEC, I will let you know what the 14 day class is like when I get back. Leaving in 5 days for the 27 Nov 07 - 11 Dec 07 class.
I certainly hope that Land Nav is NOT omitted, I have also always enjoyed a personnal challenge. Without violating OPSEC, I will let you know what the 14 day class is like when I get back. Leaving in 5 days for the 27 Nov 07 - 11 Dec 07 class.
That 666 ending is a little strange! IF you make it through the class don't assume that your experience will enlighten you to any OPSEC. IF you are selected, you won't have any clue why you made it...you won't care. IF you aren't selected, you still won't know exactly why either. IF you quit, you'll have your answer. We make sure that the OPSEC you speak of isn't ever revealed so DON'T WORRY about violating anything because you can't.
Do The Best You Can.
14 days SFAS!!!????!! Don't like this Idea at all.
TR said it best, can't be any better if its shorten.
The why factor is driving this. Numbers with the new Bn and all of these 18Xs that came in back in 2002 and 2003 are getting out is why. So we need to keep the numbers up, so how do we do this.
My .02 here. Don't shorten the days for the begin of the SFQC. Maybe look at reenlistment bonuses for first term SF SMs.
The best thing to do is Tm Sgts to stop sending these new 18Xs to schools like SOTIC, SFARTEC, 18F, BA, all of these high dollar jobs on the outside with three or four letter acronyms. They would more likely stay in because of it. When they are young and can make 150,00 plus a year, they leave. Send 18Xs to JM and Ranger school, MOS training; thats were they need to be sent. If you don't have a body on the ODA, don't send an 18X. Only send one it if and when he reenlists.
Look I know some will get out. When I instructed I saw many that came in for the cause and to be apart of something. Great for them. They gave up a six figure pay check to do that. Others are using SF as a stepping plate to go to a three Organization to work for.
I'm in the 18F course right now with three 18Xs I put through the SFQC. Two out of the three are talking about getting out. One for sure. Just because they have all of these nice three or four letter acronyms courses that will make them a ton of money. I asked them would you stay in if you didn't have the training? YES was the answer with follow ups.
SWC could go back and look at all of these 18X getting out; they would see how much money in spent on these guys and now they are working for NEK, TC or BW not directly for US Army.
No need to shorten SFAS, they are other ways to keep the numbers up.
Sorry for the rant.
VG
Another 18x
01-03-2008, 19:44
Any new news on the shortened SFAS via grads or QP's?
The Reaper
01-03-2008, 19:51
Any new news on the shortened SFAS via grads or QP's?
Why?
TR
Any new news on the shortened SFAS via grads or QP's?
Yup--it will be one of the hardest things you've ever done in your life, very much like the older, longer course. You may want to consider getting your mind right, train harder and stop worrying about things outside of your sphere of control.
gun_bunny
01-04-2008, 22:23
Irregardless of 14 or 24 days I am leaving the 14th for SFAS. I have been following the training guidelines to prepare for selection. The recruiter asked me when I picked up my orders and asked if I was ready. I almost wanted to laugh, because I don't think it's really possible to be "ready" after talking to tabbed guys. No matter who you are, you're going to get broken off. It's not really effort until the effort starts to hurt right? I am prepared for the suck as much as I think someone who has never experienced the delight of SFAS can be.
My point in this thread was not really to debate if it was easier, which I truly doubt they are going to lower the standards. I actually wanted to see what the QPs thought of it. I think some recruiters probably got people to jump the gun with their mass emailing about a shortened SFAS. I refused to go at the promise of the only possible chance at a shorter class. I wanted to feel ready for the hardest thing I have ever attempted in my life, even at the "cost" of 24 days.
Now it is time for the real gut check, to truly see and experience what I am made of.
bricklayer
01-04-2008, 23:01
I am not by any means a genius, but when a course of any sort has been downsized or cut in half, ecspecially the SFAS course you damn well know that the QP's who had there say in it was not thinking let's make it Easier! Having not been through SFAS, I would think that this is a wake up call to learn how to pack 50 pounds of shit into a 10 pound bag and make it fit accordingly.
Edited to add: It makes perfect sense to shorten a program or a carriculum if you have found the proper tools or machinery to produce the same quality of product in a shorter amount of time, wich is good for business, and In this case it is to Free The Opressed! Wich would be years of trial and error to produce the perfect SF soldier.
Another 18x
01-11-2008, 03:57
Why?
TR
Merely gathering intel, TR.
Granted, knowledge isn't power, but it sure as hell isn't weakness.
Respectfully,
-Lakin.
The Reaper
01-11-2008, 06:24
Merely gathering intel, TR.
Granted, knowledge isn't power, but it sure as hell isn't weakness.
Respectfully,
-Lakin.
Here is some intel for you.
Prepare as you have been instructed.
Do what you are told, when you are told, to the best of your ability.
Let the consequences follow.
Stop trying to get an unfair advantage by G2ing the course.
Either you are ready and committed to success, or you are not.
Best of luck.
TR
Another 18x
01-13-2008, 17:45
Here is some intel for you.
Prepare as you have been instructed.
Do what you are told, when you are told, to the best of your ability.
Let the consequences follow.
Stop trying to get an unfair advantage by G2ing the course.
Either you are ready and committed to success, or you are not.
Best of luck.
TR
Roger. Out.
The_Future
01-16-2008, 17:57
That 666 ending is a little strange! IF you make it through the class don't assume that your experience will enlighten you to any OPSEC. IF you are selected, you won't have any clue why you made it...you won't care. IF you aren't selected, you still won't know exactly why either. IF you quit, you'll have your answer. We make sure that the OPSEC you speak of isn't ever revealed so DON'T WORRY about violating anything because you can't.
Do The Best You Can.
My original post was deleted with some other members post last month. I went through the first 14 day SFAS class (NOV 28-DEC 11). Daver's post was center mass.....I was never told why I was selected and he is right, I don't care. I don't know what was different about the 24 day course in comparison to te 14 day course because I never went through the 24 day course. Bottom line, it was the hardest thing physically I have had to do thus far in my military career. I was like alot of the NQP'S on this board when I became an asset. I was more interested in the peas and potatoes than the meat. I was brash and eager to prove my potential worth on this board and G-2 my way to the tab (AINT GONNA HAPPEN) instead of using the board to learn how to prepare myself mentally and physically for SFAS, SFQC, and life on a team. Learn from the board and earn the tab then prove your worth down range. Stop worrying about things that dont matter, (ie) if they took land nav out or is it easier or harder than the old course. They could make SELECTION 100 days or 1 day....does not matter.... if your ready your ready and if your not your not...GOOD LUCK
I just returned from the 2nd 14 day SFAS and I can vouch, it was the most difficult thing Ive ever done in my life. I wont go into details obviously but the only difference is there is LESS down time in between events. A lot more people getting broken off.
Team Sergeant
01-30-2008, 09:27
I just returned from the 2nd 14 day SFAS and I can vouch, it was the most difficult thing Ive ever done in my life. I wont go into details obviously but the only difference is there is LESS down time in between events. A lot more people getting broken off.
It's meant to separate the men from the boys.;) Well done.
Take heart, soon those "most difficult" 14 days will pale in comparison to what lies ahead.
Team Sergeant
Any new news on the shortened SFAS via grads or QP's?
Yea its shorter and Phase II just got longer have a nice day.