Students Walk Out During Pledge of Allegiance

[sg1987]

I’m all for free thought and speech but perhaps policy and procedure is best left to the ADULTS. These kids need some discipline.

"Colorado Students Walk Out During Pledge, Recite Own Version"


http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,298336,00.html

[nmap]

Not a good trend. Such situations weaken the common bonds between us, and thus are divisive rather than uniting.

[The Reaper]

I recommend an overseas trip to a poor country in Latin America, Asia, or Africa, to live with a local family for a week or two of imersion training.

When they retun, they will be leading the singing of the National Anthem.

As of right now, they do not know how little they know, and how much of what they think they know is just plain wrong.

TR

[Firebeef]

Keep in mind, these antics come from "the People's Republic of Boulder". In the Rocky Mountain News, it was reported that only 12 students walked out and recited the "alternate" or "alternative" pledge, watched by around 50 kids, who were probably just using the walk out to get out of a class.
I'm sure the parents of the dozen kids involved are just swelling with pride and joy that their little revolutionaries are coming of age and will soon join the struggle against the repressive "Man".

Here in Colorado, we don't call it the PRoB for nothin!

[Ret10Echo]

They probably looked like this...

[CPTAUSRET]

Keep in mind, these antics come from "the People's Republic of Boulder". In the Rocky Mountain News, it was reported that only 12 students walked out and recited the "alternate" or "alternative" pledge, watched by around 50 kids, who were probably just using the walk out to get out of a class.
I'm sure the parents of the dozen kids involved are just swelling with pride and joy that their little revolutionaries are coming of age and will soon join the struggle against the repressive "Man".

Here in Colorado, we don't call it the PRoB for nothin!


Concur!

Those attitudes are not given birth in school...They are most likely fostered, and nurtured at home before these kids are placed in a "Lib"erating school environment.

Damn shame!

[Patriot007]

In this era of cultural diversity training in the classrooms we are taught how much better every other society is than our own American society, conveniently leaving out anything negative, especially the failures of socialism. "Tolerance" for anything and everything except conservative values.

Similar to what TR said- None of these students have experienced anything outside of America- I'd say most of them have never left their hometowns and receive their "education" from pseudointellectual Marxist sociology teachers and morons like Kanye West from MTV.

I believe the most important battle for Americans to win stateside is the reclamation of the educational system from treasonous liberals who have entrenched themselves.

[sg1987]

Also, while I believe in religious freedom, I see nothing wrong with things like making English the official language and the Christian religion the base religion of the country (being that it was founded by Christian colonists, founded as a nation by Christian men, on basic Christian values, from an English-speaking country).

I guess you really have departed from your liberal leanings. You sound like a faithful follower of Brother John Birch.:D

[The Reaper]

I guess you really have departed from your liberal leanings. You sound like a faithful follower of Brother John Birch.:D

He belongs to the Antioch Baptist Church, and he ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask his wife.:D

TR

[Ret10Echo]

Then he started saying somethin bout the way I was dressed

[Deadhead 63A1]

Also, while I believe in religious freedom, I see nothing wrong with things like making English the official language and the Christian religion the base religion of the country (being that it was founded by Christian colonists, founded as a nation by Christian men, on basic Christian values, from an English-speaking country).

As it is not to the heart of the topic, I won't address your first point, but as to the second, the Constitution of this great nation specifically prohibits the establishment of an "official" religion. To do so might seem innocent at first, but that is a very, very slippery slope. Also, I don't believe that the founding fathers were quite as Christian as one might think, especially when you consider quotes and passages such as:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." -Benjamin Franklin

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church." -Thomas Paine

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." -Thomas Jefferson

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." -John Adams

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -James Madison

"I have never been a communicant." -George Washington

I don't list these here to offend anyone, merely to encourage that critical thought be given to the widely held notion that the founders of our nation were devoted Christians.

I'll make no judgment on the actions of these students in Colorado beyond saying that if we are to have a Pledge of Allegiance, I wish it would be returned to its original state. I simply believe that freedom OF religion should also extend itself to freedom FROM religion for those who so choose.

To once again quote Thomas Jefferson, a man who like myself believed in limited government, "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

[kgoerz]

He belongs to the Antioch Baptist Church, and he ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask his wife.:D

TR

Isn't this the incident where old Green Teeth got kicked between the legs. Soon after a bunch of Red Necks got chased once around the parking lot. Seems like I read or heard this story somewhere. Took place around Omaha.

[The Reaper]

IMHO, there has been a concerted effort by libs and secular progressives to denigrate the religious nature of the Founding Fathers, such as the extensive use of Jefferson's quote re separation of church and state and the prohibition on an established state church (like the Church of England), versus his separate comments about the importance of religion.

In fact, most of the FF were very religious, so much that they would likely be labeled fundamentalist today.

I believe that we have mistaken the legitimate of the state selecting one religion to follow and endorsing it as the official religion rather than the allowance of all Christian religions should be free to practice as they wish, with tolerance of those as other faiths.

I do not believe that they would endorse the current policy of deliberate efforts to subvert Christianity and to deny Christians the right to practice their faith, while making gross accomodations of other "minority" faiths.

Just my .02, YMMV.

Atricle attached for background reading. Washington does not sound like an unbeliever or a man who was ashamed of his faith to me.

TR

PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE 28 September 2007 Patriot Vol. 07 No. 39

From George Washington to Vicky Imogene Robinson

George Washington was a devoted Episcopalian. While he was not an outspoken evangelical like fellow Founders Benjamin Rush, Roger Sherman and Thomas McKean, he was a devout Christian.

During the Revolutionary Era, General Washington served as a vestryman and had a designated pew at Pohick Church in Mount Vernon, Virginia, which he was instrumental in founding. Weather permitting, he frequently attended Christ Church in Alexandria, ten miles north of Mount Vernon (a two-hour trip by carriage).

According to his family, Washington’s days began and ended with private devotions in his library, and he reserved most Sundays for family only, accepting very few visitors.

George Washington’s adopted daughter, Eleanor Custis Lewis, wrote of his faith, “I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, ‘that they may be seen of men.’ He communed with his God in secret.” (Matthew 6:5-6)

The Episcopal Church, the American branch of the World Anglican Communion, has deep roots in American history. In the Colonial period, it was the official church of Virginia (1609), Massachusetts (1620), New York (1693), Maryland (1702), South Carolina (1706), North Carolina (1730) and Georgia (1758).

The longest continually inhabited church in America is Brutton Parrish, established in 1715 adjacent to William and Mary College in Williamsburg. Revolutionary leaders including Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry attended Brutton when they were convened as members of the Virginia House of Burgesses. The earliest record of an Anglican Book of Common Prayer service on American soil occurred almost 200 years prior to the Revolution (19 June 1579), and was conducted by Sir Frances Drake’s crew.

So, you ask, why the lesson regarding the heritage of the Episcopal Church?

Because it is a regrettable case study of how liberalism has eroded the foundations of our great American heritage. As a fifth-generation Episcopalian, I have protested this erosion with vigor—alas, maybe too little too late.

George Washington wrote that, should we want our liberty secure and freedom to endure, we must “acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, obey his will, be grateful for his benefits, and humbly implore his protection and favors.”

Unfortunately, some 200 years after the American Revolution, most Episcopal Church leaders have abandoned the church’s venerable legacy and forsaken the Almighty’s providence. Leftists in the church endeavor to interpret the Bible eisegetically versus exegetically in order that it comport with their contemporary social agenda rather than its “original intent” —much as liberals interpret the so-called “living Constitution”.

In other words, liberals reject the authority of the Bible, much as they reject the authority of our Constitution.

In 1998, the decennial Lambeth Conference, a gathering of World Anglican Communion leaders representing 70 million Anglicans (the third largest communion in the world after the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches) decreed clearly that homosexuality is “incompatible with Scripture” and rejected “ordaining those involved in same gender unions.”

Then, in 2003, the “enlightened” U.S. bishops rebuffed the World Anglican Communion and codified their rejection of scriptural authority by ordaining Vicky Gene Robinson, a divorced father of two who now resides with his homosexual partner, as Bishop of New Hampshire. In turn, a year later, the World Anglican Communion called on the Episcopal Church to “repent.”

(For a comprehensive exposition on this issue, read “Gender Identity, the Homosexual Agenda and the Christian Response.”)

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, head of the Church of England and primus inter pares or “first among equals” in World Communion standing, then issued a covenant affirming that national churches agree to maintain “biblical standards” of Anglican doctrine—in other words, abide by Scripture—but Williams’s actions have more to do with appeasement than conviction.

Responding to Williams, Vicky Gene Robinson insists, “I think integrity is so important... I would feel better about the Church of England’s stance, its reluctance to support the Episcopal Church in what it has done, if it would at least admit that this is not just an American challenge. If all the gay people stayed away from church on a given Sunday, the Church of England would be close to shut down, between its organists, its clergy, its wardens...”

Earlier this year, World Communion leaders set a 30 September deadline for Episcopalians to atone, or potentially suffer excommunication from the world churches.

This week, the Episcopal House of Bishops conference attempted to reach a compromise, agreeing to “exercise restraint” (whatever that means) in regard to the ordination of homosexual bishops and to disapprove of “any public rites of blessing of same-sex unions,” explaining they did so “with the hope of mending the tear in the fabric” of the communion.

Of course, the “tear” is not in the “fabric” of the communion but in the interpretation of God’s Word.

Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, head of the Episcopal Church, offered this bit of accession: “We all hope that our sacrificial actions and our united actions at this meeting once again demonstrate to the wider communion that we treasure our membership and we treasure the other members of the Anglican community.” She added, “I have no doubt that the General Convention [in 2009] will revisit these issues.”

Nonetheless, the decennial Lambeth Conference next July may pre-empt any highbrow pontifications by Episcopalians in 2009. As David Phillips of the Church Society notes, “The problem is that, at heart, [Schori’s statement] changes nothing. Most of these bishops are still committed to teach things that are contrary to Scripture.”

As it stands now, the Episcopal Church may have bought itself some time, but it is no small irony that this Church, which prides itself as being a protagonist of the “social gospel movement” (particularly in regards to racial equality), is now at odds with mostly black bishops and archbishops from African nations. The prevailing, albeit unspoken, position of many American bishops is that these poor black souls are just not sufficiently educated or sophisticated enough to discern “the truth” in such matters.

George Washington wrote, “The blessed Religion revealed in the word of God will remain an eternal and awful monument to prove that the best Institution may be abused by human depravity; and that they may even, in some instances be made subservient to the vilest purposes.”

Such is the degeneracy within the once august institution of the Episcopal Church. Membership has declined to about 2.3 million nationally—far smaller than other mainstream Christian denominations.

Perhaps such is also the plight of a church born out of wedlock. In 1534, when the Roman Catholic Church would not grant Henry VIII an annulment from his 25-year marriage to Catherine of Aragon, Henry broke with Rome and instituted the Church of England—which granted his divorce.

[CSB]

The matter was settled by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1943, and that was in the middle of World War II. You can't very well claim liberal bias from that Court/era.

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

Jehovah's Witnesses led the objection, since the Pledge literally violates the
1st Commandment, (the part about "thou shalt not have any other gods ... nor bow down before them or worship them ...").

The words of the Pledge commence: "I pledge allegiance to THE FLAG [physical object] OF THE UNITED STATES, and to the the Nation ..."

In other words, there is no legal difference between:

1 - "Class, place you hand over your heart and pledge allegiance to the FLAG"

and

2 - "Class, get on your knees and bow down before the Golden Calf"

Having said that, I agree that the kids were probably being smartasses.

[MAB32]

Maybe it is now befitting to read the below verse out loud maybe twice?

[Deadhead 63A1]

IMHO, there has been a concerted effort by libs and secular progressives to denigrate the religious nature of the Founding Fathers, such as the extensive use of Jefferson's quote re separation of church and state and the prohibition on an established state church (like the Church of England), versus his separate comments about the importance of religion...

In fact, most of the FF were very religious, so much that they would likely be labeled fundamentalist today.

I believe that we have mistaken the legitimate of the state selecting one religion to follow and endorsing it as the official religion rather than the allowance of all Christian religions should be free to practice as they wish, with tolerance of those as other faiths.

I do not believe that they would endorse the current policy of deliberate efforts to subvert Christianity and to deny Christians the right to practice their faith, while making gross accomodations of other "minority" faiths.

Just my .02, YMMV.

IMHO there has been a concerted effort by the Conservative Christian movement to profess that morality can come only from religious belief. I belive this to be dead wrong and that there have been many good-hearted, right-minded men and women throughout history who did not hold to any faith in God.

Of course one of the many things that make our country great is the ability to "agree to disagree" without resorting to violence. I respect your opinion just as I respect the opinion of just about anyone who puts rational thought into that which they voice. I also respect the right granted by the supreme law of this land of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists, and everyone else to belive whatever they choose to believe and worship however they choose to worship so long as doing so does not inhibit the freedom of others to do the same.

FWIW, I'm far from liberal. I try to eschew labels, but I would consider my political beliefs as close to libertarianism as anything else.

the kids were probably being smartasses.

You, sir, are most likely correct.

[The Reaper]

IMHO there has been a concerted effort by the Conservative Christian movement to profess that morality can come only from religious belief. I belive this to be dead wrong and that there have been many good-hearted, right-minded men and women throughout history who did not hold to any faith in God.

Of course one of the many things that make our country great is the ability to "agree to disagree" without resorting to violence. I respect your opinion just as I respect the opinion of just about anyone who puts rational thought into that which they voice. I also respect the right granted by the supreme law of this land of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists, and everyone else to belive whatever they choose to believe and worship however they choose to worship so long as doing so does not inhibit the freedom of others to do the same.

FWIW, I'm far from liberal. I try to eschew labels, but I would consider my political beliefs as close to libertarianism as anything else.

In a utopian society, your point may be true, but believe or not, at least Christianity and Judaism provide a set of generally accepted beliefs and a moral compass for their members. Admittedly, many do stray, but the religions provide for redemption of those who have transgressed. I see far too many alleged atheists or agnostics who use their secular views as an excuse for not providing an ethical framework for their kids, or worse yet, teaching them to take advantage of those who do.

Your right to worship, be it in a church pew on Sunday, or dancing naked under the full moon, ends at my property line. Your belief that sitting there entitles you to eternal life and access heaven is fine by me. If your religion dictates that you must force me to convert or kill me, then I should have the right to take preemptive action on your declared threat. It does not give you the right to a driver's license with no photo. You must, to some degree, conform to the wishes of the society that you wish to operate in. On the other hand, the fact that your group is Christian should not make you ineligible for access to public facilites, unless your conduct there violates social norms. If you want to pray during school, or take a nap during that period, as long as you are not disruptive, that is your business. You want to wear a burka to the Wal-Mart, be prepared if I point and laugh at you.

I would respectfully submit that far more has been accomplished by men and women of faith (correct or not) than by non-believers, but that is another topic.

TR

[Deadhead 63A1]

I see far too many alleged atheists or agnostics who use their secular views as an excuse for not providing an ethical framework for their kids, or worse yet, teaching them to take advantage of those who do.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if my wife and I are ever able to have children, that will not be us. I have never been one to use anything as an excuse for my actions or inactions and do not intend to do so when it comes to my children. My lack of faith does not translate to a lack of understanding right and wrong. I am no moral relativist and I do not intend for my children to be that way.

Your right to worship, be it in a church pew on Sunday, or dancing naked under the full moon, ends at my property line. Your belief that sitting there entitles you to eternal life and access heaven is fine by me. If your religion dictates that you must force me to convert or kill me, then I should have the right to take preemptive action on your declared threat. It does not give you the right to a driver's license with no photo. You must, to some degree, conform to the wishes of the society that you wish to operate in. On the other hand, the fact that your group is Christian should not make you ineligible for access to public facilites, unless your conduct there violates social norms. If you want to pray during school, or take a nap during that period, as long as you are not disruptive, that is your business. You want to wear a burka to the Wal-Mart, be prepared if I point and laugh at you.

We are in total agreement on all of the above and I appreciate your wit :)

[tom kelly]

Extremist on both the right and the left of the political spectrum are attempting to hijack religious institutions to further their goals of world domination.Please read "Aptitude for Destruction" Volume 2: Case Studies of Organizational Learning in Five Terrorist Groups. By Brian A. Jackson,John C. Baker,Kim Cragin,John Parachini.Horacio R. Trujillo and Peter Chalk. Published 2005 by the Rand Corporation....Regards,tom kelly

[3SoldierDad]

I recommend an overseas trip to a poor country in Latin America, Asia, or Africa, to live with a local family for a week or two of imersion training.

When they retun, they will be leading the singing of the National Anthem.

As of right now, they do not know how little they know, and how much of what they think they know is just plain wrong.

TR


Yep, darn right.

I have four sons. I have one 17 year old daughter - my baby-doll Nellie. Unlike any of my sons she loves to sass her Old-Man - My sons were afraid of me; my daughter simply knows how to push me - Maybe some of you here can relate. I don't mind a "tense exchange" with my kids where reason and respect rule the conversation. I'm 48 and I'm not sure what's going on with this generation. They really seem to have a loathing for middle-aged, conservative, professional men (ever hear of misandry? - contempt for men). When she was done "letting fly her tirade" I told her much of her insight was excellent, but her general lack of respect made her message generally unacceptable.

She stormed off and emailed me a Radiohead song from her bedroom down to my den. It was a great song and its object was the scorn to be heaped upon a person that was missing the point. Oh, I got the point all right - just didn't like it being delivered with exploding spittle and high decibel expletives. I guess she was too young to remember Marshall McLuhan and that - the media was the message - stuff.

After I got done reading her Radiohead song and thinking about it and thanking her for being so honest and relating my appreciation for her critique of her father (funny thing - her brothers would have been on the way to the hospital...). I told her, however, that her general disrespect for authority (which I've observed for traffic laws, school teachers, her boss at the coffee shop where she works and yes her parents) could one day be deadly.

After I got her Radiohead song and drank in its import, I composed a couple of ditties of my own for my home's Princess Nellie...


Angry youths and vultures

Birdy, birdy – pick’en eyes, pick’en eyes. Slurping goo...
Why foul winged one do you eat so ravenously?
Eat so ravenously on the old hagged corpse?
Through blood stained beak it bends its brow to speak
"Wrinkled and old she is this frame, but the lusty eyes are of the young.
Bold and loathing they did see.
Now in my belly they feed me.

Let her curse - but, careful now...

King David said, “If God has told him to curse, let him curse me – Perhaps, God will see my plight and have mercy on me.”

Be careful She Shimei - Abishai won’t take that pretty head this day.
You are in nature’s work, She Shimei - but He who makes man’s shoulders may.

You've been enlisted in a good service She Shimei - dark angels guide Thee – Thank You, Dear.

But, it is a dark service O' Pretty Head
One where I would fear to tread.

Thank you She Shimei
Careful She Shimei


I fear this young generation - so wise, so sure, so ready to point - may not go to their graves in a peaceable way... I so hope I'm wrong.


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck


.

[The Reaper]

In a perfect world, a country can exist as a conglomeration of all cultures and religions with no national beliefs, but in reality, if the country has no national identity, it will eventually disappear I believe, and if I had to choose a particular religion to base the primary values directing the country, it would be Christianity, not Buddhism, Islamic fascism, environmentalism, socialism, communism, etc...

I think you have touched on an important point here.

For many people today, their religion is actually their politics, regardless of what they may call themselves.

Environmentalists, socialists, liberals, entitlement leeches, etc. are far more attuned to their own political beliefs, and accept the value systems of them, than to their religion.

Many of the haters who say terrible things about the POTUS call themselves Christians, but do not act as such.

The one religion which seems to transcend politics and supplant political beliefs is Islam. You rarely hear a Muslim call for democracy, or socialism. They want a caliphate, and Sharia law, in a theocratic system of government. Iran is an excellent example of this.

To all those who take advantage of the freedoms this country was founded on, but who spew hate for the soldier, and love for the enemy, I will say that I almost hope I survive long enough to see what happens to them if this country ever falls to the Islamofascists.

At least there won't be any more gays here either, or smokers, or drinkers, or drug abusers, or adulterers, or welfare, and the divorce lawyers will all be out of business.

And the illegals will be gone pretty quickly as well, once they see how things are being run here.

Interesting.

TR

[Plutarch]

"Where does morality come from? What can cause humans to assume the ethical from the outset? If morality can be created and maintained independently of religion, if it is prior to religion, then the decline of religion need not be a matter of overwhelming social concern; religion becomes a matter of individual salvation after death, of overwhelming importance to the individual but of little social concern. Yet it is observable that religion and morality have declined together"

- Robert H. Bork, Slouching Towards Gomorrah

[HOLLiS]

"Where does morality come from? What can cause humans to assume the ethical from the outset? If morality can be created and maintained independently of religion, if it is prior to religion, then the decline of religion need not be a matter of overwhelming social concern; religion becomes a matter of individual salvation after death, of overwhelming importance to the individual but of little social concern. Yet it is observable that religion and morality have declined together"

- Robert H. Bork, Slouching Towards Gomorrah

As I sat in a Philosophy class long ago, the prof asked the class, "What is the difference in religion and philosophy?" Much to the chagrin of most of the class, he stated, "None."

[Sdiver]

Can we just Nuke the PRoB ??

I mean, is anyone REALLY gonna miss it ??? :rolleyes: :munchin