View Full Version : Two Years and All I got was a Lousy Tab
BMT (RIP)
10-28-2007, 04:22
From mil.com. :D
Posted Fri 26 October 2007 01:26 PM
As a recent graduate of the SF Q course, and being an 18X a lot of things have been running through my head about how the past two years of my life has went and how it could have been used some of the time, to accomplish more important tasks, critical tasks that we XRAYS aren't aware that the rest of the Army does. Maybe it is because the leaders don't realize, or even care that we get the training, or just don’t know how to approach the problem but from my knowledge that can’t be too astray, 18X's don’t know jack about how the regular army is run, common military courtesies and the base culture of the army, and things like REAL unit rank structure and relationships between officer and enlisted (I have a first name basis with many captains from my courses and never really see day to day interaction with E's and O's)
The Q course lacks skills and knowledge that is relevant to the time at hand.
The Q course now pretty much in a nutshell is changing, however the base of knowledge put out is still the same as it were 10 years ago. Teach basic patrolling, be a man among men, be a leader, and LEARN A LANGUAGE. I will tell you that a specialist does not get any leadership experience unless you demand it, which will piss many people off in the process. However, the weathered E-7 gets all of the leadership, and all of the burden. He has the basic troop leadership behind him, why should it fall on him? Is the lonely E-4 not capable of handling the same responsibilities. He should be, right?
Notice the capitalization. Being bi-lingual has been the keystone of SF, train indigenous forces. Though everyone’s combat mission in Iraq and Afghanistan is similar in nature, using translators because of all the dialects in the countries is the accepted way of communicating.
The biggest problem I have in all of the training has been language. Patrolling sucks, but you find purpose in it. You know that you’re gaining knowledge of your strength, weakness, and that of others. Teaching those skills however, is never focused on (when working in Sage it was hard to convert those skills into common sense, I didn’t understand why the g's couldn’t comprehend a mission)
The problems with Language
-native speakers of Spanish have a hard time with the test
-DLPT 5 in Arabic, French, and Spanish is way too hard for a 3 month, and 4 month course
-there is no way to take a 18 month DLI course and crunch it down to a 2 week block, another 2 week block, and a 3 month block spread out throughout a year. It cannot be done, stop doing it.
-no one will pass the DLPT5 in Arabic in the year 2008 until changes are made to the program
-years ago the language proficiency was O+/0+/0+ which is a very weak understanding of the DLPT. That is getting about 25/65 questions right on the test. It used to be a 20 week course.
-now the standard is raised to 1/1 with a 16 week program, that has seen no change in the way they go about teaching the language, do the math, no amount of studying can immerse you to a understanding to pass it
-there is open conversation of the SOLT testing. Teachers openly told us the answers, and we cheated with another to pass. Now I have a friend that had his language changed to French from Arabic because he failed a SOLT test
-my language was Arabic. I took the Arabic DLPT and passed with a 1/1. My friend failed with a 0+/1 and had to retrain and missed his sage class by 2 months
-I had to relearn the Arabic alphabet in depth 3 times because of the length in between training, won’t even go to the lost vocabulary
-here’s the kicker. I blind shot GUESSED on 40/65 questions on the language test. I don’t know how I passed, and I can tell you that all of us who took the test had informed guesses on 80% of the test. I do not know Arabic despite studying 4 hours a night for 3 months straight
-there’s no way you can tell me that you are successfully training SF operators to speak Arabic with the program at hand
PROBLEMS WITH THE Q COURSE
If you want us to be rangers, just send us to the school
If you want us to be linguists, send us to DLI
I know every military program and unit is not perfect. But for a program that is so highly boasted throughout the world training the future SF warrior, I feel cheated, and I hope my training will be enough for the challenges ahead.
The horse and pony show at SWC is disgusting. Nothing is changed in the programs because the leadership isn't aware of it. The burden on the lower leadership would be too much if the truth came out of what was really going on in some of the programs.
I went to the range a combined 2 weeks in 2 years. I Only qualified once on a paper target. Only put around 500 rounds downrange.
I never once drove a humvee or shot a .50 cal. I only learned how to turn one on when I was walking down Ardennes.
This is what you want your future warrior to know?
That’s only a start to the lack of soldier skills we are allotted time to be current on.
Robin sage is so canned anymore that the training value is almost zilch. Just because two students were shot doesn't mean you have to take the risk assessment equal to a dry fire battle drill, and G's that come out of character after the first day
The reaction to this might be "you’ll learn these things when you get to your team"
Well you know what? I am sick of hearing that. In basic training I heard the same thing "you’ll learn that once you get to your unit" Well guess what, I am here, and there’s a plethora of things that I don’t know, wish I would of known then, or even had the resources to achieve the mission.
These things combined is why the Q course is a waste of 2 years, and the 18xray program is a JOKE
Currently, a few of my friends are being threatened to have their languages changed. They are in the first part of BLITZ and the class ahead of them had their failures of language REMOVED FROM THE COURSE COMPLETELY! GOODBYE! This is most likely due to SWC meeting their numbers for the fiscal year. You failed your language. See you next year, it’s too bad you MOS qualified and will forget most of the skills you learned. It’s too bad you couldn’t learn Russian and Arabic in 4 months. What a joke.
It’s a sad truth but I would have done just as well at group if I went from basic training to 10th group.
Gripes and complaints they might be, but this is an annoyance of a lot of 18X not being prepared, and a lot of prior enlisted ideas about the course, not just mine.
I thought I would put them out there so maybe you older cats can see how things are now, those coming to the course can be aware of, and maybe things will change a bit.
I am greatful for the fact that the Q course isn't what it used to be, however.
P.S. The title to this thread is a joke.
This message
It's Dog and Pony show not Horse and Pony.
Edited to add: I see a number of places where self motivation, after hours study and weekend practice could have helped the young lad.
In two years he never figured out it was only the begining and not the "end all"? The course is the course, now the real learning begins. Does a truck driver in the Army for a few years have that much over a sharp 18X? No.
Ret10Echo
10-28-2007, 06:23
It's Dog and Pony show not Horse and Pony.
Unless it's an equine event...:D
Heck, after 21 years in service I didn't know everything. Even if I thought I had learned everything (because sometimes there are those who think that), I would probably have been a realy ass to be around.
Seems like there might be this misconception that the learning stops once the hat gets planted on your head....
Life can be a pretty lengthy course.
tom kelly
10-28-2007, 06:38
1.STOP COMPLAINING,you sound like a little girl whining.
2.GET TO WORK.Study harder and longer,concentrate on the subject of
learning the language,get help from the instructors.Spend more time in the language lab.NEVER QUIT......If you don't like the current SF training work to change it,write a memo with positive suggestions for reshaping the SF training.READ THE SPECIAL FORCES CREED...NOW READ IT AGAIN...If that
is not you than you are in the wrong place...move out and get on with your life....Just my 02,Regards,tom kelly
BMT (RIP)
10-28-2007, 06:45
Ok guys! How long do you think this boy will last on a team?
:munchin
BMT
Ok guys! How long do you think this boy will last on a team?
:munchin
BMT
I just have this vision of him coming into the SGM's office, plopping down in a chair, putting his feet up on the SGM's desk and "Hi, Pete, I ain't too smart but I want a spot on your best High Speed, Low Drag Team."
I think his education will begin to pick up speed real quick.
Pete
Ret10Echo
10-28-2007, 06:58
I just have this vision of him coming into the SGM's office, plopping down in a chair, putting his feet up on the SGM's desk and "Hi, Pete, I ain't too smart but I want a spot on your best High Speed, Low Drag Team."
I think his education will begin to pick up speed real quick.
Pete
Speed like terminal velocity?
NousDefionsDoc
10-28-2007, 07:23
Amazing. Two years and he doesn't get it at all.
Someone with more computer skills than me, should try and find out this fine soldier's name. It would be good to keep track on his career, in or out of SF.:D
The Reaper
10-28-2007, 09:13
A fine example of Generation Why/Whine.
He could have had ten years in training and still not have learned everything, or been happy.
Some of the points bear consideration, but it occurs to me that the best thing for him would be to reclass as an 11B and go to the 82nd, where he can see how the Army really works. I am sure that he and his NCOs and officers will get along really well.:rolleyes:
TR
Snaquebite
10-28-2007, 10:22
No Drive, No REAL Desire, No Individual Effort, No.....No.....No.... Where's my spoon? I need you to feed me.....= NO GO.
LongWire
10-28-2007, 10:33
You have a link to this?
BMT (RIP)
10-28-2007, 10:44
http://forums.military.com/1/OpenTopic
Army Forum and then under SF Forum.
Snaquebite
10-28-2007, 10:45
Google got this
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5051924461/m/9370047251001
Also got this from his profile.
TheLengendaryFailure
Jake A Kesran
Bio
Not available
Conflicts & Operations
A few good replies so far. I like the 60 year old college student's reply.
You know something what a strange thread started here, A person goes thru S.F. training and complains. Claims he has the tab, but won't show it on his profile. Hmmmmmmm..
Maybe if he is so dissatified with the S.F. he should give the tab back.
I don't recall any training making one a expert coming out of the box of training, but rather the basic knowledge of what needs to be done.
You take that, mix it with experience and wal-la, you might have a expert..notice I said "Might" that is left up to person wheter to apply his experience with what he was taught at school.
I'm back in college (age 60) and I can say the same thing about that education also.
But as time and "Experience" has taught me, its just a stepping stone, its the path to success, the rest is up to me wheter to make it a success or failure.
Don't find him listed in AKO
What a screen name?
Recent grad of the Q and his profile lists him as a SSG? OK you young stud muffin 18Xs, what is the fastest you're making E-6 these days?
Liked the bit about - he would be an 18A if only.
3SoldierDad
10-28-2007, 11:51
The most discouraging aspect to this guy and his post is that he didn't get weeded out to begin with.
For all his learning this guy didn't seem to get one once of wisdom - He sounds like a fool. It's a bummer to even think about a man like this wearing the SF tab. From what I observe, the Q is only one piece of the puzzle - the first piece - the first step in a long journey. The "whine generation" often, it seems to me, wants to skip experience and get handed the Prize. A Prize that can only come with years in the field with a team. I've been on this board regularly for months and I haven't read about any short-cuts.
As a former language teacher with an MA in Linguistics, let me say - Classroom settings for language are NEVER ideal - NEVER, NEVER, NEVER - this is not the Q's problem. It is simply an educational reality. What would this guy suggest - Go on deployment to the Box with NO EXPOSURE to Arabic? Or, to spend two years isolated in a language school? Give me a break... Both those options would be worse. So, folks prepare the best way they can - sitting their butt down and learning from books, tapes, videos, and instructors for a finite period = PREPPING to go to the field. Not perfect, but as good as it gets in this imperfect world.
In addition to be being a naive cry baby - this dude strikes me as an immature ingrate and is walking around with a big chip on his soldier (that hopefully someone will knock off).
Finally, IMO, this guy's whole memo smells fishy to me.
Three Soldier Dad....Chuck
.
LongWire
10-28-2007, 12:10
Shot Over...........
Scimitar
10-28-2007, 12:11
Recent grad of the Q and his profile lists him as a SSG? OK you young stud muffin 18Xs, what is the fastest you're making E-6 these days?
My understanding is you hit
E4 = 9-12
E5 around = 18 – 24 (still in Q)
But you hit your team as an E5 and get the E6 about 6-12 months in
I think you’re lucky to hit E7 until after you’ve been in a team for at least 4 years (guess)
I'm not a BTDT and I am far from perfect and still learning SF ways, but I would expect some guy who has made it thru the Q course to have far better SA then to bitch on a public forum.
Some of the stuff he discusses about Language doesn’t add up with the information I have.
His Rank seems a bit off and he’s lost all his Language skills between blocks, give me a break talk to your mate who is also learning Arabic, there everywhere. Sesh!
Sounds like a poser who didn't make it to me, and wants to tell the world about how it wasn't his fault.
out
out
Surgicalcric
10-28-2007, 13:19
...I am not a BTDT...
...he’s lost all his Language skills between blocks, give me a break talk to your mate who is also learning Arabic, there everywhere...
Scimitar:
When your time after class, between language blocks, is spent studying surgery and anesthesia or prepping and cleaning til 2am when you have to be in class again at 6, or you are studying radio wave propagation and antenna theory, or a myriad of other things covered during the MOS portion(s) of the SFQC you can feel free to comment on how you are sustaining proficiency in your target language between blocks 1 & 2 and 2 & Blitz. Its easy to arm chair quarterback the guy when you are still sitting on a bean bag. ;) I will be anxious to see if you feel the same after not formally studying language for 40 weeks during the Delta course.
Crip
Sounds like a bitter poser to me.
No listing in AKO, wrong timeframe for rank given that he's an 18X just out of the Q.
Not consistent from the young men that I see coming to my unit every few months. Most are the quiet, reserved, and well mannered soldier that we expect to see. The kind that is eyes and ears open, mouth welded shut.
My humble $.02
SSG B
Jack Moroney (RIP)
10-28-2007, 13:37
Having been around longer than some and having been involved in the Q course over a period of decades both directly and working with the outcome, I have heard every bitch, moan, snivel, grip, whine, better idea, good idea, lousy idea, terrible idea, if only this, and what about that, und so weiter. BUT the end result is that the troop that comes through that experience always, for the most part, has been able to exceed expectations and change worlds. So what exactly is the problem:rolleyes: I have read EOC critques, changed programs when it made sense and made MFRs for future implementation when resources became available, and laughed my ass off at folks who fell into the "if wishes were horses then beggars would ride" category. There are very few perfect situations where you can match resources with requirements and have to do what you can with what you have and get on with it. Just my 2 cents.
FearMonkey
10-28-2007, 13:40
Oh boo frickin' hoo. Guess what, when I put my Green Beret on all I could do was slap the dashboard of a Humvee like a monkey, and the only place I'd ever seen a .50 cal was in the movies. But you know what... I'm leaving for an advanced Humvee driving course in a couple weeks, and I can set head space and timing like a champ. Guess who's going to be riding shotgun on the Ma' Deuce in Iraq? I know when it's appropriate to use proper military courtesy and when things can be more relaxed. I've put more boatloads of rounds downrange learning transition drills, shooting and moving drills, and CQB training in the past couple months than in my entire time in the Army. Furthermore, we've got SFAUC coming up. I've already been to language refresher where I got a chance to dust the cobwebs off my Russian, and I've learned more about practical application of commo in the past 6 months than I ever did in the course.
And to top it all off... I'm just on the B-Team. So stop besmirching the reputation of my generation with your child-like incessant whining and go seek that knowledge and experience you want so badly. You earned that damned Green Beret... NOW ACT LIKE ONE!!
Scimitar
10-28-2007, 14:40
Roger that Cric,
Back in my whole
out
The person did say that he's never been in the "big Army" so he wouldn't know that it's the same way in the 'big Army' when you're going through your MOS school. I never even sat in a humvee until I made it to my first unit. Heck, my first time firing a M2 was during the invasion of Iraq.
Like someone said, he's probably a poser, or someone who just wants to whine and the only reason we're reading about it is because it continues the "they don't get the training/equipment they need" mantra....
I WISH I had half the training someone in the Q had let alone the myrad of training you QPs receive after being put on a team. If he is really in the Q, then I hope someone finds out a name and he's "trained" properly :lifter
The Reaper
10-28-2007, 14:50
Given the lack of an AKO account, he has either used a pseudonym, or is not a soldier.
TR
If you young lads and other posters will notice the first page was all guys who had been through the Q Course, the second page is starting to get some that ain't started yet and some that never will.
For those that ain't yet and them that never will be, why don't we reserve the comments.
Fear Monkey, Crip you guys are fairly new out of the course so I'll let you do the heavy lifting now :lifter.
Pete
Never piss off the B Team, most of the people who work there can have big impacts on your future:D
HeavyDrop
10-28-2007, 15:12
I was a signal guy and now I am an 18E. I thought I knew some stuff about comms. In just under a year on a team I have learned so much I have had to start forgetting other stuff to make room for it. Coming out of the course I was anxious about the things I didn't know. But I found out real quick that the people who have the most trouble are the people who think they ALREADY KNOW IT ALL when they show up. Your team (if you ever get to one) knows that you don't know certain things. They will not allow you to fail.
If after reading all of these responses you still feel this way please download the following form and turn it in to the appropriate authorities. We keep a handy supply of these in the team room just for people like you.
http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=2026
Surgicalcric
10-28-2007, 19:08
If you young lads and other posters will notice the first page was all guys who had been through the Q Course...
For those that ain't yet and them that never will be, why don't we reserve the comments...
To reiterate what the SGM hinted at, if you havent been to the SFQC, graduated and have first hand knowledge of the course reserve your comments for another thread.
Crip
Oh boo frickin' hoo. Guess what, when I put my Green Beret on all I could do was slap the dashboard of a Humvee like a monkey, and the only place I'd ever seen a .50 cal was in the movies. But you know what... I'm leaving for an advanced Humvee driving course in a couple weeks, and I can set head space and timing like a champ. Guess who's going to be riding shotgun on the Ma' Deuce in Iraq? I know when it's appropriate to use proper military courtesy and when things can be more relaxed. I've put more boatloads of rounds downrange learning transition drills, shooting and moving drills, and CQB training in the past couple months than in my entire time in the Army. Furthermore, we've got SFAUC coming up. I've already been to language refresher where I got a chance to dust the cobwebs off my Russian, and I've learned more about practical application of commo in the past 6 months than I ever did in the course.
And to top it all off... I'm just on the B-Team. So stop besmirching the reputation of my generation with your child-like incessant whining and go seek that knowledge and experience you want so badly. You earned that damned Green Beret... NOW ACT LIKE ONE!!
Great reply to that thread. Almost the same has gone for a lot of buddies that showed up to group and within months have been to numerous schools/ranges learning exactly what they didn't hit on during the 'Q'. *Edit in* Most of them are as well 18X's that don't have a "clue" this poster speaks of.
He probably got recycled somewhere if he was there 2 years! When I attended the SFQC, the ONLY guys who got to shoot were the 18B's anyway...maybe the O's shot a little, but that's it, so if he put 500 rounds downrange, he did more than most did back then and we turned out OK.
He probably got recycled somewhere if he was there 2 years! When I attended the SFQC, the ONLY guys who got to shoot were the 18B's anyway...maybe the O's shot a little, but that's it, so if he put 500 rounds downrange, he did more than most did back then and we turned out OK.
I agree. The entire Q-course we went to the range once. We qualified on m-4 and pistol. And for the record that was the first time I had ever fired a pistol in the army.
Needle D
11-18-2007, 01:24
In the 2002-2004 timeframe we went to the range twice during the whole course. I would agree that it was about 500 rounds for the whole course.
I don’t think that he is a poser, (some unfortunate team will get him) some of his gripes and whines are things that people going through the course really do see as faults. It did suck going to a team knowing they were going to count on you to get the job done and feeling like you knew nothing. However, that’s what it is supposed to be like. The team will take you and teach you when you don’t know how to do something. 18Bs will sign out M2s from the arms room to teach you how to do headspace and timing. 18Es will teach you how to turn on a PSC-5. 18Cs will tell you not to eat the C4. 18D will teach you how to pack a bullet wound. And the 18z well he will teach u everything else.
Basically you are a blank SF soldier when u get out of the course. Your team will mold and equip you to be a contributing member of the team.
deanwells
11-18-2007, 08:00
He can whine all he wants...I'm sure he'll get a swift kick in the middle and learn the answers to all his gripes. 18 X's these days can make E-6 when they report to their team as long as the leadership deems him fit for promotion.
later,
dw
What a screen name?
Recent grad of the Q and his profile lists him as a SSG? OK you young stud muffin 18Xs, what is the fastest you're making E-6 these days?
Liked the bit about - he would be an 18A if only.
18X is not a functional MOS, it is a training MOS. Therefore,you can not be promoted to an NCO rank as an 18X. Sometimes, 18X's get lucky a get a set of 11B orders coming out of OSUT, in which case they are eligable for promotion should there records be ammended to reflect. If not, they are stuck at E4 until they graduate and get a 18 series MOS. If they have a functional MOS, they can go to the E5 board during MOS or langauge phase. All requirments for primary and secondary zone consideration remain in effect for someone with an Infantry MOS, i.e. 4 months TIS and 18 months TIS. No way he can make SSG as an Infantryman as requirements remain at 5 months TIG and 48 months TIS. From what I understand, primary and secondary zone requirements for promotion to E6 are waived for someone who has a 18 series MOS.
So, it is concievable that the kid could make E5 while in the Q Course. Then move to Group and because he is 18 series, go to the E6 board as soon as possible. I have seen it. Although, most Team Sergeants don't do this and make the kid prove himself before going to the board. I know one 18X who got out upon expiration of his contract still an E5.
As far as I know, E7 selection requirements still remain the same. Kid is going to need 2 years TIG and 6 years TIS in order to be eligable.
The first page...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you young lads and other posters will notice the first page was all guys who had been through the Q Course, the second page is starting to get some that ain't started yet and some that never will.
For those that ain't yet and them that never will be, why don't we reserve the comments.
Fear Monkey, Crip you guys are fairly new out of the course so I'll let you do the heavy lifting now .
Pete
I'm new out of the course as well and have three years prior service as an 11B with the 101st so I'll add my thoughts also. Granted, as with any school in the Army, you're going to have complaints. Everyone does. Yes, I believe the language portion of the Q Course could definitely use some improvements! Yes, it would have been nice to shoot more. But while I was in the course and once I graduated the course, I fully understood that I was not going to learn everything there and be an expert at every single SF task. I knew, and still know that there is a ton of stuff that I haven't learned yet. And I'm looking forward to continuing on in my SF education through various schools, etc. That's the beauty of it all. You learn the basic SF skills in the course. After that, you get the opportunity to learn from the guys on your team or at other schools where others have experiences/knowledge that you don't have. In my opinion, to learn from others and to continuously add new tools to your tool box should be something that every new guy should strive for. I would never say that the time I spent in the Q Course was a waste of time. All in all, it was time very well spent that laid the ground work for everything to come.
I too am a recent graduate. This guy will have a long and illustrious career as a support dude somewhere. The course isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good. The one thing this guy should have learned is the ability to learn on the fly and put the knowledge to use. I'm no SFAS cadre, but I'm willing to bet they assess candidates ability to pick up info quickly and put it to use. His true colors will shine through, and he won't last too long on a Team.
18X is not a functional MOS, it is a training MOS. Therefore,you can not be promoted to an NCO rank as an 18X. Sometimes, 18X's get lucky a get a set of 11B orders coming out of OSUT, in which case they are eligable for promotion should there records be ammended to reflect. If not, they are stuck at E4 until they graduate and get a 18 series MOS. If they have a functional MOS, they can go to the E5 board during MOS or langauge phase. All requirments for primary and secondary zone consideration remain in effect for someone with an Infantry MOS, i.e. 4 months TIS and 18 months TIS.
This is a common mis-conception among everybody except 18x in the course. Every single 18X has a MOS. Every Single 18X is Airborne Qualifiied. The idea that we went through OSUT, graduated, and stayed, somehow, non-mos Qualified has always astounded me; especially when Tabbed guys and Officers say it.
We are all 11B and with the P identifier.
Currently, No 18X will get promoted while in the Q course to E5 until they hit their Primary zone, which is 36 months. Every single E3 gets promoted to E4 while in the Q course, and for the 18X's this usually happens like clockwork on their 1 year in service, or around that time. Usually before they start MOS. IF an E2 snags a 18X contract in Basic and did not enlist as an 18X to start as an E3 then they are usually promoted twice in a row.
.....
This system in place royally screws over those that do the 18D course. Everybody I started with have already Graduated and are E5 (some E6) while those of use in the 18D don't get promoted for almost 40 weeks later, mostly because "We haven't done anything". This is even after we are now qualified in 3 MOSes , 11B, S68W, and 18D. However, I can understand their reasoning, because there's alot of people that still fail out, and there's no need to kick E5's back to the RA if they aren't needed. Not only that, but we are X-rays. :)
Currently, those finishing their MoS phase are getting their E5 orders handed to them. That is, everybody except the 18D's as their orders are getting placed into their packets without a copy being given to the soldier. I've seen my E5, and 18D MOS orders, though we never recieved a copy, and nothing was put out to us as a class. All other MOS's are wearing E5's and have been given copies of their orders. This has been the norm for the previous 3 graduating MOS classes
....
Sorry about that interjection
...
Back to the Reason that so many people think that 18X is a MOS. It's placed in our ERB as our Primary MOS. It's not a MOS. It's a contract type. However, that seems to be the way that people everywhere understand it to be.
edit - Spelling, etc
Eagle5US
12-22-2007, 05:02
This system in place royally screws over those that do the 18D course. Everybody I started with have already Graduated and are E5 (some E6) while those of use in the 18D don't get promoted for almost 40 weeks later, mostly because "We haven't done anything". This is even after we are now qualified in 3 MOSes , 11B, S68W, and 18D. However, I can understand their reasoning, because there's alot of people that still fail out, and there's no need to kick E5's back to the RA if they aren't needed. Not only that, but we are X-rays. :)
You aren't qualified as an 18D until you graduate the Q course.
People that fail out after MOS phase are constant headaches....WHY? "Because I am an 18D who didn't finish the Q"
Translation - not an 18D
THe system has always been less favorable to 18D's...even when our medical portion alone was 56 weeks long. Guys (Bravos) went into the Q, graduated and were on a team for more than a year before we ever graduated. Guys would FAIL OUT of Fort Sam (yes, our first medical year was at Fort Sam 20 years ago), go to the Bravo or Charlie course, graduate, and STILL be operational for a year or more before we got to GP.
You aren't being screwed, you are being given the benefit of some truly incredible training that can be gotten no place else in the world. The focus of that training is saving the lives of the men who will depend on you to do exactly that. It can't be rushed, half assed, or "shortened" any more than it already has.
If you are seeking acceptance in SOF for rank - you picked the wrong MOS. Very few D's get picked up for E-8.
Think about your choices to this point - you may need to consider another one.
Eagle
The Reaper
12-22-2007, 09:24
Gruzzen:
Nothing personal, and I think I understand your intent, but your post appears to confirm the bad stereotypes of 18Xs as whiny kids obsessed with themselves and not the force.
This gives ammo to those who would like to see the 18X program abolished and go back to everyone needing to be a Regular Army soldier first before becoming eligible to be "Special".
BTW, a Sergeant (E-5) is a Non-Comissioned Officer expected to lead soldiers in garrison and in combat. In an Infantry unit, an E-5 would be responsible for the health and welfare of up to a squad of a dozen troops. A soldier without any actual Army service or experience in a leadership capacity outside of the school environment should not be in charge of a squad, much less a company of indig in combat. Do you think that your education so far has adequately prepared you to lead a squad through company sized unit? That is why your predecessors many years ago were Spec 4s-7s, and were considered technicians, not leaders.
Unless I miss something, you are getting exactly what you were promised when you enlisted. If you want to get out of school more quickly and be promoted to SGT, fail your evals, and go to the 18B or 18C track. If you wanted to be an E-5 more than you want to be SF, drop from the program and the infantry unit you will be assigned to can make that decision about you.
Again, not trying to be harsh, just pointing out why you are in the position you are in. I suspect that you will make E-5 through E-7 quickly enough once you graduate, and don't worry, there will still be a war going on for you to participate in.
Best of luck.
TR
Eagle5US,
Don't get me wrong, I understand the level and type of training that we are given as 18D. I highly value it, as it's the first thing I've done that's truly challenged me. I completely understand the amount of responsibility placed on the Deltas.
I'm not looking for the Delta course to be shortened, if anything I think there are alot of parts of it that are rushed. There would be nothing wrong with extending the 18D course for another 6-8 weeks.
The Reaper,
I apologize if I come across as a whiny kid, that was not my intent. In answer to your question, yes, I know I can lead a squad/company size element. There is no doubt in my mind that I have the capability to do it.
I've been recommended for promotion twice to E5 by those in charge of me. Both times my packet has been kicked back and the reasoning was "Your an Xray. We dont' promote Xrays". Meanwhile, I've seen RA spec 4's get promoted to E5, who couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag. Surprisingly, none of those soldiers are in the Q anymore.
Currently, there are mass promotions for all E4's to E5 being handed out to those that finish their MOS training. This is not happening with the 18D. As an 18D candidate who's finished my MOS training, I believe I have the right to ask why that is not occuring with the 18D's. The fact that I'm also an X-ray is coincidental.
Surprisingly, most X-rays, that are quality guys, are not here for the money, or the rank. The lack of promotions while in the Q, and the BS that we put up with for simply being an X-ray, are not going to change our minds about where we want to be and what we want to do.
Gruzzen
NousDefionsDoc
12-22-2007, 11:27
E-5 is a pay grade. Sergeant is a rank. TR hit it spot on. If you wear the stripes, you should be capable of being a Sergeant anywhere in the Army. You should be able to perform the duties of the senior man in an infantry squad with the same level of professionalism as you can the junior-assed man on an A-Team.
I knew some E6 dudes that worked ok on a Team, but couldn't march 5 soldiers to chow. They were E6s, not SSGs. And that ain't right.
This is a common mis-conception among everybody except 18x in the course. Every single 18X has a MOS. Every Single 18X is Airborne Qualifiied. The idea that we went through OSUT, graduated, and stayed, somehow, non-mos Qualified has always astounded me; especially when Tabbed guys and Officers say it.
We are all 11B and with the P identifier.
Currently, No 18X will get promoted while in the Q course to E5 until they hit their Primary zone, which is 36 months. Every single E3 gets promoted to E4 while in the Q course, and for the 18X's this usually happens like clockwork on their 1 year in service, or around that time. Usually before they start MOS. IF an E2 snags a 18X contract in Basic and did not enlist as an 18X to start as an E3 then they are usually promoted twice in a row.
Back to the Reason that so many people think that 18X is a MOS. It's placed in our ERB as our Primary MOS. It's not a MOS. It's a contract type. However, that seems to be the way that people everywhere understand it to be.
You are only an 11B if you get a copy of MOS orders. Maybe things have changed, but when I came back in as an 18X they were not issuing MOS orders for 11B upon completion of OSUT. The enlistment option was 18X and not 11X. We had to wait until we received MOS orders from the Q course. Those that were dropped and placed into RA were given orders at that time. The reason why 18X is placed in the ERB is so those at HRC / PERSCOM have an idea of what the soldier is doing when they inspect their ERB.
Para,
We were given our orders when we left for Airborne with our 201 files. Perhaps things have changed, they always tend to. It is the army after all.
Gruzzen
The Reaper,
I apologize if I come across as a whiny kid, that was not my intent. In answer to your question, yes, I know I can lead a squad/company size element. There is no doubt in my mind that I have the capability to do it.
I've been recommended for promotion twice to E5 by those in charge of me. Both times my packet has been kicked back and the reasoning was "Your an Xray. We dont' promote Xrays". Meanwhile, I've seen RA spec 4's get promoted to E5, who couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag. Surprisingly, none of those soldiers are in the Q anymore.
Currently, there are mass promotions for all E4's to E5 being handed out to those that finish their MOS training. This is not happening with the 18D. As an 18D candidate who's finished my MOS training, I believe I have the right to ask why that is not occuring with the 18D's. The fact that I'm also an X-ray is coincidental.
Surprisingly, most X-rays, that are quality guys, are not here for the money, or the rank. The lack of promotions while in the Q, and the BS that we put up with for simply being an X-ray, are not going to change our minds about where we want to be and what we want to do.
Gruzzen
Grasshopper
Your perception of your Leadership of men skills may just be a little higher than the reality. You will never know until you are in a Real Unit not a training unit. I have known a few Outstanding SF Baby's and a lot that could not lead a monkey down the hall on a leash. Not knocking you or them that is just a fact. Only a few men were born right out of the crib to be an NCO and Combat leader but most were taught and learned over time by being taught by those with experience in their units. You have chosen your track to run and there are historical reasons for what you are experiencing. Just suck it up and continue to drive on with a positive outlook and determination and you will get there.
Head the words of those that have traveled this trail before you. I can tell you between just 3 of us on this thread we have over 60 years of RA and SF time. TR and others know the hurdles and what is needed and what works.
You sort of sound like my son when he entered the army and now he finally has told me that you know dad you do know what you are talking about.
"Teachers openly told us the answers, and we cheated with another to pass.
And you're not sure why you're not learning things you thought you would learn?
I received a mobile phone text today from one of our younger brother currently in the middle of the “Q”. While sitting in class, he responds to a text I sent, asking, "How's it going? What's up?, Where are you these days?"
His reply was, "Hi. It's going well? I'm sitting in class right now. Q course is different than I imagined...more handholding than I anticipated. How's everything with you?"
I see age and maturity in his reply, nothing ordinary, just simple dialogue with student and myself. I've mentored more than one over the years, but continually see the trend.
Another this week, said, "I seem to know a lot about the process and 'course' and I haven't even been selected yet".
My reply to that soldier was, "One of the greatest treasures I took from my SF experience, was not knowing what was coming next. You have the gift of intuition, develop it.”
From a QP this week,….
“Brother, I fear I would be completely lost in today’s Army. I had a rebellious nature, I questioned authority, took everything "with a grain of salt", took initiatives, supported my Team Leader and Tm Sgt, and never left a buddy to do a job alone, regardless of rank.”
“These kids today, actually believe they can graduate on their own. Brother, I never worked out outside of regular PT. I didn't read a book, "to find the magic bullet", I absolutely would never go rucking on the weekends just to get more miles and toughen my feet. My weekends were meant for grilling a steak, (in the barracks), having a beer or two or three, maybe four, fix or six, writing a letter to a girl back home or maybe turning a wrench on the truck. In short, I slept alot, and took a nap everyday lying in the sun."
From another, “My ass would be administratively discharged or just plain court martialed, as I would not put troops on any frigging road, much less drive down the damn road. The infantry walks. Even Mech INF is supposed to get off the damn roads too. These damn Generals have never seen combat. They are like having a TRADOC O-6 write doctrine when he has never commanded shit in combat, has no CIB, etc. I really worry about these troops today with these ROE's.”
And from another, “Much is very true. Let me expand a bit. We took a company basecamp of 80 plus VC complete with bunkers and training facilities made of bamboo on 15 Nov 68. I had one SF NCO and 30 yards. .That is how good those raids were. Now after being lucky and catching these battle tested VC by surprise while they were washing rice pots in a steam and resting, my CCS CO (LTC) orders my ass back to guard the damn berm that night. I about shit.
The Infantry School taught me to take a enemy bunker complex and to set up for a counter attack. We fought 7 hours to take that place, called in the damn world and lost one yard. Then I was ordered to give the damn bunker complex back before I could blow it. I blew up the side of a mountain later. Two weeks or so earlier, ‘John’ and I hit an NVA heavy weapons company. We had them by surprise as they did not see us or know where we were when the gunships hit them. My CO pulls us.
Our base camps are built too large. Base camps, if any, should be built as small as possible, and; require as few troops as possible to defend.
If you cannot field an entire company plus from a BN plus-your base camp is way too damn big."
BT
I mention all this for two, and only two reasons.
Make the “Q” what you want it be. Second, we honor a young SSG who received the CMOH today, age at death, 24 years old. He was one of you, sitting in class, thinking, “there is a lot of hand holding going on.”
For those who are about to graduate, please, please, please, remain humble. Listen to your Tm SGTs upon your next assignments. Ask questions, remain open to learn, we need you guys desperately, and being ‘desperate’ is a tough place to be.
Wet Dog
The SFQC is but Junior High, your ODA is High School and College rolled together. Step up to the challenge or go back to the regular army.
As bad as I ever thought I had it in SF, I had to merely visit a conventional army post (such as Graf last week), and see them in action. I clicked my heels 3 times and said "there's no place like SF" repeatedly. A great refresher to help me focus on the challenges of raising 3 Xrays on a 5 man Bteam.
As for leadership. some are born with it, some find it along the way, others are still floating along in the pond looking for a clue.
In my time as an SFODA primary nco I met a few of these dissatisfied misfits and recommended them to support battalion to help them on their way. Now the beautiful thing about an EER is that they follow you FOREVER. Never accept this type of individual.
When I entered my first team room on Smoke Bomb Hill I was informed that the "Q" offered me an introduction. Then began my job performance which would be (and was) much more difficult.
Military careers are too short to waste time on prima donas. E's or O's. (WO's)
I hear you brother, 'loud and clear'.
I loved the "Q", the challenges, the friends. I loved my first ODA even more.
This thread, which I had to read, again, from the beginning set me off, got under my skin and put me on my heels.
It was the PMs from our brothers sent this week that gave a sense of relief, when we concurred the "Q" was a learning lab preparing the new soldier with the skills needed. Our young brother who texted me today is the type we do want on our ODAs, trust me. He's wanting more, and I'm assuring him, it will come. He's demanding of himself, he's determined to be the best he can, and in that I'm confident SF will remain a palace for warriors to ascent to.
The prepared SF soldiers identifies all needed requirements for a successful mission. He then identifies his shortages. If adaptation is needed, he adjusts, right? Where else is one going to learn that in this army, today, if not in SF. My personal challenge was my inexperience in the army in general. I entered the "Q" as a PFC/E3, and graduated as a CPL/E4. While visiting a friend at Benning after my "Q" graduation, I entered the Pay and Finance Office for assistance and was confronted by the NCOIC, SFC/E7 who could not take his eyes off of my NCO development ribbon. He berated me for 15 minutes because I had completed BNCOC, at my rank. I felt helpless. I simply knew nothing about the regular army, having never been in a regular army unit.
It was the Tm S-1, who said, "Seperate yourself from the 'minutia', focus on the needs of the team, circle back and complete the details".
I had to look that "word" up. In perfect SF style, I identified my weaknesses and made them my strengths, 6 months later, I became the S1, he went to O&I.
There is a flow to this, I welcome this next generation of troopers.
1stindoor
10-07-2010, 07:10
This thread, which I had to read, again, from the beginning set me off, got under my skin and put me on my heels.
I had to re-read the thread again myself. It irritated me as well. What most of these younger guys don't realize is that we were in this business for 30+ years prior to 9/11 and combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are expected to be equally adept at developing a POI, training a police force, teaching BRM, setting the headspace and timing, conducting a raid, leading troops, setting up a classroom, ...and the list goes on. You could spend years at SWC....and still walk out of there without a full grasp of what you will encounter next on an ODA.
1stindoor
10-07-2010, 07:54
First problem is the recruiting and all of the eye candy that is presented: Guys jumping HALO, Coming out of the water in SCUBA Gear, Racing through a river on a zodiac raft,Patrolling with cool boony caps, blowing doors and rushing in, etc etc.
To begin with, anyone that applies thinking that this is all we do...is probably too stupid to successfully graduate the course. Advertising...is just that...advertising. Before you purchase...you still have a responsibility to do your own homework to determine whether or not this is a job for you. This is why the admins of this site are so stringent on people using the "search" button. Everyone wants their answer...now...on their terms...and if it isn't the answer they want...they want to argue about it. In the age of the 'net...just about everything is out there if you're willing to search for it. Don't blame advertising...blame laziness.
I heard it throughout my time in the q-course and hear it now and again by men of wisdom, that truly competent SF personnel are masters of the BASICS.
You're mistaken...we are also expected to master the more intricate, detailed, and tougher tasks as well. A well built foundation provides for a stronger structure. No amount of "high speed" training will stand up to poor fundamentals.
One is there is a mandatory safety brief every Friday and long weekend.
As much as it pains me to say this...on your left pec...just above your left ACU shirt pocket...there's a small piece of tape...it says, "U.S. ARMY." No amount of bitching will take away from the fact that we are still a part of the "big Army."
The second problem is something to do with is an individual has less than a 70 average than that person must attend a mandatory study hall…..Is this a good course of action? I don’t think so.
There is nothing wrong with a study hall, mandatory or otherwise...some Soldiers have never learned good study habits. Some mistakenly believe they are just incapable of grasping a specific concept and are therefore not smart enough to proceed. We try to give them the help they'll need. Not just to make them successfully pass a specific portion of the course...but also to be successful on a team. You stated you just "reclassed"...is this because you were not good enough at your previous MOS...or did you think you were going to be better as a delta...maybe your command just thought it would be nice to have you out of sight and out of mind for several months. I have known many 18 series Soldiers over the years with several different 18 series MOSs. And all of them have fallen into one catagory or another. Very few were actually sent from their detachment to get a second MOS because their Tm Sgt thought it would be better for the team. My only point in all of this is that what you may think is "hand-holding" others may think of as mentoring, training, and leading.
Here is how this would brief if I was the Boss:...
When you're the boss...you can institute the change you wish to see...and I guarentee that someone, probably with a lot less time in SF than you...will think you've got it wrong.
SOME not ALL instructors need to take a look at themselves and get off the poopy face fucking train and except the fact that they are instructors.
All I can say here is:
1. You meant accept...not except...two different meanings.
2. In SF, as I'm sure you're well aware, everything revolves around the ODA. You're either fighting to get on one, stay on one, or get back to one. It's only after you've done your Team Sergeant time do you have to accept the fact that it's over.
And just out of curiousity...have you had an assignment to SWC?
1stindoor
10-07-2010, 09:18
Don't take my "rant" as a personal attack, I was just trying to show different sides to the discussion.
As for the "big boy rules"...I did say it pains me to say it. Those that know me, know I hate having to follow all the rules all the time...but it's gotten increasingly harder to maintain that mentality as I've grown older...i.e. made rank.
I wasn't catagorizing you as a pain, I apologize if that's what came across, I simply meant that there is a lot of different reasons to change MOS's...not all of them are a result of someone wanting to be a better asset to a team. Some of the best 18E's I've known failed 300F1 (an old 18D part of the course). Some of the best 18B's...couldn't copy code to save their life. Personally...I sucked as an 18B...but excelled as an 18F....the jury's probably still out on my success as an 18Z. :rolleyes:
Honestly, there wasn't a need to let me know you haven't done a SWC tour...those of us that have...knew you hadn't. And if you come and you're not kicking and screaming...there's probably some serious extenuating circumstances. FWIW...in nearly 25 yrs, 21 in group,...this is my third tour.
........I don't remember there being a safety brief every Friday of every weekend when I went through the course or when I was on the line..........
As a 1SG in 1st Bn during 1989 I can well remember the Safety Briefing given to the students at the start of every long weekend and training holiday weekend.
I would venture to say most don't remember it as there was the typical eye rolling, dazed looking "Ain't this shit over yet" look on all their faces. Can't say I blame them but "Check the Square, they got the brief. Big boy rule in effect."
whocares175
10-24-2010, 19:19
as someone currently going through the delta course (albeit almost done with it) i would like to comment on the study hall issue. i have to agree with SF718 in the basic feeling that study hall is a waste of time. if an individual isn't motivated enough to study and work on their weaknesses then they shouldn't be here. study hall should be voluntary for all soldiers. i found plenty of time to study at home with a wife and 3 kids and still maintained a 95% average through SOCM and a 93% average through SFMS. the idea of study hall is to provide uninterrupted study time...but what about when an individual doesn't know how to study? or what about if the material doesn't make sense to him? the biggest problem with study hall is that there isn't anyone there who can answer your questions or help you to see why things are the way they are. there is supposed to be an instructor present during study hall. they aren't. half the time they come take roll and disappear. the other half they don't even come by. you could argue "well ask a classmate who understands it better" and the exact counter point you'll hear is "they're in study hall too for failing as well". so there goes the credibility of anyone else in study hall with few exceptions (the guy that normally gets 90-100's and bombed one test for what ever reason). yes there is A LOT of information being put out in the course and for a good reason. we just need to figure out a way to get the guys who WANT to know it the information in a way that makes sense and weed out the ones who don't WANT to know it. i've known several guys that really didn't want to be there and were happy with simply skating by with a 75% even though they could do a lot better. honestly i'd rather have the dude that failed trying working on me than the guy who barely passed but had the potential to do a lot better.
as for the other issues brought up in this forum-saftey briefs-while i hate them just as much as everyone else in the course and wish and keep hoping for the day of "you got the safety brief when you got here, those are the standards, disobey and you're out" i've been in the army long enough to know this isn't going to happen. i do appreciate what JSOMTC does as far as us going to the safety briefs only for long weekends. my personal feeling is that once you hit MOS phase this is how it should be. after all you have proven yourself to be somewhat mature and competent.
language school-breaking language school up the way it used to be was retarded. i'm glad they brought it back to all of it in one shot. i never was given answers to any tests. language school was challenging and i studied 3-4 hrs a day everyday and think i got a lot out of it. my biggest complaint was the during the OPI i wasn't allowed to talk beyond skill level 1 and neither were any of us who tested with that particular tester. there were several of us that our instructors told us we could speak at a skill level 2. i would've appreciated that opportunity.
as for .50 cal's and humvee's-as an infantryman i was only briefly exposed to these in basic AND when i got to my unit. it wasn't until i got to Ranger Battalion that i finally learned about setting headspace and timing and how to drive a humvee. he does have a point in stating that there is a lot of common soldier skills left out of the Qcourse however that's where someone who's an Xray has to realize they're will be a step learning curve when he gets to Group to learn these things.
on the subject of O's and E's-that guy is an idiot. plan and simple. Bragg has enough brass that if he's trying to convince anyone he doesn't know the relationship between officers and enlisted....well lets just say i want some of whatever he's smoking.
tom kelly
10-25-2010, 22:07
Don't ever expect anything from anyone and you will never be disappointed.
Depend on yourself and others may see fit to depend on you....
Regard's,....tom kelly
Green Light
10-26-2010, 05:05
Don't ever expect anything from anyone and you will never be disappointed.
Depend on yourself and others may see fit to depend on you....
Regard's,....tom kelly
We didn't even have a tab. All I got was some of the most amazing experiences in history, hang out with heroes, and do things that people only see in the movies. Made history a couple of times.
Yeah, I see what you mean. It should be three years! (It would have still been worth it!)
greenberetTFS
10-26-2010, 13:28
I never got the Tab or the Yarborough knife,but I did earn a "Green Beret" which to me is the most meaningful award I've ever earned....... :) De Oppresso Liber......:)
Big Teddy :munchin
ZonieDiver
10-26-2010, 14:18
We didn't even have a tab. All I got was some of the most amazing experiences in history, hang out with heroes, and do things that people only see in the movies. Made history a couple of times.
Yeah, I see what you mean. It should be three years! (It would have still been worth it!)
All that... and the pride my daughters have in knowing that I did what I did, when I did it, and who I did it in the company of...
x SF med
10-26-2010, 14:39
I loved it so much I did Sage twice as a Light Weapons guy and then went back to reclass as a medic...:D
greenberetTFS
10-26-2010, 17:24
You know the more I thought about BMT's original post on "TheLengendaryFailure" the more pissed off I got......... :mad: What we should have done after we found out who this pecker head was,was to go down were he's stationed and rip off that Tab that he clearly disrespected,kick him in the ass and run him out of Group............ :mad: OK,I'm finished with my rant,still not quite sure what eventually came out of this...............:confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
Surgicalcric
10-26-2010, 17:29
What we should have done after we found out who this pecker head was,was to go down were he's stationed and rip off that Tab the he clearly disrespected,kick him in the ass and run him out of Group............
We couldnt do that, it would hurt the numbers...
Crip
I never got the Tab or the Yarborough knife,but I did earn a "Green Beret" which to me is the most meaningful award I've ever earned....... :) De Oppresso Liber......:)
Big Teddy :munchin
Amen
Best College or University I went to.. John Wayne U
Backwoods
11-01-2010, 07:09
I think I threw up a little in my mouth reading that.....
Since this is on an open thread let me just say to all of you WHO ARE working on getting through the course......
1. Its a course, its basic skills for SF, take it as a stepping stone and make a decision to master what you have been taught
2. Completion of the course allows you to be given a key to the door, which lets you in the SF house. Its there with your team mates and mentors etc where the REAL education begins.
As a parting comment ALL of us with some rank were young SF guys at one time. We all knew EVERYTHING and had all the opinions that go with it. However, its that one day in combat or that one day in the middle of a third world country that YOU have to make it happen and it all "clicks" and you say to yourself ......"Wow that SGT wasn't so jacked up as I thought and MAN do I have a lot to learn..."
Funny, this thread brings back memories of some of my classmates in O&I (1985) Many were pissed they "didn't learn anything about being on a team" somehow after 16wks they did not understand the training was about guerrilla or partisan warfare and the course about teaching them to be a Bn Staff...
Ok maybe not everything. We were the first class to have Mr. Marvin Wells teaching research papers, I had "tobacco" as a subject. Lol
MVP
As a 1SG in 1st Bn during 1989 I can well remember the Safety Briefing given to the students at the start of every long weekend and training holiday weekend.
"Check the Square, they got the brief. Big boy rule in effect."
ISG: Don't drink and drive. If you must drink and drive, drive someone else's car. If you're driving someone else's car, drive fast, it will minimize your exposure time.
Students: Got it, where do we sign?
This kind of scum is the reason that most X-rays (I can at least speak for myself) do not like to be known as such. I know what learning environment this misguided sap is trying to critique. I participated in the compressed language combined with MOS class, and yes there were long nights of studying. The Q-course changes and reacts to the needs of our force. If this master of training doctrine development and strategic policy believes he has a better way, perhaps he should be the commanding General of JFKSWCS. But he is not, he is a punk. If he still holds a tab (I anticipate he has already gotten a DWI or had his ruck thrown in the hall by now) then he shames the Brotherhood and any X-ray that is worth a darn.
The number one piece of advice that I received from my time in the school house was “when you get to your team, regardless of rank, you are the FNG. You will be referred-to and treated as such. Keep your mouth shut and your ears open until you have either served one full year on the team or a combat deployment, whichever comes first.” I followed this guidance and did not utter a word besides yes, no or roger for the first year. I learned my job, I earned respect, and what happened in the Q became a distant and irrelevant memory.
I do not understand why someone would not learn something as simple as the alphabet before leaving for training.
despite the date of this thread, I'm sure a lot has changed but I couldn't know how much so..
Now.. the fact of only having 2hrs or about 500 rounds down range in a Qualifying course that puts you in a special operations unit just doesn't sound right? how is that even qualifying? I'm potentially a 18x recruit but what this man has said (regardless of his attitude) is a bit discouraging to hear. I want the best training In the world. It is one of my many reasons for wanting to join SF. I hope my concern is understandable. The point about how they promote SF to get more recruits with the high speed film clips of the awesome training is a good point. It does imply a misconception of the reality of training I'm sure. But it is something I look forward to and I'm sure all of you did as well. Now I'm sure In going to get hammered by some of you because I'm a civi who knows nothing as Ive seen you guys destroy people on this site. The average BUD/s student in 3rd phase puts down about 10,000-20,000 rounds in a matter of 7 weeks. live demo, and live round exercises. This seems to not be implemented based on this original threads comments. Is the 2hr of range time a funding issue or just the way of design? At what point does the marksmanship and time behind the gun become proficient and constant? Or does this skill require someone to attend a school once they get to a team? Or is it the big boy rules of you need to go learn yourself by finding a civilian coach? Can somebody (without bashing me on being a civilian and not knowing what I'm talking about) give me a better understanding.:confused::confused:
despite the date of this thread, I'm sure a lot has changed but I couldn't know how much so..
Now.. the fact of only having 2hrs or about 500 rounds down range in a Qualifying course that puts you in a special operations unit just doesn't sound right? how is that even qualifying? I'm potentially a 18x recruit but what this man has said (regardless of his attitude) is a bit discouraging to hear. I want the best training In the world. It is one of my many reasons for wanting to join SF. I hope my concern is understandable. The point about how they promote SF to get more recruits with the high speed film clips of the awesome training is a good point. It does imply a misconception of the reality of training I'm sure. But it is something I look forward to and I'm sure all of you did as well. Now I'm sure In going to get hammered by some of you because I'm a civi who knows nothing as Ive seen you guys destroy people on this site. The average BUD/s student in 3rd phase puts down about 10,000-20,000 rounds in a matter of 7 weeks. live demo, and live round exercises. This seems to not be implemented based on this original threads comments. Is the 2hr of range time a funding issue or just the way of design? At what point does the marksmanship and time behind the gun become proficient and constant? Or does this skill require someone to attend a school once they get to a team? Or is it the big boy rules of you need to go learn yourself by finding a civilian coach? Can somebody (without bashing me on being a civilian and not knowing what I'm talking about) give me a better understanding.:confused::confused:
Interesting first post after your intro.
despite the date of this thread, I'm sure a lot has changed but I couldn't know how much so..
Now.. the fact of only having 2hrs or about 500 rounds down range in a Qualifying course that puts you in a special operations unit just doesn't sound right? how is that even qualifying? I'm potentially a 18x recruit but what this man has said (regardless of his attitude) is a bit discouraging to hear. I want the best training In the world. It is one of my many reasons for wanting to join SF. I hope my concern is understandable. The point about how they promote SF to get more recruits with the high speed film clips of the awesome training is a good point. It does imply a misconception of the reality of training I'm sure. But it is something I look forward to and I'm sure all of you did as well. Now I'm sure In going to get hammered by some of you because I'm a civi who knows nothing as Ive seen you guys destroy people on this site. The average BUD/s student in 3rd phase puts down about 10,000-20,000 rounds in a matter of 7 weeks. live demo, and live round exercises. This seems to not be implemented based on this original threads comments. Is the 2hr of range time a funding issue or just the way of design? At what point does the marksmanship and time behind the gun become proficient and constant? Or does this skill require someone to attend a school once they get to a team? Or is it the big boy rules of you need to go learn yourself by finding a civilian coach? Can somebody (without bashing me on being a civilian and not knowing what I'm talking about) give me a better understanding.:confused::confused:
Your entire post is gobbledygook.
Your entire post is gobbledygook.
I don't understand?
I don't understand?
We know
miclo18d
05-01-2017, 18:10
Sheesh.... you know everything.... we've been faking it all this time, 2 hours if you're on a really awesome team, maybe!
Go be a SEAL...................... please.
:munchin
That post gave me a headache..:mad:
wow.. way to set an example. thanks anyways.
I'll bet a $100 that he doesn't make it in either course (SFQC or BUDS).
I'll bet a $100 that he doesn't make it in either course (SFQC or BUDS).
Didn't you mean ASVAB?? :munchin
miclo18d
05-02-2017, 19:02
Just read his profile.
SJW that plays too many first person shooters.
I think that SF and SEALS are what he wants, but PEACE CORPS is probably more to his capability.
BTW, Snappy, I hear the PEACE CORPS shoots more than SEALS do, look into it. Definitely better than SF, I just couldn't hack it there, with having to do push-ups and all.
:munchin
Peregrino
05-03-2017, 08:01
wow.. way to set an example. thanks anyways.
Snappy - Now that you've made yourself into a chew toy, I'll take pity on you (for as long as it takes me to type this post). Whatever your expectations are WRT the SFQC - they're wrong. Or at least "underinformed". Rest assured that IF you make it to the SFQC, you will be receiving the best training available to prepare you to be an entry level member of an SFODA. When an SF Soldier shows up at his first team, he is expected to have working knowledge (expertise comes after years of experience) of an incredible variety of skills. The SFQC has finite resources to impart those skills. That means everything is prioritized. Marksmanship is a VERY low priority. It's highly perishable, a PITA to schedule and conduct in a schoolhouse environment (unless you're in one of the "shooting" schools - then it's just expensive), and (did I mention?) highly perishable. IOW - it's not worth the effort to put it in the Schoolhouse when it'll all have to be retaught (and then sustained) at the unit. Trust me when I tell you that everyone preparing to deploy spends enough time shooting to convince their CofC that they are safe, effective, and can accomplish their mission down range.
As for SEALS - There's a reason they spend so much time shooting in their "pipeline". There's also a reason SF's "pipeline" is TWO YEARS long (and prioritizes skills other than shooting). The respective schoolhouses produce vastly differing products. If you don't appreciate the difference, you might want to focus your efforts somewhere besides SF; otherwise you will find yourself as disgruntled (and clueless) as the individual who's comments started this thread.
NOW - read more and post less.
Trapper John
05-03-2017, 09:18
Wow, I am sorry I started reading this thread again! Well, at least until I read your post Peregrino. Way, to pull this one out of the shit can! :lifter
Snappy, read and reread what Peregrino said until you comprehend his meaning. If you can't, don't or won't then save yourself a ton of butt hurt and don't enter the Q. We all will thank you for not wasting a slot.
Oh, and Snappy, it's anyway not "anyways". ;)
Snappy - Now that you've made yourself into a chew toy, I'll take pity on you (for as long as it takes me to type this post). Whatever your expectations are WRT the SFQC - they're wrong. Or at least "underinformed". Rest assured that IF you make it to the SFQC, you will be receiving the best training available to prepare you to be an entry level member of an SFODA. When an SF Soldier shows up at his first team, he is expected to have working knowledge (expertise comes after years of experience) of an incredible variety of skills. The SFQC has finite resources to impart those skills. That means everything is prioritized. Marksmanship is a VERY low priority. It's highly perishable, a PITA to schedule and conduct in a schoolhouse environment (unless you're in one of the "shooting" schools - then it's just expensive), and (did I mention?) highly perishable. IOW - it's not worth the effort to put it in the Schoolhouse when it'll all have to be retaught (and then sustained) at the unit. Trust me when I tell you that everyone preparing to deploy spends enough time shooting to convince their CofC that they are safe, effective, and can accomplish their mission down range.
As for SEALS - There's a reason they spend so much time shooting in their "pipeline". There's also a reason SF's "pipeline" is TWO YEARS long (and prioritizes skills other than shooting). The respective schoolhouses produce vastly differing products. If you don't appreciate the difference, you might want to focus your efforts somewhere besides SF; otherwise you will find yourself as disgruntled (and clueless) as the individual who's comments started this thread.
NOW - read more and post less.
awesome! I never doubted the level of training the Q course will provide, I was just confused on why shooting wasn't a prime focus. But now I understand and appreciate the reason. I know SF has some of the best shooters in the world and I was curious as to when those skills are taught and developed. Honing in on my shooting skills within a team is something I look forward to. thank you for taking the time to clear that up for me.
read more, and post less.. copy that.