View Full Version : Helping or hurting?
incommin
08-15-2007, 14:02
AMSTERDAM - A Roman Catholic Bishop in the Netherlands has proposed people of all faiths refer to God as Allah to foster understanding, stoking an already heated debate on religious tolerance in a country with one million Muslims.
Bishop Tiny Muskens, from the southern diocese of Breda, told Dutch television on Monday that God did not mind what he was named and that in Indonesia, where Muskens spent eight years, priests used the word "Allah" while celebrating Mass.
"Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him? It is our problem."
Off the AP... (Associated Press)
Jim
Where did he get his ThD.? K-mart?
The Dave
08-15-2007, 15:40
I'll go ahead and pass on that one.
Peregrino
08-15-2007, 15:41
Moron. :rolleyes:
I was thinking more along the lines of Quisling. Accomodation is surrender.
Edit - Should have said appeasement. It's nothing less than moral cowardice.
x-factor
08-15-2007, 15:43
I'm going to go with hurting.
I'm all for trying to reach a tolerant understanding with moderate Islam, but this is ridiculous. It portrays terrible weakness and invites attacks both cultural and physical from the Islamic world, but maybe more importantly it invites a reactionary response from latent extreme right-wing elements in Europe.
Everytime I read something like this the same thought comes to my mind: eventually Europe is going to get pushed too far and its going to snap. Islam is going to mess around and wake up fascism in Europe and its not going to like what it gets in response.
Hurting
But just what a lib thinks "It's all our fault, we need to change".
Group Hug anyone?
aricbcool
08-15-2007, 16:06
If God doesn't care, why should the Muslims...
--Aric
. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ...
Not only no, hell no.
82ndtrooper
08-15-2007, 16:53
If God doesn't care, why should the Muslims...
--Aric
Their "Special" and they have been treated unfairly:rolleyes: . We now have to have feet washing facilities on college campuses, and dont dare attempt to petition to have a Southern Baptist sanctuary in one of the empty rooms in the fine arts building or the social sciences department.
Hurting? The Bishop's suggestion is tantamount to surrender. The fact that he is, and remains, a Bishop after advocating such behavior is telling - though not in a good way.
I'm thinking this wouldn't receive reciprocal action by your average cleric in the middle east. What on earth is his point?
Curious to see if the Vatican decides this is worth commenting on - although that would cause a firestorm no matter what they said. Way to put your faith in between a rock and a hard place Bishop Muskens!
ETA - Found this on Foxnews.com:
Roman Catholic Bishop Wants Everyone to Call God 'Allah'
Wednesday, August 15, 2007
A proposal by a Roman Catholic bishop in the Netherlands that people of all faiths refer to God as "Allah" is not sitting well with the Catholic community.
Tiny Muskens, an outgoing bishop who is retiring in a few weeks from the southern diocese of Breda, said God doesn't care what he is called.
"Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him? It is our problem," Muskens told Dutch television.
"I'm sure his intentions are good but his theology needs a little fine-tuning," said Father Jonathan Morris, a Roman Catholic priest based in Rome. Morris, a news analyst for FOX News Channel, also called the idea impractical.
"Words and names mean things," Morris said. "Referring to God as Allah means something."
Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington, D.C.-based Islamic civil liberties and advocacy group, backs the idea as a way to help interfaith understanding.
"It reinforces the fact that Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God," Hooper told FOXNews.com. "I don't think the name is as important as the belief in God and following God's moral principles. I think that's true for all faiths."
Christians who are Arabic speakers speak of Allah when they speak of God, Hooper added.
"There's not a theological leap to make on the part of Christians," Hooper said.
The Council of Islamic Organizations of Greater Chicago supports the idea.
“I think it will open up doors,” said Janaan Hashim, a spokeswoman for the group representing more than 400,000 Muslim Americans in the Chicago area. “Language is a man-made limitation. I think what God cares about is how we fulfill our purpose in life.”
The nation’s largest Catholic civil rights group says Catholics won't get behind the proposal.
“Bishop Martinus “Tiny” Muskens can pray to “Allah” all he wants, but only addlepated Catholics will follow his lead,” Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, said in a statement. “It is not a good sign when members of the Catholic hierarchy indulge in a fawning exchange with Muslims, or those of any other religion.”
Muskens spent eight years in Indonesia, where he said priests used the word "Allah" during Mass.
Muskens also has drawn attention for other ideas such as encouraging the hungry to steal bread and offering condoms to combat HIV and AIDS.
FOXNews.com's Melissa Drosjack and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
I smell an excommunication, especially since the Pope said a couple weeks ago that "If you ain't Catholic, you ain't $hit!"
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-15-2007, 18:46
I smell an excommunication, especially since the Pope said a couple weeks ago that "If you ain't Catholic, you ain't $hit!"
Love that team spirit among the Christian faiths.:D
incommin
08-15-2007, 18:47
Come on, COL Jack, I see ya lurking and hear your brain turning all the way down here in South Georgia.....
Jim
Talk about codependent behavior.
2 Billion Christians in the world, 1 Billion are Catholics.
Maybe he should be saying, the Muslims need to learn to liive with other people. Heck they can not even live with each other in peace.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-16-2007, 04:47
Come on, COL Jack, I see ya lurking and hear your brain turning all the way down here in South Georgia.....
Jim
I am more than a little hesitant to go beyond that as my computer is not grounded well enough for the first lightning strike:D
JAGeorgia
08-16-2007, 08:07
"God did not mind what he was named"?????
Hum...Wonder why He calls Himself by specific names in the Torah (Old Testament)? Wonder if He likes it when His name is used as a prefix to "damn"? I wonder if I would care what people called me if I were a) omnipotent, b) omniscient, and c) omnipresent...I currently favor "Your Majesty", but then I'm not any of those.
Actually, I am more concerned with what He will call me on my way to my final destination. Perhaps the good Bishop should ask himself that question.
:eek:
We now have to have feet washing facilities on college campuses.
Just about every building in America has them too...they're called toilets. :)
Remington Raidr
08-16-2007, 11:45
According to the article, Tiny is hanging it up and probably wants to ensure he is one of the last Dutch citizens to be savagely stabbed to death in the street by some Muslim nutjob. It's just his way of retirement planning.;)
Our good 'ol American dollar says it best:
"In God We Trust" :lifter
As gypsy says best:
Not only no, hell no.
Radar Rider
08-16-2007, 13:36
If God doesn't care, why should the Muslims...
--Aric
He told me go ahead and call him "Ted".
3SoldierDad
08-16-2007, 14:30
You know sometimes your best friend is the delete button. I don't want to say what I'm thinking. As my Dad says, "Sometimes the best thing to do is to nod, smile, and change the subject."
Three Soldier Dad...Chuck
.
A small side not, "god" is a pseudo name, it is not the specific name.
My understanding is that "Allah' was the name of a specific Arab god. They had something like 250 different gods.
Like Zeus to the Greeks Or Thor to the Norsemen.
The name god in the bible is a transliteration of the pseudo names representing "God" of the bible.
Adonai (Lord), HaShem(The Name) etc..
I don't believe the God of the Bible name is actually ever mentioned. The YHVH (four letter tetra-gammon) defines a characteristic, I am that I am, I will be what I will be, etc. It's actual pronounciation is questionable, because no vowels are used and it is not spoken. Jahovah is a misnomer of that. The "J" sound did not come-about till around the 1500's AD.
Or, so using "Allah" which has changed the meaning from a specific Arab's god into meaning the one god/Creator, one could say it is Arabic transliteration of the word "god" would probably work for Arab speaking people. I believe Christians who speak Arabic do that.
If we look at how The Creator is invisioned in the Jewish bible (Tanach) or the Christian bible, Allah of the Koran is greatly in conflict with it. It would be almost as bad as asking everyone to call the Creator of the bible Zeus.
Part of the profination of the name of the Creator of the bible is to drag it down to every day use. To use it without thought or meaning. Like a private walking up to a General, and saying, "Yo bubba, whats happenin'"
He told me go ahead and call him "Ted".
My kid sister, at age 6, would have disagreed with you. She told me quite plainly that God's name is Harold God.
Our Father who art in heaven, Harold be thy name..........
Ah, innocence! :cool:
He told me go ahead and call him "Ted".
So Allah told you it was OK to call him "Ted"?
Son, I'm worried about you.:D
incommin
08-16-2007, 18:06
[QUOTE=HOLLiS]A small side not, "god" is a pseudo name, it is not the specific name.
My understanding is that "Allah' was the name of a specific Arab god. They had something like 250 different gods.
I don't think they had 250 gods......I think their "good book" says that Allah has 99 names..... I see nothing wrong with calling God, God and telling those who want us to change the way we view our religion or go way out of our way to accommodate theirs to go to hell.
Jim
[QUOTE=HOLLiS]A small side not, "god" is a pseudo name, it is not the specific name.
My understanding is that "Allah' was the name of a specific Arab god. They had something like 250 different gods.
I don't think they had 250 gods......I think their "good book" says that Allah has 99 names..... I see nothing wrong with calling God, God and telling those who want us to change the way we view our religion or go way out of our way to accommodate theirs to go to hell.
Jim
At the time of Abraham the Arabs had many gods. When the Angels that stopped by on their way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham washed their feet. Abraham did not want any other gods in his house, to the Arabs, dust was a god.
This is also a interesting story, because Muslims link the Arab ancestry to Abraham via Ishmael.
When I read this event, it was mentioned the Arab people had many many gods.
x-factor
08-16-2007, 20:10
Many scholars trace the word "Allah" to the moon god's name in the pre-Mohammed pantheon (the Arabs call this time the jahiliyah, meaning the "time of ignorance") and some say that the Muslim adoption of the crescent as their symbol traces back to this as well.
This is not to say that Muslims worship the moon or a moon-god today (the Koran is pretty clear in that respect), only that the etymology of the word may trace to this root, in the same way that the Latin word "deus" may trace in part to the Greek "zeus". It doesn't mean Catholics worship the thunder god.
Muslims will tell you that the use of the crescent as a symbol is because it symbolizes Ramadan, but it is at least possible that the symbol was transfered from its original pagan purpose to its current use (like Christmas trees).
FearMonkey
08-16-2007, 23:22
Many scholars trace the word "Allah" to the moon god's name...
Scholars maintain that the word "Allah," of course, means "Whale's Vagina," and that's exactly where this particular Roman Catholic Bishop can shove his idea.
Sorry, I'll let you intellects get back to your symposium. :p
Radar Rider
08-17-2007, 06:50
My kid sister, at age 6, would have disagreed with you. She told me quite plainly that God's name is Harold God.
Our Father who art in heaven, Harold be thy name..........
Ah, innocence! :cool:
That could very well explain Jesus' middle name, then. ;)
Scholars maintain that the word "Allah," of course, means "Whale's Vagina," and that's exactly where this particular Roman Catholic Bishop can shove his idea.
Sorry, I'll let you intellects get back to your symposium. :p
I always thought that's what San Diego meant. . . and yeah this is a stupid idea. I told my wife about this and she commented that the more liberal, critically thinking muslims don't care, and the ones for whom this "offering" is intended, are still going to hate Catholics.
Monsoon65
08-17-2007, 16:46
My kid sister, at age 6, would have disagreed with you. She told me quite plainly that God's name is Harold God.
Our Father who art in heaven, Harold be thy name..........
Ah, innocence! :cool:
No, not Harold.
It's Howard. Or at least that's how I always heard it!
Radar Rider
08-17-2007, 16:52
No, not Harold.
It's Howard. Or at least that's how I always heard it!
Howard was the dad on 'Happy Days'. I guess it could be that. :p