View Full Version : 417
longrange1947
09-18-2007, 19:37
Just saw two weapons that beats the shit out of both the 417 and the 416.
More to follow. :munchin
Kyobanim
09-18-2007, 20:04
Now that's just wrong, making a post like that. :(
Now that's just wrong, making a post like that. :(
2X here too, now how am I going to get any sleep?
The Reaper
09-18-2007, 20:28
SCAR-L and SCAR-H?
TR
brianksain
09-18-2007, 21:08
This from a man that shoots a 107 on his hind feet ... he's crazy:p
longrange1947
09-19-2007, 13:22
Now that SCAR has been brought to the table, never mind. :D
longrange1947
09-19-2007, 19:32
They are about to bring out one heck of a 308 piston driven rifle that is actually quite accurate and seems to be more durable than most. We fired a pre-production model that was very nice. They noted a number of changes that would probably enhance the weapon and kill some of the problems with the SR and other similar models. Can't say what until they release it but htye go into production in about 30 days.
It is nice that the weapon has a shell deflector, and forward assist mechanism. We zeroed and grouped with and without the suppressor and heated the weapon to see zero shift and if the groups opened up. All worked well and out performed the SR by a long shot. Can not vouch that it will beat the 417 but since the 417 has only been produced in a battle rifle configuration then I would say it probably beat it's pants off as well. I was not particularly impressed with the suppressor but that is a difficult piece of machinery regardless of who makes it.
The 5.56 version probably will not go up for civie sale due to its make up but it is nice, accurate and lighter than the 416. 5.56 version we shot is not on the web site but the 308 civie version is.
Will let you guys know more later as we get more info on it.
Sorry for the tease but I actually forgot the name of the system when I posted last night and then brain cramped this morning and forgot to post the name again.
Sorry Kyobanim, that was just wrong. :D
Kyobanim
09-19-2007, 20:09
Sorry Kyobanim, that was just wrong.
That's OK, we'll be happy with pictures; cause you know how the saying goes . . .
NousDefionsDoc
09-19-2007, 20:14
Pulling the wings off the fly one at a time...
The Old Guy
09-20-2007, 09:09
The 5.56 version probably will not go up for civie sale due to its make up but it is nice, accurate and lighter than the 416. 5.56 version we shot is not on the web site but the 308 civie version is.
Sorry for the tease but I actually forgot the name of the system when I posted last night and then brain cramped this morning and forgot to post the name again.
I have looked for a quality long gun in a 7.62 configuration for a long time and I almost pulled the trigger on a SOCOM16 but held off. Not a true 5.56 fan.
Please share the manufacture with us.
OG, it was in the post title - Leitner-Wise.
5POINT56
09-20-2007, 09:38
OG, it was in the post title - Leitner-Wise.
Leitner-Wise is now known as LWRC (Land Warfare Resources Corporation)
It's got entirely new management in addition to its new name. This isn't a matter of having new business cards printed for the new name...their entire approach and philospohy has changed as well.
In a nutshell this is the deal with the new management......
Paul Leitner-Wise (thus the original company name) fabricated Special Forces trials of his weapons, and created a bunch of BS. He was ousted from the company he founded by new investor/owners. The company continues on, ironically with a terrifically engineered AR15 series of rifles. (Contrary to a post above, 5.56 rifles are their bread and butter...not .308)
Their piston 5.56 rifles are reputedly outstanding....and considered by many experienced with them to be every bit as good as 416's and a fraction of the price...though still expensive compared to standard DI AR's.
Talon Arms distrubutes for LWRC and below is a photo of one of the LWRC 10.5" 5.56 uppers.
5POINT56
09-20-2007, 09:41
The 5.56 version probably will not go up for civie sale due to its make up....
(Assuming you were actually reporting on a LWRC....)
They are not only going to be for civi sale...they already are. Both complete rifles as well as complete uppers.
Currently they have four different models of 5.56 rifles available.
Check out their web page.
http://www.lwrifles.com/
The Reaper
09-20-2007, 12:48
(Assuming you were actually reporting on a LWRC....)
They are not only going to be for civi sale...they already are. Both complete rifles as well as complete uppers.
Currently they have four different models of 5.56 rifles available.
Check out their web page.
http://www.lwrifles.com/
I would not call LR a liar.
He was likely reporting what he had been told by the rep.
TR
Leitner-Wise is now known as LWRC (Land Warfare Resources Corporation)
It's got entirely new management in addition to its new name. This isn't a matter of having new business cards printed for the new name...their entire approach and philospohy has changed as well.
In a nutshell this is the deal with the new management......
Paul Leitner-Wise (thus the original company name) fabricated Special Forces trials of his weapons, and created a bunch of BS. He was ousted from the company he founded by new investor/owners. The company continues on, ironically with a terrifically engineered AR15 series of rifles. (Contrary to a post above, 5.56 rifles are their bread and butter...not .308)
Their piston 5.56 rifles are reputedly outstanding....and considered by many experienced with them to be every bit as good as 416's and a fraction of the price...though still expensive compared to standard DI AR's.
Talon Arms distrubutes for LWRC and below is a photo of one of the LWRC 10.5" 5.56 uppers.
Sure sounds like a lot of hearsay.
I guess you didn't hear but most SF'ers on this board hate hearsay and rumor especially from those outside of the industry.
5POINT56 you are now on thin ice.
Save your rumors and hearsay for other boards, do I make myself clear?
Now write this five hundred times:
I will never again post rumor or hearsay on Professionalsoldiers.com.
FRED
NousDefionsDoc
09-20-2007, 14:20
Well said Fred. Long time no see buddy.
5POINT56
09-20-2007, 14:28
I would not call LR a liar.
TR
I wouldn't and didn't.
5POINT56
09-20-2007, 14:38
Sure sounds like a lot of hearsay.
I guess you didn't hear but most SF'ers on this board hate hearsay and rumor especially from those outside of the industry.
5POINT56 you are now on thin ice.
Save your rumors and hearsay for other boards, do I make myself clear?
Now write this five hundred times:
I will never again post rumor or hearsay on Professionalsoldiers.com.
FRED
Regardless of "what it may sound like", what I posted are facts....not rumor. A call to the company would easily verify this. Whether or not you choose to do that is up to you....but what I posted are facts. Why that would put anyone on "thin ice" is beyond me.
And I will qualify what I posted further by telling you that I had a conversation at SHOT in Jan of this year with reps from LWRC, who personally stated the same.
If you have further questions regarding my post I'd be happy to answer them in a respectful manner. I would imagine SFers on this site like up to date, relevant & accurate information and that is exactly what I posted. Why you or anyone else would immediately assume otherwise is beyond me...this is readily available information.
http:com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1030 (view.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1030")
eta: We're actually glad to hear from sources of ours that LWRC has made serious efforts to get its act together--and appears to be succeeding in that regard--since the company was purchased in a "management buyout" and reorganization in January, 2006, and Pat Bryan took over as chairman/CEO. In the preceding years, Paul Leitner-Wise had been in control of operations, and, during those years, DefenseReview's experiences with the company had not been positive, at all.
In addition .....
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2007/07/lwrc-piston-rif.html
(See link for full article)
UPDATE: Apparently Paul Leitner-Wise was ousted from LWRC after it was determined he was posting negative comments about competitors' firearms and false excuses for LWRC delivery delays under a pseudonym on firearms boards, as semi-documented in this HKPRO forum thread (read down to find the interchange). Thanks to CH77 for alerting us to this in a comment.
VaDinger: This got out because one AR15.com staff member happened to check IP addresses on the accounts. Then others who had communicated with both Paul L-W and his alter ego Hipfiredgun & others checked into it also. They both came up with the same answer. They were the same person or at the very least posting from the exact same computer.
MisterJG (presumably Jesse Gomez – Vice President, Design and Engineering): "I clearly stated that a link to thread on ar15.com was brought to my attention, I then did some additional research and presented the facts to the CEO. We then contacted AR15 management to provide us with their findings, that along with supporting facts found on PLW's harddrive was cause to end employment. AR15 management worked with us to get to the bottom of what happened."
Bill Alexander of Alexander Arms expressed his disgust at the tactics on his 6.5 Grendal forum:
... many here, myself included, are a little high strung about the antics of Paul Lietner-Wise and his crew. I know that they are now running about claiming misrepresentation by a single individual, but I do not understand how he could have used everyones accounts without anyone looking at the internet and saying "hey I did not write this, WTF is going on".
Kurts Kustom Firearms has a dog in the fight as well. Further reading can be found here... ( http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/board/board_topic/11341/176995.htm )
As stated before, LWRC's new management runs a top notch operation and produces exceptional weapons. In the future, asking me questions ahead of accusing me would be appreciated. My integrity is of no less value than yours.
incommin
09-20-2007, 14:42
Who's got the bucket of water????
Jim
The Reaper
09-20-2007, 16:09
(Assuming you were actually reporting on a LWRC....)
I would not call LR a liar.
I wouldn't and didn't.
Okay, let me break it down for you.
This is an SF owned and operated web site. Not yours. You are a registered guest, with no SF service that I am aware of.
You need to check how you are coming across. Several of us read "Assuming you actually were reporting on a LWRC" as a challenge to LR's statement that he was T&Eing that very same weapon. Trust me. If he reports here that he rode on a UFO yesterday, I will be in line to catch a ride myself the next day. He has been there and done that, many times over, and I would take his word as Gospel.
If you feel that you have additional information to add, or to correct what you believe to be incorrect information, especially from a QP, you need to do so in a respectful manner. I do not think that you did, and that is enough for me to tell you to tighten up your shot group. Period.
Your info may be correct. It may be valuable to some here. Nevertheless, your tone is inappropriate.
Correct it, or find somewhere else to post.
Is that clear enough for you?
TR
Okay, let me break it down for you.
This is an SF owned and operated web site. Not yours. You are a registered guest.
You need to check how you are coming across. Several of us read "Assuming you actually were reporting on a LWRC" as a challenge to LR's statement that he was T&Eing that very same weapon. Trust me. If he reports here that he rode on a UFO yesterday, I will be in line to catch a ride myself the next day. He has been there and done that, many times over, and I would take his word as Gospel.
If you feel that you have additional information to add, or to correct what you believe to be incorrect information, especially from a QP, you need to do so in a respectful manner. I do not think that you did, and that is enough for me to tell you to tighten up your shot group. Period.
Your info may be correct. It may be valuable to some here. Nevertheless, your tone is inappropriate.
Correct it, or find somewhere else to post.
Is that clear enough for you?
TR
There has to be a logical answer. Myself and others before me, attempted to stump LR , or come up with an idea that wasn't already his. Not even close. I still hear that voice.
"Let me tell you why your idea will fail miserably, first thing is you............"
5POINT56
09-20-2007, 19:29
Okay, let me break it down for you.
This is an SF owned and operated web site. Not yours. You are a registered guest, with no SF service that I am aware of.
You need to check how you are coming across. Several of us read "Assuming you actually were reporting on a LWRC" as a challenge to LR's statement that he was T&Eing that very same weapon. Trust me. If he reports here that he rode on a UFO yesterday, I will be in line to catch a ride myself the next day. He has been there and done that, many times over, and I would take his word as Gospel.
If you feel that you have additional information to add, or to correct what you believe to be incorrect information, especially from a QP, you need to do so in a respectful manner. I do not think that you did, and that is enough for me to tell you to tighten up your shot group. Period.
Your info may be correct. It may be valuable to some here. Nevertheless, your tone is inappropriate.
Correct it, or find somewhere else to post.
Is that clear enough for you?
TR
My apologies for the misunderstanding. I would never accuse anyone of being a liar without very good reason and that was by no means my intent.
The "assuming you're actually reporting on a LWRC" was said because there was a little ambiguity in his post as to the company. Maybe I misread it, maybe it was crystal clear. I simply wanted to illustrate that the comments that I was going to post were LWRC in nature and in the event the rifle in question was in fact from them, my comments would be based on that specifically, as I couldn't speak for the 416 or other piston systems out there.
I have posted absolutely nothing disrespectful on this board in any manner. If you interpreted what I wrote that way, I hope this clears that up. It was not my intent in any way. My very presence here is based out of respect for your profession....not some need to challenge it or get under anyones skin. I saw information that wasn't 100% correct and I contributed in order to inform, not to annoy.
I have little doubt LR is as good as they come...he's spoken very highly of here and he certainly has my most humble respect and appreciation...as do the rest of the QP's here.
This is not a matter of disrespect, because I have nothing but respect for the men of this board. This is not about inaccurate information/lies/rumor/hearsay...as what I posted were relevant facts to this discussion. This is apparently a matter of tone...and if my writing came across to you or anyone else here that way, I truly apologize.
I simply wanted to offer what little contribution I can to this site and I saw a chance to share what I know. It is your board, and my intent was never to be a burden in any manner here...quite the contrary. I'll step back and watch from the sidelines for a while....and again, my apologies.
longrange1947
09-20-2007, 21:06
5point56 - I can most assuredly tell you that they were reps from LWRC and the weapons were in fact LWRC weapons. When I get a full course press for a sales pitch, I pay attention to who is selling. Not sure what your comment concerning "Assuming you were actually reporting on a LWRC" meant but, I am not a moron and do happen to check on weapons from time to time. I do know that they sell civilian versions BUT not THIS version.
The 5.56 I played with is not on their web site at www.lwrifles.com and is presently still in development. The .308 version is talked about in their Forums section but not advertised as an item for sale due to it being preproduction. Yes 5.56 is their bread and butter but they are expanding and looking for mil contracts.
Next time you wish to inform, try informing without the attitude and a self righteous:
" They are not only going to be for civi sale...they already are. Both complete rifles as well as complete uppers.
Currently they have four different models of 5.56 rifles available.
Check out their web page."
Been there and checked it out long before my post. Was aware of the manufacturer and the rumors long before my post. We actually discussed this during my visit with the reps. Imagine that!
Yes, your attitude, whether you meant it or not, pissed me and others off. This is a military site and I usually report on military arms, not civilian. For this post's topic I could care whether they sold 100 different civilian versions.
Nuff said!
Well guys another class graduates tomorrow and I am pooped! We have instructor training next week and then another course begins that next Monday and runs to Thanksgiving. Going to play with the new range on 37 we have and see if I can trick some more instructors with new exercises! At least I get Thanksgiving off. :D
brianksain
09-21-2007, 15:52
I once called LR to ask about some something or another he had ... that I needed ... and he sat the phone down and went to look for it but couldn't find it in the office.
Dear Lord I do not want to ever be on the other end of the ass eating he gave whatever it was he was looking for and could not find.
But if he tells me to go after Moby Dick in a rowboat ... I'm bringing my tartar sauce.
But if he tells me to go after Moby Dick in a rowboat ... I'm bringing tartar sauce.
I can honestly say that I echo this sentiment towards anyone with the "Quiet Professional" title.
Team Sergeant
09-21-2007, 16:23
Regardless of "what it may sound like", what I posted are facts....not rumor. A call to the company would easily verify this. Whether or not you choose to do that is up to you....but what I posted are facts. Why that would put anyone on "thin ice" is beyond me.
And I will qualify what I posted further by telling you that I had a conversation at SHOT in Jan of this year with reps from LWRC, who personally stated the same.
If you have further questions regarding my post I'd be happy to answer them in a respectful manner. I would imagine SFers on this site like up to date, relevant & accurate information and that is exactly what I posted. Why you or anyone else would immediately assume otherwise is beyond me...this is readily available information.
http://wreview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1030 (.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1030")
eta:
In addition .....
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2007/07/lwrc-piston-rif.html
(See link for full article)
Kurts Kustom Firearms has a dog in the fight as well. Further reading can be found here... ( http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/board/board_topic/11341/176995.htm )
As stated before, LWRC's new management runs a top notch operation and produces exceptional weapons. In the future, asking me questions ahead of accusing me would be appreciated. My integrity is of no less value than yours.
Gosh, you're quoting defensereview.com, I guess you know your shit. You've also managed to post quotes from other unknown websites, of which I can only assume you believe what they have written are indeed facts.
Here’s a fact, you’ve no idea to whom you are speaking to when you addressed longrange1947 in your post.
Another fact, many on this board give advice to the weapons industry, not the other way around.
You managed to piss off every SF soldier reading your moronic posts and the only thing more stupid than your posts is citing defensereview.com as a credible reference. Here’s your koolaid.
Your attitude is as deficient as your internet references.
You are now gone, banned. Please feel free to take your bad self over to defensereview.com and tell david crane the Team Sergeant sent you. (Fact, he knows who I am.) You may want to brush up on that situational awareness before you log back onto this bulletin board as it’s quite apparent you never read the rules of our board.
Team Sergeant
By the way, do you wear dragonskin? Nevermind.
Let me close the loop on this, LongRange1947 knows his poop, nuff said.
My brother was one of the reps he met with, care to argue further??
Anyway to sqaush anymore internet rumors that run rampant, PLW (Paul Leitner-Wise) was a $hithead, bottom line and is gone. The current management is on top of their game and have it together. My brother is no longer the national sales rep, but is the production manager.
LR1947 is correct that the civilian version of this platform is not available, this platform is not available. The rifle that is available that is sometimes confused is the DMR, which closely mimics the capabilities of the SABR.
LongRange: glad to hear you liked it. Talked to my brother yesterday about your visit and he says he wants to come and pick your brain some. :D
To be honest, I'd like to come out to Range XX to see and learn what I could, but I'd guess that I'd need a bigger tab than what I have and a school slot from my 3 shop to do that. ;)
Folks, good things are coming out of this company. They are dedicated to providing the warfighter equipment if they can and we (myself and some in my direct command) are trying to get T&E guns in the hands of you QP's to play with at home, and down range if you are so inclined. Our Group CIF Co has a few and you can get the word directly from the source of what they like and don't like. We are doing the same with thick skin ready if needed. We are focused on LE/Mil for obvious financial reasons, but still have a Civilian sales program that is going to be better in the coming months.
Shameless plug is now over.
Sorry for the delay, been doing PLF's this week, can't wait for the 250ft tower and the plane ride out to the DZ. :lifter
brianksain
09-22-2007, 13:10
Where weapons procurement is concerned ... it kind of depends on who saddled your horse whether LE guys are considered civvie or as a ride along with the military folk as far as actually getting the guns in our hands go.
These going to be available for LE Individual Officer purchase?
Was contemplating a .308 semi- for LE sniper work here in the ghetto.
A look at SHOT SHOW maybe?
I am active LE and an FFL ... whoopty do ... but will hold off on the build I had planned if something good is coming down the road that I can actually purchase without having to have it department owned.
Where weapons procurement is concerned ....
Brian
PM Sent
NousDefionsDoc
09-22-2007, 21:46
Can I have it?
Can I have it?
Of course Sneaky, you'll have to wait for production to meet demand and purchase for personal use. :D
Or you could get the company to pick one up. As far as fellas in your line of work and AO in general I'm going to refer you to the Sales Reps on that. Yours is finicky due to the additional distance one of these will travel to get to you and location of delivery. We do have them in the sandbox, but they have been procured through official channels, those that were personal were pushed through the CoC for approval and are currently in use.
Check your PM
During some recent travel, had the chance to shoot the HK417 at day ( 100-500 meters ) and at night ( 300 meters )
Obviously the same build quality as the little brother. This was range conditions, but saw no functioning issues on the several weapons being fired, either non-suppressed or suppressed.
We should be getting ours in a few weeks.
So, I believe the other companies offering piston operated 5.56mm and 7.62mm weapons do need to bring out their best game to compete with the HK weapons.
borebrush
09-27-2007, 18:20
I've gotten to finger bang that SABR a bit while in the shop, and later pull the trigger a few times. It's very cool. I'd suggest using a can if you go with the 12" upper though.
More that likely it will be at SHOT.
Tuuka, I've handled and shot both the LW and 416. I wouldn't sweat carrying either (and I really dont like HK). Both are great weapons. What appeals to me, or just makes more sense, is the LW with 80% parts commonality, lower sight height and just sitting there, it doesn't look space gun'ish. JBours brother assembled a rifle right in front of me, and said "here you go." He didn't lube it, neither did I, and the following days I ran 1200 rds through it. The only stoppages were mag related.
The SABR is a hoss sniper weapon.
Alrighty fellas (and interested gals).
I've got a crapload of pictures of the new rifle in both the Counter Sniper and Assaulter lengths.
Bear in mind the titles to these pictures are a bit corny, but they don't have a media department. :D
Enjoy!!
All pictures posted are granted to ProfessionalSoldiers.com for internal website use only. Any re-creation, changes, or misuse is strictly prohibited. Please comply or the beatings will continue.
longrange1947
10-28-2007, 19:25
I see they did change the charging handle. Will hitting it bump the bolt out of battery? Never liked charging handles on the left side because of that problem.
I do see they use a Mark LaRue mount, good decision.
I see they did change the charging handle. .........
I'll call Darren or Jesse (lead designer) tomorrow if you'd like.
Darren's most immediate reply was to another persons question
Q: "Just out of curiousity, has the forward assist been removed from the SABR design? If so, will it be an option in the future?........"
A: "No, the non-reciprocating charging handle has a forward assist built in. Your carrier is not locked, you retract the cocking handle, push in on the knob and push forward."
longrange1947
10-29-2007, 20:00
No, the model I played with had a different charging handle and they said they were changing it to what is shown in your pics.
Only question is when will they let me play with it again? :munchin
Next, when can I get my own? :)