View Full Version : SEALs called Special Forces?
cinsity_rec
09-03-2007, 16:42
While reading The Lone Survivor, I noticed the Author(s) referred to SEALs as Navy "Special Forces" over and over. Normally I would figure that the author just did not know the difference between Special Operations and Special Forces, but one of the authors is a SEAL. Is this normal for SEALs to call themselves Special Forces or is it just unique to this book?
Kyobanim
09-03-2007, 17:10
I believe that the use of the search button is in order.
cinsity_rec
09-03-2007, 17:51
I did searches before I posted the question.
I understand that in the US Military the term Special Forces is used to ID US Army Special Forces, known to most civilians as Green Berets. PJ's, Rangers, SEALs etc fall under the umbrella of Special Operations Forces...that is my understanding. In the book, written by a SEAL, the SEALs are called Special Forces. The only time I have heard SEALs called Special Forces versus Special Operations or Special Operations Forces was by civilians.
Just seems unusual for SEALs to call themselves Special Forces as it is done in this book written by a SEAL.
I did searches before I posted the question.
I understand that in the US Military the term Special Forces is used to ID US Army Special Forces, known to most civilians as Green Berets.
cin,
If I may offer a tip that has been offered to me...read more of the threads, old and new, on this site. It will at least offer insight into your question...
HTH,
Holly
The only time I have heard SEALs called Special Forces versus Special Operations or Special Operations Forces was by civilians..Do a search on Patrick Robinson in relations to the book...
Stay safe.
NousDefionsDoc
09-03-2007, 19:38
SEALs called Special Forces?
They wish...
:cool:
NousDefionsDoc
09-03-2007, 19:46
Do a search on Patrick Robinson in relations to the book...
Stay safe.
He's a Brit isn't he? They call all theirs "special forces". Makes me wonder if Luttrell proofed the book before it was published.
Team Sergeant
09-03-2007, 20:00
I understand that in the US Military the term Special Forces is used to ID US Army Special Forces, known to most civilians as Green Berets. PJ's, Rangers, SEALs etc fall under the umbrella of Special Operations Forces...that is my understanding. In the book, written by a SEAL, the SEALs are called Special Forces. The only time I have heard SEALs called Special Forces versus Special Operations or Special Operations Forces was by civilians.
Just seems unusual for SEALs to call themselves Special Forces as it is done in this book written by a SEAL.
You are correct, Special Forces, Rangers and SEALs are considered SOF. There is only one "Special Forces" in the US military.
Makes me wonder if Luttrell proofed the book before it was published.
NousDefionsDoc probably has the best guess on the issue.
TS
Radar Rider
09-03-2007, 20:01
In more than one instance in the book, Luttrell refers to SEALS as U.S. Special Forces, and/or USSF. Perhaps his ghostwriter was incorrect.
He's a Brit isn't he?I haven't found anything too indicate that he served in US SOF hence; his referral to the SEALs as SF.
Makes me wonder if Luttrell proofed the book before it was published.I wouldn't expect Luttrell to catch every miss-quote in the book. Re-living it and putting it on paper has got to be a nightmare...
Stay safe.
82ndtrooper
09-03-2007, 20:55
Seems fairly common these days with the GWOT and large scale use of all the components/assets under the umbrella of USSOCOM.
I cant imagine a SEAL referring to his unit as "Special Forces" but rather a correct distinction to "Naval Special Warfare/SEALs" assigned to JSOC, and conducting ground operations, and Maritime operations under the control of JSOC, CENTCOM, and USSOCOM.
I do not believe that we can expect every single civillian to understand the true distinctions between U.S Army Special Forces, Rangers, SEALs, Marsoc Det 1, 160th SOAR etc. However, on this board you must understand the correct usage of the terms. We look for perfection on this board, as per Team Sergeants instuctions at the top of this page. (Required reading before posting)
Hollywood has glamorized every single SOF unit in way or the other. To the unknowing, their has never really been anything to differenciate the differences, the capabilities, the mission templates, strengths and weaknesses, etc.
Any SEAL worth his salt will never use the term "Special Forces" to represent his unit and it's capabilites.
If you can't read between the lines...
"Stay out of it!"
Stay safe.
I know this is an old thread but I wanted to add that this may not be an anomaly in regards to one SEALs understanding of the term Special Forces. One of my best friends here in Austin used to serve in the the "teams" (the way they refer to SEAL service). When I first began looking into the Army and SF specifically I talked to him about it thinking he may have some info. I had already done some research and had learned that SF is a unique term (something I never knew as a Marine) and that SOF is the term applied to those other units within SOCOM. I told him I was thinking about SF, his reply was "which branch?" I looked at him curiously and said "the Army of course (feeling smug at being in the know)" He then said, "what like Rangers or Green Beret?" I said, "Well it is my understanding that there is only one SF and it applies only to the Army Special Forces who do not like being referred to as Green Berets" To which he relied, "eh potatoe, potAtoe, just don't be a Ranger there is nothing special about them." I was surprised that someone that I knew for a fact had been a SEAL neither knew nor cared about the differences in terminology. I only bring this up because I thought it might serve to demonstrate that perhaps other SOF groups care a great deal less about using or understanding the appropriate usage of the term Special Forces and that perhaps the author did make this mistake and did not care to correct it. (I have a sneaking suspicion that my friend and his comrade Frogs do this on purpose and that this feigned ignorance is in actuality a plausibly deniable way to get under the skin of "Green Berets". I say this because even after I tried to educate my very intelligent in every other regard friend, he still refers to other assets including SEALS as Special Forces.)
NDD is correct - with the Brits, the SF term is a catchall term for any of their various SOFs which has its roots in WW2. The attached pic shows the wings worn by the various SOE/OSS units throughout Europe in WW2. You'll find any number of books published in the UK on the world's 'elite' forces and they are all referred to as being Special Forces.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
In the book it also refers to Burrell as a Medic, If you want to get technical about it he was Corpsman. Like in many books, news coverage or people outside the military tend to mix & match terms not necessarily 100% accurate.
blue02hd
04-01-2009, 10:00
(I have a sneaking suspicion that my friend and his comrade Frogs do this on purpose and that this feigned ignorance is in actuality a plausibly deniable way to get under the skin of "Green Berets".
I doubt anyone on this board will lose sleep over a SEAL waving his paddle in the air. Worked with a couple I liked, but most of the others had ego's larger than life.
Team Sergeant
04-01-2009, 10:06
I doubt anyone on this board will lose sleep over a SEAL waving his paddle in the air. Worked with a couple I liked, but most of the others had ego's larger than life.
LOL, how else would you get an otherwise sensible man to go into freezing and shark infested water all the time???;)
Luttrell's book was an exciting read and he is a great American with a lot of heart.
But his book does have a few errors. One that I noticed off the bat was when he was talking about his medical training. He said that he attended the 'Eighteenth Delta Force Course at Fort Bragg.' Now, an educated reader knows he meant to say he attended a portion of the Special Forces 18D course, but I'm just surprised someone didn't catch that.
As far as him calling himself Navy Special Forces, I'm sure he just wants to sound like the SF studs that rescued him.
:lifter
All of this happens, because Colonel Bank and LTC Volckmann chose a rather broad generic term in naming the unit.
Scimitar
04-01-2009, 11:03
I'm not 100% sure on this, but on the standing up of SF, any of the other current SOF units or their predecessors didn't exist at the time..correct?
Perhaps they envisioned SF truly being broad spectrum?
S
As far as him calling himself Navy Special Forces, I'm sure he just wants to sound like the SF studs that rescued him.
Easy now. Luttrel is a combat-tested warrior in his own right; I don't think he needs to ride anyone's coat tails to deserve respect.
Easy now. Luttrel is a combat-tested warrior in his own right; I don't think he needs to ride anyone's coat tails to deserve respect.
Agreed. I wasn't being serious, Razor.
I have the utmost respect for him and any other American that can perform under fire as he did.
LOL, how else would you get an otherwise sensible man to go into freezing and shark infested water all the time???;)
That's a dumb question. You call him an SF Combat Diver, yeah?
I know a Navy guy who calls himself a corpsman. What he actually is, to my mind, is a combat medic because he's a SEAL. (Verified btw) The Navy has a vocabulary all its own.
Given the recent state of affairs perhaps people understand SF better than SOF. Unless you are fixing to write a book that appeals strictly to the community you are going to use terms that are already in the common vocab of most people. Gives your book a much bigger audience.
Common sense tells you a guy from the Navy is going to have to write in a way the whole world can understand. It's that or write a freakin FM.
Anybody consider that the SEALs might want to be called SF - many would consider it to be a step up for them, you know.
;) :p :D
Richard's $.02 :munchin
S-sleep
E-eat
A-and
L-lift
That is all I ever seen the vast majority do.
He's a Brit isn't he? They call all theirs "special forces". Makes me wonder if Luttrell proofed the book before it was published.
At an NRA event, Marcus Luttrell refers to the Navy SEALs as Special Forces (10:14 and 12:03 into the video).
http://copthetruth.typepad.com/cop_the_truth/2008/05/marcus-luttrell.html
Anybody consider that the SEALs might want to be called SF - many would consider it to be a step up for them, you know.
;) :p :D
Totally worth considering.
FWIW - lots of ffolkes get SF confused with SOF. The reasons are many - however, it's our job to correct their mistakes whenever we encounter them. It's a big job...and somebody's got to do it. ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Team Sergeant
04-07-2009, 20:28
That's a dumb question. You call him an SF Combat Diver, yeah?
I know a Navy guy who calls himself a corpsman. What he actually is, to my mind, is a combat medic because he's a SEAL. (Verified btw) The Navy has a vocabulary all its own.
Given the recent state of affairs perhaps people understand SF better than SOF. Unless you are fixing to write a book that appeals strictly to the community you are going to use terms that are already in the common vocab of most people. Gives your book a much bigger audience.
Common sense tells you a guy from the Navy is going to have to write in a way the whole world can understand. It's that or write a freakin FM.
Hey little Ms. Serious, it was a rhetorical question.
I fully understand Marcus Luttrell's reference to SF and SOF, and you know what, IMO Marcus can call it whatever he wants, he's walked the walk and earned the right, something you would not understand.
TS
Twinkdawg
05-07-2009, 14:48
I know I'm adding to a lengthy thread, but when I was down range in '05 I was talking to a guy from one of them taskforces at the firebase; I made a generic comment about our team guys.
He told me that the only "Team guys there were, were the Seal Teams", He proceeded to argue with me about the point until I told him that we had John Wayne and they had Charlie Sheen. nuff said.
greenberetTFS
05-07-2009, 16:50
Hey little Ms. Serious, it was a rhetorical question.
I fully understand Marcus Luttrell's reference to SF and SOF, and you know what, IMO Marcus can call it whatever he wants, he's walked the walk and earned the right, something you would not understand.
TS
Good point TS........... He's earned the right to call himself SF if that's what he's comfortable with.....He's a legitimate Hero and that's all there is to say...:)
GB TFS :munchin
Team Sergeant
05-07-2009, 16:50
I know I'm adding to a lengthy thread, but when I was down range in '05 I was talking to a guy from one of them taskforces at the firebase; I made a generic comment about our team guys.
He told me that the only "Team guys there were, were the Seal Teams", He proceeded to argue with me about the point until I told him that we had John Wayne and they had Charlie Sheen. nuff said.
LOL, I can see that conversation now.... "Yeah well my commander is bigger than your commander...";)
As far as Luttrell's 18D course, don't SOF medics go to SOCM for medical training, which I was told is a 6 month portion of the 54 week 18D course? The book made it sound like it was the whole 18D course, not SOCM.
I just chalked it up to writing to the masses as well.
Surgicalcric
05-07-2009, 23:20
Some SEAL Corpsmen attend the long course but there arent, or werent when I was there, many. Based on my observations, they are having a difficult enough time getting thru the 1st half, the easy half, of the course...
Luttrell could have been one of those guys to attend the long course...
Crip
never saw any in Phase I. We had two in Morse Code class, their goal was 10 GPM, then left to return to their units. While visiting a buddy, I saw three at Ft. Sam Houston for the 18D portion there, but they did not proceed to the next phase for Med Lab with the others. (I helped a friend move his family to Bragg from Texas).
We had three Marines attend the entire 18C cource, Robin Sage included. Never saw any SEALs in Robin Sage.
Of all the SEALs I've worked with, I liked calling them "Wet Rangers", and like the Ranger Battalion boys, they were very motivated, young and eager to learn and be better at their jobs. To be honest, they all wished for more infantry training. Many hoped for real Ranger School slots. I saw several Marines in Ranger School, more than I expected to see.
For those who have been to Ranger school, does anyone remember SEALs attending?
cback0220
05-10-2009, 20:44
Some SEAL Corpsmen attend the long course but there arent, or werent when I was there, many. Based on my observations, they are having a difficult enough time getting thru the 1st half, the easy half, of the course...
Luttrell could have been one of those guys to attend the long course...
Crip
In my SFMS class we had we had 4 SEALs and a MARSOC corpsman, the SEALS went straight through and one got the honor grad. The MARSOC guy was a senior E-6 who came back for SFMS. I actually went on rotation with the honor grad. They were definitely good people.
SnwMnkys
05-12-2009, 14:37
A little off topic, but here is a sad news story recently about some kids killing Luttrell's dog he received during his recovery
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/23658/
The Reaper
05-12-2009, 14:43
A little off topic, but here is a sad news story recently about some kids killing Luttrell's dog he received during his recovery
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/23658/
First search, then read, finally post.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22682
TR
A little off topic, but here is a sad news story recently about some kids killing Luttrell's dog he received during his recovery
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/23658/
Please search more as we have a thread on this subject .......
I fully understand Marcus Luttrell's reference to SF and SOF, and you know what, IMO Marcus can call it whatever he wants, he's walked the walk and earned the right...TS
There are small moments, like this one, when reading a post from TS reminds me why PS.com is so incredible.
JMHO, and Thank You, TS.
Holly
Wet Dog,
We had 4 Seals go thru Ranger School with us. 1 recyled and the other three went straight thru with us. Starvation, according to them, was the hardest part of the course. Good dudes. The RIs made them sing the Song of Lupe, all the time.:lifter
Since we are talking Navy SEALs here:
Most of you know, it's "SEAL" not "Seal"
Also it's Admiral Olson not Olsen.
Since we are talking Navy SEALs here:
Most of you know, it's "SEAL" not "Seal"
Also it's Admiral Olson not Olsen.
You know Rangers cannot write. They are like Marines all photos in their manuals....:p
I was always taught that the "N" in Ranger stood for 'Knowledge' or 'Know How'.
You know Rangers cannot write. They are like Marines all photos in their manuals....:p
I was always taught that the "N" in Ranger stood for 'Knowledge' or 'Know How'.
Just my point..... They need spelling lessons also.......:p
God I love to mess with them........ They know I am only kidding. The Ranger HB has writing also for the SF Guys that go through.....:o:eek:
I'm sorry brother Frog. I was bein lazy with the shift key. Corrected: SEAL.
There is one part of Lupe that I can't remember. I even wrote it down, but can't find the words anywhere. The part after maggots crawling out, ............... Sure would like to get the whole song corrected. A PM would be nice. Personally, I love you SEALs. You got a spot at my table anytime and anyplace.
The next and last verse is, "the smile on her face says she's ready for more, she's a hot ......g, ....-......g, mexican ......