View Full Version : Katrina vs. California fires
Heard some interesting commentary on the radio today about how even with the disasterous fires folks in California have heeded warnings, not looted, and chaos has not reigned.
Whereas many Katrina victims who for decades have depended on big government and entitlement programs disregarded warnings, and immediately had their hand out for $2000 credit cards, and looted. Corruption and mismangement at the local and state level further contributed to the problem. IE putting people in the superdome.
Any thoughts, expansions on the topic?
A family member of mine works in a high profile office for the City of San Diego. Just google San Diego Corruption, it's not as tidy a community as one might think... But yes, I do think the victims of this disaster will/are handling it a little differently.
Fire is different than flood, not nearly as much debris to clean up.
Firewolf
10-23-2007, 20:20
I was born and raised in a part of California where socialist ideals run rampant in its culture and schools. A simultaneous hatred and dependence of the system is preached and adhered to by many. My parents, however, are rather conservative and instilled in me a belief that self reliance is the key to success, a seemingly lost concept to members of my own generation.
As I approached adulthood, socializing with less than savory characters, I met family upon family of welfare recipients who would gladly bear another child if it meant a bigger check. I had a sibling involved in lawsuits over 'slipping' in a public place, and he gladly took his disability checks to the bank, with not even a falter in his step. I always asked myself, 'who wants to live like this, and why?'
It seems to me that these people have forgotten the small promise of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness" and added the footnote "or entitlement thereof if the aforementioned is difficult."
I would not say that the culture of entitlements is ethnically, racially, or regionally based. I would say for some it's learned behavior, and for others it's just easier than working.
The riots in California back in '92 showed a similar reaction to that of Katrina, what's the difference?
dmgedgoods
10-23-2007, 22:26
I was born and raised in a part of California where socialist ideals run rampant in its culture and schools. A simultaneous hatred and dependence of the system is preached and adhered to by many. My parents, however, are rather conservative and instilled in me a belief that self reliance is the key to success, a seemingly lost concept to members of my own generation.
As I approached adulthood, socializing with less than savory characters, I met family upon family of welfare recipients who would gladly bear another child if it meant a bigger check. I had a sibling involved in lawsuits over 'slipping' in a public place, and he gladly took his disability checks to the bank, with not even a falter in his step. I always asked myself, 'who wants to live like this, and why?'
It seems to me that these people have forgotten the small promise of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness" and added the footnote "or entitlement thereof if the aforementioned is difficult."
I would not say that the culture of entitlements is ethnically, racially, or regionally based. I would say for some it's learned behavior, and for others it's just easier than working.
The riots in California back in '92 showed a similar reaction to that of Katrina, what's the difference?
Perhaps you grew up in my neck of the woods?
I just heard on...I hate to say it...CNN that massages and buffets were set up at Qualcomm Stadium. Massages?! Happy endings maybe?
I digress...California is falling apart, and nothing shows that better than the coverage of these fires. Why do those with more money get more entitlement to fire protection than those in lesser neighborhoods? Why such bias? Money gets you a lot of good things, not only here, but all over. Maybe that calls to some of the more underlying problems in this country as a whole. Nobody values the fact that we live in America anymore. At least that is the impression I get here in my little enclave. The culture of entitlement is a plague fed by those that do not understand what it means to be American. Out of the 6 billion plus people of this world, maybe those 300 million that live here should realize how lucky we truly are. It is a sad state of affairs. California is the epitome of "money for nothing, chicks for free", as the song goes...That sense of entitlement is reserved for those that take advantage of government "handouts"; it encompasses a strong cross-section of this country, as far as I am concerned...at least until proven otherwise.
Shawn
I just heard on...I hate to say it...CNN that massages and buffets were set up at Qualcomm Stadium. Massages?! Happy endings maybe?
Why do those with more money get more entitlement to fire protection than those in lesser neighborhoods? Why such bias?
Shawn
Example please.
Pat
Heard some interesting commentary on the radio today about how even with the disasterous fires folks in California have heeded warnings, not looted, and chaos has not reigned.
Whereas many Katrina victims who for decades have depended on big government and entitlement programs disregarded warnings, and immediately had their hand out for $2000 credit cards, and looted. Corruption and mismangement at the local and state level further contributed to the problem. IE putting people in the superdome.
Any thoughts, expansions on the topic?
Credit should be given where credit is due.
Everything has been very orderly with local, state, doing the primary lifting. The LOCAL media has been very informative, not sensationalist like the 24 hour news networks. The local Red Cross, volunteers, fire fighters, police, politicians, military, etc. have all come together. Citizens have not panicked and those evacuated have been cooperative with agencies.
There is a difference though, the hurricane was one acute event that affected more than New Orleans (Mississippi was heavy hit, too) in a poor, already crime ridden area where local citizenry isn't pro-active. The fires have been more of a rolling event (though very fast) and lessons learned from the 2003 fire have been implemented (when it was more chaotic with local-state-feds not on the same page).
My 2 cents from watching this unfold sitting here in North County.
Perhaps you grew up in my neck of the woods?
I just heard on...I hate to say it...CNN that massages and buffets were set up at Qualcomm Stadium. Massages?! Happy endings maybe?
Yea, the local news said there are massages being offered - those offering them are volunteers. Anyone and everyone showing up to Qualcomm are being taken in, not just the rich. There is plenty of donated food there, many volunteers giving water/food out, and areas have even been opened up for animals (horses/goats).
There isn't any kind of 'extravagant' waste going on, it's just people helping other people out. The fires themselves are being fought in a very tactical and professional manner. There aren't more fire fighters rushing to save mansions in Rancho Santa Fe while other communities are being abandoned. These fire fighters are doing everything they can. One can't look at the value of a property and decide to save/abandon it. Nor are people with a benz given a pass into certain services while those who don't have one, are being rejected. Did I misunderstand your post? If so, my bad, but these fires to me are not an example of why California is falling apart. That has more to do with the basic details of governance in Sacramento, pension funds, how daily nuts and bolts resources get uses, poor education, taxes, etc.
I don't get it. If anything, these fire-fighting efforts show me that despite all the pessimism, Californians are showing discipline and resiliency, doing what they can to manage an event that is only in nature's hands.
Why do those with more money get more entitlement to fire protection than those in lesser neighborhoods? Why such bias? Money gets you a lot of good things, not only here, but all over.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion and I don't believe the current situation supports your argument. Do you think if a fire broke out in a poor neighborhood the fire department would not be called or not answer the call? I don't know for sure, but I bet if you looked at the amount of calls made by the police and fire departments they occur dissproportionately in a greater percentage in poor neighborhoods.
I'm sure the buffet description is just another way of describing a chow line. I believe many of the local resturaunts were providing food to help those who had been displaced by the fire. Folks providing food gratis has nothing to do with entitlements.
As far as the massages, but it sounds like something CNN would report. I have not heard anything about that, but if its true, I imagine it's similar to the local resturaunts providing free food. Just folks trying to help those who have lost their houses or have been uprooted.
I guess I'm missing the correlation between people caught up in disaster and your message regarding entitlements.
Finally, in California the property tax rate approximates 1% and where some of these houses are worth in excess of a million dollars, these residents are paying over $10,000.00 a year in property taxes. I would say someone paying property taxes in that amount is entitled to have the fire department try and save their homes.
Finally, in California the property tax rate approximates 1% and where some of these houses are worth in excess of a million dollars, these residents are paying over $10,000.00 a year in property taxes. I would say someone paying property taxes in that amount is entitled to have the fire department try and save their homes.
Sorry D, I was with you until this. Everyone gets the same response.
Pat
Why do those with more money get more entitlement to fire protection than those in lesser neighborhoods?
Because they pay for it. Their Taxes are higher for starters. Hell, lets just say they actually pay Taxes. They have every right to better protection if they are the ones paying the Bills. If these people pack up and leave town. The town won't exist.
Gaston County NC has a larger Police force then other Counties of the same size. Their SWAT Team and Task Forces receive better equipment and training then most Agencies. They have one of the few full Time SWAT Teams.
Why? When you live in that county you agree to pay extra Taxes specifically allocated to them for you protection. I would bet similar programs exist in California.
I would bet similar programs exist in California.
For smaller issues, where a local FD needs to respond individual needs (a house on fire, a car on fire, medical support, etc) this is true (a local areas resources dictate how much police, fire, and other support exists), however, for wildfires of this scale all FD communities are helping/supporting each other. It's all about the co-ordinated attack against the massive fire affecting multiple communities at the same time.
Nobody values the fact that we live in America anymore. Shawn
Shawn,
A professor of mine told me to always watch out for these type of statements.
Maybe a better choice would be some people?
Only point this out because I am one tiny little voice that does care, a whole helluva lot! ;)
EDIT to add, I spoke to a close friend earlier, who is ten miles away from the fire on hwy 56. He said they are all just waiting, praying, but are in kind of a shock about the whole thing.
Holly
82ndtrooper
10-24-2007, 04:28
Sean Penn's house was repoted to have burned this morning on Fox & Friends.
Karma's a bitch huh Sean. :boohoo
Ret10Echo
10-24-2007, 04:59
Heard some interesting commentary on the radio today about how even with the disasterous fires folks in California have heeded warnings, not looted, and chaos has not reigned.
Whereas many Katrina victims who for decades have depended on big government and entitlement programs disregarded warnings, and immediately had their hand out for $2000 credit cards, and looted. Corruption and mismangement at the local and state level further contributed to the problem. IE putting people in the superdome.
Any thoughts, expansions on the topic?
Political persuasions aside, the State of California has a very robust Emergency Management organization. They have dealt with these things in the past. If the local population (sheeple) sense that there is order and control you will not get the panic (stampede) that occured in New Orleans.
Income levels are also higher so people have the capability of sustaining themselves for a short time. Additionally I would imagine the number of insured property owners is much higher in CA than in LA.
Don't give CA too much credit though....the LA riots did occur over something seemingly simple, but in this case the impacted population is generally of a different socio-economic level.
Watch out for your insurance rates though...
Just my thoughts
Roguish Lawyer
10-24-2007, 05:23
I left town for a long business trip before the fires started, and I get most of my news from SportCenter, so I don't have all the details about the fires. But this situation does not approach the magnitude of Katrina, which affected everyone in a very large area. While many people have been affected by the fires, you are talking about a very small percentage of the homes in the region.
It also is worth noting that most homes in Canyon areas around LA are very expensive, or at least middle class. Watts is not burning, and it won't unless someone burns it intentionally.
My house fortunately is in the city and not at risk.
dmgedgoods
10-24-2007, 11:31
Because they pay for it. Their Taxes are higher for starters. Hell, lets just say they actually pay Taxes. They have every right to better protection if they are the ones paying the Bills. If these people pack up and leave town. The town won't exist.
Gaston County NC has a larger Police force then other Counties of the same size. Their SWAT Team and Task Forces receive better equipment and training then most Agencies. They have one of the few full Time SWAT Teams.
Why? When you live in that county you agree to pay extra Taxes specifically allocated to them for you protection. I would bet similar programs exist in California.
Thank you for the clarification. It makes good sense. The disparity I was referring to was not in the Stadium, but more so on the front lines. My cousin who is about to be evacuated is my sole source of front line info. On top of that, the media coverage here has been less than stellar. Front page yesterday in the local rag, the subtitle under the picture of firefighters spraying a 5 mil mansion said something along the lines of they tried to save the local, less expensive residences in the area, but where pushed back to saving what they could. I suppose it is a matter of total losses and the costs that would be tallied up. If a few cheaper houses are in the line of fire, save what you can to limit the overall losses? This was my cousins point to me last night. I misconstrued what I have seen in the media...shame on me.
I know the firefighters are doing the best they can. I have several friends from Northern California that are fighting day and night to help as much as they can. I have yet to hear from them, and hope for their safety. I hope my comments were not taken in a negative light. My prayers are out to everybody who has lost everything in these blazes, rich or poor.
Shawn
A good online resource for information:
www.cbs8.com
Most of the MSM (24 news network) coverage has been the usual sensationalist type crap. The local guys are doing a really good job of covering the situation, staying calm, positive, and assertive as are all local bureaucrats and politicians.
Arnold got angry yesterday at a news reporter who was saying that a frustrated orange county official thought he wasn't getting the right/enough air support. Arnold fired back saying she was looking for a problem where there wasn't one. Congressmen from the area worked a few kinks out in getting DOD aircraft (that were available) up. Aircraft were not making drops earlier on because of wind conditions with very powerful gusts. How are birds going to fly in such conditions? People have been very organized and calm. No hysteria here.
CosaNostraUSMC
10-26-2007, 21:40
The two situations are totally, Black & White, when in comparison to each other (no pun intended).
The media wants to make it out to be more than it is.
Consigliere is right, a lot of things are different...demographics, geography, magnitude of disaster itself, State governments systems, etc...etc.
New Orleans had never really experienced that particular event, and by all accounts was not equipped to deal with the aftermath.
On the other hand, So. Cal is known to have those type of wild fires in their valleys and canyons down there. It happens quite frequently and mamy of us, I'm sure, have made extra money in our younger days pulling duty with the CDF.
I can remember about 3 or 4 years ago, I had to catch a connecting flight at LAX enroute to Japan. The wild fires down there were blowing smoke across the run way and I almost got grounded in sunny LA. Luckily I made it out.
My point is, that while it's a natural disaster of sorts, Californian citizens, fire departments, and the State government are well versed in dealing with wild fires.
Besides, you can at least fight a fire after the fact.
How do you fight a Katrina-type flood after the fact?
monsterhunter
10-27-2007, 10:03
Interesting posts in this thread. Without addressing each individual post, I will try to paraphrase a response from a first hand point of view. If Watts and the rest of South Central were burning down, you would have much of the same drama as with Katrina. Folks would be sleeping in Dodgers Stadium and looking for the hand out credit cards.
Most of the hillside communities are upper to middle class and can be very self sustaining. They, or at least most, will leave when told to evacuate, and will even have some items packed up.
The build up of firefighting aircraft happened very quickly here. The biggest problem was where to send them first, because so many fires were erupting at one time.
There will always be drama and controversy portrayed in the media. From my standpoint, everything seemed very fair and the response was fantastic.
phalanx-warrior
10-27-2007, 14:28
Gentlemen, if I may, I’d like to take a few moments and share my first hand experience in the days after Hurricane Katrina, in New Orleans. First, my hat goes off to the men and women fighting the fires in southern California and I would not dare try and diminish their efforts to save life and property---they can have that job, that’s why I’m a cop and not a firefighter!
Up front, my experience with Katrina was first hand, and my experience with the fires has been through mass media outlets, as it was for the first few days after the hurricane hit the Gulf. Once I arrived in Baton Rouge, life got “real” in a hurry. The “slow” response by the local, state and federal government is still grossly over exaggerated. The state police headquarters was so over run with rescue workers, it really was a logistical nightmare. Every conceivable type of government agency was on the ground and had set up camp, with little to no available earth to accept new rescue workers. We were tripping over each other.
As you can imagine, the situation was as fluid as any could be and the command and control folks were overwhelmed. We could attend our 1900 Op-briefs with “marching orders” and by deployment time at 1930 hours we would have literally received 20 different change orders. And, I imagine the effort in So-Call is experiencing the same heartaches. However, the Louisiana state government in its infinite wisdom allowed themselves to lose focus on their mission and made too much time available for Sean Penn’s and Jesse Jackson’s of the world. Yes, I am sad to report that the rescue efforts were sidelined so that Sean Penn could be flown around the greater New Orleans area in a state police helicopter to get a “better respect” of the situation. It is also true that Sean and his security detail would later find themselves in a sinking Zodiac in the lower 9th Ward needing to be rescued…if that isn’t divine intervention, I don’t know what is.
Now, to enter the debate of Katrina v. California Fires which is like night and day. With the fires the major issues are fight the fire, evacuate and place displaced people. There is an overwhelming appearance of compliance with the evacuation in So-Cal with little no civil disobedience. Public health wise, the smoke and ash I would imagine is the greatest concern.
With Katrina, the stories of civil disobedience was grossly under reported and even dismissed as lore. Well, I’m here to tell you that any journalist who reports that the stories of rescue workers being shot at or attacked as untrue is a liar! To add to the confusion, you couldn’t even tell the good guys from the bad. We had good Intel reports of gangsters wearing New Orleans police uniforms that were either stolen from police stations or picked up after coward officers abandoned their duty assignments and fled the city. The area of New Orleans known as Algiers went un-patrolled for days because gang members posing as NOPD convinced early first responders that they were legit. Once it was learned that Algiers was under siege, gun fights between the real police and gangsters were fierce, with the good guys winning.
In other parts of the city, such as the 9th Ward, Navy Spec Warfare guys had to work with police to regain the neighborhood. Drug dealers and thugs were shooting at Coast Guard fire boats trying to extinguish fires in the warehouse district just east of downtown.
No doubt in both disasters there is inconceivable damage to the ecosystem. However, the austere environment that Katrina created in New Orleans is unlike anything I have ever seen. We could smell New Orleans fifty-miles out on our drive in at night from Baton Rouge. The water was filled with crude oil, liquids from cars and boats, dead animals and the sewer system. Two years later, I am convinced that the smell is still in my nasal cavity. Disease was a problem for evacuees and rescue workers alike.
As for the people---well, I wish that my experience with the human element in New Orleans was different. Please don’t get me wrong, we did encounter a hand full of people who were appreciative, but the majority we could not do enough for. I mean, we should have know something was up when my team stopped in Northern Louisiana to gas up and people would thank us for coming to help, but would walk away saying, “Please don’t stay to rebuild that God forsaken city!” New Orleans, as it turns out, is Louisiana’s “Sodom and Gomorrah”. As we encountered people who had been without food and clean water for days, we would hand them bottled water and an MRE only to field a host of complaints about the water being warm…? “Good God, man---it will save your life if you just shut-up and drink it!” [That’s what I wanted to say, but I didn’t]. Droves of people walked past untouched crates full of water and MRE’s that has been airlifted in and dropped all over the city, and would walk right up to news cameras and say nothing was being done for them. I mean, hell, sometimes we could not get into areas of the city because roads were blocked with supplies.
To end on a positive note, I would not have done anything differently in New Orleans. I do not look back and regret for one second going there to help. Fellow Americans were in need, and Americans [along with others] answered the call. Just like in So-Cal, Americans are in need and Americans are answering the call. That’ why I love this country, as I am sure all the men in the forum do, too.
The most dangerous place on Earth is between a mother and her children. America is our mother and the people we serve are her children. I sleep better at night know that there are men and women in this country who fill that gap.
Until next time, God Bless and Be Safe!
-PW