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The Reaper
04-27-2004, 20:36
You are dropped uninjured into a remote forest environment wearing BDUs and boots. Your pockets are empty and you have no additional gear. You are non-tactical, i.e., no enemy is hunting you. It is in a temperate climatic area, in the spring. Daytime highs are in the 70s, but at night it drops below 40. There is a natural water source of unknown potability nearby. No known shelter is available. If located, you may be rescued sooner than 60 days, but that may not happen. You are going to remain in the immediate area and not walk out for at least the next two months.

What are the minimum tools and equipment you need to survive for 60 days in this environment?

What are your essential tasks? What are the priorities?

Feel free to add to this list of questions as needed, and let's see the least extensive list you feel you could survive with.

TR

Ambush Master
04-27-2004, 21:59
When you say "Dropped" does that mean via parachute, or placed ??

If placed, what type of "Craft (ie Aircraft, Boat, etc) delivered us (me) there ?? This is a very complex scenario that needs to be defined up-front. This will get real deep Very Fast !!

Get it on !!

Larter.
Martin

The Reaper
04-27-2004, 23:34
AM:

You could have been dropped off by a turnip truck, a chopper, a barge, or any other means which does not provide you with any extras (like a parachute, or an aircraft to salvage).

I want to see what you think you need to survive for an extended period.

I think I know what I would need, vs. what could be found or obtained locally with the tools I bring or could make.

Rather than make the scenario too complicated with the many angles we could get lost in debating, I am just looking for the bare essentials required to survive in a relatively benign environment.

Adding bad guys, Artic conditions, large predators, etc. would unnecessarily complicate the scenario.

We can complicate this further later with a size/weight restriction, environmental changes, etc., but for now let's just look at it from a vanilla perspective.

For example, to survive in the above environment, I will need at least one means to make a fire. Whether I choose steel and flint, a magnifying glass, using a bootlace and local materials to make a fire bow, or to carry a butane lighter is my decision. All have advantages and disadvantages we can discuss.

I may not like your choice, or your logic, but I will probably learn something in the process of the discussion.

A spate of articles about the Lewis and Clark expedition and a recent thread about E&E put me in this thought process. How much gear do you really need to survive, and how do you carry it?

Some will need less than others, by a decreased comfort level, or by personal skills and knowledge. There are people who could do this with just a machete and a flint striker, and live relatively well. Others may think they need a support vehicle, and would still suffer.

TR

brownapple
04-28-2004, 05:41
I'm breaking my list into two segments:


1. Need, meaning it is absolutely essential. It may be that there is a way to create the needed item locally available, but I will still need them.

2. Want, meaning items that are not absolutely essential but will make the 2 months much more likely to be in reasonable condition.


NEED:

Cutting implement
Fire-starter
Cordage
Sewing implements


Want:

Medical items (to include antibiotics)
Salt
Some food items/supplements

Depending on the AO, all the "need" items can be manufactured by hand if necessary.

Priorities (dependent somewhat on time of drop-off and immediate AO characteristics):

Fire
Shelter
Water
Food

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 06:45
I like the way you are thinking.

We can get into specific tools later.

TR

Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-28-2004, 08:32
Originally posted by The Reaper
AM:



Rather than make the scenario too complicated with the many angles we could get lost in debating, I am just looking for the bare essentials required to survive in a relatively benign environment.


TR

I don't want to stir things up too much, but there really is no such thing as a benign environment and while I agree that fire, shelter, water, and food are all critical the priority in which you go about obtaining (creating) them are environmentally dependent and you can make an argument for which one rises to the top. I guess the bottom line here is that your first priority after "drop off" for me would be to make an immediate assessment of where I am and what the "benign" environment presents. While I am relatively sure in this situation my first priority would be to find something that would shelter me from the most likely environmental challenges for the night, my next would be to gather enough wood and get a fire going to announce my presence in case folks were starting to look for my sorry butt even though I was dumb enought to get isolated in the first place. Now I am sure you can also argue that a fire would be your first priority, but if you have arrived as you have mentioned without matches or the good old Zippo we all used to carry I am not sure I would want to strip off my boot laces and start trying to create a fire with a bow and block only to have night time fall and still be sitting out in a rainstorm and dealing with hypothermia overnight. So to make a long story short a lot is scenario dependent and you really have to understand where you are, what is around you, what the impending challenges are and then proceed from there. Just a thought.

Jack Moroney

QRQ 30
04-28-2004, 08:39
Your original premise is a little confusing. You say I have nothing but the clothes I'm wearing and then ask what I should have/need.

The clothes including boot laces can be util;ized for something and I wear glasses for fire starting, heh, heh, heh.

The list is pretty accurate: water, fire, shelter, food.

:munchin

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 09:38
Originally posted by Jack Moroney
I don't want to stir things up too much, but there really is no such thing as a benign environment and while I agree that fire, shelter, water, and food are all critical the priority in which you go about obtaining (creating) them are environmentally dependent and you can make an argument for which one rises to the top. I guess the bottom line here is that your first priority after "drop off" for me would be to make an immediate assessment of where I am and what the "benign" environment presents. While I am relatively sure in this situation my first priority would be to find something that would shelter me from the most likely environmental challenges for the night, my next would be to gather enough wood and get a fire going to announce my presence in case folks were starting to look for my sorry butt even though I was dumb enought to get isolated in the first place. Now I am sure you can also argue that a fire would be your first priority, but if you have arrived as you have mentioned without matches or the good old Zippo we all used to carry I am not sure I would want to strip off my boot laces and start trying to create a fire with a bow and block only to have night time fall and still be sitting out in a rainstorm and dealing with hypothermia overnight. So to make a long story short a lot is scenario dependent and you really have to understand where you are, what is around you, what the impending challenges are and then proceed from there. Just a thought.

Jack Moroney

My intent here was to spur a little discussion about survival gear without having people prepare an extensive list to include weapons and implements of destruction to defend themselves against the Waffen SS, VC, Indians, lions, tigers, or bears.

Sir, I consider the area around Ft. Bragg and CMK to be pretty benign, and described it as an example. There are no real enemy threats, nor are there very many large predators that would seek out and attack a fully grown human. The environment here is such that there are relatively few days per year with climatic extremes that would kill a healthy adult individual with the ability to make expedient shelter and fire. I was dropped off by Badin Lake for the survival portion of the SFQC and managed quite well for five days with very few tools. I know what I took, think I know what I would need to extend the time, and would like to see what others thought, perhaps teaching a bit and learning something in the process. I chose 60 days because the average person could probably just build an expedient shelter and lay up for a month without hunting or gathering much.

My question was multi part starting with:

What are the Minimum tools and equipment you need to survive for 60 days in this environment? You tell me. If you need a Zippo and think that one would be adequate to support you for starting fires for 60 days in that environment, fine.

You seem to be indicating shelter would be your first priority after arriving, assessing, and taking stock of the situation, followed by fire.

QRQ:

Sorry to have confused you.

Are you indicating that you consdider the clothes you have on and your glasses are adequate to survive in the woods for 60 days without support? Hope it isn't overcast or night time already. What will you cut with?

Water, fire, shelter, food as priorities could be juggled due to exigencies, as JM indicated. Now what tools do you use to acquire and prepare them? In this scenario, an axe or a machete might be an adequate edged item. Without additional fuel sources, I would pass on the Zippo. The BIC or a Blastmatch might be a better choice for me.

I have already learned that I had forgotten salt, and the extraordinary value it had in the past years. Thanks GH.

I use black 550 cord for my bootlaces, that should be enough cordage for my initial requirements, and more could be found in the wild.

What/why would you need to sew, though I grant that some monofilament line, a couple of manufactured needles and hooks could be very handy, and would take up very little space?

Anyone who feels that this thread is not productive, or the scenario is too vague feel free to disregard it or in the admins' case, delete this thread.

Just trying to generate some thought and education here.

TR

QRQ 30
04-28-2004, 10:00
TR: I took your original problem literally:

You are dropped uninjured into a remote forest environment wearing BDUs and boots. Your pockets are empty and you have no additional gear.

That would preclude a "packing List". As for going naked, I presumed you would allow shorts, T-shirt and socks. Also web belt w/metal buckle. I really think we could work with this. It's not too dissimilar to survival school.

If we are going to have a packing list let's try a GPS.:D

Roguish Lawyer
04-28-2004, 10:25
Originally posted by The Reaper
Anyone who feels that this thread is not productive, or the scenario is too vague feel free to disregard it or in the admins' case, delete this thread.

Just trying to generate some thought and education here.

It is quite educational for me and I hope the thread will continue. Thanks to everyone who participates.

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 11:00
Originally posted by QRQ 30
TR: I took your original problem literally:

That would preclude a "packing List". As for going naked, I presumed you would allow shorts, T-shirt and socks. Also web belt w/metal buckle. I really think we could work with this. It's not too dissimilar to survival school.

If we are going to have a packing list let's try a GPS.:D

I want a minimum packing list of items you would need, in addition to what you are wearing, and would consider additions of what you would want. I listed the BDUs and boots so that one person would not be in shorts and a t-shirt, and another would have a full uniform, to include LBE and two or three survival kits. Level the playing field, so to speak.

To look at this another way, let's say that you could take your Yarborough Knife (thank you Mr. Harsey and Mr. Reeve), and anything you could fit in the pocket on the sheath.

What would you put in it? Would you be able to survive for 60 days with just those items (and those you could make or obtain with them)?

For those non survival trained personnel lurking on this thread, there are many good survival sites out there which can teach you about not just wilderness survival, but daily and urban survicval as well. One of my favorite survival websites is http://www.equippedtosurvive.com/ though they do tend to get heavily into air crash and sea survival.

They have a new kit I am looking at right now.

TR

QRQ 30
04-28-2004, 11:08
OK. I'm going with my premise (nada) but will perhaps use what others choose to bring. My first action would bee three fold, 1), a short recon of the area, assessing what is available while 2) looking for a suitable shelter/camp site and 3) inventorying what I personally have available. We have six months so there is no need to hurry and weaken ourselves.

Surgicalcric
04-28-2004, 11:12
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
It is quite educational for me and I hope the thread will continue. Thanks to everyone who participates.

I concur fully with RL.

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 11:22
Originally posted by QRQ 30
OK. I'm going with my premise (nada) but will perhaps use what others choose to bring. My first action would bee three fold, 1), a short recon of the area, assessing what is available while 2) looking for a suitable shelter/camp site and 3) inventorying what I personally have available. We have six months so there is no need to hurry and weaken ourselves.

Concur.

I like the acronym STOP.

Stop.

Think.

Observe.

Plan.

Unless Jimbo is getting into your OODA Loop (and OODA isn't too far from STOP).

We are not evading or hoofing it out in this scenario.

60 days, not six months, unless you are enjoying the vacation.

TR

Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-28-2004, 12:03
TR,
The Zippo was just a comment but has a basis for use. After you run out of lighter fluid you still have the ability to create a spark with the wheel and striker. But there are many ways to create a flame that could exhaust this forum and it really depends on what else you can find. Sorry if I sounded like I was urinating on your camp fire, that was not my intention.

I think the initial assessment should drive the effort. As QRQ30 points out we have time and we do not want to expend a whole lot of energy without having established the means to obtain chow to replenish it.

I break survival down into physical needs of shelter, fire, water and food as mentioned before. For me I can satisfy all those requirements with a good knife, some 550 cord, fire starter of some sort (matches, lighter, improvised bow and drill, commercial metal match, etc). Water is only a problem in that you have to make sure it is not contaminated. This will requiring obtaining a container of some sort to boil it (and there is nothing like an old canteen cup for that) or obtaining it from plants (which will require a rudimentary knowledge of those in the area that you can use), building a solar still , or collecting rainfall and dew. Shelter is easy but requires a lot of work to use natural material and for that a simple poncho would fill the bill for most situations. Food is limited only by your patience, sqeamishness, and knowledge of the flora and fauna of the area.

For those not used to living in the woods there are other problems which may or may not be overcome depending on the person. These are basically dealing with fear, anxiety, pain, injury, illness, effects of cold and heat extremes, thrist, hunger, fatique, sleep deprivation, loneliness and isolation. Most of this can be handled by good training ahead of time.

Besides building your kit, your actions in a survival situation are also important. Personal hygiene, establishing a routine, maintainng a signalling system that functions in both daylight and darkness, maintaining (if possible) a log will also contribute to your survival and recovery.

Jack Moroney-ducking, weaving and waiting for incoming.

NousDefionsDoc
04-28-2004, 12:32
Tools
Fire starter
Knife/Multi-tool
550 cord

Nice to have
Canteen
Signal mirror
Panel
Purification tablets

Priorities
STOP - I like that one as well
Shelter
Water
Food will move up the list Day 2-3

Essential tasks
Recon area - looking for best area for shelter, best area for signals, a pot to boil my water, a tarp or plastic, flora and fauna for food, etc.
Build the shelter before it gets dark
Prepare water for drinking
Set up my signal for the searchers
Start thinking about food - it may take 2-3 days

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 13:12
What is the rough rule of thumb for survival priorities?

5 minutes without O2
5 days without water
5 weeks without food

Agree about slipping the food procurement out on the spectrum, and with the lists of priorities so far.

Not going to freeze, but it is going to be chilly at night. Find a good sheltered area for the camp, not too far from the water or wood source.

I really miss the old M1 steel helmet when it comes to boiling water. Not advised for the K-Pot. You can use tabs, bleach, iodine, a filter, or boiling, some kits even include heavy aluminum foil for an expedient boiling container. Field recovered soda bottles or plastic bags will make good storage containers. Condoms can be used, but I would stick with sealed plain ones.

The best thing about survival training is sticking that little fact in the back of your brain that while it might suck, you really can do it, and do it well, if you had to.

The Zippo is good, I grew up with them, recall my Grandfather keeping several spare flints in the bottom of his, and occasionally filling it from a gas can or a Mason Jar, but it is a bit bulky compared to a Spark-Lite or BIC.

I am thinking about ordering a couple of the ETS Pocket Survival Kits, for the components, if nothing else:

Spark-Lite Firestarter - current U.S. military issue, waterproof, useable one-handed, over 1000 sparkings in tests

4 Spark-Lite Tinder-Quik - current U.S. military issue, waterproof, wax impregnated cotton tinder in zip-top plastic bag, each burns 2-3 minutes

Fox-40 Rescue Howler Survival Whistle - designed exclusively for this kit, triple frequency, exceeds U.S. Coast Guard and SOLAS specifications, bright yellow with dual mode lanyard hole

Rescue Flash Signal Mirror, 2 x 3 inches (5 x 7.6 cm) Lexan polycarbonate with mil-spec style retro-reflective aiming aid for one-handed use, instructions on back, protective cover to prevent scratches while stored in the kit, lanyard hole.

20mm Survival Compass - liquid damped with groove to accept an improvised lanyard ring

Duct Tape - 26 inches x 2 inches (66 x 5 cm), rolled around plastic mandrel, repairs, first aid, the ultimate repair and improvisation component, uses limited only by your imagination

Stainless Steel Utility Wire - 6 ft. of .020 inch (1.83 m x 0.5 mm) mil-spec grade, stronger than brass, won't get brittle in frigid cold, multiple uses

Braided Nylon Cord - 10 ft. (3 m) 150+ lb. (68+ kg) test, won't unravel, shelter building, repairs and much more

#69 Black Nylon Thread - 50 ft. (15.2 m), 10.5 lb. (4.8 kg) test, repairs, fishing line, light duty lashing and much more

Fishing Kit - 4 x medium Fish Hooks, 2 x Split Shot and 1 x Snap Swivel, in a clear plastic vial with cap.

Heavy Duty Sewing Needle - will penetrate heavy materials, easy to grip, large eye for easy threading

4 Safety Pins - repairs, secure items to prevent loss and much more

Heavy Duty Aluminum Foil - 3 sq. ft. (0.9 sq. m), make container to boil water, reflect fire heat and much more

#2 Pencil and Waterproof Notepaper - 2 pieces 2.125 x 3.667 inches (5.4 x 9.3 cm), leave notes, memory aid, keep log

#24 Scalpel Blade - stainless steel, in sealed foil packaging, more functional than a single-edged razor blade

Kit Specific Illustrated Survival Instructions - authored by Doug Ritter, 33 illustrations, on waterproof paper, detailed, easy to understand, practical information

Contents List - viewable through pouch back so anyone can see what's inside even if kit's owner can no longer assist, annotated, compliments Survival Instructions, can be used as tinder

Fresnel Lens Magnifier - 2 x 3 inches (5 x 7.6 cm), in protective sleeve, read small type in survival instructions if glasses lost, start fire using sun

Pocketsized Clear Vinyl Pouch - 4 x 5 inches (10.2 x 12.7 cm), 4 x 3.25 inches (10.2 x 8.3 cm) with top folded over, waterproof zip-top closure, lanyard hole, it really does fit in your pocket.

Total Weight: 3.9 oz (111 g)


Add a knife/machete/axe, a mini-flashlight, water purification, a minimal 1st aid kit, and a sharpener for the blade, we could be onto something.

Now what about you non-SF guys I see lurking in here. Have you ever been out camping for a few days? Got anything to add or ask?

Mr. Harsey, a knife/machete/axe recommendation for extended survival?

Thanks for the contributions guys, I knew we could count on you. :D

TR

NousDefionsDoc
04-28-2004, 13:25
What is the rough rule of thumb for survival priorities?

5 minutes without O2
5 days without water
5 weeks without food

LOL - you stuck me out here for 60 days with nothing else to do, I'm going to get as comfortable as I can. Besides, I don't like waiting until it becomes an emergency. Sometimes it can take weeks for those nets and snares to work. Roger the steel pot, good tool that one.

Bill Harsey
04-28-2004, 13:38
Any knife beats no knife at all. That's the greatest difference between knives. If I was in North American wooded lands I might consider a small axe, back pack size. Some machetes are too light for chopping down small trees but it can certainly be done. machetes come in many lengths and weights. I do not know what is currently on the market. Most game animals are difficult to open and make into chewable food without a knife. In north country we might get lucky and find a cougar or bear killed deer covered with sticks but I wouldn't want to have to depend on that. This could also result in some ownership issues. Rocks can be broken with other rocks for a crude edge that can get an animal open. Some areas may be devoid of any usable stone. I'll have a look around at machetes and see what's available. A stout machete can also do the work of a knife by choking up on the blade. I know that machetes can be used to build entire structures with furniture in some locations.

Sacamuelas
04-28-2004, 13:43
Originally posted by The Reaper

1.Stainless Steel Utility Wire - 6 ft. of .020 inch (1.83 m x 0.5 mm) mil-spec grade, stronger than brass, won't get brittle in frigid cold, multiple uses

2.Braided Nylon Cord - 10 ft. (3 m) 150+ lb. (68+ kg) test, won't unravel, shelter building, repairs and much more

3.#69 Black Nylon Thread - 50 ft. (15.2 m), 10.5 lb. (4.8 kg) test, repairs, fishing line, light duty lashing and much more

***Fresnel Lens Magnifier - 2 x 3 inches (5 x 7.6 cm), in protective sleeve, read small type in survival instructions if glasses lost, start fire using sun

TR


I would suggest that a very small, yet lengthy spool of high test strength "spider wire" brand fishing line would perform every one of the tasks listed for the suggested items 1-3. It(100yrds or so) would also fit into the same size container as the small circular spools of dental floss( approx 1" diameter).

It is easy to tie firm knots, incredibly strong for its diameter, cheap, is made in dk. green matte finish, extremely water/weather/UV resistant. Thoughts?

As to the last item above, I think I will leave that one alone. LOL

QRQ 30
04-28-2004, 13:50
Is that all.? :D

Air.177
04-28-2004, 14:01
Being an advocate of overkill and redundancy, I don't think that I can contribute much if anything to this Minimalist survival thread. It is however, Highly interesting. Thanks to all contributors.

Blake-Department of Redundancy Department

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 14:23
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
I would suggest that a very small, yet lengthy spool of high test strength "spider wire" brand fishing line would perform every one of the tasks listed for the suggested items 1-3. It(100yrds or so) would also fit into the same size container as the small circular spools of dental floss( approx 1" diameter).

It is easy to tie firm knots, incredibly strong for its diameter, cheap, is made in dk. green matte finish, extremely water/weather/UV resistant. Thoughts?

As to the last item above, I think I will leave that one alone. LOL

One of the best things about survival gear is items with multi-purpose capabilities, like the duct tape. Too bad there is no WD-40 in it.

I recently asked my wife to look for dental floss, wrapped for travel around a flat piece of cardboard for inclusion in a kit. She asked if dental hygiene was really that important in a survival situation. I told her that I could use it for that, or I could sew with it, to include emergency suturing, use it to make certain types of snares, tie small knots and lashings, weave into heavier cordage, use as fishing line, etc. She looked at me like I was crazy, and asked why I didn't just get the correct items which would work better for the job. I explained that the kit would be too big and heavy to be of much use, and that none of the purpose designed items would do all of the other jobs as well as the floss.

Spiderwire would not replace the wire for snares, it needs to be stiff, and able to be bent and recovered.

It also would not work well to replace braided nylon cord, where you need something of a larger diameter and strength. For example, you could tie the braided nylon to a tree and hang from it by your hands if you had to. I don't think you want to try that with Spider Wire, even if it was strong enough. I MIGHT replace it with 550 cord, if I could pack an equivalent lenght as tightly.

Having said all of that, I am intrigued, however, about replacing the thread with it. If woven into a larger diameter cord, the cotton thread could be used as a wick. If the Spider Wire could do everything else the thread could do, including sewing and suturing, it might be worth a swap. May have to get some to experiment with.

Thanks, Doc!

Some of the items in the kit could be dropped, if unnecessary.

Early man lived with just a sharp edge, and a fire maker, and made everything else from raw materials. Not sure I want to be that austere though, but again, it is good to know that it can be done, and how to do it.

TR

Roguish Lawyer
04-28-2004, 14:29
Originally posted by The Reaper
Now what about you non-SF guys I see lurking in here. Have you ever been out camping for a few days? Got anything to add or ask?

Yes on camping. Nothing to add. Would be interested in more on the details on shelter and food (I think water already has been covered). Anyone want to talk about things like the many uses of 550 cord or how to catch fish without monofilament line and hook?

QRQ 30
04-28-2004, 14:30
As long as we are going to be wusses and make a kit I stronglly recomment a "Space Blanket".:lifter

Sacamuelas
04-28-2004, 14:40
Originally posted by The Reaper
I recently asked my wife to look for dental floss, wrapped for travel around a flat piece of cardboard for inclusion in a kit.
TR

TR-
They make dental floss "credit cards" that hold fifty yards of floss. They are standard credit card dimensions, except it is four credit cards thick verses one. You might want to check into that. ALL the major dental supply/gadget companies sell them. I did a quick google and got this example...
http://gifts4exec.com/Item/CC-50.htm

Now, you modify it by changing out the floss with spider wire... instant survival thread in a handy little/storable package. :cool:

I am sure I have some of those floss packets around the office, I think I will go experiment a little.

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 14:47
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Yes on camping. Nothing to add. Would be interested in more on the details on shelter and food (I think water already has been covered). Anyone want to talk about things like the many uses of 550 cord or how to catch fish without monofilament line and hook?

With 550 cord, you get a woven outer shell, like a kermantle rope, and multiple interior strands which are not woven. You burn the end and the inner strands are encased securely. Snip off the end, and a dozen or so threads are exposed which can be pulled out, cut off, and used for whatever purpose you need small cordage for. It is great as a unit for normal heavy cord applications, or the strands can be used for lashings, snares, nets, or whatever task you have at hand. The inner strands will even unravel into smaller strands, if needed. It has a couple of deficiencies, as it is nylon, it does not hold all knots well, and it will melt or burn at a fairly low exposure to heat.

Unless something else if found available, given no man made materials like a poncho or shelter half, initial shelter construction will almost certainly be a lean to, improved by further enclosure as time permits.

Food should be available from foraging, fishing, netting, snares, traps, or possibly slingshot, bow and arrow, or spear, depending on your access to materials, construction and application skills, and availability of game in your area. Laws of conservation must be considered though, expending large numbers of calories to obtain small sources of food is counter productive and should be avoided.

Fish can be netted, caught on manufactured, improvised, or homemade hooks (bone, wood, etc., line of twine, cord, snare wire, floss, etc.), trapped, shocked, stunned, clubbed, poisoned, grabbed, speared, etc.

Additional recommendations?

TR

lrd
04-28-2004, 14:52
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Yes on camping. Nothing to add. Would be interested in more on the details on shelter and food (I think water already has been covered). Anyone want to talk about things like the many uses of 550 cord or how to catch fish without monofilament line and hook?
This (http://www.dto.com/fwfishing/methods/method.jsp?Articleid=153&Articletypeid=107) is how my husband and his brothers learned to fish from their uncle -- no line or hook needed.

I wouldn't recommend it, though.

lrd
04-28-2004, 14:54
Question: if you are going to stay there until picked up, how important is it to know where you are? Is a compass important to have or not?

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 15:04
There are other ways to determine cardinal direction.

It was packed in the kit. As I stated, items could be added or deleted, as needed.

It would be much more important if moving.

It occurs to me that having a watch could be handy as well.

TR

Sacamuelas
04-28-2004, 15:05
Originally posted by lrd
This (http://www.dto.com/fwfishing/methods/method.jsp?Articleid=153&Articletypeid=107) is how my husband and his brothers learned to fish from their uncle -- no line or hook needed.

I wouldn't recommend it, though.

You friggin Yankees are hilarious... THAT is called Catfish "Grabbin" not noodling or whatever the wussy sounding title was in that link. LOL

Sorry for the hijack... back to thread.

lrd
04-28-2004, 15:33
Originally posted by The Reaper
There are other ways to determine cardinal direction.

It was packed in the kit. As I stated, items could be added or deleted, as needed.

It would be much more important if moving.

It occurs to me that having a watch could be handy as well.

TR I was thinking about a watch when I asked about the compass. My son's watch has a compass, but mine doesn't. It would be one less thing to carry if your watch had a compass...

How does wire fishing line compare to stainless steel utility wire?

QRQ 30
04-28-2004, 15:53
I was hoping for a forum on "HOW to survive" rather than "What to pack". In survival training in the 10th in Germany they put us out in teams with the clothes on our backs, a canteen of water, ID cards and Dog Tags - PUNKT!! Brook Shields and Tom Hanks did it. I volunteer to have Brook Shields as my partner.

BTW: I don't think "noodling" is a yankee term. I've seen it on TV and believe it was in Missouri and Arkansas.

Razor
04-28-2004, 16:40
Just found this thread; great discussion, TR.

Excuse me a momentary tangent--TR, I agree that the AMK PSP is a great 'starter kit' for a personal survival kit, especially when you compare the unit cost to the retail prices of the individual items. Heck, the Spark-Lite alone runs close to $10 from most sources. Did you find the STOP acronym on the downloadable instruction sheet from the site? Its much easier to remember than SURVIVAL, that's for sure.

Ok, back to the task at hand. For this scenario, I'm going to assume that my stay is set at no less than 60 days, and I don't have any requirements to signal to rescue crews (hence allowing me to focus on staying warm, healthy and fed).

Like most others, my 'Need' (bare minimum) list would include a knife with at least a 3" blade (a 5-7" fixed blade would be better), 15' of 550 cord (I really suck at making my own cordage), a full-sized Bic lighter (making a firebow or friction trench is a real PITA, and not very quick), and a couple square feet of aluminum foil or a sealable baby bottle liner--Gerber makes a good one (in case there's no trash around to carry water). Understand that I'm not saying I'm another Tom Brown; this is the minimum gear I'd want on me in this situation to survive. I'd want much more (soon to come) to be relatively comfortable.

As has already been stated, first task is to scout around a bit to find a good place to build a shelter (initially a deadfall shelter or lean-to), find a water source (preferably a stream or pond/lake) and gather fuel for my fire and other handy materials I could use later for tools.

Next, I'd start on my shelter to at least have something if I have to get out of the rain/wind, and to help me conserve heat when night falls. The easiest to build would be a deadfall lean-to, but this requires finding a long, stout piece of deadfall and a stump or other prop at least a couple feet high. Lean one end of the pole on the prop, then lean sturdy sticks against the center pole on either side at an angle, creating a sort of pup-tent, with the center pole being the top crease in the tent. You can then layer evergreen boughs on the framework, then soil on the boughs, then more boughs or leaves to add a water repellent layer to the outside. If there's no large deadfall, I can build a standard lean-to, using some of my 550 cord to build the frame.

Once the initial shelter work is done, I'd gather up more fire fuel and stockpile it near the shelter. Once I had multiple armloads set aside, I'd dig out a small 3-sided indentation in the ground (clearing away other flammables) a few feet in front of my shelter and start a slow-burning, log cabin style fire to eventually create a bed of coals. After the fire is burning healthy, I'd start work on a small reflector wall behind it to direct the heat toward the opening of my shelter. Since the soil is sandy, I'd build the wall frame from sticks and boughs, then cover it with sandy soil to help keep it from catching on fire. Later, I can find clay to cover the soil to make the reflector even more fire-resistant.

If I was successful in finding some discarded soda or food cans, I have a good container to go collect some water and filter/boil/store it. If not, I can use the bottle liner I brought to collect water and the foil to shape a bowl liner to boil it in. IIRC, cryptosporidium and giardia is not uncommon in this area, and unless you're carrying some Katadyn Micropur tabs, boiling is the only way to surely kill the cysts. Of course, you want to initially collect the cleanest water you can, and preferably from a running water source so there are no pools for bugs to nest. If I did find some discarded trash, I can use a plastic bottle to carry water and to build a multi-layer filter. To make the filter, turn the bottle upside-down and cut the bottom off. Put a matting of pine straw in nearest the neck (to keep the next layer from falling out), then add a layer of charcoal from your fire pit (to help remove some of the little nasties), then a layer of clean (no debris) sand (to filter out small chunks of organic material), then a layer of pebbles (to remove larger chunks of stuff), then another layer of pine straw (to remove the large initial chunks of stuff). To use, place your filtered water container under the neck, and pour your unfiltered water into the cut open bottom of the filter. This will remove most of the organic crud, but you'll still have to boil or treat the filtered water to kill the microscopic bugs.

If I was able to get all this done before nightfall, I'd collect some more firewood, and a pile of dry leaves that I would use to stuff inside my pants and BDU coat (check for critters first) for additional insulation during the night. I would avoid moving around at night to reduce the chance of 1) getting lost, 2) getting hurt by falling down or getting a stick in the eye, and 3) getting cold. I'd loosen my bootlaces to improve circulation to my feet, but avoid taking my boots off as they provide protection from wandering beasties and if I need to move quickly during the night I want my boots on.

Maple Flag
04-28-2004, 17:16
Good thread, and good replies. The basic principles of wilderness survival are there in various forms. I like the concept of 5 minutes without O2, 5 Days without water, etc. but also agree that this should not be interpreted to mean that you want to act NOW, not get into the mindset of waiting for the emrgency to come to you.

My activity list is similar:

-Day 1

Before I go to sleep the first night, I will scout a good location and build a debris shelter insulated enough to get me though the night.

Once done that, and again, before I sleep, I will get a fire started, and put good fire wood in the shelter to dry for future use.

Once done that, I will seek to purify water, but this can wait if needed for the next morning.

-Day 2

Purify available water on hand by means available.

Set out distress markers, signals, etc. Plan for large floating distress marker in lake if one is nearby.

Set up rain water collection facilities.

Plan foraging, trapping, and hunting. Test/consume food readily available in immediate area.

Continue to collect fire wood supplies in excess of planned daily burn. Include readily available smoke signal materials if aircraft should be heard in the area.

-Day 3

Implement foraging, trapping, and hunting plan, including constructing tools, traps, etc. In the process, explore the area looking for means or rescue, as well as means of survival.

Enhance and fortify shelter.

-Day 4 and on

Review foraging, trapping, and hunting plan from lessons learned the previous day.

Continue to collect/construct tools, markers, other assets while enhancing survival potential in other ways as needed.


My kit (real life) that helps to support the above activities:

1 L Nalgen bottle, containing inside:
Chlorine Water Purification drops
Day/Night signal mirror
Survival reflective blanket
Cordage
Folding knife
Wire Saw
Lighters (2)
Matches
Magnesium fire starter
Soup and Sugar Cubes (looking to improve here)
Fishing Kit
Sewing kit
Button compass

I'm looking to replace the Nalgene bottle with a metal container with a screw lid that I can boil water in.

I also carry in my ruck a large 300 weight fleece blanket in day glow orange (keeps me warm at night, even if damp, and makes a great hi-vis marker panel during the day). It weighs little, but is a bit bulky.

NousDefionsDoc
04-28-2004, 17:48
Reaper,
That pocket survival kit looks pretty good to me too. Good starter kit. Need to change the container and add some stuff, but not bad at all. Been nice to have back in the day at MACKALL.

Bill Harsey
04-28-2004, 20:05
Hey c'mon guys, I gave you all a great survival clue back there, stealing food from other critters. You southern boys can wade in up to the family jewells in your water. Come on up here and show me how that's done would you? You can use that glacier just up stream to sun dry yourself on after your stuffed with trout.

The Reaper
04-28-2004, 20:33
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Hey c'mon guys, I gave you all a great survival clue back there, stealing food from other critters. You southern boys can wade in up to the family jewells in your water. Come on up here and show me how that's done would you? You can use that glacier just up stream to sun dry yourself on after your stuffed with trout.

Bill:

I know, where you come from, eatin' roadkill is an accepted and necessary practice, but my family is trying to leave that chapter in our past.

'Bout July, that glacier will sound pretty good!

TR

Sire24657
05-06-2004, 14:49
Interesting thread; keep it going!!

When I begin to take my son into the deep woods in N. CA., these are things I hope to make him think about if something were to happen.

Keep it up, you pros!!

Thanks,

Sire

Razor
05-10-2004, 14:42
Ok, time to try to breathe some life back into this thread.

Last post of mine, I listed the bare essentials I would want to have in the survival situation that TR proposed. Now, I'd like to expand the discussion a bit further and discuss additional equipment I'd carry to make life in that situation a bit more bearable.

If I could bring a small pocket/pouch survival kit, I'd probably bring along the kit I already have assembled and take with me when I'm going anywhere outside my normal commute. The kit is as follows:

Inside a Witz "Keep It Safe" waterproof, buoyant case:
5 windproof/waterproof matches in sealed plastic pouch
Spark-Lite flint stiker
4 Coughlin's wax-impregnated fire starters
2 "trick" birthday candles
Wire saw w/ swivels and split rings
1 Victorinox slim-handled 2-blade pocketknife
2 X-acto knife blades
15 iodine water purification tablets
1 Gerber sealing baby bottle liner
5 sqft of heavy-duty aluminum foil
10 ft of 3ft wide duct tape
Luminous Brunton button compass
White Photon III LED light
2 6ft coils of brass snare wire
3 sizes of heavy-duty needles
2 large safety pins
2 small safety pins
30ft of monofilament fishing line
6 fishing hooks of various sizes
4 fishing swivels
6 split-shot BB sinkers
1 large fishhook/gaff
3 butterfly closures
3 1" x 3" adhesive bandages
1 0.9g packet of triple antibiotic ointment
2 Betadine 10% providone-iodine swabs
2 2"x3" pieces of Rite-In-The-Rain paper
1 pencil stub
1 2"x3" Itoya magnifying lens
AMK Pocket Survival Pak laminated instruction sheet

The above kit can be carried alone, or combined in the pouch below:

Inside a Paraclete Small (5"x5"x2") GP pouch:
Small survival kit from above
Camillus CUDA EDC folding knife (changing to a Spyderco Endura)
Silva Landmark compass
35mm film canister with windproof/waterproof matches, tinders and striker
Bic lighter
Boy Scout flint and striker
Red Photon II LED light
Dorcy AAA LED flashlight
Fox 40 whistle
50ft of 550 cord
Carabiner
Bright orange cravat
3 mini chemlites

Now, if I could carry an assault-sized ruck with me, I'd probably want to add:
Waterproof shell jacket/pants
5-button wool army sweater
Change of BDUs
Watch cap
5 pair of socks
Medicated powder (like Goldbond)
Leather glove shells with two pair wool inserts
Folding saw
More lighters
Mil-grade, tritium lensatic compass
Camp ax with at least a 24" handle
Waterproof tarp
200' 550 cord
Larger LED flashlight
Extra AA and 123 batteries
1L Nalgene bottle w/ nested cup (Maple Flag, here's your solution for a cooking container)
2 carabiners
More comprehensive medical kit to include antibiotics, several sizes of bulky dressings, elastic wraps, bandaids, tape, moleskin, a bottle of Betadine, a few tubes of Bacitracin, NSAIDs, anti-diarrhea meds, antacids, antihistamines, antimicrobial sanitizers, sutures & local pain meds, a SAM splint, several cravats, a bottle or two of multi-vitamins, a hemostat or two, and scalpel with several blades (medics/docs, what else should I have on-hand for self-Tx?)

Anyone else have ideas to share?

The Reaper
05-10-2004, 17:53
I like that list.

It addresses most of the basic needs without gold plating, and adds capability and comfort as it grows.

As a minimum, do you think you could survive (not necessarily prosper) for 60 days in Pineland with just the smallest kit?

The carabiners must be a 10th SFGA thing. I do not use mine that often, and would prefer the weight/bulk in other goods.

TR

Razor
05-10-2004, 18:02
It would not be very comfortable, but yes, I think I could survive in Pineland for two months during the time of year you stated. I could probably just get by with a little less than the things in the hard case, but I'd be a wreck at the end of it.

I added a 'biner to the small pouch kit because a) its aluminum so its pretty light, but strong, b) I have many of the tools from the pouch connected to it for accountability, and I could use it to dummycord things to me, but make them easy to remove and c) because I could use it to make a vertical haul line, a z-pulley, a rig to suspend a carcass for field dressing if I was so lucky as to kill something larger than a bunny or squirrel, etc. I tossed a couple more into the assault ruck list because I find 'em pretty handy for a number of basic pioneering-type mechanical advantage systems.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 12:19
Razor,
I like your med kit list. I don't have very good luck with the Betadine swabs, they always seem to leak. I also wouldn't worry too much about the antacids - grubs and ants never gave me indigestion. LOL

Audience, Razor has focused his med kit on most likely. You are much more likely to have a small cut become a big problem than you are to be mauled by a bear. To me, survival is a series of small tasks - done well hopefully. Don't underestimate the value of antihistimines. Rashes and bug bites can drive some people insane.

Clean water, properly preparing your food, and being careful when utlizing your knife and other implements can go a long way.

The multi-vitamins are good. They can prevent disease in long term situations. Also keep the mind sharp.

The Reaper
05-15-2004, 12:37
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I don't have very good luck with the Betadine swabs, they always seem to leak. I also wouldn't worry too much about the antacids - grubs and ants never gave me indigestion. LOL


NDD:

I always like the little 5 ml or so bottles of Betadine. Mine have seldom, if ever broken or leaked. I have been told that under emergency conditions, you can also use it for water purification and as a thyroid blocker.

Antacids have a lot of fillers and sugar, in addition to calcium, and can be an emergency source of energy.

Just my .02.

TR

Sire24657
05-26-2004, 16:17
Would it be better to have a headlamp instead of a handheld flashlight (like a Petzl, etc)?

Just a question,

Sire24657

The Reaper
05-26-2004, 17:42
Originally posted by Sire24657
Would it be better to have a headlamp instead of a handheld flashlight (like a Petzl, etc)?

Just a question,

Sire24657

Too bulky, IMHO.

Photon is about it for a 1st line PSK, I would go to a Surefire on a 2nd line light.

TR

SwedeGlocker
05-27-2004, 02:12
I couple years ago all students in our armed forces sere instructor school was asked what they was missing most during their field training(all they had was a knife). About half wanted a waterbottle and the other half wanted a container to boil in. As for me:
1. Knife, Fallkniven F1 or AI
2. Issue fire steel
3. Something to boil in
4. Nalgene Waterbottle
5. Fisching gear
6. Silva 15T Ranger Compass

Allways when i am in uniform i carry the following:
Fallkniven F1, issue firesteel, matches, Silva 15T Ranger Compass, Garmin GPS, Nalgene bottle, small survival kit, A Blow out kit and a small personal medical kit(Blister, cuts and feel happy meds), primus stove, Petzl Tactica, surfire 6V and ASP Led light, cord and spare batteries.

When i attend staff meetings and things like that i keep it in a small daypack. My daypack have a camelback Storm in it.

Team Sergeant
11-02-2004, 11:19
Found it....

Razor
11-02-2004, 14:23
Found what?

Team Sergeant
11-02-2004, 16:20
Found what?

Admin stuff, I had to "tag" this thread so I could find it again.... don't make me 'splain it, again... :cool:

Jo Sul
11-02-2004, 16:26
When i attend staff meetings and things like that i keep it in a small daypack. My daypack have a camelback Storm in it.

When I attend staff meetings I bring a pillow, or no-doze if I am expected to participate.

Razor
11-02-2004, 17:09
Admin stuff, I had to "tag" this thread so I could find it again.... don't make me 'splain it, again... :cool:

Roger, Team Daddy. 1, 2, 3 - 1; 1, 2, 3 - 2; 1, 2, 3... :)

Martin
11-03-2004, 07:12
If I was able to get all this done before nightfall, I'd collect some more firewood, and a pile of dry leaves that I would use to stuff inside my pants and BDU coat (check for critters first) for additional insulation during the night.

I would like to add that branches, from e.g. spruce or pine trees, is good to use as padding of floor/bed. The insulation stops heat from dissipating.

To keep warmth while sleeping, it is a good idea to not have much too tight on you, as in actually wearing the coat. Instead curl up and cover yourself with as many layers as you can.

Source is FBU-Ungdom (Volunteer Leadership Education Youth, military affiliated).

Sire24657
12-02-2004, 20:52
Interesting...

My 11 year-old daughter just showed me a project she is working on for school: she has to live in the wilderness for one month. "List the things you would take with you and what you have to do to survive. You have a cabin with a fireplace but no electricity, no running water, but a stream is nearby."

What does she bring with her and what does she have to do to live for the month?

I am giving her a bit of time to work on this herself before I interject....

I think it will be interesting to see what she puts down before I give her some thinking tidbits....

Sire24657

Jo Sul
12-03-2004, 07:36
I'd bring my fishing gear and a cooler full of beer. Everything else is optional.

The Reaper
12-03-2004, 08:06
All you really need are food, water, shelter, and fire.

The tools to provide those are up to her, if she is not permitted to bring food herself.

With what she is given, knowledge, appropriate clothing, a knife, a fire starter, and something to boil water/cook in is all she really needs to survive. Some cordage would be a nice addition, but is not absolutely necessary.

Some kids would probably require a CONEX to hold all of the junk they think they need.

TR

Sire24657
12-03-2004, 09:00
I agree that that is all she needs. The assignment says that she can bring whatever she wants, as long as it fits in a helicopter. I give her advice as she tells me what she thinks.

I am trying to forcefeed her that the most important things are food, shelter (which is given in the form of the cabin), water (the stream), and clothing (she brings that in).

She says she needs a pot to boil water (she learned that from me watching "Survivor), a knife (aaahh, my daughter), a gun to hunt with, she brought the fishing pole, but says she needs to find bait.... All in all a good start for her, I think.

I just need to keep her in the mindset of what she would have to do to live out there.

Do you have any recommendations on how to do that?

Bill Harsey
12-03-2004, 09:12
Out here (in Oregon) we have a civilian helicopter called the S-64 Skycrane for ariel logging and firefighting. It has a 25,000 lb rated lift capacity.

Your daughter should do just fine.

Razor
12-03-2004, 09:12
We talking a MD-500 or an MI-26 for a helicopter? :)

The Reaper
12-03-2004, 09:51
I agree that that is all she needs. The assignment says that she can bring whatever she wants, as long as it fits in a helicopter. I give her advice as she tells me what she thinks.

I am trying to forcefeed her that the most important things are food, shelter (which is given in the form of the cabin), water (the stream), and clothing (she brings that in).

She says she needs a pot to boil water (she learned that from me watching "Survivor), a knife (aaahh, my daughter), a gun to hunt with, she brought the fishing pole, but says she needs to find bait.... All in all a good start for her, I think.

I just need to keep her in the mindset of what she would have to do to live out there.

Do you have any recommendations on how to do that?

The most important thing she will have is good common sense, and knowledge. If I knew in advance I was entering this situation, I would study survival, field medicine, do an area study of the general location, and plan off of a map of the actual area. I would also get a medical and dental check-up, and take a double basic load of any needed meds, and multivitamins.

The helicopter weight allowance changes the equation completely. With that weight allowance, I would relook the load to multiple rucks and bags, and plan on humping them from the LZ to the cabin.

For fire, I would take several butane lighters, and some tinder. Is firewood readily available?

A compass and map is a must. Also a good watch.

For a month, you can carry enough food to survive in a very large ruck, providing she likes rice, beans, cornmeal, oatmeal, powdered milk, oil, salt, sugar, packaged meat, etc. An all game and fish diet will get pretty boring, pretty quickly, even if you are successful. I would bring a ruck and several kit bags of food and gear.

If she is set on catching food, a firearm is pretty inefficient, unless the area has a lot of large game, which equals large predators. Stick with fishing (nets and traps work well) and snaring or trapping game for food. Plenty of Cordage and wire for traps and snares. Firearm is only going to be helpful for self defense, or large game, though a good .22LR pistol is handy for running a trap line. If she is in an area with dangerous game, she needs the most powerful weapon she can use well. For game, she will need a knife that works well for skinning. Does she know how to catch and prepare game? More things to study in advance. I would also take a Leatherman tool, if at all possible, and a camp axe for wood collecting and large game prep. A stone for sharpening (and some good instruction so no injuries occur). A hacksaw blade and maybe a file.

She does not need bait if she takes lures. Sounds as if they will let her bring well over 100 lbs. of gear, so whatever fishing she knows, be it fly, pole, or net will work.

I would bring an MSR stove and fuel, a camping pot and frying pan, ZIPLOCs, aluminum foil, and a mess kit with cup. Also a water purifier and an assortment of water bladders.

A sleeping bag appropriate for the climate.

She will need a first aid kit with instructions, and a small wilderness med book.

Don't forget a small notebook and pencil.

A roll of toilet paper, a small plastic trowel (or an e-tool), toothpaste and toothbrush, and personal hygiene items could be useful, along with a small mirror.

Consider a number of light sources, from a Photon, to a head lamp, to a high intensity LED light like the Surefire, and possibly a lantern.

Maybe a multiband shortwave radio with rechargeable batteries and a solar panel. Perhaps a very small instrument, like a harmonica.

A roll of duct tape for repairs, maybe a tarp, ground cloth, or some Visqueen. I like to carry a film cannister with small nails, eye hooks, wire, tacks, screws, needles and thread, etc. I usually wrap it with fishing line or fine snare wire, covered by several feet of electrical tape.

She would need to set up a daily routine, and stick with it. Is she expecting to be rescued at some point, or is it a scheduled pick-up? If no rescue or signalling gear required, that is more space for everything else.

Most tasks would involve food gathering and prep, water gathering and processing, maintaining/improving the cabin and taking care of herself. Keeping a journal is helpful for a number of reasons.

Hope that helps.

TR

Sire24657
12-03-2004, 11:24
I really appreciate the advice. I will go over this with her this weekend, then go over it with my son as well.

Thanks again, TR,

Sire24657

Roguish Lawyer
12-03-2004, 11:54
Out here (in Oregon) we have a civilian helicopter called the S-64 Skycrane for ariel logging and firefighting. It has a 25,000 lb rated lift capacity.

If that's the limit, I'm taking a loaded RV. :D

Sire24657
03-16-2005, 14:08
I was hoping that this interesting situation could be brought up again; it is an interesting discussion that I feel could be touched on more...

Sire24657

jbour13
03-16-2005, 14:56
Nothing to add except tweezers, I have a knack of attracting little critters and splinters.

I know have another reason to spend money. Thanks for the input all.

ZoneOne
03-19-2005, 15:58
A lot of good information in this thread.

My question is this...

Food.

In a survival situation as described in the "Pinelands" are you relying on having a firearm to hunt with?

If not, what are you doing for food. Are you eating game or bugs?

I'm not sure what they teach in SERE but are you tracking and trapping animals, or are you making improvised weapons such as spears or even a bow and arrow if possible.

I know everyone isn't a Tom Brown.
I'd like to hear different methods.

As always, thx

jatx
03-19-2005, 16:04
ZoneOne, I guess you didn't read my thread about hiking with "friends". :D

The Reaper
03-19-2005, 16:07
I asked you what you would need.

Do you need a firearm to get game?

I think that traps and snares are much more efficient, along with fishing.

A .22LR can come in handy for putting down dangerous game in traps if you need it, though a club or spear will work just as well.

You can also forage for plants and insects, if you know how.

TR

ZoneOne
03-19-2005, 18:10
ZoneOne, I guess you didn't read my thread about hiking with "friends".

:-) Good read

_______________

First thing I was told to get immediately before you go to achieve the 4 steps needed to survive is a throwing stick, something heavy enough that it could kill small game upon impact.

Once you got it, go on to make shelter, gather fire wood, food or what not and if anything runs in front of you... throw the stick at it and hopefully you can hit it and then you've gotten a free meal and didn't use much energy.



-- Q? anyone know how to flint nap?
im learning, but I've got too many cuts on my hands after wiping my legs down : :(

mfos2
03-19-2005, 18:23
I'm not trying to sound like I know much about anything, but my father used to take me out camping for weeks when I was kid, and he tried to instill in my that as long as you have a blade and drinkable water, you are going to be able to get along. Those lessons have me always carrying a knife on me at all times, and a hatchet and halizone pills in my jeep.

Tom Brown has a story in one of his books about taking down a deer with a knife, it's a good story. I think it was a little harder than he wanted it to be, but he got er done.

I think for me I would want my hatchet, my old as crap case mini trapper, and something to make the water good. With that I can make shelter, make fire, make traps or bows and arrows(provided i can find some turkey feathers lying around, and drink.

Sounds like fun.

The Reaper
03-19-2005, 18:26
:-) Good read

...if anything runs in front of you... throw the stick at it and hopefully you can hit it and then you've gotten a free meal and didn't use much energy.



I have never, ever seen game taken that way. I think you will go hungry if you count on that technique. I would consider cutting a GP walking stick/spear first.

I have seen a Honduran soldier knock a flushed bird out of the air with a well-thrown rock.

TR

jatx
03-19-2005, 18:33
I think for me I would want my hatchet, my old as crap case mini trapper, and something to make the water good. With that I can make shelter, make fire, make traps or bows and arrows(provided i can find some turkey feathers lying around, and drink. Sounds like fun.

I see from your profile that you are quitting college because of the "liberals". Before you pull the trigger, you might sign up for a couple physical anthropology and archaeology courses. I had a professor at UT Austin teach me how to make a hand axe and spear thrower the "old way" over beers once, and those could prove useful in the situation you describe. The spear thrower, in particular, is deadly and very accurate when used properly. You can use your new hand axe to make one. ;)

ZoneOne
03-19-2005, 18:38
I think you will go hungry if you count on that technique.

It's not so much complete reliance on one specific technique.

But what I was told makes sense.

Taking a "throwing stick" with you when you go for water or wood to make shelter/fire makes sense in my opinion.

While I've never seen it work either, I would try it in a real survival situation.

You're idea of a spear is great but I think too much energy is being spent right off the bat to carve a spear.

Picking up a stick that you can later burn seems just plain simple to me.

I have seen a Honduran soldier knock a flushed bird out of the air with a well-thrown rock.

I think the same idea applies to the "throwing stick" -- anyone who has been out in the woods surviving or just camping has seen a squirrel or rabbit run out in front of them. A well thrown stick could take it out, making a free meal. But like anything it would take practice or a natural born ability to throw accurately

mfos2
03-19-2005, 18:42
I see from your profile that you are quitting college because of the "liberals". Before you pull the trigger, you might sign up for a couple physical anthropology and archaeology courses. I had a professor at UT Austin teach me how to make a hand axe and spear thrower the "old way" over beers once, and those could prove useful in the situation you describe. The spear thrower, in particular, is deadly and very accurate when used properly. You can use your new hand axe to make one. ;)


LOL I guess I should change that in my profile. I'm not really quitting in the give up sense of the word. I'm finishing up the semester. I wouldn't let them have all my money for nothing. I have a degree already I have just been adding to it.

By hand made axe do you refer to making one out of flint? I have made one. It looks like it was done by a retarted rabbit. Arrow head making is one of my hobbies. It's very frustrating, but if you make a nice piece it's totally worth it.

One of these days I'll be good at it. Untill them I have to live with sliced up hands and pieces of flint getting in my eyes.

M

Razor
03-21-2005, 13:37
I think the same idea applies to the "throwing stick" -- anyone who has been out in the woods surviving or just camping has seen a squirrel or rabbit run out in front of them. A well thrown stick could take it out, making a free meal. But like anything it would take practice or a natural born ability to throw accurately

Its certainly a technique. Feel free to stake your life on it; I'll focus on something else I've actually seen work, and pretty well at that.

72_Wilderness
04-14-2005, 23:45
What will you cut with? TR

If you have fire, from the glasses. You can burn through whatever you need to cut. Slow and primative but it works, sort of.

The Reaper
04-15-2005, 08:35
If you have fire, from the glasses. You can burn through whatever you need to cut. Slow and primative but it works, sort of.


I want to see you gut game and clean fish with fire.

Do you have a lot of survival experience?

TR

72_Wilderness
04-15-2005, 22:31
TR, I said it works sort of, sorry I wasn't more clear. I was meaning that it would work for cutting through wood, rope, and other such related things. I see your point about the cleaning of game.

Do you have a lot of survival experience?

I am still alive. :D
If you mean like actual in-the-field experience, it would be safe to say that you have done more than I have.
As far as my training goes, I can proudly say that I earned the Wilderness Survival Merit badge through the Boy Scouts of America and I have read parts of an Air Force Survival Manual. I know it is nothing compared to what you have been thruogh and have been taught and learned, but it is a good start; don't you think?

The Reaper
04-15-2005, 22:46
TR, I said it works sort of, sorry I wasn't more clear. I was meaning that it would work for cutting through wood, rope, and other such related things. I see your point about the cleaning of game.

I am still alive. :D
If you mean like actual in-the-field experience, it would be safe to say that you have done more than I have.
As far as my training goes, I can proudly say that I earned the Wilderness Survival Merit badge through the Boy Scouts of America and I have read parts of an Air Force Survival Manual. I know it is nothing compared to what you have been thruogh and have been taught and learned, but it is a good start; don't you think?

I think if I was a 17 year old, I would be lurking here unless I had some expertise or knowledge that would be valuable. I certainly would not argue survival with an experienced SF soldier.

I would not walk around my house without a knife in my pocket, much less attempt an extended survival period without one. I would love to see you get by in the woods for 60 days without one though.

I think that you are fairly well trained for 17, in this day and age. Most of those here who grew up in a rural area 30 or 40 years ago could teach you a lot, if you would listen.

Think about it.

TR

72_Wilderness
04-16-2005, 00:19
TR, I was not trying to argue any survival point, I was only trying to provide a different angle on how to cut something such as rope or wood. I would rather have a axe, saw or knife but in situations like the one described we have to make do with what we have.

“I would not walk around my house without a knife in my pocket.” I carry a knife at almost all possible times unless the law prohibits it.

“I would love to see you get by in the woods for 60 days without one though.” It would be a difficult challenge and very much a noteworthy accomplishment if it is done.

“I think that you are fairly well trained for 17, in this day and age.” Thank you, but I know that there is much more for me to learn. Much to learn this young Jedi does. Much to teach the old Jedi can.

“Most of those here who grew up in a rural area 30 or 40 years ago could teach you a lot, if you would listen.

Think about it.”

I am listening, (I admit I did something extremely dumb, I posted before I read the entire thread. That method takes all the fun out reading on this site, so I will read the entire thread before I post again.)

TR, I know you are busy and I would not want to become a bother, but I would really like to hear what you have to talk about on this subject more in depth, based on the post I have read it is safe to say that you are good in the woods. If my math is correct I assume that you are talking about yourself and others?

It took a bit of time but reading everyone’s input was worth it.

One item two uses with a bit of rigging. If you magnetize the needle and place it in water, preferably in a cup or something you can move, you have a compass. Only a slight problem, that is fixable, of knowing north and south, other than that it is good as any other compass (so long as the magnetism holds on the needle.)

ZoneOne
10-10-2005, 01:49
There's a show out now on the Science Channel (part of Discovery) called Surivor Man.

The guy is a survival expert and seems to be similar to Tom Brown Jr.
Scenarios are portrayed for the sake of entertainment and a plot. He films himself for a week.

He only carries few equipment, stuff you would normally have in any situation.

Pretty interesting show, any survival enthusiasts out there might want to check it out.

Usually comes on around 9pm EST on Fridays.

Team Sergeant
10-10-2005, 08:54
There's a show out now on the Science Channel (part of Discovery) called Surivor Man.

The guy is a survival expert and seems to be similar to Tom Brown Jr.


Expert might be a little stretched when assigned to this guy. I was very unimpressed with his airplane crash survival episode, he almost didn't make it, another day or two and he would have been dead. Great show for the empty headed MTV crowd. :rolleyes:

Team Sergeant

longtab
10-10-2005, 10:45
Expert might be a little stretched when assigned to this guy. I was very unimpressed with his airplane crash survival episode, he almost didn't make it, another day or two and he would have been dead. Great show for the empty headed MTV crowd. :rolleyes:

Team Sergeant

I watched that episode last night with the wife. Disclamer or no disclamer someone is gonna follow his Darwin-istic lead right into the wilderness and become a human popsicle. Some people will do anything for a buck.

ZoneOne
10-10-2005, 13:37
Watch again, his Plane Crash episode was one of the worst I've seen.

By expert I was more meaning he had a lot of skill in the art of, tracking, trapping, friction fire, and the knowledge of plants and trees (ex. what is good to eat, what bark lights up better)

He's been all around the world surviving in harsh conditions for 7 days on his own. I think he is qualified to be considered an expert.
______________________________________________

"I was very unimpressed with his airplane crash survival episode, he almost didn't make it, another day or two and he would have been dead. "

Care to go into further detail?

Martin
10-10-2005, 14:01
ZoneOne, not to be rude or anything, but you may want to search for a thread on alpine mountaineering to get a different perspective on how these gentlemen consider civilian 'experts'.

Martin

Sten
10-10-2005, 15:29
Post removed by poster.

Sorry I was not thinking when I posted in here.

Cheers,

Sten.

Team Sergeant
10-10-2005, 15:32
Watch again, his Plane Crash episode was one of the worst I've seen.

By expert I was more meaning he had a lot of skill in the art of, tracking, trapping, friction fire, and the knowledge of plants and trees (ex. what is good to eat, what bark lights up better)

He's been all around the world surviving in harsh conditions for 7 days on his own. I think he is qualified to be considered an expert.
______________________________________________

"I was very unimpressed with his airplane crash survival episode, he almost didn't make it, another day or two and he would have been dead. "

Care to go into further detail?


Zoneone,

I’m not going to play your jerry springer lets prey on the stupid people game. The guy is not a survival expert by any stretch of the imagination.

“Scientific American” March 2005 issue, an “Ask the Experts” question. “How long can a person survive without food?” Answer from a knowledgeable physician in this very field and I quote, “Without liquid or foods people typically perish after 10 – 14 days.” Alan D. Lieberson, M.D.

This guy is producing another MTV level reality show. Seven days without food or water as a “real” expert said, would not likely kill him. If and when he survives for months on end then and only then would I consider him an “expert” in the field of survival.

You really should do more reading and less watching of the TV. (I actually watched this episode only because it was on the “Scientific Channel”, I didn’t watch it all because it did not take long to figure out it was pure BS, but great for 12 year olds actually.) I would place this guys abilities right up there with a boy scout.

And to answer your question, yes I've been to a Special Forces survival school/schools, to include winter, desert and jungle survival. Oh and the schools I attended incorporated surviving while being hunted by really bad men. :eek:

Team Sergeant
(Once survived six months without beer in a hostile environment!Desert Storm)

longtab
10-10-2005, 16:52
Care to go into further detail?

Heck why not. I’ll go into further detail.

I was raised in Alaska not as a city kid, but as an Alaskan. And after having personally taught civilian "survival" courses in the Arctic between my first and second stints in the Army I can validate TS's statement that 'Surivor Man' wasn't holding his own against the elements and would at best have laid in the woods for maybe another two days or so before paying for his disrespect of an unforgiving environment. Ever read Jack London’s “To Build a Fire”?

Surivor Man's skills "in the art of, tracking, trapping, friction fire, and the knowledge of plants and trees (ex. what is good to eat, what bark lights up better)" were at best basic skills anyone who ventures into the wild should be very familiar with. After a plane crash isn't the time to experiment with fire starting techniques. After all… what make’s a high-speed guy high-speed? Mastery of basic skills…

The first of his skills I found lacking was his priorities of work. His priorities should have been shelter, then fire, then water, then food, and then rescue (which he never addressed).

Firstly he should have taken inventory of what he had at his disposal. He was pretty amped about getting a fire going, and understandably so. But he didn't gather enough fuel for the fire, tinder, or kindling. He gathered some, but not enough. He didn't prepare the fire site adequately; he threw a chuck of aluminum on the ground for a base... that was it. He should have cleared the snow to the ground, built his fire base (ever thaw out perma-frost? Gets sorta soggy), built a fire deflector into his already build shelter, and then used his ample supply of firewood to start a fire that would actually help keep you alive… I would rather set my head on fire than get up in the middle of the night to find wood to keep a fire alive. Keep the fire alive and it will keep you alive. ANYWAY, He finally gets the fire going thru a liberal use of av-fuel. Here's a piece of UBI (Useless Bit 'o Info), all those little branches he kept snapping off as he walked thru the woods... that's kindling, use it. In cold environments don't waste time using (dulling) and axe for firewood. You should "club" low-lying branches (squaw wood) off the trees, because the tree's sap is brittle and will snap with little effort... conservation of effort. At least later he eventually prepared some char-cloth, albeit a few pieces.Luckily he maintains the fire (little victories) as he turns his attention to shelter.

Meanwhile its getting dark, and he still didn't have adequate shelter for the night. So onto his most important task in the Arctic… shelter. The plane as shelter? Come on... have you ever decided to wait in the car at the shopping center with the heat off in the winter? You get cold VERY fast. He was in an evergreen forest! All that snow and all those trees... he should have lived like a king. He should have moved back into the trees twenty meters or so. I won’t go in into the plethora of shelters he could have made, I will simply address one we’re all familiar with… the lean-to. Everyone has made at least one in the life even if it was made from sofa cushions. All he needed to do was get one sturdy pole to used as a cross member and lash it (gotta know knots, or tie a lot) between two trees. Take your firewood-fetching club and start wacking down evergreen boughs. Enough for ideally 18” of compacted boughs on the top of the shelter and the bottom (which you have excavated of snow). Not enough time or daylight? Ok skimp a little on each and add more in the morning. He should have slept very comfortably tucked back in the woods in his lean-to with the radiant heat of his fire being reflected into the shelter from the. Instead he sorta improved his air-plane shell buy rearranging a few pieces and using his jacket (!) as a door. Not the best use of a wool jacket.

Let’s address water… eating snow? NO. He even said you’re not supposed to, but opted rather to lower his core temperature. Melt ice… conservation of effort. Ya ever melt snow? You don’t get alotta bang for the buck. He was trying to chop his way to fish and water away from the shoreline. The ice is thinner near the shore anyway so chop there. But do it with a better tool than an axe. He should/could have fashioned a 6’ long ice pick to aide in the process… conservation of effort. Then take a few chunks of ice, stuff them in a sock or a bag made from the skin of the plane, hang it next to the fire over a vessel and melt the ice. Then drink the water. Not a lot of wasted effort since you’re already in your shelter getting warm, entertained by keeping the fire stoked, and plotting you next move towards rescue escape.

Food… seven days. Hmm… tough call. I would spend the evening in my shelter making snares clubs and a spear while sipping pine needle tea. In the morning I would set the snares out and do a little foraging. Food can be foraged, but traps require the skill of construction and scheme of emplacement.

So I’ve just set out my snares, chewed on some pine tree meat, gathered more firewood, improved, maybe put up a shadow-stick compass for poops-&-giggles… now what? Well you’re in a survival situation still… get rescued! Start constructing static signals, build three (int’l distress number) signal tepees, drag the carcass of the plane onto the ice and clear the snow from around the base, lay some pine boughs out on the lake too… get seen! Survival ain’t sitting in an airplane feeling sorry for yourself procrastinating the walk out if need be, or not improving your immediate situation. If it took a year to get rescued he should be found with a cabin and a boat dock and a smokehouse for fish. Oh you are walking out? Gather enough supplies, walk for a day, stop, do it all again, and repeat until you’re back to civilization. And then try to not get mugged at 7-11 or die in a car wreck.

One last (yeah, yeah, I know...) point. Make tools for specific tasks. Don’t misuse an axe and risk breaking the handle, or misuse it and injure yourself. Make clubs, spears, snares, atlatl’s or whatever, just use them in a safe manner so you don’t cause injury to yourself. Did you see in the episode where he could have cut himself trying to rip a piece of the plane by hand? And then he tried it again! And he rarely wore his mittens during the day. Clothes are shelter too, and he kept taking them off. That’s right, because he didn’t have gloves. Well if you’re going into the Arctic wear thin “contact” gloves so skin never has to touch anything especially metal.

If anything his lack of appreciation for the environment kicked up a few ideas in people’s minds. Maybe his show gets more people interested in “survival” skills, and that’s good. You need to know how to survive in any environment… in the city, on the farm, in the woods, on the water, desert, etc. Survival is living. And the skills you acquire will help you survive. He should of at least used the Boy Scout motto as a guideline… “Be Prepared.”

And to caveat Team Sergeant… it IS a different game altogether when you are having to survive while being hunted. TS, I don’t know if I could have survived six months without beer. :confused:

My 2¢, and then some.

CPTAUSRET
10-10-2005, 17:07
longtab:

Great post! Spot on!

I don't believe I ever went six months w/out beer.

Terry

jatx
10-10-2005, 17:43
Longtab,

Now that's how you resurrect a thread from near-death! Huzzah!

ZoneOne
10-11-2005, 10:59
Thanks for the post longtab,

Like I said, the episode we are referring to was terrible compared to the rest. Other episodes show greater skill and knowledge, but I retract my statement of claiming him as an expert.
"He was in an evergreen forest! All that snow and all those trees... he should have lived like a king"
I agree on the shelter he made, with all the evergreens, he could have made something better and warmer :-) I've taken a winter survival course, though I was cold all the time (I'm from Florida) once I learned proper shelters I was sleeping comfortably enough. He claimed to wake up every 15 minutes because of the cold, that would have killed him if he kept on.

Survival skills are something I enjoy learning and practicing, so I have taken a liking to this show simply because it's actually something to watch on t.v. compared to all the crap. I think though, he may "dumb down" his show to give the average joe an idea of what it would really be like. Maybe, just a thought

If you've got time, keep watching, you may or may not find humor in watching him try and "survive"

Team Sergeant
10-11-2005, 15:27
Thanks for the post longtab,

Like I said, the episode we are referring to was terrible compared to the rest. Other episodes show greater skill and knowledge, but I retract my statement of claiming him as an expert.


Its the same reason they don't place Rangers, SEALS and Special Forces personnel on "Fear Factor", it would get real boring not being able to "scare" anyone. :D

longtab
10-11-2005, 15:54
Survival skills are something I enjoy learning and practicing, so I have taken a liking to this show simply because it's actually something to watch on t.v. compared to all the crap. I think though, he may "dumb down" his show to give the average joe an idea of what it would really be like. Maybe, just a thought

If you've got time, keep watching, you may or may not find humor in watching him try and "survive"

I'm more of a Playboy's The Girls Next Door guy myself, but I will definately tune in and see what Survivor-Man does to himself next.

ZoneOne
10-11-2005, 16:24
Its the same reason they don't place Rangers, SEALS and Special Forces personnel on "Fear Factor", it would get real boring not being able to "scare" anyone


I think they did have a Ranger on once and he failed at the eating "nasty stuff" contest. Maybe I'm just making stuff up in my head :confused:

Also - it was a couple of years ago - but there was a T.V. show I think aired on USA that had Navy SEALs preforming fake operations and stuff like that.
All I remember is Cade Courtley

Edit

upon a quick search I found the name - "Combat Missions"

BTW I appreciate all the replies and information given

HOLLiS
10-11-2005, 21:31
Zone, I like TV and Movies too, BUT!! They are made for entertainment and any actual connection to reality is purely accidental. Yes, even the news is entertainment.

frostfire
10-12-2005, 23:03
Its the same reason they don't place Rangers, SEALS and Special Forces personnel on "Fear Factor", it would get real boring not being able to "scare" anyone. :D

concur.
If anyone try applying for the show, there's a long and detailed screening questionnaire asking for prior service, origins etc.

I'd imagine they will also reject participants coming from rural areas of Udon Thani or Guangzhou. When it comes to eating the nasty stuff, these folks might ask for seconds, take the other participants share, or get a go-box. Then they'd be disqualified for not having the "factor"

stakk4
10-14-2005, 14:48
Actually right now they are casting for a "Military" episode of Fear Factor. They are looking for 1M-1F teams of AD from any brach of service. They don't mention any restrictions on SF or Rangers, etc. Although one team member does have to be female, it doesn't say that they have to have been in the same unit. So I suppose it should be conceivable for a team guy and a support chick, fresh back from the sandbox, could compete together. Reminder: a team is only as strong as its weakest link.

I'll watch that one though. :munchin


S

mbassoc2003
11-03-2005, 10:21
My kit (real life) that helps to support the above activities:

1 L Nalgen bottle, containing inside:
Chlorine Water Purification drops
Day/Night signal mirror
Survival reflective blanket
Cordage
Folding knife
Wire Saw
Lighters (2)
Matches
Magnesium fire starter
Soup and Sugar Cubes (looking to improve here)
Fishing Kit
Sewing kit
Button compass

I'm looking to replace the Nalgene bottle with a metal container with a screw lid that I can boil water in.

Salt and pepper sachets from takeaway restaurants are useful. Salt becaust your body loses it faster than you realise, and you'll need to replace it. Pepper because you may beed to flavour some critter before you eat it. :munchin

I carry a couple of roaster or microwave bags. The type you put a chicken in before you stick it in the oven. You can cary water in them and you can boil water in them over a fire. You might also want to mark the bag with 1 and 2 litre lines around it so you know where to fill it to before popping in your tabs/drops.

The Reaper
11-03-2005, 13:30
mbassoc2003:

Introduce yourself in the Introductions thread and fill out your profile, if you would.

Thanks.

TR

Spook
11-06-2005, 21:09
I think this thread is VERY informative. Great job on starting the discussion Reaper.

I'm reading through everyone else's responses first to see if I can come up with some new items before I post my list.

Will enjoy reading on...

mugwump
11-11-2005, 15:01
Hey all, first post after my intro.

An old bush pilot once told me that knowledge of how to make a fish trap and a dozen locking snares were worth their weight in gold (he carried 36 in various sizes -- eating off of snares is a numbers game). Obviously not good for the tobacco tin/back pocket kit, but exactly right for the scenario The Reaper proposed. I have no idea who these guys are, I post the link just to show what I'm talking about. http://www.nwtrappers.com/catalog/snares/thompson.asp

A correctly sized locking snare can reliably take anything from squirrels and rabbits to deer.

Edited to add:

I remembered he also said a "drowner" was easier to make if you were going to carry brass wire and not pre-made locking snares. It was easier to find tracks by the water, and thereby sites for the trap, and you were less likely to lose your catch to a predator. He said a hole dug in the bank was irresistable to many animals. I never followed his advice to learn how to do this, but I did find --> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/PDF/chpt9.pdf

The Reaper
11-11-2005, 21:14
You learn something every day.

I have never seen a drowner, great idea for fur, or traps that are checked regularly, but I doubt that meat would be very good if the animal had been dead underwater for a day ot two.

I was also surprised that a state government site tells how to trap and kill animals. You would think that PETA would have cried all over them or ALF would have burned down their website by now.

Thanks for the link!

TR

mugwump
11-12-2005, 14:30
Hey, 7th SFGA, I assumed you'd be eating nutria -- and they like water. :o

The same old brush pilot carried a beater sawed off side-by-side with slugs, for bear, and an old Ted Williams single-shot .22 with longs for caribou. He said long rifles tore up too much meat. He was definitely a proponent of shot placement.

kgoerz
11-12-2005, 15:41
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
Its the same reason they don't place Rangers, SEALS and Special Forces personnel on "Fear Factor", it would get real boring not being able to "scare" anyone.

I remember a few years back when the reality shows starting getting big USASOC put out a message banning all AD personnel from applying for these shows. Do's anyone remember this message?

one-zero
11-15-2005, 17:25
KGOERZ et al;
It's actually posted in the commander's policy section in ALL spec-ops units (Army)...Kept us out of some UFC/fighting venues as well. I do remember them using active duty 1st Grp assistance in setting up one of the "survivor" episodes though...just not as participants who could win some $$$
cheers

Bill Harsey
11-15-2005, 22:18
KGOERZ et al;
It's actually posted in the commander's policy section in ALL spec-ops units (Army)...Kept us out of some UFC/fighting venues as well. I do remember them using active duty 1st Grp assistance in setting up one of the "survivor" episodes though...just not as participants who could win some $$$
cheers

You guys get enough reality programing as it is without having to be on TV.

Had to ask my kids (5th year Latin students) what "et al" means. This place keeps making my head hurt learning new stuff.

Reaper,
Cold water in the north might help cool and keep meat edible while warm water wouldn't. I've never eaten fur or feathered game without a projectile hole in it.

frostfire
11-20-2005, 17:20
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
Its the same reason they don't place Rangers, SEALS and Special Forces personnel on "Fear Factor", it would get real boring not being able to "scare" anyone.

I remember a few years back when the reality shows starting getting big USASOC put out a message banning all AD personnel from applying for these shows. Do's anyone remember this message?
kgoerz,
IIRC, there was a reality show called Combat Mission. I can't remember whether the participant are all veterans or not, but some of them are SOF personnel. Maybe this is before the ban?

On a different (& less serious) note, one reality show I'd like to see service men & women participating is Takeshi Castle (aka. MXC). Although most of the obstacles are plain hillarious, some should belong to boot camp and/or circus.

On the survival topic, are there scenarios in Robin Sage that require survival training akin to SERE? Please disregard if this touches OPSEC or ruins the movie.

longtab
11-21-2005, 15:51
Hey all, first post after my intro.

An old bush pilot once told me that knowledge of how to make a fish trap and a dozen locking snares were worth their weight in gold (he carried 36 in various sizes -- eating off of snares is a numbers game). Obviously not good for the tobacco tin/back pocket kit, but exactly right for the scenario The Reaper proposed. I have no idea who these guys are, I post the link just to show what I'm talking about. http://www.nwtrappers.com/catalog/snares/thompson.asp

A correctly sized locking snare can reliably take anything from squirrels and rabbits to deer.

Edited to add:

I remembered he also said a "drowner" was easier to make if you were going to carry brass wire and not pre-made locking snares. It was easier to find tracks by the water, and thereby sites for the trap, and you were less likely to lose your catch to a predator. He said a hole dug in the bank was irresistable to many animals. I never followed his advice to learn how to do this, but I did find --> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/PDF/chpt9.pdf Good links mugwump.

As a high schooler growing up running a trap-line in Alaska I used a couple drowners for wolves. I would stake my trap below the high tide line, bait it, cover it so bald eagles couldn't get into it, and fetch up a drowned wolf once ever two days like clockwork.

mugwump
11-21-2005, 18:27
longtab -- Really enjoyed your AAR on Survivorman. My son, daughter and I like to dive/fish in less-traveled places and I am always harping on them to learn survival skills. My daughter and I watch Survivorman together -- that show is priceless for examples of how to kill yourself! Check out the Costa Rica one if you get a chance. It's a hoot.

mugwump
11-21-2005, 19:41
I've seen a 'wire saw' in a few lists in this thread. I used to carry one until I had to use it in anger in northern Ontario in a combined conifer and birch forest. It gummed up badly and then broke. I purchased a "Pocket ChainSaw" and have never looked back. The can it's stored in is little bigger than a can of Cope and has room for small fishing items as well. It's hard to believe how well these little buggers work until you try one. So well in fact that I'd prefer one over a hatchet. With one of these and a decent sheath knife you could make a really sturdy shelter in no time.

http://www.pocketchainsaw.com/

There's a good review at Equipped To Survive:

http://www.equipped.com/saws.htm

Bill Harsey
11-21-2005, 21:43
I've seen a 'wire saw' in a few lists in this thread. I used to carry one until I had to use it in anger in northern Ontario in a combined conifer and birch forest. It gummed up badly and then broke. I purchased a "Pocket ChainSaw" and have never looked back. The can it's stored in is little bigger than a can of Cope and has room for small fishing items as well. It's hard to believe how well these little buggers work until you try one. So well in fact that I'd prefer one over a hatchet. With one of these and a decent sheath knife you could make a really sturdy shelter in no time.

http://www.pocketchainsaw.com/

There's a good review at Equipped To Survive:

http://www.equipped.com/saws.htm
Out here in Oregon we buy those with the motors on 'em

mugwump
11-21-2005, 22:39
Out here in Oregon we buy those with the motors on 'em

Hey, I've played DOOM. Those things are dangerous.

Detcord
11-22-2005, 04:58
...I purchased a "Pocket ChainSaw"...The can it's stored in is little bigger than a can of Cope...

Oh, that brings back memories...

For some, a fresh roll of Copenhagen is considered a mandatory survival item!!!

Seriously, the can has a wax base making it not only relatively water resistant for things like matches or gunpowder, etc., but also useful for "tinder" since the wax/paper combination burns quite easily. Plus, a portion of the shiny tin lid can be cut away and used as a lure for fishing...

mugwump
11-22-2005, 12:44
For some, a fresh roll of Copenhagen is considered a mandatory survival item!!!



LOL, a fresh log of tin-top, stateside Cope is gold to some. I'd never heard of the stuff before I started sending off morale packages a coupla years ago. Now I know that logs are "born" on Tuesdays, where to look for "born" dates, and that it's best to vacuum-seal three tins to a bag (don't know why though).

That reminds me, it's Tuesday.

Gypsy
11-22-2005, 13:01
, and that it's best to vacuum-seal three tins to a bag (don't know why though).

.

I do the same, or use airtight containers. It helps to retard the aging process.

Sire24657
11-22-2005, 15:56
OK,

I have read (and contributed in the past on ) this thread; and I have another question:

If you could pack only 2 books on survival with you in your kit(s), which would they be?

Again, thanks.

Sire

Razor
11-22-2005, 16:32
US Army FM 3-05.70 (formerly FM 21-76), Survival
The Boy Scout Handbook

ZoneOne
12-04-2005, 12:07
I would agree w/ Razor,

But I would change out the Boy Scout book w/ Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival

All three would give you some great ideas to hopefully make living a little bit less stressful.

Also, in regards to traps as mentioned earlier. Does anyone have a favorite trap or one they think works best?

For relative ease, I consider the Figure 4 to be great. If you take your time you can make one with out a knife by just finding the right sticks and making a couple of well placed bends or breaks.
There are many traps out there from relatively simple to highly advanced, such as the Piaute bird trap.

Picture taken from the Tracker Trail.
http://www.trackertrail.com/survival/traps/figure4/Figure4NoKnife7701.jpg

Jack Moroney (RIP)
12-04-2005, 19:55
Also, in regards to traps as mentioned earlier. Does anyone have a favorite trap or one they think works best?

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I have used a variety of traps and snares that work well, but I choose those that work best for the animal I am after and have no particular favorite. The key to any of them is just like setting an ambush, you have to understand the target.

Jaeger1980
05-08-2006, 10:57
Don't hurt me for digging out this old thread ;)
IMO it's one of the most interesting threads for both, servicemen and civilians.

You are dropped uninjured into a remote forest environment wearing BDUs and boots. Your pockets are empty and you have no additional gear. You are non-tactical, i.e., no enemy is hunting you. It is in a Temperate climatic area, in the spring. Daytime highs are in the 70s, but at night it drops below 40. There is a natural water source of unknown potability nearby. No known shealter is available. If located, you may be rescued sooner than 60 days, but that may not happen. You are going to remain in the immediate area and not walk out for at least the next two months.

Since this isn't supposed to be a prepared camping trip I'll focus on minimalism.

What are your essential tasks? What are the priorities?

Tasks

Water: Find the nearby water source; cook some water and store it.
Staying healthy: See No.1 plus... Collect lots of wood; light a fire; build a shelter; do personal hygiene at least once a day.
Food: Build and set up traps; hunt animals; collect edible plants, berries, ...
Rescue: Build static signals which can be seen from aircrafts


What are the Minimum tools and equipment you need to survive for 60 days in this environment?

Needs-related examination

Container (aluminium): Is essential.
Knife: Is essential, too.
Flint: Is essential, too. But it could be found in this environment.
Antibiotics: The right antibiotic could become No.1 very fast in case of an infection.


... and let's see the least extensive list you feel you could survive with.

IMO, when it comes to the crunch it would be possible to survive this scenario without any tools or equipment. But that would be an experience I'm not eager to make.


(Please excuse my bad english grammar.)

The Reaper
05-08-2006, 11:29
Herr Jager:

No problem, I started this thread for people to exchange ideas.

I agree, it is possible to survive in this scenario with nothing, IF there is suitable material in the area for making fire and for making cutting tools.

Our forefathers on the frontier in the US would probably set out for a couple of months of hunting or trapping with a rifle and ammo, an axe, a knife, some cordage, a blanket, a tarp, a pot, a canteen, some flour, salt, sugar, coffee, tobacco, and a flint. That doesn't mean it would be that easy for us.

On the other hand, as you correctly note, first, identify your survival needs, then select the minimum number of items to give you the ability to meet those needs (particularly multiple use items), get the knowledge and practice to use them properly, have your mind properly focused, and you should be able to weather the event without anything worse than losing a few pounds.

I would rate the need for antibiotics much lower, though, and would prefer to take an axe or large knife and some type of line or cordage.

Thanks for your input, and stop apologizing for your English, we have native speakers here doing much worse.

TR

Team Sergeant
05-08-2006, 12:15
Flint....... or Bic lighter......

I'll take the Bic lighter. I carried a "mini" Bic lighter in my combat gear for almost 20 years. I didn't smoke. I carried it for survival reasons.

I did hear one silly reason not yo carry a bic or butane lighter because butane has a freezing point of 0 degree C.

Here's a Team Sergeant secret to all those that throw this argument on the table: put the lighter in your pocket in extreme cold weather..... If you have dropped to 0 degrees you're dead..... I'd rather not be "banging" on a flint behind enemy lines....

TS

The Reaper
05-08-2006, 12:23
TS:

Agreed, and the lighter will still make sparks, even after the butane is gone.

I keep at least one in each of my lines of gear, in my ruck, in my LCE, and one in my pocket.

A mirror would be handy for visual signaling and for other purposes as well. No batteries, pyro charges, or other single use worries, unless you break it, and the issue survival models, in all sizes are very tough.

TR

Bill Harsey
05-08-2006, 13:06
Flint....... or Bic lighter......

I'll take the Bic lighter. I carried a "mini" Bic lighter in my combat gear for almost 20 years. I didn't smoke. I carried it for survival reasons.

I did hear one silly reason not yo carry a bic or butane lighter because butane has a freezing point of 0 degree C.

Here's a Team Sergeant secret to all those that throw this argument on the table: put the lighter in your pocket in extreme cold weather..... If you have dropped to 0 degrees you're dead..... I'd rather not be "banging" on a flint behind enemy lines....

TS
sidenote, There are some who should never carry a bic lighter in their pocket while at work, like welders or those who run the risk of hot metallic spray going in the pocket.
Edited to add this link:http://www.safetyxchange.org/forum/view_post.php?pos_id=807&PHPSESSID=d4128db47f7e06b04831cc0da218e905

Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-08-2006, 14:51
sidenote, , like welders or those who run the risk of hot metallic spray going in the pocket.

Ahh yes, this brings back memories of my days as a midshipmen at the US Merchant Marine Academy. Arc welding while wearing spit shinned shoes is always not a good idea. Not only does the melted metal screw up your shine and make you fodder for the upper classmen but it goes right through the leather giving your feet that nice speckled look.:D

Tuukka
05-08-2006, 15:40
Firemaking, when it can be -35 C, your on the run and you got some matches...

MtnGoat
05-08-2006, 20:28
Firemaking, when it can be -35 C, your on the run and you got some matches...
What Tuukka no "green" Logs on the Snow for that fire.. Now thats Smoking :lifter

Great Picture

Team Sergeant
05-08-2006, 21:48
TS:

Agreed, and the lighter will still make sparks, even after the butane is gone.

I keep at least one in each of my lines of gear, in my ruck, in my LCE, and one in my pocket.

A mirror would be handy for visual signaling and for other purposes as well. No batteries, pyro charges, or other single use worries, unless you break it, and the issue survival models, in all sizes are very tough.

TR

A survival signal mirror takes 15-30 seconds to learn how to use..... It's worth a few seconds to master.....;)

TS

Ambush Master
05-08-2006, 22:04
A survival signal mirror takes 15-30 seconds to learn how to use..... It's worth a few seconds to master.....;)

TS
I've had my position verified (or defined), arrainged for exfil, called in "Danger Close" (as it is termed today) Air Support, all with the use of a Signal Mirror and commo. We did have alternate means, using said mirrors, to use in place of the RF commo.

To this day, I do not get onto an aircraft without a Signal Mirror!!!!

Later
Martin

Tuukka
05-09-2006, 06:41
What Tuukka no "green" Logs on the Snow for that fire.. Now thats Smoking :lifter

Great Picture

"green" logs, now you´ve lost me on that one ?

incommin
05-09-2006, 09:22
Break squlch once for yes; twice for no!



I've had my position verified (or defined), arrainged for exfil, called in "Danger Close" (as it is termed today) Air Support, all with the use of a Signal Mirror and commo. We did have alternate means, using said mirrors, to use in place of the RF commo.

To this day, I do not get onto an aircraft without a Signal Mirror!!!!

Later
Martin

brownapple
12-19-2006, 02:42
Small items that can be carried by anyone:

In wallet:
Tool logic credit card companion -
Provides a can opener, compass, magnifying glass, tweezers, toothpick, combo knife/saw (of limited use), screwdriver (of limited use), rulers

In a small waterproof tin in a pocket:
The pocket chainsaw, a signal mirror, dental floss, safety pins and fishhooks, a bic lighter, all weather matches, condoms (unlubricated, for water storage)

On belt:
A Leatherman tool (or comparable item)

Not much weight, easy to carry... and might make the difference between survival and non-survival...

x SF med
12-19-2006, 08:39
GH-
When I was visiting my folks in NC for Turkey day, I found a Stanley pocket tool that's pretty good - it has a 1/4 inch drive and bits, even came with 2 extra knives (not bad for beat-em-up pocket knives) - best thing - it was on sale for about $20 - (regular price $70) - it was the deal of the year for me. The tool is a little bigger than a leatherman though.

Pete
12-19-2006, 09:36
.... I found a Stanley pocket tool that's pretty good - it has a 1/4 inch drive and bits, even came with 2 extra knives (not bad for beat-em-up pocket knives) - best thing - it was on sale for about $20 ....

I like Stanley and Craftsman tools. There are some cheap tools out there that look good in the plastic but fail under use. Some of that off shore stuff has real soft steel and could fail at a poor time.

My Leatherman and Swiss Army Knives are still going strong after 30 +/- years. My five D cell mag light is still handy for checking out strange sounds at night. Added in are my two (one in the mail) SureFire Lights.

Pete

With good equipment older than most of the students:D .

x SF med
12-19-2006, 09:43
Pete-
I've got a couple of knives that could be the student's parents..... Hell I've got boots older than some of the kids.

kachingchingpow
12-19-2006, 13:17
One of the alluring aspects of Special Forces to me as a kid was the thought of spending time outdoors building snares, shelters and so on. Having spent a large portion of my life in very rural settings, I've had a chance to tinker around in the woods some. I had family in the rural mountains of PA, and the attraction grew stronger when I spent a couple of weeks each summer as an asset for the 11th Grp when they were in the area for their AT.

The Foxfire series of books come to mind as a very good read. Gosh, I remember reading them as a kid through my teens. There's some crazy stuff in them like dowsing, snake handling and square dancing. However, there's a ton of really valuable info to be had. Everything from soap making, hide tanning, moon shining to preserving foods, weaving and "other affairs of plain living." I'm not saying it's going to address what to do in the first week or so of a survival situation, but given the 60 day scope of this exercise…

For this exercise I would like:

1 pocket knife, 550 cord, duct tape combo. Never knew what this was called, but it was on me religiously when I was in the field ever since Sgt Csaba showed it to me at SFQC. The swiss army knife I carried was one of the longer than standard sized ones with a long blade, saw that works, and a can opener I think… it’s in my fishing vest now. My old Case stockman has taken it’s place in my pocket. It had a lanyard hole in the rear that I tied a 24 or so inch piece of 550 cord through. The other end was fastened to a bic lighter by wrapping a dozen or so wraps of green duct tape (trimmed to fit) around it and the lighter. Put the kife in your right pocket, thread the lighter and 550 through your front belt loops, and put the lighter in the other pocket. Just make sure you’ve got enough 550 cord so that each can be easily pulled out of the pocket and used. Damn near impossible to lose any one piece, and you have 4 items taking up a manageable amount of space.


Small fishing kit. Anyone who fly fishes is familiar with tippet spools. I have some that will fit in an empty can of Skoal. The back is hollowed out, so you can put the spool of 8-12lb mono and 30# Fireline in a plastic (not Cope) can with some goodies behind it. Spit shot, a few terrestrial pattern flies, and some bait hooks ranging from size 8 for trout and panfish to 1/0 or 2/0 for bass and cats. I would want the bait hooks with the barbs on the shank. I would plan on fishing for some small stuff at first. If the environment provided a decent size body of water, I would plan on using the gut and white underbelly to fish for larger meals like turtles and catfish. The barbs will help to keep bait that may have been hard to aquire on the hook.

Woodsmans Pal Jr. & a sharpening steel I could fit into the sheath.

A small keychain compass. The ball type floating inside of a clear lexan container. About the diameter of a dime, and can be attached to a button pocket hole with 550 cord core so it cannot be lost. Small and functional.

I wouldn’t mind having some char cloth, and a magnifying glass.

Signal mirror.

Guitar string can be thread into your boot laces if you use 550 cord.

Some other stuff, but work calls. :mad:

The Reaper
05-02-2007, 15:56
How not to do it.

Good concept, poor execution and supervision.

$3,150 to run people through the desert till they die?

TR

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269688,00.html

Records: New Jersey Man May Have Needlessly Died of Thirst on Wilderness Survival Trip
Wednesday, May 02, 2007

BOULDER, Utah —

A man died of thirst during a wilderness-survival exercise designed to test his physical and mental toughness, even though guides had water. They didn't offer him any because they did not want to spoil the character-building experience.

By Day 2 in the blazing Utah desert, Dave Buschow was in bad shape. Pale, wracked by cramps, his speech slurred, the 29-year-old New Jersey man was desperate for water and hallucinating so badly he mistook a tree for a person.

After going roughly 10 hours without a drink in the 100-degree heat, he finally dropped dead of thirst, face down in the dirt, less than 100 yards from the goal: a cave with a pool of water.

But Buschow was no solitary soul, lost and alone in the desert. He and 11 other hikers from various walks of life were being led by expert guides on a wilderness-survival adventure designed to test their physical and mental toughness.

And the guides, it turned out, were carrying emergency water on that torrid summer day.

Buschow wasn't told that, and he wasn't offered any. The guides did not want him to fail the $3,175 course. They wanted him to dig deep, push himself beyond his known limits, and make it to the cave on his own.

Nearly a year later, documents obtained by The Associated Press under the Freedom of Information Act reveal those and other previously undisclosed details of what turned out to be a death march for Buschow. They also raise questions about the judgments and priorities of the guides at the Boulder Outdoor Survival School. What matters more: the customer's welfare or his quest?

"It was so needless. What a shame. It didn't have to happen," said Ray Gardner, the Garfield County sheriff's deputy who hiked six miles to recover Buschow's body. "They had emergency water right there. I would have given him a drink."

Family members are angry.

"Down in those canyons it's like a furnace," said Rob Buschow of Glen Spey, N.Y. "I don't have my brother anymore because no one would give him water."

While regretting the tragedy, the school, known as BOSS, has denied any negligence and instead blamed Buschow, saying the security officer and former Air Force airman did not read course materials, may have withheld health information and may have eaten too heavily before leaving River Vale, N.J., for the grueling course.

Noting Buschow signed liability waivers, the school said: "Mr. Buschow expressly assumed the risk of serious injury or death prior to participating."

Garfield County authorities declined to file charges, saying there was insufficient evidence the school acted with criminal negligence. The prosecutor said participants knew they were taking a risk.

The U.S. Forest Service, however, has stopped BOSS from using Dixie National Forest for a portion of the 28-day course this summer until it gets outside advice on providing food and water. The agency said it was the first death of a participant in a BOSS survival exercise.

The Colorado-based school dates to the late 1960s. In 1994, BOSS alumnus Josh Bernstein, a New Yorker with an Ivy League education, took over marketing and administration and later became owner. He also is host of the History Channel's "Digging for the Truth," a show that takes viewers on archaeological adventures around the world.

BOSS emphasizes personal growth through adversity, and using your wits to survive. The mantra: "Know more, carry less."

BOSS has wilderness courses lasting just a few days to a month. During the 28-day survival course, held 250 miles from Salt Lake City, campers are required to hike for miles and drink what they can find from natural sources.

Tent, matches, compass, sleeping bag, portable stove, watch — all have no role. Campers are equipped with a knife, water cup, blanket and poncho and are told they could lose 20 pounds or more. Among the things they learn is how to catch fish with their hands and how to kill a sheep with a knife.

The course is intended to push people "past those false limits your mind has set for your body."

"Somewhere along the many miles of sagebrush flats, red rock canyons, and mesa tops of Southern Utah — somewhere between the thirst, the hunger and the sweat — you'll discover the real destination: yourself," BOSS says on its Web site.

Buschow had marched the arctic tundra in Greenland. And after leaving the Air Force, he worked security at U.S. bases outside the country. He recalled his days as a Boy Scout in his May 2006 application to BOSS.

"Although in the yrs since, I have continued to appreciate Mother Nature," he wrote by hand, "I still haven't ever truly immersed myself in her embrace. I fear that I'm becoming a 'comfort camper,' having never come close to looking her in the eyes."

Buschow described himself as 5-foot-7 and about 180 pounds, with a resting pulse of 66. A New York doctor checked a box declaring him fit for a survival program. Buschow signed the application, acknowledging that BOSS was not offering a "risk-free wilderness experience."

The documents obtained by the AP disclose the brief but bitter wilderness adventure of Buschow:

On July 16, he gathered here with the 11 others, including some from England and a college student who had bicycled from Maine. Most were in their 20s and 30s. They ran 1 1/2 miles so the staff could assess their conditioning.

Buschow "was not the most in-shape but not the most out of shape," recalled camper Charlie DeTar, 25, the cross-country bicyclist.

On the second day, after a cool night, the group set out around sunrise and stopped about 8:30 a.m. to dip their cups into Deer Creek in what turned out to be the only water until evening. Buschow pulled a bottle from his pack — but was warned by the staff not to fill it.

During the early phase of the expedition, participants can drink water at the source only and cannot carry it with them.

The group, led by three guides, formed a loose chain, with stronger hikers ahead of people struggling at the 6,000-foot elevation, or more than a mile above sea level.

"We didn't cover all that much distance, maybe five to six miles. We were moving slowly, a lot of up and down," DeTar said in an interview from Vermont. "You don't have food, you don't have water, so you have to move at the slowest pace of the group."

They rested periodically under pinons and junipers, all the while looking for signs of water, such as green vegetation in canyon bottoms. At least two attempts to dig for water failed.

Not everyone had close contact with Buschow, but a consensus emerges from the campers' written accounts obtained by the AP: While cheerful, encouraging and coherent at times, he was a man in deep trouble hours before he collapsed.

"We were all desperate for water," a camper wrote. "Every time (Buschow) would fall or lie down, it took a huge amount of effort to pick him back up. His speech was thick and his mouth swollen."

"Every time he continued, he'd rush ahead, often in the wrong direction and so exhausting himself even more," the camper wrote.

The sun was described as blazing, inescapable. "There were no clouds," a camper wrote.

Some people vomited that day, including a man who got sick three times — a typical misery on the rigorous course, according to BOSS. Buschow was suffering from leg cramps about 2:30 p.m. and said he was feeling "bad."

During a break, he mistook a tree for a person and said, "There she is."

"This was the first point at which I became concerned knowing that delirium happens when dehydration becomes severe," a camper wrote. Buschow "also asked if there was much air traffic that went through here, and asked if anyone had a signal mirror."

(The Forest Service, citing privacy concerns, deleted certain names from documents.)

By 7 p.m., as the sun descended and temperatures cooled a bit, the group approached a cave in Cottonwood Canyon, known to BOSS guides as a reliable source of water.

Buschow's companions were carrying his possessions for him. Within earshot of people exhilarated about the pool of water, he collapsed for the last time.

"He said he could not go on," staff member Shawn O'Neal wrote two days later in a statement ordered by the Garfield County Sheriff's Office. "I felt that he could make it this short distance and told him he could do it as I have seen many students sore, dehydrated and saying 'can't' do something only to find that they have strength beyond their conceived limits."

O'Neal didn't inform Buschow about his emergency water.

"I wanted him to accomplish getting to the water and the cave for rest," he wrote. "He asked me to go get the water for him. I said I was not going to leave him. ... Shortly thereafter I had a bad feeling and turned to Dave and found no sign of breathing."

A staff apprentice climbed to the top of a dead juniper to get reception for a cellular call to the Boulder office.

Five people took turns trying to revive Buschow while red biting ants crawled over his face. A rescue helicopter from Page, Ariz., arrived about 90 minutes after he passed out, but a defibrillator failed to jump-start his heart. Campers gathered in a circle for the news: "Dave is dead."

The Reaper
05-02-2007, 15:57
They had a moment of silence and ate almonds, sesame sticks and energy bars distributed by staff, the first food since sandwiches more than 24 hours earlier.

Buschow's death was caused by dehydration and electrolyte imbalance, according to Dr. Edward Leis, Utah's deputy chief medical examiner, who found no evidence of drugs or other factors.

DeTar, a camper who performed CPR, said no one was told that BOSS guides carried emergency water, but "I heard it slosh" in a pack.

Should it have been offered to Buschow? And if it's for an emergency, what triggers it?

"Hard to say," said DeTar, who has a master's degree from Dartmouth College and is trained in wilderness first aid. "One thing that BOSS offers you is an opportunity to push yourself physically into the red zone. ... He was 200 feet from the water. Is that the point where you give it to him? Or 500 feet?"

Bernstein, the school's owner, agreed to answer questions only by e-mail. He said BOSS instructors can give water based on their assessment of a camper's needs.

"The group appeared to be within the normal parameters we've seen on the trail over the years," Bernstein said. "Many were, understandably, tired, but morale was high and the participants were determined to continue. ... He seemed capable of completing the hike to camp that evening."

In a Feb. 27 letter to the Forest Service, Bernstein said Buschow may not have trained properly, pointing to comments he made to another camper about drinking a gallon of water a day and eating cheesesteaks to bulk up before the expedition.

His brother, Rob Buschow, said: "It's sickening when they blame the victim."

After Buschow's death, five people left the course. The six campers who completed the exercise returned to the site to leave a bouquet of foliage and a marker of stones.

"I didn't want to have the fear of the desert instilled in me because of this incident," DeTar said.

jatx
05-02-2007, 16:39
I hope that everyone involved is left destitute after the family's inevitable civil suit. What a waste of a life. :(

kgoerz
05-02-2007, 18:27
Some really good info on this thread. A lot better then most survival sights I read. This June will be the first time I will be home in warm weather in three years. Me and my kid will resume our Poncho Hooch treks into Uwharrie. I sent him a Survival book from Amazon yesterday and several post from this thread to keep him busy. First time camping he was a little concerned we didn't have a tent. Doesn't want anything to do with them since sleeping in a Lean Shelter or Poncho Hooch.
Might have to venture into Pisgah if we get brave enough. Started out around Bragg, then moved on to Uwharrie. He is ten now so he can hump his ruck a little better. Are packs are only about 20 to 25 pounds for three days. Trick is to find an area with available water. Water is heavy.
Uwharrie is great because it is so under used. You can camp where ever you want to. I think certain parts of Pisgah don't allow dogs and free range camping. Nothing turns me off more then rules and regulations. I would never hike thru these areas unarmed no matter what. But Uwharrie seems to have a don't ask we don't want to know policy. At least that was my impression when the Ranger winked at me after asking their carry policy;)

Fiercely Loyal
07-17-2007, 23:37
Now what about you non-SF guys I see lurking in here. Have you ever been out camping for a few days? Got anything to add or ask?


Sir, A quality fixed blade knife is the only thing I believe I'd need.

Although most times I will carry a poncho, 100+ feet of 550 cord, mirror, compass, canteen cup, magnesium fire starter, field dressing, local map, vs-17 panel portion, GPS with spare batteries, and a Ruger Mark II pistol in holster with 100 rds and spare mag. All of this was in a small day bag.

The Reaper
07-18-2007, 00:06
Sir, A quality fixed blade knife is the only thing I believe I'd need.

Congratulations.

Very few people can start a fire, trap and cook game, make cordage, collect, purify, and carry water, repair clothing and shelter, treat injuries and illnesses, signal, navigate, etc. with just a blade.

TR

82ndtrooper
07-18-2007, 11:35
Congratulations.

Very few people can start a fire, trap and cook game, make cordage, collect, purify, and carry water, repair clothing and shelter, treat injuries and illnesses, signal, navigate, etc. with just a blade.

TR

I watch Bear Grylls. :p "Man vs Wild"

If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it is to never stop thinking, to decide and to act on that decision. Most everything you will need can be found in the wild. What ever your needs, nutrition, hydration, shelter, and fire can be made with ingenuity, and a desire to survive.

Patience is almost alway's a virture. I've learned a lot from this thread.

Fiercely Loyal
07-19-2007, 03:33
and a desire to survive.

mindset. Thanks 82nd.

Onuma
07-23-2007, 13:05
Knife and cord seem to be the single most important tools you can have. You can, essentially, make or scavenge everything else you need through the use of these items - of course with the proper knowhow and execution.

While it is not in the minimalist realm of survival, a great item to have (as mentioned previously) is a radio:

For a very simple, yet effective bugout radio, Kaito's KA series (I own a KA007) is able to receive AM, FM, Weather band, TV, Short Wave, and Air signals. It is powered via batteries (3x AA), A/C adapter, solar panel on the rear, or a hand dynamo which lasts a significant amount of time with very little effort. It also contains a small LED to act as a makeshift flashlight, and has a standard headphone jack so you can listen with a pair of earbuds (included) to reduce necessary volume - thereby reducing the power consumption. This jack also doubles as an antenna for Short Wave band signals using the included wire-antenna.

~$30 for a great bugout/survival/GOOD radio is definitely worth it, I think.

Kaito KA009 @ Weems Creek Solutions (http://www.weemscreeksolutions.com/KaitoKA009.htm?gclid=CILt9NCgvo0CFSQWgQodXzDoFA)

Gentlemen, thank you for a great thread. I've learned more in these pages than all of my Army training of the last several years (sadly).

[edit]

Upon further thought, you could use the components in this radio (such as the solar cell and dynamo) for many other things. Charging batteries for your flashlight, for example, would be an excellent use to apply to the solar cell.

The Reaper
07-23-2007, 15:23
I watch Bear Grylls. :p "Man vs Wild"

If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it is to never stop thinking, to decide and to act on that decision. Most everything you will need can be found in the wild. What ever your needs, nutrition, hydration, shelter, and fire can be made with ingenuity, and a desire to survive.

Patience is almost alway's a virture. I've learned a lot from this thread.

I disagree with this.

Man vs. Wild is three to five days, and he is usually on the move to habitation.

It would be very difficult to live that way for two months. Try preparing food at your house from scratch for a week with no salt at all. Then consider how it would be after eight weeks. At the same time, laagering up at a single site means time to construct a decent shelter, gather materials, set and service a trap line, etc.

IMHO, in a survival situation, acting without thorough consideration on a non-emergency problem is a recipe for making a bad decision much worse. Look before you leap.

TR

Spartan74
07-23-2007, 20:14
http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle2116195.ece
TV 'survival king' stayed in hotels

TO LIVE up to his public image of a rugged, ex-SAS adventurer, it must have seemed essential for Bear Grylls to appear at ease sleeping rough and catching his own food in his television survival series.

But it has emerged that Grylls, 33, was enjoying a far more conventional form of comfort, retreating some nights from filming in mountains and on desert islands to nearby lodges and hotels.

Now Channel 4 has launched an investigation into whether Grylls, who has conquered Everest and the Arctic, deceived the public in his series Born Survivor.

The series, screened in March and April and watched by 1.4m viewers, built up Grylls's credentials as a tough outdoorsman. In a question and answer session on Channel 4's website, he recalls how station bosses pitched the venture to him stating: "We just drop you into a lot of different hellholes equipped with nothing, and you do what you have to do to survive."

But an adviser to Born Survivor has disclosed that at one location where the adventurer claimed to be a "real life Robin-son Crusoe" trapped on "a desert island", he was actually on an outlying part of the Hawaiian archipelago and spent nights at a motel.

On another occasion in California's Sierra Nevada mountains where he was filmed biting off the head of a snake for breakfast and struggling for survival "with just a water bottle, a cup and a flint for making fire", he actually slept some nights with the crew in a lodge fitted with television and internet access. The Pines Resort at Bass Lake is advertised as "a cosy getaway for families" with blueberry pancakes for breakfast.

In one episode Grylls, son of the late Tory MP Sir Michael Grylls, was shown apparently building a Polynesian-style raft using only materials around him, including bamboo, hibiscus twine and palm leaves for a sail.

But according to Mark Weinert, an Oregon-based survival consultant brought in for the job, it was he who led the team that built the raft. It was then dismantled so that Grylls could be shown building it on camera.

In another episode viewers watched as Grylls tried to coax an apparently wild mustang into a lasso in the Sierra Nevada. "I'm in luck," he told viewers, apparently coming across four wild horses grazing in a meadow. "A chance to use an old native American mode of transport comes my way. This is one of the few places in the whole of the US where horses still roam wild."

In fact, Weinert said, the horses were not wild but were brought in by trailer from a nearby trekking station for the "choreographed" feature.

"If you really believe everything happens the way it is shown on TV, you are being a little bit naive," he said.

Channel 4 confirmed that Grylls had used hotels during expeditions and has now asked Diverse, the Bristol-based production company that made the programme, to look into the other claims.

"We take any allegations of misleading our audiences seriously," said a spokeswoman for the channel.

The latest suggestion that Channel 4 may have breached viewer trust comes as the broad-caster's supervisory board prepares to issue new editorial guidelines to suppliers in order to stamp out alleged sharp practices that mislead viewers.

"Born Survivor is not an observational documentary series but a 'how to' guide to basic survival techniques in extreme environments," the spokeswoman said.

"The programme explicitly does not claim that presenter Bear Grylls's experience is one of unaided solo survival."

Nevertheless, the disclosure is likely to disappoint fans of the Eton-educated adventurer, who at the age of 23 became the youngest Briton to scale Everest. Just two years before that he had broken his back in three places after his parachute ripped during a military exercise.

On screen he has emerged as a natural performer, with stunts such as squeezing water from animal dung and sucking the fluid from fish eyeballs.

Grylls could not be contacted for comment this weekend as he was trekking in the Brecon Beacons with his four-year-old son.

AF IDMT
07-24-2007, 08:55
I always thought the term "reality television" was an oxymoron.

Razor
07-24-2007, 11:20
The series "Survivorman" was, IMO, a far better survival primer than "Man vs. Wild". Its wasn't as exciting, and the host didn't do crazy, attention-grabbing things like Grylls, but it was more realistic. Many of the techniques Grylls shows look cool, but involve far too much risk than one should take in a survival situation (unless that is the only option). Climbing a rope hand-over-hand 100ft up a ravine, eating raw zebra meat, and sneaking up to African predators to get a look at them just doesn't make sense when faced with other, safer choices.

The Reaper
07-24-2007, 12:17
The series "Survivorman" was, IMO, a far better survival primer than "Man vs. Wild". Its wasn't as exciting, and the host didn't do crazy, attention-grabbing things like Grylls, but it was more realistic. Many of the techniques Grylls shows look cool, but involve far too much risk than one should take in a survival situation (unless that is the only option). Climbing a rope hand-over-hand 100ft up a ravine, eating raw zebra meat, and sneaking up to African predators to get a look at them just doesn't make sense when faced with other, safer choices.

Agree completely.

I told my kids that after watching him do stupid stuff like eating a scorpion, jumping off big rocks (or directly down steep faces), climbing up rock chimneys and faces, moving during the day in 120 degree heat, handling a poisonous snake, chowing down on a spider, and drinking his own urine, that these are not things that we do until we are very near the end and are desperate. You break an ankle, get poisoned, start throwing up and running with diarrhea, get bitten, have a heat stroke, or any one of a lot of bad things that can happen with an excessive risk in a survival situation, and you have just made a bad situation much worse.

If it were me, I would pass on most of the insects (and all of the poisonous ones), move carefully, and on fairly level terrain when possible, lay up during the hottest part of the day, stay near potable water sources, etc., and I would probably make it through the same areas he does, but it would probably be slower and a lot less dramatic.

You also have to realize that the camera crew are there and they are not unprepared, having water, food, first aid, tents, commo, trans, etc.

For a short move (or layup) of that duration, you could do it with what he carries (normally a water bottle, which looks like it has a braided 550 cord strap, a folding knife, and a firestarter). You could probably do it with just a knife as well, but it would suck even more.

It would add significantly to his odds and comfort, without adding a lot of gear, to include a few more items.

Leatherman Multi-tool (in lieu of his folder)
Canteen cup
Water Purification Tabs or better yet, MSR MIOX
550 cord
Button Compass
Photon Micro-Lite
Butane lighter
Alcohol prep pads (Wound cleaning and fire starting)
Scalpel Blade (Med needs, small cutting chores, fine, sharp knife work)
Suture with needle (Closing wounds, repairing clothing and gear)
Small fishing and wire snare kit (Gathering food and lashings)
Plastic garbage bag (waterproofing and improvised rain gear or sleeping bag)
1 gallon Ziploc bag (waterproofing, food or water transport)
Small sheet of heavy duty aluminum foil (cooking, boiling water, signalling)
Signal mirror*
Whistle*

* To assist with being found. If you do not want to be found, they are not necessary.

This gear would easily fit in his pockets or around his water bottle to the point that unless you searched him, you would not know that he was carrying it.

Note that in area with more traffic, a lot of this can be scavenged, like water bottles, trash bags, Ziplocs, foil, lighters (even one out of fuel will normally produce a usable spark), cordage, a container or surface to cook in/on, tinder, etc.

When I was out in a remote part of Uwharrie National Forest on survival during the SFQC, one of the first things I did after orienting myself was to look for potable water and to cruise for resources. I quickly found a 2 liter soda bottle, some plastic grocery bags, a trash bag, some ZipLoc bags, a wad of aluminum foil, some old electric fence wire, paper bags and newspapers (for tinder), and an old hubcap that I could put over the fire to cook in.

There was a culvert just up the hill from my survival area with fairly clear flowing water. I strained it through my T-shirt and used water purification tablets, and never had any problems with it.

The points here are that it is stupid to take unnecessary risks in a real survival situation (unless you have your camera crew handy with an INMARSAT or Iridium), that staying in one place is easier than moving, that a few small items can make your life much more confortable, IF you have them with you when you need them, items with multiple uses are preferred over single use items, and that many items can be found even in remote areas that will assist you when in survival mode.

HTH.

TR

AF IDMT
07-24-2007, 14:25
For those not used to living in the woods there are other problems which may or may not be overcome depending on the person. These are basically dealing with fear, anxiety, pain, injury, illness, effects of cold and heat extremes, thrist, hunger, fatique, sleep deprivation, loneliness and isolation. Most of this can be handled by good training ahead of time.

QP's, what training would you suggest for someone who does not have access to military SERE training to cultivate the ability to deal with these issues. FM 21-76 states the two gravest general dangers are the desire for comfort (or to NOT be in pain, lonley, sick, hurt, etc) and a passive outlook. How does one train themselves to overcome these issues? On a side note, because of this thread my wife and I are going camping this weekend. She's going for the peace and quiet. I'm going to practice some skills. Can't wait.

groundup
07-24-2007, 18:59
The series "Survivorman" was, IMO, a far better survival primer than "Man vs. Wild". Its wasn't as exciting, and the host didn't do crazy, attention-grabbing things like Grylls, but it was more realistic. Many of the techniques Grylls shows look cool, but involve far too much risk than one should take in a survival situation (unless that is the only option). Climbing a rope hand-over-hand 100ft up a ravine, eating raw zebra meat, and sneaking up to African predators to get a look at them just doesn't make sense when faced with other, safer choices.
A bunch of my friends love that show (Man vs Wild). Every time I hear them talking about it, I have to make mention of all the stupid things he does. Like jumping in to a freezing river or climbing trees. What ever happened to stay dry, stay warm, stay safe? Don't ration water or food - ration work. This guy teaches people to be stupid in survival situations.

cobra22
07-25-2007, 00:58
I'd have a Leatherman, flint, canteen, small knife sharpener, a handlheld wire saw, block of magnesium, 20 feet of 550 cord, iodine tabs, strong fixed blade knife, signal mirror, small bottle of salt tabs, alcohol wipes, neosporin, medical tape, and several 2x2's. All items currently in my survival kit.

Priorities of work would be;

1. Find potable water source preferably stream of some sort and set up camp a short distance from there.
2. Set traps, deadfalls and snares
3. Collect fire wood, kindling, and build fire
4. Build shelter
5. Forage for edible berries, roots and such.
6. Check traps
7. Continue to improve shelter
8. Build a smoker to preserve meats
9. set up a trot line
10. Build big game hunting instruments, spears, Bow and arrows.
11. Once I catch big game after I dress it and skin it I would smoke the meat and start making a wrap to keep me warm. A long process. The activity and fire would have to do until then.

Of course The best laid plans.... This is alot eaiser said than done but in any case it would be absolutely miserable until my AO was completely established. After about two weeks though it should fairly comfortable. I have never been put to the test but my Dad who thought the russians were coming when I was a kid taught me how to do all these tasks. Never done them all together, and the fur I did was a rabbit and that took forver.

jatx
07-25-2007, 08:01
Priorities of work would be;


How about figuring out your location and doing an inventory of gear that is on hand or can be scavenged? Be sure to stop and think first! Unless you are E&Eing, time is probably on your side...

The Reaper
07-25-2007, 11:25
cobra:

jatx has some good points.

Checklists are fine, but I wouldn't get too wrapped around them. You have to remain flexible, and prioritize according to METT-T. The priorities in Alaska in February are going to be vastly different from Panama in July.

Review the basics: air, shelter (including fire for warmth), water, food. In a benign environment, shelter may fall to last place. In a harsh or extreme environment, it will likely be near the top.

As far as your list goes, you need a container to boil water or cook in. A canteen cup (or one of the Titanium version, if you are an ultralight guy) is a good, compact solution.

I would take salt over salt tabs. If you have a MIOX water purifier, it takes salt and a battery to work, but you can use the salt on your food as well. A bouillion cube or two can be great, or if you must be very compact, the seasoning packet out of a 15 cent pack of ramen is good. A tea bag or intstant coffee packet might be nice.

You need a compact light source, unless it never gets dark where you are. The Photons are the best small lighting solution, and are among the most flexible.

Have you actually lit a fire with your flint before? If not, you might want to try it in a non-survival situation. An actual flame is a vastly superior fire starter than a shower of tiny, weak sparks, unless you have gasoline, or powder.

I would carry more than 20' of 550 cord. I use it for boot laces as well. If you need small cordage, you can gut it and still lace up your boots with the sheath. BTW, for those who have never used 550 cord before, the internal strands are slippery and do not hold knots well. A quick pass with the BIC or over a hot coal is a good way to lock them permanently.

I would want a ZipLoc, condom, or trash bag for waterproofing and water storage. Nothing worse than having to spend 30 minutes and hundreds of calories every time your 1 qt. canteen runs dry, and it tends to dehydrate you as well, as you opt to drink less to avoid the trek. The trash bag is quickly a good rain poncho, ground cloth, improvised sleeping bag, or can be split open to improve the watertightness of your shelter. If you have food, and no place to secure it, it will spoil faster and will quickly be bug infested. Condoms need to be the plain variety.

If I were taking any tape, it would be 100 mph tape. It will work longer holding a bandage, and has a lot of other uses as well. You can wrap things in it and peel it off as needed. A couple of wraps around a canteen is a few feet of good cheap insurance.

You will need wire for snares and repairs, and hooks for fishing. A tiny bottle of hooks and some monofilament line (also good for lashings), wrapped in snare wire is an excellent way to secure a steady food source in the wild. Trust me, making traps, snares, and hooks is no way as easy, or effective, as making a noose snare out of wire or just tying a hook onto a few feet of mono line.

People who have never lived in the woods much seem to think that there a a plentiful supply of large stupid herbivores which are as easy to take with a spear or a knife as a centerfire rifle.

The truth is:

- Large game is much rarer in the wild than small game.
- Large game is more cautious and aware, or they would not have grown up to that size. Think Darwin.
- It takes longer and more resources to grow, so you can quickly exhaust an area of its big game. One middle-aged buck may have several square miles of territory.
- Large game will be harder to kill, and even more difficult to stop. Even if you can hit one with a homemade arrow from a homemade bow, he will likely run far away, and will likely not be killed by it.
- A wounded large animal, even a herbivore, can hurt badly you trying to escape.
- It will be difficult to hang, gut, and skin large game in a survival situation. So many people take their kill to processing plants that I think most are unaware of just how difficult it is to prepare. It looks much easier on TV.
- Without cooling, salt, or other preservation means, in the summer, you may have 24 hours or less to consume the game before it goes bad. How will you consume 200 lbs. of venison in 24 hours? Hard to smoke that much meat, that quickly in the wild.
- Large carnivores and scavengers can sense a large kill for many miles and you may attract unwanted visitors. What do you do with the 100 pounds of guts, bones, and hide near your camp site? Bears will come after game that others have killed, they can smell much better than a bloodhound. Unless you are ready for that, think about it. You may not want the constant stream of buzzards over your kill site either.

- Small game, like squirrels, rabbits, fish, etc., on the other hand are plentiful and are near the bottom of the food chain. They exist primarily for other animals to eat. For that reason, they reproduce, well, like rabbits and are hard to eliminate completely, as farmers can attest.
- They are not too smart and are easy to catch with a variety of traps and snares.
- You can run a trap line and unless you are a serious eater or in a poor environment, not depopulate the area.
- They are easy to kill if trapped.
- They are well, meal sized. Much less waste. And the small amount of waste can be easily disposed of, or used as bait for other, larger creatures.
- They are portable. You can easily tie or cage a live rabbit for dining later. You can build a fish corral. Deer and other large animals do not like that.
- They are easy to prepare, I can gut and skin a rabbit in a couple of minutes.
- If you catch two that you do not need, you can quickly become a rancher. Deer and other large game don't work that way.

Best of luck, hope this helps.

Wolverines!!

7624U
07-25-2007, 11:56
Wolverines!!

I advise you don't try to hunt,kill and eat one of these :D

The Reaper
07-25-2007, 12:00
I advise you don't try to hunt,kill and eat one of these :D

Red Dawn reference based on cobra's comments about his Dad.

Good movie.

TR

Team Sergeant
07-25-2007, 12:15
I'd have a Leatherman, flint, canteen, small knife sharpener, a handlheld wire saw, block of magnesium, 20 feet of 550 cord, iodine tabs, strong fixed blade knife, signal mirror, small bottle of salt tabs, alcohol wipes, neosporin, medical tape, and several 2x2's. All items currently in my survival kit.

Priorities of work would be;

1. Find potable water source preferably stream of some sort and set up camp a short distance from there.
2. Set traps, deadfalls and snares
3. Collect fire wood, kindling, and build fire
4. Build shelter
5. Forage for edible berries, roots and such.
6. Check traps
7. Continue to improve shelter
8. Build a smoker to preserve meats
9. set up a trot line
10. Build big game hunting instruments, spears, Bow and arrows.
11. Once I catch big game after I dress it and skin it I would smoke the meat and start making a wrap to keep me warm. A long process. The activity and fire would have to do until then.

Of course The best laid plans.... This is alot eaiser said than done but in any case it would be absolutely miserable until my AO was completely established. After about two weeks though it should fairly comfortable. I have never been put to the test but my Dad who thought the russians were coming when I was a kid taught me how to do all these tasks. Never done them all together, and the fur I did was a rabbit and that took forver.

A "block of magnesium", nice, next time it's 30 below I want you to shave that block of magnesium and start a fire. Trust me I'd done it.

In its place I'd advise X2 Bic lighters. I carried the same Bic lighter in a survival kit for almost twenty years, still worked when I threw it away.

When the unintelligent tell you that the gas inside the Bic will freeze below -20 (or what ever is the freezing point) tell them you fully intend to place the plastic part in your mouth to warm it and then use it to light your fire.

You should also place the lighter in a strong waterproof case in a survival kit.

TS

jatx
07-25-2007, 13:56
You might consider putting together a generic kit like mine, which lurks at the bottom of my assault pack:

Nalgene container wrapped w/ 10 ft. of 100 mph tape. Stored inside:
- Space blanket (shelter & warmth)
- Button compass
- 6x6 swatch of t-shirt material (filtering sediment from water)
- Small med kit w/ bandages, antibiotic ointment, razor blade, OTC analgesics and 4000 mg hydrocodone
- Small sewing kit w/ heavy gauge needle, waxed thread and monofilament
- Bic lighter
- Pocket chainsaw (clearing obstructions, building a shelter)
- Waterproof vial w/ windproof matches
- Hand sanitizer (hygiene and firestarting)
- Signal mirror and whistle
- 2x gallon ziploc bags
- 100 ft 550 cord
- 2 chemlights (1 white, 1 IR) for signaling at night (swing in circle on 550 cord)

These items augment the Leatherman and Photon light on my person, plus the Mioxx purifier also lurking in the bottom of the bag. The items can be transferred to one of the Ziplocs if I need the Nalgene for water treatment/storage. I also carry an empty Nalgene, so that I have one to drink from while water is being treated in the other. Altogether, these items take up about 4" in the bottom of my bag and weight about 5 lbs.

Now that TR has me thinking about snares and fishing, I'm going to see if I can jam some wire and hooks in too! Although a gill net would be really nice...:D

Edited to add: I think I'll just put the wire and hooks under another length of tape on the outside, since space is tight.

The chair is against the wall!

The Reaper
07-25-2007, 14:24
You might consider putting together a generic kit like mine, which lurks at the bottom of my assault pack:

Nalgene container wrapped w/ 10 ft. of 100 mph tape. Stored inside:
- Space blanket (shelter & warmth)
- Button compass
- 6x6 swatch of t-shirt material (filtering sediment from water)
- Small med kit w/ bandages, antibiotic ointment, razor blade, OTC analgesics and 4000 mg hydrocodone
- Small sewing kit w/ heavy gauge needle, waxed thread and monofilament
- Bic lighter
- Pocket chainsaw (clearing obstructions, building a shelter)
- Waterproof vial w/ windproof matches
- Hand sanitizer (hygiene and firestarting)
- Signal mirror and whistle
- 2x gallon ziploc bags
- 100 ft 550 cord
- 2 chemlights (1 white, 1 IR) for signaling at night (swing in circle on 550 cord)

These items augment the Leatherman and Photon light on my person, plus the Mioxx purifier also lurking in the bottom of the bag. The items can be transferred to one of the Ziplocs if I need the Nalgene for water treatment/storage. I also carry an empty Nalgene, so that I have one to drink from while water is being treated in the other. Altogether, these items take up about 4" in the bottom of my bag and weight about 5 lbs.

Now that TR has me thinking about snares and fishing, I'm going to see if I can jam some wire and hooks in too! Although a gill net would be really nice...:D

Edited to add: I think I'll just put the wire and hooks under another length of tape on the outside, since space is tight.

The chair is against the wall!

jatx:

Not bad.

The t-shirt material is an emergency substitute if you have nothing else. The mesh is really a bit large for proper filtering. For a kit, I would recommend a piece of nylon stocking or a paper coffee filter (limited number of uses , but can be used for tinder when used up and dried out).

4000 mg of Hydrocodone is 400-800 tabs and is a 10-20 day supply. Taken all at once, it contains a lethal dose of Acetominophen. Do you plan to commit suicide, stay high the entire time, deal the Hydrocodone for survival items, drug the wild game, or just get arrested and spend the time in jail?

The ETS site links to the companies that sell the AMK Pocket Survival Pack, which contains most of the smaller items in a really compact format. Add a canteen with cup, a MIOX, a multitool, a lighter, and a couple of bags, and you should be good to go with a basic kit.

You probably also need a box of the small ZipLocs to break out your hundreds of Hydrocodone tabs for resale.

TR

jatx
07-25-2007, 14:38
The t-shirt material is an emergency substitute if you have nothing else. The mesh is really a bit large for proper filtering. For a kit, I would recommend a piece of nylon stocking or a paper coffee filter (limited number of uses , but can be used for tinder when used up and dried out). TR

That's interesting, because I started out with the paper filters and moved to the fabric because of their tendency to tear after being used a few times. I'll sub the stocking material, which offers the added advantage of being more compact.

4000 mg of Hydrocodone is 400-800 tabs and is a 10-20 day supply. Taken all at once, it contains a lethal dose of Acetominophen. Do you plan to commit suicide, stay high the entire time, deal the Hydrocodone for survival items, drug the wild game, or just get arrested and spend the time in jail?TR

You get free McDonald's in jail! :D

Seriously, I am looking at the prescription bottle and it says "Vicodin 5/500". I have eight of those halved and jammed into a small pill box. That's enough to take the edge off for 2-3 days following a badly twisted ankle or a Democrat being elected to the White House.

The Reaper
07-25-2007, 14:48
That's interesting, because I started out with the paper filters and moved to the fabric because of their tendency to tear after being used a few times. I'll sub the stocking material, which offers the added advantage of being more compact.

You get free McDonald's in jail! :D

Seriously, I am looking at the prescription bottle and it says "Vicodin 5/500". I have eight of those halved and jammed into a small pill box. That's enough to take the edge off for 2-3 days following a badly twisted ankle or a Democrat being elected to the White House.

What you have is 40mg of Hydrocodone and 4000 mg of acetaminophen. A couple of days worth. I would not have halved them, it makes them break down/age out easier and some of the narcotics have the active ingredient in a tiny pellet form to prevent abuse.

I agree, the stocking is more compact, and reusable after washing, but the t-shirt could be charred and used as tinder. Your call. What you might do is to scoop up some known dirty water like a bird bath or stagnant pond and filter it through your different media into a clean glass to check for particulates. If you don't see any, let it sit for a few days and see what settles out.

TR

Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-25-2007, 14:56
Priorities of work would be;.

Actually your first priority should be to access your current situation, especially if you are in hostile territory. Enemy, weather, terrain and your personal condition (as well as those for whom you might be responsible) are going to dictate your priorities of work.

cold1
07-25-2007, 15:04
How about a sling shot for small game. Before I had a BB gun a sling shot was my best freind. They dont take up alot of space and ammo is usually plentiful.

As far as making a bow, try reading the "Traditional Bowyers Bible" seris. Great Info.

How would one of the permentant coffee filters be for sediments?

As a technical nugget the freezing point of Isobutane is -229F at atmospheric pressure.

groundup
07-25-2007, 21:18
Like has been said - first priority is to assess the situation. First thing in my assessment would be to determine if I could get out of the situation without having to "survive". If I've got comms, why sit in the mountains waiting for someone to realize I am not where I should be? So, I always carry a cellphone and keep it off unless it is an emergency. It doesn't weigh much and if I am lucky enough to get a signal - good for me. If I've got a map, time, and ability (energy and medically able), why sit there? If there are other (friendly) people around, why not ask for some help? There is a difference between surviving and living IMO.

I've used the magnesium starter in a blizzard in the mountains of Harriman State Park in NY because the metal on my lighters kept freezing. I put them under my arm pits to keep the warm, but that gets you cold ;) The magnesium starter is a pain in the ass too. I don't know why, but my buddy had a flare with him and we used that to start a fire :lifter

I start my survival gear prep at my skin. If it is going to be cold outside, I bring clothes that will keep me warm. If it is going to be hot, I bring clothes that will keep me cool. I always try to fit a change in there too. Whether it is hot or cold, being wet sucks. Cotton or wool or synthetic is another question I ask myself.

I pack for the occasion, but there are some things similar in all situations - water, food, and shelter. Always pack enough water for whatever I plan on doing and an emergency supply for what might come up. If I plan on being up there for a decent amount of time and there might be a source of water, I bring a water purifier. I usually bring iodine and salt for those true emergencies. Otherwise, there are many other ways to get water other than from standard sources. Food - depends a lot on what I am doing. If I am all out of MREs (or canned food, steaks, hot dogs, ramen, and beer) there is not much I can do other than hunt or gather. I have started to bring the Survival FM on camping trips so I can see for myself what the pictures are showing in a "safer" environment. Most basic items shelter are the ponchos and rain gear.

I didn't go over those little things, but you don't have to survive on what you have in your pocket. You might be surviving on your ruck. If I am going to have to survive, I want as much as I can. My "oh shit, my ruck is gone" survival kit is packed in a Camelbak with 2 pockets. It has a first aid kit put in to a 5.56 mag pouch with a black cross on it so others know what it is. I put a poncho or other rain gear on the outside. Water inside. There are at least 3 fire starting elements in there - lighter, waterproof matches, and magnesium fire starter with a little swiss army knife attached. I put some cotton balls covered in petroleum jelly in a prescription bottle in there. I have a daisy chained length of 550 cord (I'd say about 50'). If I am not wearing it, I put a Tikka XP headlamp in there. Also a surefire 6P or a mini-mag (no filters on either of those). I have a couple of folding knives I put in there, but they change depending on what I feel like pulling out at the time. I also put something(s) reflective in there like a reflective belt and/or a mirror. Reflective belt is really smart when you are walking around in the dark on a ruck and you are looking for your buddies. I put a pen and a notebook in there. I also put communication equipment in there (cellphone or handheld 2-way). Depending on the climate, depends on the type of gloves but I can't remember ever not having gloves in there. That is all off the top of my head from what I usually use. It changes depending on where I am going and what I am doing, but I think I got the basics.

cobra22
07-25-2007, 23:42
Actually your first priority should be to access your current situation, especially if you are in hostile territory. Enemy, weather, terrain and your personal condition (as well as those for whom you might be responsible) are going to dictate your priorities of work.

My understanding was that there was no enemy presence, and that I was on my own. Also that I would not move for at least 60 days. Similar to Troop Leading Procedures, Assessing the situation is a second nature thing that comes naturally with my level experience. IT has to be done in order to create a plan to get to your priorities of work. Furthermore I would continue to assess the situation until I was out of the situation. Under the current conditions laid out in the first post, you need to remain for 60 days, regardless of conditions of weather and yourself you have to accomplish certain things IOT survive. Finding water, starting fire, and building shelter IMHO have to be done at a minimum. Regardless of personal, or weather conditions. Otherwise you might not survive. With the conditions being, moderate in the day 70's as low as 40's at night I think those three in that order would be prudent.
If in a combat senario the whole ball game changes.

A "block of magnesium", nice, next time it's 30 below I want you to shave that block of magnesium and start a fire. Trust me I'd done it.

Never used it except in fair conditions. Point taken. A lighter would probably be more prudent. I should probably add one to my kit. However as a Murpheys Law contingency I believe a flint, striker and magnesium block could be carried as well, they could start a fire in a pinch and don't take up much space also they weigh next to nothing.
Better to have and not need....;).

Cobra 22

The Reaper
07-26-2007, 00:20
Just a quick comment here.

Every guy posting with Quiet Professional under his name has been through a survival course of several days in a remote area with very few resources, like a knife, a book of paper matches, a few feet of 550 cord, a chicken or rabbit (to keep students from trapping and consuming domestic animals) and his canteen with cup, or in a real world situation with a lot more drama.

Asking questions is fine.

I would be very hesitant to dispense advice without comparable experience, which I only see in a few cases here. Anyone who is a SERE Instructor or survival expert who is not a QP, send me your creds.

As far as the slingshot goes, that would be fine, if it is small, lightweight, and if you are accurate with it.

I would consider a few feet of tubing for drinking from ground sources without disturbing it, or from a solar still without taking it apart, so if you could just carry the surgical tubing and make your own slingshot in the woods.

For firestarting, I have used a lot of techniques. Just as a control measure, I turned my kids, 9 and 12 years old, loose on a pile of pine needle tinder yesterday with one of the Firesteel manmade flint strikers. They caught on to the striking technique very quickly, making big showers of sparks, and I let them try to light the tinder. I had to add some shreded paper napkin to the mix before the youngest could get it started, total time, about four minutes and a couple of dozen strikes. Curiously enough, I also had to add some hand sanitizer before the older one could get one started. She took well over ten minutes and a hundred strikes. I actually stopped her twice and struck fires myself just to make sure that everything was okay. It took me a half dozen strikes or so. When I gave them a butane lighter, both could produce significant blazes almost immediately, with their first attempts.

Yes the flint or firesteel technique will work eventually, when it is cold or wet, if your hands know what they are doing. An actual flame beats a spark, even a good one, almost every time. I believe that for the weight of a flint, striker, and magnesium block, you could carry several lighters, which if kept in a pocket or on a necklace, will be much easier to use, as well as cheaper and requiring less training.

Next time you think about it, take your flint, steel, and magnesium out, and try to light a fire with it using just one hand. Now try it with your weak hand alone. How will you do it if one hand is injured? With a lighter, it is still simple.

Remember KISS.

TR

cobra22
07-26-2007, 02:14
Point taken Sir, it would be extremely obtuse of me to try to give survival advice to a QP. I was in no way trying to do that. I was just trying to explain why I chose the COA that I did and my logic for that COA. I apologize for not being more clear. On another note I did try the flint in my backyard with some pine needles, and then shredded paper. The flint by itself did not produce very good results, the flint with magnesium however did alot better. I produced fire in approx ten minutes with paper and then with pine needles. I haven't tried but doing it one handed would be very difficult. Looking at the facts I would have to say flint and magnesium out, BIC in. Good tips all.

Cobra 22

cold1
07-26-2007, 12:29
Next time you think about it, take your flint, steel, and magnesium out, and try to light a fire with it using just one hand. Now try it with your weak hand alone. How will you do it if one hand is injured? With a lighter, it is still simple.


I had an epiphiny today while brazing up some lines. How about the torch striker. Small, light weight, only needs one hand, and reusable. Put your tender into the "Cup" and strart squeezing the handle to produce sparks. I have not tried it yet and I am sure it is no match against the BICs but for the person who must have a magnesium starter maybe this would be a better alternative.

Here is a pic
8048

The Reaper
07-26-2007, 13:04
I had an epiphiny today while brazing up some lines. How about the torch striker. Small, light weight, only needs one hand, and reusable. Put your tender into the "Cup" and strart squeezing the handle to produce sparks. I have not tried it yet and I am sure it is no match against the BICs but for the person who must have a magnesium starter maybe this would be a better alternative.

Here is a pic
8048

Not magnesium, excessively large and bulky, and I suspect that the striking action will empty the cup before ignition is achieved. Might work if nothing else were around, especially if you have the oxygen and acetylene handy.

The small survival kits will fit in an Altoids tin. You can put 3 or 4 BIC lighters in that space, along with tinder, and if kept lukewarm and dry, they will start a fire quickly and effortlessly, with one hand every time.

TR

Team Sergeant
07-26-2007, 14:01
How about a sling shot for small game. Before I had a BB gun a sling shot was my best freind. They dont take up alot of space and ammo is usually plentiful.

As far as making a bow, try reading the "Traditional Bowyers Bible" seris. Great Info.

How would one of the permentant coffee filters be for sediments?

As a technical nugget the freezing point of Isobutane is -229F at atmospheric pressure.


Don't get it do you.

I'm not going to get into the thermodynamics and how it relates to vapor pressure and isobutane, butane does not work well in extremely cold weather.

Team Sergeant

cold1
07-26-2007, 14:52
gas inside the Bic will freeze below -20 (or what ever is the freezing point)


No disrespect intended sir. Just want let you know what the freezing point of Isobutane was. I did not intend to be a smart ass or come across as one.

Again no disrepect sir, I do understand thermodynamics.

butane does not work well in extremely cold weather.

No disagreement there.

As to my previous post about the torch striker. It should have been phrased as a question rather than a statement. I do not know if it would work or not, I have never tried it. Just thinking out loud.

Now back to reading more and posting less.

MAB32
07-28-2007, 17:39
What I have been doing is using an Air Force RSSK for a survival pack. I start out with the "Cold Weather RSSK" then add or/ delete items as neccessary for Spring, Summer, or Fall. A little weighty but it has what I think to be very complete. These RSSK's were meant for more than 3 days whereas the vest (SRU-21P) was for less than 3 days usage. This is why when a pilot ejects out of his aircraft he will have both the RSSK and his vest on him. Thi vest and the RSSK has allot redundecy built in.

No my only question is this: Does anybody have any real-life experience with the "Mil-Spec" fishing kit? If so, what needs to be added or deleted?

soldier506
10-28-2007, 14:20
One of the most important peice of kit is your witts or brain . Humans have the ability to think and reason. Hard to do when scared . Best thing to do is take a deep breath and calm down . Take stock of your situation and your suroundings. Since it is not a cold envirment I would like to find a nice spot for a shelter perferably around a water source. Make your lean to shelter just in case it does rain . Have a fire . A fire provides warmth, protection and a mental plus . Your not going to starve to death right away but will not last long without water. So water takes prioirity over food .

Some items of kit I wish to have for basic survival .
- a good fixed blade knife and sheath
- fire making products sush as mag fire stick, fire starrters,etc.
- para cord
- wire saw for cutting or for snare
- a good compass
- fishing line or dental flause
- condom
- pen light
- proper clothing/footwear
- garbage bag
- survival/medical kit

The Reaper
10-28-2007, 15:38
One of the most important peice of kit is your witts or brain . Humans have the ability to think and reason. Hard to do when scared . Best thing to do is take a deep breath and calm down . Take stock of your situation and your suroundings. Since it is not a cold envirment I would like to find a nice spot for a shelter perferably around a water source. Make your lean to shelter just in case it does rain . Have a fire . A fire provides warmth, protection and a mental plus . Your not going to starve to death right away but will not last long without water. So water takes prioirity over food .

Some items of kit I wish to have for basic survival .
- a good fixed blade knife and sheath
- fire making products sush as mag fire stick, fire starrters,etc.
- para cord
- wire saw for cutting or for snare
- a good compass
- fishing line or dental flause
- condom
- pen light
- proper clothing/footwear
- garbage bag
- survival/medical kit

I agree.

Take a deep breath and calm down.

And use the spell-checker.

Then tell me why someone who lists no military service is so busy posting on an SF board?

TR

soldier506
10-29-2007, 20:26
Thanks for the reminder of my poor spelling & typing skills.

Also, where does it say no military skills? I recall adding I was involved with the militia at some point. Perhaps you are not familiar with things up here. Where I am from, militia is part of the armed forces. We have different terms up here. I am not in the same league as many but am here to show my respect for Nato troops and to hopefully learn some cold weather tips.

Ambush Master
10-29-2007, 21:03
Thanks for the reminder of my poor spelling & typing skills.

Also, where does it say no military skills? I recall adding I was involved with the militia at some point. Perhaps you are not familiar with things up here. Where I am from, militia is part of the armed forces. We have different terms up here. I am not in the same league as many but am here to show my respect for Nato troops and to hopefully learn some cold weather tips.


Check your own Profile here!! It's a bit SLIM!!!

Do you really realize, with whom you are conversing?!?!?!

Take care.
Martin

Tetrian
11-11-2007, 17:54
Not sure if its been posted earlier, it didn't show up on a search.

The Discovery channel here is currently running a series at the moment called survivorman. Seems like a more realistic version of the Bear Grylls show. Definately worth a look if your into survival shows and the like.

The guy basicly gets dropped off in the middle of nowhere alone and attempt to survive there for a week with the items one might normally carry with them every day.

Link below contains streams for the two first shows.
http://www.squidoo.com/survivorman/#module2214127

monsterhunter
11-12-2007, 09:09
Not sure if its been posted earlier, it didn't show up on a search.

The Discovery channel here is currently running a series at the moment called survivorman. Seems like a more realistic version of the Bear Grylls show. Definately worth a look if your into survival shows and the like.

The guy basicly gets dropped off in the middle of nowhere alone and attempt to survive there for a week with the items one might normally carry with them every day.

Link below contains streams for the two first shows.
http://www.squidoo.com/survivorman/#module2214127

I will give up that this guy has some skills; however, some of the things I've seen him do on TV may cost someone if they try to emulate him. A few examples stand out: One where he eats a wild mushroom believing that he's GTG. The other is where he's snuggling under a rock for the night in very cold weather. He had his backpack with him, which he never inventoried before spending the first night. The next morning, he finds some useful items for the cold. The last I'll bring up is his leaving the shore to get lost, sick and dehydrated in a jungle. He then struggles to get back out to where he was in the first place.

Grant it, not all of this is the end of the world (except maybe the mushrooms), but not the example I would want to set for a novice in the field. I will give him credit for actually being by himself and making it out alive.

Just my .02, and it does have some entertainment value (otherwise I sure wouldn't be able to go on like this).

nighthawk45
11-21-2007, 13:50
I just got through reading the pages above, great stuff! For a really good place to
learn about this stuff. May I point to 'HOODs WOODs" at www.survival.com.
Ron and Karen Hood make some great videos/dvds about SURVIVAL.


walter

A#1
12-10-2007, 15:12
To my Understanding no one was able to really answer your senario. You only have clothes on back and boots.
60 days is your goal, but may not happen, so long stay survial is secondary plan or to Pack out yourself after 60 days. My first priority is to search area for any useful items. Water of unknown potabilty already Id.
1.stone for knives/axe (flint knapping/stone chipping)
2.DryShelter/fire making materials.(FireSaw/bow/tinder)

Assuming no trash is about for boil/storage of water.

3.near water source dig a hole (you can line the hole with stones, and let it fell with water.
4.place stones in your fire for at least 2 hours place stones in the water, until extremly hot drink prompley.
one can add to this pine needles,moss,willow bark,catail root ,grass root, fern bulbs,and bugs. etc. for benefit.
also id any food source the water has fish,bugs ,etc.

5.Keep busy devising traps.snare line made from fresh crushed saplings, strip bark,bear grass,catail reed(also good for baskets) finding animal trails .
6. Scouting and mapping the area in the dirt or any other means moving slightl further out every time marking food/water sources, mineral deposits,fire/shelter materials

assuming rescue is priority setting up a large signal fire with fresh green around for white smoke. and maintaining a fire near signal as to light when needed.important.

7. Have fun foraging, checking traps,Basket/line weaving and always looking for more to further comfort and survival.

P.s If you find mineral deposit s of ore (copper/tin/iron/magnitite/limestone/ try your hand at forging using wet wood and stone.

i have just discovered this site and i am over joyed at the knowledge base I now have access to thank you very much for every thing you are contributing. it will save lives.

With respect ,
A No.1

The Reaper
12-10-2007, 15:18
A#1, did you get a registration message?

Have you complied with the requirements yet?

I don't think so.

Do not offer further advice till you have followed instructions, and read the entire thread. Like my post at the top of page 12 of this thread.:rolleyes:

Understand that as SF soldiers who have had extensive survival training and experience in the real world, we are somewhat reluctant to take advice from someone who is still under 20 years of age and who we know nothing about.

TR

Pete S
03-16-2008, 00:56
Here a good website I found: http://wildwoodsurvival.com/

Most of it is "old school" stuff coming from native american traditions i.e. what are the best plants to make cordage from, how to make snares and traps, field expedient shelters, how to make stone tools, etc.

MoPro
04-29-2008, 14:07
I know TR posted a note of caution for those posting that aren't SERE instructors or QPs but I feel confident in this posting (...have to acknowledge protocol).

In all 13 pages of this thread, I haven't seen anybody post on the fact that the word survival is, in-itself, an acronym. I was a camp counselor at Aviation Challenge in Huntsville and we even taught the campers this. I also taught survival when I was a Flight Commander in CAP (I know, I know... nothing like SERE or QP training but training none-the-less). We taught two very important accronyms: SURVIVAL and COLDER.

Tools are only 5% of surviving a survival situation. The breakdown is 80% is your will to live, 15% is your knowledge of survival craft, and only 5% is your equipment. Nature will be your friend or foe, it does not care if you live or die. If you respect nature and use it positively to your advantage, it will aide you in your survival. If you do not, it will carry you to its death.

SURVIVAL:
Size up the situation
Undue haste makes waste
Remember where you are
Vanquish fear and panic
Improvise
Value living
Act like the natives
Learn basic skills

Just google colder accronym and find it as I know it is used by the army.

I hope I haven't intruded.

Pete
04-29-2008, 15:20
I know TR posted a note of caution for those posting that aren't SERE instructors or QPs but I feel confident in this posting (...have to acknowledge protocol).........

Just google colder accronym and find it as I know it is used by the army.

I hope I haven't intruded.

MoPro;

Most QPs don't google SURVIVAL info from the internet. Most have some version of the US Armed Forces Survival Manual on hand. Mine is 1980.

Chapter One The Psychology of Survival

The will to survive -- Where the mind leads.... -- Preparation -- Panic and Fear -- S-U-R-V-I-V-A-L -- Loneliness and Boredom -- Survive in Groups.

Pete

Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-29-2008, 15:31
In all 13 pages of this thread, I haven't seen anybody post on the fact that the word survival is, in-itself, an acronym. .

I am sure you are not referring to the fact that this appears in FM 21-76, March 1969, page 10. But of course, had anyone posted this, they would have probably given credit to the source. This is just one of many acronyms and none are the Rossetta Stone for survival as each have their strengths and weaknesses for application. As far as your assignment of percentages in surviving a "survival situation" there are no such things as absolutes and percentages are absolutes. 80% will to live will not do you too much good after you run out of water, have bled out, or jake-no-shoulders has kissed you for a second time on your 4th point of contact. All aspects are important and must be applied in accordance with the situation in which you find yourself-there is no magic formula against which percentages can be applied.

The Reaper
04-29-2008, 15:45
I know TR posted a note of caution for those posting that aren't SERE instructors or QPs but I feel confident in this posting (...have to acknowledge protocol).

In all 13 pages of this thread, I haven't seen anybody post on the fact that the word survival is, in-itself, an acronym. I was a camp counselor at Aviation Challenge in Huntsville and we even taught the campers this. I also taught survival when I was a Flight Commander in CAP (I know, I know... nothing like SERE or QP training but training none-the-less). We taught two very important accronyms: SURVIVAL and COLDER.

Tools are only 5% of surviving a survival situation. The breakdown is 80% is your will to live, 15% is your knowledge of survival craft, and only 5% is your equipment. Nature will be your friend or foe, it does not care if you live or die. If you respect nature and use it positively to your advantage, it will aide you in your survival. If you do not, it will carry you to its death.

SURVIVAL:
Size up the situation
Undue haste makes waste
Remember where you are
Vanquish fear and panic
Improvise
Value living
Act like the natives
Learn basic skills

Just google colder accronym and find it as I know it is used by the army.

I hope I haven't intruded.

You might want to look up situational awareness and figure out how it applies here.

As in SF, being the gray man is not a bad idea on PS.com.

People who draw attention to themselves in a non-permissive environment, especially when they are not one of the natives, do not tend to survive very long.

TR

MoPro
04-29-2008, 16:16
First off, I have the utmost respect for all QPs here and I did not intent to offend or insult anybody.

I apologize if anyone felt ill-intent, but I was posting for those who had questions about basics of survival. I was not posting for those who have been to SERE or undergone any form of training as what I posted here are the very basics; it was just a starting block for those who are new to the topic/Assets. I prefaced my post by saying that I am not a professional nor am I trying to be one; I posted just add an extra piece of information. By stating that S.U.R.V.I.V.A.L. was not posted in prior posts was not as a "gotcha" but rather as an additional piece of information that I thought was a basic teaching that I find valuable. (I apologize for not stating the source, as I learned it during a lecture from a teacher didn't mention where he got it from). Again, my post was not directed at those who have had much/if any experience.

And TR, I apologize if I have stood out in a negative way. I did not think that this post would stand out as the discussions within this particular thread have wavered slightly and I felt that my post fell inline with the general/overall course of discussion. I have constantly tried to maintain a high state of SA which [I hope] has been reflected in my prior posts and the way in which I try to conduct myself. And I guess I need to not try to be the final A in survival and be more of an observant guest.

Again, my apologies, I was only offering up an extra bit of info that I know has helped me in the past.

Best
Morgan

kgoerz
04-29-2008, 16:58
Here a good website I found: http://wildwoodsurvival.com/

Most of it is "old school" stuff coming from native american traditions i.e. what are the best plants to make cordage from, how to make snares and traps, field expedient shelters, how to make stone tools, etc.

Good sight, I usually print out a couple of their task and we accomplish them while Camping.
What kind of tent are people using on here. I was lucky enough to obtain a Kifaru four and six Man Tepee in a trade. You cant beat the light weight. Also I enjoy camping in the colder weather more (Less people and no Bugs) The Kifaru Tepees are the only ones I know of that let you hook up a stove on the inside. The Stove and Pipe are only about 4lbs and fold up to the size of a large Laptop computer when disassembled.
Downside is the cost. A four Man with Stove runs around $600 last I checked.

Pete
04-29-2008, 17:08
..... What kind of tent are people using on here..

Tents? Tents?

Man, I'm still at the poncho and bungie cord stage. Only way I can keep the wife at home. The girls think "primative" camping is cool.

Diablo Blanco
07-05-2008, 03:06
Great thing about this thread is learning from others something we might not know and are better off because of.

What I like about Bear Grylls and Survivor Man is playing survival critic while watching the show. However if you do watch you are bound to learn something now and then (1 out of 3 shows) that you could use.

For example, before Bear Grylls you would easily find me in the woods hacking wildly at a branch with my knife. I had never thought to use a rock to beat the back of the knife through the wood instead of hacking at it. Great time/strength saver.

From Survivor Man I learned how to make a needle and thread for many uses from an Agave plant which someday might come in handy as I live in the same area.

mugwump - I've had that pocket chainsaw for years now and agree, it is the best. I tried other smaller ones a long time ago and broke them with in 2 minutes. Anyone looking to add to their kit or BOB should add one of those. Great investment overall.

TR originally asked what we would bring and what our priorities are. I'm going on the assumption that I KNOW no one is coming for me for 2 months so certain other requirements fall away.

If I could only carry my items in my pockets/belt this is what I would carry:

Adventure Medical Kits Pocket Survival Pack (AKA Doug Ritter's PSP)
Space Bag
Pocket Chainsaw
Bic lighter
Leatherman Ukiah
canteen with cup and tabs
petzl e+LITE (thing is small!)
AMK Pocket Medic Kit with additional betadine
Sponge sheet
Maxpedition RollyPoly (if you don't have one and want to know how big they can get, you can stuff a poncho liner into it completely or 7 M16 mags)


If I could take a small assault pack and be SUPER comfortable (Wants):

6qt MSR Dromedary bladder
Woobie
Complete IMPS net w/ 2 D-rings
100ft 550 cord
Poncho
1 container Emergency Survival Food Tabs
Morton's Salt
Large can of baked beans
Aquapak http://www.solarsolutions.info/aquapak/aquapak.html
Cold Steel Kukri
Bottle of soap
medium sized sheet of aluminum


If I could bring a firearm I would bring a .22 survival rifle with a box or two of rounds

My Priorities on the first day are (and since this IS A NON HOSTILE situation):
Shelter, Water then fire

Long Term Priorites are:
Sustainable water supply
Sustainable food sources
Comfortable shelter with a view

Tasks are:
Shelter Area selection
Food Prep area selection
Hygiene and Waste area selection

Sire24657 asked what 2 books we would bring if we could:

*Army Survival Guide - (newest edition available)
*Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival

Now to explain some of my extra items so I can hear about potential replacements and downsides as well as add to the discussion.


Space bag - besides obvious uses (sleeping, signaling...) it can also be used to collect water or when it finally falls to shreds can be used to increase the insulation on the shelter. Can also be used to wrap food with for storage.

Leatherman Ukiah - great game knife, has all the tools you need to deal with processing game.

petzl e+lite - I've had one of these for a while. While it isn't a combat tough light it still fits the bill for when you need light at night. It also runs for quite a long time without a battery change.

Sponge Sheet - can be used for many purposes. tear it in half and use one half for filtering, water collection, bathing and the other half (when damp) for TP

Maxpedition RollyPoly - drop pouch basically, plug the drain hole on the bottom and you have a small water blivet for moving water (obviously it'll leak out over time) You can also use to hold captured game, fish, foraged foods or gear when moving.

6qt Bladder - has two parts, the bladder and the cap. Much less items to fail you than a standard camelback. Holds a ton of water

IMPS net w/ D-rings - hammock, fish net, hold your shelter together, fold in half and stuff it for a mattress, use it to help gather wood, leaves, etc.

550 cord - mostly for snares, traps and shelter lashing. It has a million uses

Morton's Salt - TR goes on about salt so much I have finally given in and added more salt to my what-if-lists. for salting meats for storage and daily intake

Large can of baked beans - food for the first and second day, after that the can will be turned into a wood gasification stove so I can conserve my wood fuel sources and cook more efficiently.

Food tabs - to make the first week a bit more comfortable, doesn't have to be in there if it would violate the terms of the 2 month vacation package.

Aquapak -boiling water uses fuel, fuel you have to find daily. This will allow me to spend less time boiling/filtering water and more time on bringing home the bacon.

Bottle of soap - Dr Bronner's to be exact, it's good for everything literally.

Kukri - machete, axe, weapon. Cold Steel makes one that is styled a bit more like a machete for all the machete enthusiasts.


Two Months is a lot of time, and a lot of time to craft additional need/want items. TR mentioned this scenario is a forest. So I'm running with that.Besides obvious need to do tasks here are some extras for consideration. With all the time on our hands we might as well do some large scale crafting.

A site next to the river is not a good idea, however within 200 - 300 meters is. Reason being, your natural waste area needs to be a good distance from the water source down stream from your living area. Your food prep area should be between you and the water source and more than 100 m from either. Just a rule of thumb. Your food prep area/kitchen is going to attract wild life of all kinds as does the water source. Use this to an advantage and set an extra amount of snares and traps inbetween. Additionally you don't want these critters stumbling into your shelter, the extra distances between help eliminate a lot of problems. With your waste area aways off (latrine trench dug of course)

Medium sized project. Using the pocket saw I would fell some decent sized trees with a base trunk size of 1.5 to 2 ft in diameter. I could cut it in 2 ft lengths and using hot rocks from a fire, burn down the center to make them into large buckets for storing water. This is one way woodland Indians would make canoes. It keeps it in one piece and hardens the inside. Of course the water would taste like the tree. This can be scaled down to make bowls, etc.

Large project: Again using the pocket saw, one could cut a 2 ft diameter tree down and cut the trunk into 4 inch lengths that are large discs. Wrap the perimeter of these discs with tightly wound 550 cord. Punch out the center rings and drive two of these onto the ends of a 3-4 ft straight sturdy pole from a sapling and you have 2 wheels and an axle. Keep building up from there and you have a cart. Realistically, with other tasks in mind, the wheels and axle shouldn't take more than 2 days to complete.

Why would you need a cart? To be more comfortable and efficient. You could move large game with it, firewood, rocks and stones. A word of note: This cart will break down from time to time. A wheel might break, the axle, or some other piece. Be sure to save the large tree trunk for the wheels to make replacements.

For my Shelter
I would start the first night with a lean-to. The next day I would begin making a bow structure (dome). I would use saplings/branches implanted a foot or more into the ground at about 12 ft apart in a circle, bow them over and tie them together in the middle. The walls would be interwoven like a mat with smaller branches for the basic structure and build up the outer walls with a mix of river clay/mud and straw/grass/pine needles. I suppose I could make sun baked bricks out of this mix as well to fashion an inside stove/oven. As time permitted I would dig the floor out to make more standing room in the middle along with 'shelves' and an elevated sleeping platform along the walls. Ideally it would be big enough to have a fire inside. So the roof would need a vent that could be covered during inclimate weather. Drainage might be an issue as would a dirty floor. Floor and bedding mats could be made with thin branches, reeds, plants from near the water...

Food
Fish traps and net would be a great provider. Pine needle tea (yes I've had it). Wait by the water at dawn/dusk with the .22 and bag some game. Set snares and traps along the animal paths. Find some abundant edible plants to compliment my meals and I might actually come back from this trip healthier than when I left!

Water
Purification...you either get it right or you don't.

This is a very alternative method, not the most efficient, if you have other ways use them. You can boil water in a hollowed out tree stump using hot rocks from a fire. Get a good hot fire going and put some rocks in the middle. Try not to use porous rocks. When the rocks start getting hot or glowing carefully place them into the hollowed out tree stump. Wait a minute for the thermodynamics to do its work then get them out and replace them with more hot rocks. If you do it right you can boil water this way. You could even make a stew...mmm rabbits...

Build a filter, mint leaves on rocks, on smaller rocks, on large grain sand, on smaller grain sand, on activated charcoal, on cloth. You don't need mint, that's only a forest mojito.

Ceramic filter from river clay. You will need to force the water through it. This is a bit advanced though and depends on too many details for this post.

Or dig a well...no not a deep one! about 4 - 5 feet from a water source, keep it covered. Rotate weekly

Fire away!

The Reaper
07-05-2008, 11:17
Some good ideas there DB, but I do not think you are going to fell a lot of 24" diameter trees unless that pocket chainsaw has a two-stroke engine attached to it. You will most likely get it stuck in the first large tree you try to fell with it, and be without a saw for the rest of your stay. It would be difficult to cut the normal wedge and backcut with one without getting it pinched by the tree. I would not attempt anything over 8" or so with it, maybe 12" if I really needed it. Yes, I own a couple of them and have used them in the woods.

Might be a challenge to pitch your hammock in a dome structure, too.

I would want a multi-tool or SAK, but if you think you can get by with a skinning blade, that is your call.

Personally, I would carry the 550 cord on me rather than as an add-on. Trust me, it can be a lifesaver.

In my experience, you can set up as close to flowing water as you like, if you remember to take your potable water on the upstream side of camp and are the only one in the area (so you are not making anyone sick downstream). Nature is putting plenty of feces, urine, dead fish and animal carcasses, giardia, etc. in the water upstream from you, whether you are there or not.

Otherwise, I like the way you think. Good detailed list with some oddities. Beans???

TR

Diablo Blanco
07-05-2008, 15:41
You are right TR. A 24" inch tree would pinch the saw. I was thinking about this last night and you could make a useable cart with 12" wheels, which would be easier to make and replace than 24".

I hadn't thought to pitch the hammock inside the shelter, I was going to put it outside for naps if any thing. Now that I think about if I can manage to get two standing trees to be a part of the walls then I could do it.

I agree about the multi tool, however I would be using the knife and saw much more in this situation than a multi tool might be able to handle. I'd feel safer with a thinker blade.

550 cord of course, it's part of me boots. To carry on person I suppose at least 20'.

Thanks for the insight TR

The Reaper
07-05-2008, 16:00
Roger all.

Rather than building a cart, a travois or a sled might be a better answer. Not sure what you anticipate hauling that would require a cart with a wobbly wheel system, but I would consider looking at the location of those items, the proximity to water and game, and making the camp closer to the heavy items rather than trying to haul them in. The rings in the slices of logs you make the wheels out of will break out in very short order without bearings, and the axle will need lube, or the friction will hog out the wheel hubs as well.

I thought the same thing about the hammock and the shelter. If it is warm weather, find two trees with the proper spacing, and immediately make a lean to over the line between the trees. then later, create a second roof panel on the opposite side to form a pitched roof which will protect from blowing rain.

I lace my boots with several feet of 550 cord. If you gut the ends where they tie, it is much easier to keep them tied.

No worries, glad to see some new thinking here.

TR

Diablo Blanco
07-05-2008, 18:09
I can easily imagine the ringed parts popping out in short order, but with some pegs and slats you might be able to get them to stay put by laying the slats crosswise across the wheels. For lube you could use animal fat, slime from stagnant water or even feces if you're desperate enough. Be an interesting project nonetheless. You're right, an akhio/travois sled would be much easier to build and maintain.

Taking your suggestion of proximity reminded me of something I used as a kid not being strong enough to move some large objects. You could rig a zip-line/Z-pulley system if you have enough 550 cord and 2 D-Rings.

For example if you have to move large game or even a log too big to carry, you could run a line between trees spaced about 10 - 15 meters apart. Throw a loop around your object and use a Z pulley line with the 2 D-rings to hoist it up to your line. Fasten the D-Ring directly attached to the loop to the line and remove the Z pulley line and extra D ring. You can now slide the object along your line. When you come to a tree where you need to change over to the next line, use your second D-ring before removing the first. Keep changing over between lines to get your object where you want it. You could even do this with less than 40m of 550 cord if you remove the first line as you get to the second and just keep rotating them between trees.

Of course your lines would have to be high enough to account for line sagging and to keep your object off the ground to reduce drag.

With more materials one could fashion an even better system. I would prefer 4 pulleys and climbing rope.

You don't even need trees to do this. Think about a ski lift. If you had enough line from start to finish and could tie it off securely with a little slack. Using three 10 ft poles tied off at one end to make a tripod (tie the bottoms so they don't slip out too far) Make three tripods. The tripods could substitute for trees.

I wonder what other kinds of 'tools' people can come up with in a forest.

EDIT: to answer TR's Q on Beans

They have some nutritional value but more of a traditional/ritual value to me more than anything. Nearly every Adventure, Challenge, Deployment, Hardship or Victory in my life has been precluded by beans. Not intentionally but it just happens that way. Might as well continue the habit.

Besides BBQ Baked Beans are delicious! Dessert and Dinner all in one!

funnyman
03-27-2009, 01:47
In Winter Mountain Warfare School, they had us 100 MPH tape together a lighter to a Chapstick. That one unit was then taped to your dog tags, so you always had it handy.

If you're planning on handling fuel for a small stove/squad-bomb in the winter, you might want to take a pair of rubber dish washing gloves (thick, water-proof and light-weight), otherwise spilt fuel will soak your fiber-based gloves. Plus, they'lll help prevent frostbite caused by spilling fuel on exposed hands.

I took 4 or 5 cotton balls and smooshed vasaline into them. Once I had them in a small ziplock bag, I'd put a bag at the bottom of each ammo pouch. It was an unobtrusive place to keep them, plus it helped push up the mags a bit. Of course, it would be just as easy to store them in your survival/E&E/blow-out kit. Once you lit one of those, it would burn for quite a while even when cold and wet.

-My $.02

blue902
07-24-2009, 18:21
what would you take with you for an extended hike like the AT?

since you can re-up on supplies periodically, maybe once a week on average, what food supplies would you want?

what permanent gear with you?

hope this question hasn't already been used and abused. i read this thread and searched for long hikes. seems like interesting answers could be lying in wait so here it is.

civil
09-02-2009, 13:14
Hope it's ok for me to post, my only tactical experience is boy scouts and camping :lifter

I will post this then go through and read others post's to gain in your knowledge.

I am a big fan of Bear Grylls (I think he's a good guy with good info) and have seen what he can do with limited tools (and a support team standing by for emergencies).

First priorities are:

1 - Water
2 - Fire
3 - Shelter

(since there is a water source nearby 2 and 3 should be relatively close to the water source, animal's and weather conditions permitting)

Once those 3 are set I can now focus on food.

Depending on what the natural conditions are like grubs and insects and possibly plants for food (pine needles if available make for great vitamin C enriched tea)

I would examine the water source for signs of animals and use that to find a track/run and set a snare using my boot lace for deer/rabbit.

While waiting on the snare I would find a good weight stick and try to find some animals to catch (club/throw and hit). If rocks are available they can be used to smooth out and shape the club for better throws (watched Bear do this and nail a rabbit)

Trees might have birds’ nests and since it's spring eggs would be a tasty treat - danger of falling and no medical support would limit how high I am willing to climb though.

If the water source has fish then using sticks in a curve, my shirt and some shoe lace to make a net of sorts can be fashioned to catch some dinner. Also a shoe lace and crafting a hook out of wood could make for a fishing line. Would have to find a nice rock to use for carving the wood. Almost forgot thread from my clothes could be used to make rope or sewing supplies.

Onto water
Filtering the water through rocks and sand and then through my sock would make do for drinking until I can make a bowl of sorts to boil the water in.

Shelter really depends on the type of trees and environment. Lean-to, dome, flat in a tree to keep off the ground and so forth.

Tools I would want to have would be a damn good knife and flint & steel
It would be a huge plus to have some 550 cord and 100mph tape and steel canteen/cup for cooking and drinking.

While waiting my 60 days I would watch for flight patterns and prepare for harsher weather. If tour planes fly by a signal fire would be in order. If I am by an ocean/lake watch for boats. Start exploring to find traces of civilization and help and better food/water supplies.


Well I think that about covers it for now


*edit - I miss read 60 days for 6 months - I will be more carefull

koz
09-02-2009, 16:39
I am a big fan of Bear Grylls (I think he's a good guy with good info) and have seen what he can do with limited tools (and a support team standing by for emergencies).


Maybe a good guy... I don't know him BUT he puts out a lot of really bad info and potentially dangerous info. Notice how many times he says "don't try this..."

The Reaper
09-02-2009, 17:14
Hope it's ok for me to post, my only tactical experience is boy scouts and camping :lifter

That shows.

I will post this then go through and read others post's to gain in your knowledge.

I am a big fan of Bear Grylls (I think he's a good guy with good info) and have seen what he can do with limited tools (and a support team standing by for emergencies).


Bear is a freaking idiot who will get you killed. Do a search for him here.

Chlorine for your gene pool.

TR

civil
09-03-2009, 09:47
Just did a search on Bear Grylls here as suggested.

I do agree with the majority that most of the stuff he does is plain stupid (putting himself in unnecessary danger) and "fear factor" related.

As with anything watched on TV (or most things in life even) you have to separate the good from the crap.

I enjoy seeing the locations he goes to, tricks of the trade he uses (trapping and local info fed to him by local experts brought in by the show) and learning from his mistakes. Seeing someone do something bat shit crazy/stupid can really get you thinking on the proper way to do it.

I get a good laugh at the obviously staged stuff (hey it's TV right) :D

A few of the tidbits I have picked up (filtering out the BS crap) would be telling how long before sunset with your fingers, North with a watch on 2 different hemispheres, North with the stick technique some interesting ways to fish, and if trying to tie something to cloth putting a rock in it and twisting can give the cordage something to hold onto.

Thanks for the reality check on Bear, now back to reading the rest of the posts in this section, some really great info here!

*Edited to add I just finished reading threw all the post's in this thread and there is some great information in here, thank you all for your insight!

greenberetTFS
09-03-2009, 13:01
That shows.



Bear is a freaking idiot who will get you killed. Do a search for him here.

Chlorine for your gene pool.

TR

TR is so right,Bear is frighting......:rolleyes: Be careful on anything he comes up with....... :eek: For your own safety .........;)

Big Teddy :munchin

kgoerz
09-03-2009, 13:31
Who's the Guy on Surviver Man? The one that got busted for not being alone. You could see a reflection of other people in the water when he was suppose to be out on his own. I yet to see him actually catch an Animal in one of his traps.

BryanK
09-03-2009, 13:34
..... Be careful on anything he comes up with....... :eek: For your own safety .........;)

Big Teddy :munchin

Sound advice. I saw a couple weeks ago when he was in a swamp trying to gain a better vantage point by tying his boot laces together (with boots still worn) and using them to scurry up a tree like a climbing stand sort of. I pondered the idea to test it, but an unnecessary risk if the strings wear through. Maybe some 550 cord would do the trick. However, busting my fourth point of contact (at best) after gaining velocity is not my idea of fine holiday fun :D.

civil
09-03-2009, 14:11
I have seen a lot of posts on here about 550 paracord and everyone wants some in their kit, how about a thread dedicated to the 1,001 uses for 550 paracord?

*I browsed all the other threads under Field Craft and nothing really seems to cover this

Brush Okie
09-03-2009, 16:44
I'll give it a shot. Give you something to laugh at me about. I take it appropiate clothing is available.

Pritories-

Water
Shelter
Food.
fire

Gear-

Knife w/sharpener- build shelters, gut and skin game, various jobs.

Dental floss or fishing line- used to set up "trout lines" you can make hooks out of things like hawthorns etc. cordage for this can be made from the natural enviroment, but I am not good enough at that to say I would survive doing it. You can also use these to set up snares for small game, tie things off etc etc. For more information on setting up fishing lins click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EetkGEIbn0&feature=PlayList&p=B92436D881F35DD5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=11

Canteen cup- Cook in, drink out of. I don't need to go on about it here.

.22 rifle with 100 rounds of ammo or possably good compound bow with enough arrows.- Hunting small and large game. Even deer sized game can be taken with a .22 if the shot is placed right. Dont ask me how I know this ;) The bow can be used as well, but the rifle is better. I bow hunt so know the realities of what can and can not be done. The advantage of a bow is the ammo can be reused unless it is somehow damaged, even then can sometimes be repared.

Bic lighter. Fire. Even if the fluid runs out the starter still makes sparks and fires can still be started with it, just not as easy.

Shelter is not that hard to make in the proper terrain. We all made "forts" in the woods as a kid, I am sure I can come up with something even now. As for water I know the book says to purify water, but I grew up drinking out of small streams so I can make it 60 days if I had to. Yes I got guardia once but I lived through it and so can you. What I CAN'T live without is water for 60 days. Saying that I have a water filter now. You can make your own water filter from charcoal from your camp fire and a plastic water bottle with moss to filter out the charcoal.

The type of terrain has a lot to do with what I would need. (METT-TC) Surviving for 60 days means living through it, not being comfortable and happy. If I were setting out for that long a trek I would have more gear as well as a "companion" ;) to keep me company.


I am sure the experts here will tear me apart on this one.

armymom1228
09-03-2009, 23:30
Prettty much what Teddy said. Hel, we might as well get slammed together.

So, if I understand this right. It is what I can stuff in my pockets? NO guns for me. thank you..

So since I am a civilian, and knowning me at that time of yr. I would most likely be weating my favorite pants, nylon, boys pants. regular front and back pockets and then those side pockets on the leg. long sleeve undershirt, flannel shirt, northface jacket, long sleeves, one of my 8 foot long 2 ft wide scarves.

knife, magnifying glass, flint and striker, safety pins. box of dental floss, compass. wristrocket and marbles. cup to heat water and cook in. That was pretty much what I carried in my pockets as a kid. The cup was one of those fold down models.. or I scrounged, a dead tin can at times to heat stuff in. Multitool, would aslo be great, one with a saw blade on it. Few meters of thin wire might be good too..

priority: Shelter, fire, water, food. Lots of food in the woods, starving is not an option. Yeah, same here Teddy. I drank and still drink whatever local water there is. mmm, a plastic bag or two to make a simple catchment system for rainwater or dew might not be bad to add to the list.

safety pins make fish hooks. you can make a trot line with green vines or a fish trap. Wrist rocket will bring down small game and some larger young game.
Shelters are easy to make. NC? red clay.. ewwww.. oh joy..

So are was stuck and have to wait it out for 60 days OR can we just use our compass or the sky and walk ourselves out of this wilderness back to civilization and indoor plumbing?

rltipton
09-04-2009, 18:58
Question: if you are going to stay there until picked up, how important is it to know where you are? Is a compass important to have or not?

A Silva Ranger would be on my list. The old ones had a magnifying glass that will start a fire (many will not), a signal mirror, the compass naturally. I carried one the whole time I was in...great tool.

In fact, if the thread was "What 3 things would you choose" I would still choose a Silva Ranger as one of my items. The other 2 would be a knife, and a big ball of 550 cord. There isn't much you can't do/make with those 3 things.

Penn
09-04-2009, 22:12
Chlorine for your gene pool…. TR thats F'nin Brilliant..... LMFAO

jw74
09-08-2009, 10:29
Bear is a freaking idiot who will get you killed.
TR

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-470155/How-Bear-Grylls-Born-Survivor-roughed--hotels.html

Channel 4 last night began an investigation into the claims, which follow a number of embarrassing incidents in which programmes screened by the station were found to have misled the public.

Grylls's show attracted 1.4million viewers when it was shown in March and April, with audiences enthralled as he demonstrated gruesome survival tips that included sucking the fluid from fish eyeballs and squeezing water from animal dung.

But an adviser to Born Survivor yesterday claimed that many of his other escapades were not exactly as they seemed on TV.

In one episode filmed in California's Sierra Nevada mountains he was shown biting off the head of a snake for breakfast and boasting that he was living on 'just a water bottle, a cup and a flint for making fire'.

Viewers were not told that he was actually spending some nights in the Pines Resort hotel at Bass Lake, where the rooms have Internet access and is advertised as 'a cosy getaway for families' complete with blueberry pancakes for breakfast.

In another episode when Grylls declared he was a 'real life Robinson Crusoe' stuck on a desert island, he was actually on an outlying part of the Hawaiian archipelago and retired to a motel at nightfall.

Mark Weinert, a survival consultant brought in for the programme, said one show also wrongly gave the impression that the adventurer built a Polynesian- style raft using only materials around him, including bamboo and palm leaves for a sail.

Mr Weinert had in fact led a team that built the raft, which was then dismantled so that Grylls could be shown constructing it on camera.

In another episode, Grylls was filmed attempting to lasso 'wild' mustang in the Sierra Nevada, when the horses were actually tame and had been brought in by trailer from a nearby trekking station.

'If you really believe everything happens the way it is shown on TV, you are being a little bit naive,' Mr Weinert told the Sunday Times


These survivor/field craft threads are VERY educational. Thanks for the wisdom

Dozer523
09-13-2009, 00:02
The Little Dude and I were watching Bear, today.
He rappelled a long way down down a cliff (long as in almost a rope length). Next, he is walking off with the rope packed.
"How did he get his rope off the top of the cliff, Dad":confused:
"The caterer probably dropped it to him.":p

Diablo Blanco
09-16-2009, 01:50
The Little Dude and I were watching Bear, today.
He rappelled a long way down down a cliff (long as in almost a rope length). Next, he is walking off with the rope packed.
"How did he get his rope off the top of the cliff, Dad":confused:
"The caterer probably dropped it to him.":p

I had some interest in this little trick of his so I looked it up.

http://www.douglasbsa.com/knots/sheep.html

Cutting the line in the middle of the sheep shank will allow someone to give the rope a little flip and it will come down. Bear said in the episode to keep tension on the line after making the cut or it will come undone. Also it shouldn't be done with newer synthetic ropes as they slip.

Speaking of ropes. Has anyone heard of or used 'toggle ropes (http://troop418.net/Forms/toggle.pdf)'? I suppose several have and wonder about uses other than climbing, make-shift stretcher, tying up people or using in a shelter that one might have for these.

Blitzzz (RIP)
09-16-2009, 11:49
You can't rappel over a Sheep shake. Does he unhook and rehook under the knot? One would be willing to die desperate to try that. One could do a one rope rappel with a Meunter hitch, but you'd loose a snaplink on the top. Just be careful.

Any Hitch will hold the weight and release when pressure is off of it. A hitch (clove or girth) tied around a post will work, but awfully risky.

Bad Tolz
09-16-2009, 19:38
There are 2 styles of brush cutters/machetes I have solid success with:
Woodsman's Pal (been around since WWII and was GI issue)http://www.woodmanspal.com/ It has excellent steel. It can fell a tree, split wood (baton), gut game, dig and is a formidible edged weapon.

The Gerber brush cutter is also a bill hooked short machete. The blade is thinner and overall weight is lighter. Good quality.http://www.gerbergear.com/

Diablo Blanco
09-29-2009, 23:03
You can't rappel over a Sheep shake. Does he unhook and rehook under the knot?

If I remember correctly he simply body rappelled.

TF Kilo
12-22-2009, 13:11
You can't rappel over a Sheep shake. Does he unhook and rehook under the knot? One would be willing to die desperate to try that. One could do a one rope rappel with a Meunter hitch, but you'd loose a snaplink on the top. Just be careful.

Any Hitch will hold the weight and release when pressure is off of it. A hitch (clove or girth) tied around a post will work, but awfully risky.

I E&E'd from MP's on Fort Benning off Eddy bridge via a rappel and recovered my rope via the sheep shank with cut center.. My thinking at that point in time, was that I might not have been able to feed 150m of rope easily around the anchor point for a double line, and if the knot failed for whatever reason, I was just falling in "the hooch". The anchor point was a bowline around a square concrete pillar with a piece of carpet to protect the rope from abrasion when we first set out on the rappelling. The intent was to have fun for a day then head back home... not to have some passer-by do-gooder call the MP's on us.

We saw the cruiser come around the far corner, untied, moved closer to the center of the bridge, anchored, my buddy went down, then I tied the hitch once I was clipped in and cut the rope when I had tension on the line... a couple flips got it undone once I was in the water.

Still surprised I got away on that one, my vehicle wasn't THAT far in the wood-line. Not something I'd recommend over terrain that impact would be frowned upon, though.

TF Kilo
12-22-2009, 14:05
One thing that I'll also add to the mix that won't work:

You most likely won't be able to start a fire using a pistol cartridge that you pulled the bullet from. I was curious, and tried it with .45 ACP out of my USP tactical... nice pile of tinder shaved from a stick with a good paper cup for the powder out of a reciept I had in my pocket. Used my multi-tool to pull the bullet in a rather ugly fashion, loaded the empty brass w/ primer in the pistol.. placed all of my fire materials in my woodstove, and hammer-fall promptly just blew everything everywhere.

Bored, curious to see if it'd work.. There's obviously better methods, but I was just seeing if an unconventional approach might work in unconventional circumstances. At least with my implementation, it won't.

Sten
12-22-2009, 14:08
One thing that I'll also add to the mix that won't work:

You most likely won't be able to start a fire using a pistol cartridge that you pulled the bullet from. I was curious, and tried it with .45 ACP out of my USP tactical... nice pile of tinder shaved from a stick with a good paper cup for the powder out of a reciept I had in my pocket. Used my multi-tool to pull the bullet in a rather ugly fashion, loaded the empty brass w/ primer in the pistol.. placed all of my fire materials in my woodstove, and hammer-fall promptly just blew everything everywhere.

Bored, curious to see if it'd work.. There's obviously better methods, but I was just seeing if an unconventional approach might work in unconventional circumstances. At least with my implementation, it won't.

You have a gun, bullets, multi tool and stove why don't you have a bic?:D

Tourist
12-22-2009, 16:24
Good thread.

Bear is a twonk, we think so in the UK too. He has a nice life making TV programmes with lots and lots of back up, support and in the field help and assistance. As I recall even the BBC were not too impressed when it came out he was, for want of a better description, pulling cons in the field. He is best watched with the same regard as watching any other light entertainment show and he is definately no substitute for training followed with experience.

I made my first PSK over 30 years ago and even though I am now a civilian I still have one which is updated and modified regularly.

Back to the origianl question of what would I need for 60 days in the ulu: My old survival instructor would give me a clip on the back of my head and tell me anything more than a knife is classified as camping.

What I would want most is knowledge. You can never know enough.

A decent blade would be good: 4 inch drop point full tang blade with black micarta handles. Bushcraft style, plain, simple, reliable.

My PSK, containing:
fish hooks
fish line
micro leatherman, the scissor style version
micro LED torch
needles with large eye and small eyes (this allows use of thread or paracord inner cord)
potassium permanganate powder
6 ibuprofen tablets
full size space blanket (in a small ziploc and kept compact with about a yard of electricians tape)
half a dozen or so cotton wool balls for tinder (smeared with vaseline and zip-loced)
one inch length of swedish firesteel (needs to be cut under water)
10 * strike anywhere matches
2 * sachets of sugar
2 * sachets of salt
pack of scalpel blades
4 inch length of hacksaw blade
craft knife blade
12 inches 100mph tape
pencil (borrowed from IKEA, this has the 100mph tape wrapped around it)
handcuff key ;)
tiny magnetic multi colored flashing light (for parties and attracting SAR)

This is all squeezed into one of the old decontamination kit containers, you know the plastic pot thing a bit like a tupperware container. It is kept closed with 6 elastic bands and then double bagged with ziploc bags that are intended as water carriers. I used to have a folded aluminium foil food container kept under the elastic bands but used it a while back and did not replace it (down and give me 10). I was taught to make a reduced photocopy map of the area I would be in and stash that in my PSK also, just in case. I know some guys who stash a sachet of sports drink powder with their PSK and then put the PSK into a clean pair of socks and then double bag it ....... go juice and clean socks.

My boot laces are all 550 cord, the cords in jackets have all been replaced with 550 cord and I carry around a 5 foot length of 5mm kernmantle to use for making bow drills ......... IMHO paracord/550 is kack for bow drills.

Direction finding: Shadow stick; sun rise & sunset; stars. The watch method has been shown to be unreliable by academic gentlemen using far greater knowledge than my own so I defer to them.

Fire lighting: Bow drill; hand drill (painful, but I have managed it); Swedish steel; flint and steel using charcloth or dried fungus as the tinder; if you have a carbon blade knife you can use the back of the blade against a flint to produce sparks; spectacles if you wear them to ignite tinder. My survival instructor told me to always carry about six Bics dotted around various smock and trouser pockets, I added a twist to this taught me by a USAF Vietnam vet. He said that in Vietnam a lot of the guys used to put an elastic band around their zippos to make them slip-proof so they would not fall out of their pockets ... so I added an elastic to my Zippo and my Bics.

Eating: Running after antelope or wilderbeast and dropping them with a pithy little spear works for Abo's and bushmen. Personally, I have problems snaring rabbits so I try to learn about edible plants to make sure I will not starve.

Shelter: My tarp and hammock would be nice but if not then I would find high ground and make a nice thermal 'A' frame with a well placed fire and reflector.

Water: Boiling at the very least, preferably filtering followed by boiling which is better. It is not too difficult to improv a decent filter using tree bark, moss and charcol from the campfire. A pot to boil in is the big problem, not many of those in a PSK as they are generally only intended for short time frames. Still, if it was all there it would be camping and not survival.

zpo
12-22-2009, 16:51
One thing that I'll also add to the mix that won't work:

You most likely won't be able to start a fire using a pistol cartridge that you pulled the bullet from.


Les Stroud did this with a rifle, and it took somewhere around 7 rounds to light a fire. Did you try using the powder with a spark based fire starter? I'd be curious if that were doable.

Sten
12-22-2009, 16:55
Les Stroud did this with a rifle, and it took somewhere around 7 rounds to light a fire. Did you try using the powder with a spark based fire starter? I'd be curious if that were doable.

If your trying to survive why exactly would you use a bullet for anything other then shooting something that you can eat or that is trying to kill you?????

zpo
12-22-2009, 17:00
If your trying to survive why exactly would you use a bullet for anything other then shooting something that you can eat or that is trying to kill you?????
Go back and read the OP's situation. There are times when fire is whats gonna save you. That being said, having a gun is cheating anyway.

ETA; Clarification.

TF Kilo
12-22-2009, 18:26
Sten, I was basically curious if it was a viable technique, and if it was, if it was reliable.

My equipment has 3 different methods for starting fire, and 2 different tinders that will light from what I carry. I was curious to see if I could accomplish the task via another method that I always have on my person, specifically from my pistol.


If it could save my life in a bad situation, it's a round well spent in my eyes.

Unfortunately, as zpo mentioned, it took 7 rounds from the supply for a rifle to accomplish the task. That's getting expensive.

Anyway, enough sidetrack from the point of the exercise.

peshguy
01-13-2010, 19:32
Les Stroud AKA "Survivor man" lit a fire with a rifle, but it took him several tries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwKnyDR5KA&feature=related

google "Les stroud katrina" and there is some really great stuff on youtube

The Reaper
01-13-2010, 20:54
The barrel of most rifles is long enough to ensure a complete burn of the powder before the bullet clears the muzzle.

Carbines are an exception.:D

I have not tried this, but I expect that a handgun with the powder charge still in the case and a wad (cloth, wax, etc. on top would probably ignite suitable tinder, especially if it contained another load of powder.

In any event, I find a small ferrocerium rod in the accessory side pocket of my Leatherman case much more convenient and reliable.

TR

Buck
01-13-2010, 21:47
You are dropped uninjured into a remote forest environment wearing BDUs and boots. Your pockets are empty and you have no additional gear. You are non-tactical, i.e., no enemy is hunting you. It is in a temperate climatic area, in the spring. Daytime highs are in the 70s, but at night it drops below 40. There is a natural water source of unknown potability nearby. No known shelter is available. If located, you may be rescued sooner than 60 days, but that may not happen. You are going to remain in the immediate area and not walk out for at least the next two months.

What are the minimum tools and equipment you need to survive for 60 days in this environment?

What are your essential tasks? What are the priorities?

Feel free to add to this list of questions as needed, and let's see the least extensive list you feel you could survive with.

TR

Appreciated all the info I read in this thread. One firestarter I didn't see was using a standard 9 volt battery, which taking 2 in a small kit, and a nice wad of Steel wool, will produce many fires. Just takes a pinch of steel wool, which you swipe the contacts of the battery across, to produce a fast flame....thoughts? Note though, pack the battery seperate from the steel wool Grasshopper, or your emergency kit will catch fire...lol

Buck

PSM
01-13-2010, 22:04
Appreciated all the info I read in this thread. One firestarter I didn't see was using a standard 9 volt battery, which taking 2 in a small kit, and a nice wad of Steel wool, will produce many fires. Just takes a pinch of steel wool, which you swipe the contacts of the battery across, to produce a fast flame....thoughts? Note though, pack the battery seperate from the steel wool Grasshopper, or your emergency kit will catch fire...lol

Buck

You can't be sure that the 9v will be alive when you need it. Even a dead Bic will spark. I cut the sparker off of a Bic and stuffed several petroleum-jelly infused cotton balls wrapped in foil in the base and plugged with duct tape. It's all smaller than a 9v batt.

Pat

Dozer523
01-14-2010, 07:43
You can't be sure that the 9v will be alive when you need it. Even a dead Bic will spark. I cut the sparker off of a Bic and stuffed several petroleum-jelly infused cotton balls wrapped in foil in the base and plugged with duct tape. It's all smaller than a 9v batt.

PatWeight and cube.
If it doesn't have at least one other use, it doesn't make this packing list. What else can I use steel wool for?

The Reaper
01-14-2010, 17:42
Weight and cube.
If it doesn't have at least one other use, it doesn't make this packing list. What else can I use steel wool for?

Polishing metal for a signal mirror.

I still prefer a butane lighter, or ten.

TR

zpo
01-14-2010, 17:48
The barrel of most rifles is long enough to ensure a complete burn of the powder before the bullet clears the muzzle.

Carbines are an exception.:D

I have not tried this, but I expect that a handgun with the powder charge still in the case and a wad (cloth, wax, etc. on top would probably ignite suitable tinder, especially if it contained another load of powder.

In any event, I find a small ferrocerium rod in the accessory side pocket of my Leatherman case much more convenient and reliable.

TR


Or, combining the two. Ferro rods and gunpowder has got to be fun.

armymom1228
01-18-2010, 00:01
Appreciated all the info I read in this thread. One firestarter I didn't see was using a standard 9 volt battery, which taking 2 in a small kit, and a nice wad of Steel wool, will produce many fires. Just takes a pinch of steel wool, which you swipe the contacts of the battery across, to produce a fast flame....thoughts? Note though, pack the battery seperate from the steel wool Grasshopper, or your emergency kit will catch fire...lol

Buck

What someone else said about the battery being dead. I bought a magnesium firestarter at a Rendevous many yrs back. Never looked back. Have several now. I bought one of these last summer for the car kit.
magnesium firestarter (http://www.ctfischerknives.com/magnesium_firestarter.htm)

Barbarian
11-05-2010, 14:27
would a few multi-vitamins be worth the extra space, if your eating nothin' but plants and small animals for two months?

Blitzzz (RIP)
11-05-2010, 17:21
For what they provide with so little weight, it a "No starter"....BarBarian

The Reaper
11-05-2010, 19:12
I would not consider it essential. If you reread the initial post, it is supposed to be the minimum to survive. Lack of vitamins should not kill you in less than 60 days.

TR

Barbarian
11-06-2010, 18:54
Thank you for answering my question, sirs.

I would take a good fixed blade, at least 5" (though 8-10" would make splitting firewood easier.) A bic lighter, and some 550 cordage.

My skill with snares is lacking, though I believe I could make due with bugs and snakes. Bugs taste like crap, but will keep ya going. Snakes don't taste too bad though.

PSM
11-06-2010, 19:01
My skill with snares is lacking, though I believe I could make due with bugs and snakes. Bugs taste like crap, but will keep ya going. Snakes don't taste too bad though.

Tabasco Miniatures (http://countrystore.tabasco.com/prodinfo.asp?number=00006) ;)

Pat

The Reaper
11-06-2010, 21:15
Thank you for answering my question, sirs.

I would take a good fixed blade, at least 5" (though 8-10" would make splitting firewood easier.) A bic lighter, and some 550 cordage.

My skill with snares is lacking, though I believe I could make due with bugs and snakes. Bugs taste like crap, but will keep ya going. Snakes don't taste too bad though.

Good minimalist answer.

If the area were not likely to have manmade waste lying about, like cans, a container to hold/boil water and cook in would be a huge boon. Heavy duty foil, if nothing else.

If I were going to add pills, while vitamins would be good, antibiotics could actually save your life.

Also, as we mentioned earlier, you can live sixty days without salt, but having some will sure make your life better.

Finally, I would go for a big knife you could chop with, but it sure would be nice to have a multi-tool for the smaller tasks.

Agree on the BIC and the 550 cord.

There are some great tips here. Thanks for revisiting it.

TR

Barbarian
11-08-2010, 07:19
There are some great tips here. Thanks for revisiting it.

TR

Thank you sirs for the privelege.

Nightfall
11-08-2010, 11:22
What someone else said about the battery being dead. I bought a magnesium firestarter at a Rendevous many yrs back. Never looked back. Have several now. I bought one of these last summer for the car kit.
magnesium firestarter (http://www.ctfischerknives.com/magnesium_firestarter.htm)

I second this one...

Nightfall
11-08-2010, 11:31
Thank you for answering my question, sirs.

I would take a good fixed blade, at least 5" (though 8-10" would make splitting firewood easier.) A bic lighter, and some 550 cordage.

My skill with snares is lacking, though I believe I could make due with bugs and snakes. Bugs taste like crap, but will keep ya going. Snakes don't taste too bad though.

Depends on the snake. I used to live under a bridge when I was younger, moccasins taste like swamp water, as do copper heads but not as bad (IMHO). The turtles reminded me of underdone chicken, but I usually would palm some stuff from a grocery to help with the flavor, either that or hit a McDonalds for slat packets... That is another story though...

Crap just realised that was a double post, sorry about that. Oral surgery today, not thinking real clear..

Diablo Blanco
02-22-2011, 12:23
TR, I saw this picture and thought of you re: earlier in this thread

Sapper124
07-27-2011, 21:02
This is a Nalgene Kit I've put together. It is a bit large and weights a few lbs but would be part of my BOB that I am also building. It's pretty large to be part of 2nd Line so I have it part of my 3rd line.

Contents include:

Nalgene Bottle
Mini Compass (on nalgene cap)
Red Photon light (on nalgene cap)
10 feet of heavy duty all weather duct tape wrapped around the bottle
18oz steel cup (boiling water)
Small medical array to include a scalpel blade, various bandaids
30 100mg ibuprofen, 20 benadryl, 10 Clariton, 5 200mg hydrocodene
1 chapstick
1oz tube of neosporin
1 large bic lighter
2x 50ft 12lb fishing line
fishing kit: (2 3ft steel leader, 3 18inch 15lb leader, various swivel and split shot, various J hooks)
Light my fire spark starter
1 heavy duty emergency blanket
1 bottle of water purification tabs
10 fire wicks
1oz Nu-Skin
1 heavy duty commando wire saw
1 spool booby trap wire
1 small tube of super glue
100ft daisy chain 550cord


Things I am thinking about adding: unlubricated condoms for water transport and a small utility tool (I've seen tiny leather-man's 3inchs and smaller)

Thoughts? Comments? Critiques?

Pete
07-28-2011, 06:09
...........Things I am thinking about adding: unlubricated condoms for water transport and a small utility tool (I've seen tiny leather-man's 3inchs and smaller)

Thoughts? Comments? Critiques?

You have the bottle. Make a small tote sack out off parachute type nylon with a gutted 550 cord draw string top just big enough to hold all that gear then stuff it on top of everything in the bottle.

If you do need to carry water you can put everything in the tote and use the bottle. Plus you know how much it holds.

The daisy chained 550 cord takes up a lot of space. Make 4 25' lengths. Take each one and make a loop roll the length of your spread out fingers and use the last 18"s to whip it into a tight bundle. Might give you enough room to stuff a couple more small items.

Sapper124
07-30-2011, 11:14
Thanks for the input Pete. Saved quite a bit of space and now have a tote bag to put all the contents in when using the nalgene for water! original thought was to put everything in pockets, but this will condense it and keep all the contents in one easy to access place.

zpo
08-13-2011, 11:33
all the contents in one easy to access place.

And in one easy place to be lost. Make sure its a good bag and lanyard/harness, and go ahead and spread things out to your pockets except for bulky things to stay in the tote. You'll be in better shape if you lose your tote.

Sapper124
08-16-2011, 20:51
Didnt plan on having them all in one bag toted around while using the nalgene. Ill have them in my pockets etc. but in the event I do not have the privilege of pockets, the bag will serve a great purpose ;)

Traweek
12-15-2011, 13:43
I just finished my Christmas shopping for my Brother-in-law and thought I'd share it. It's kinda bulky but he can add/subtract what he wishes. Let me know what you guys think.


Emergency Kit Contents
QTY ITEM
1 48oz Nalogene Bottle
1 25ft. Gorrilla tape around bottle
1 75ft 550 cord w/gut around bottle
1 5ft 1in 100mph tape
1 emergency blanket
1 emergency poncho
1 folding knife
1 pen light
1 tube anitbiotics
1 pack bandaids
2 depth adjustors
1 mag bar w/ blade
1 s-biner
2 12"x12" reusable clothes
1 non latex gloves
1 fishing kit ( hooks, weights, bobbers)
1 tube superglue
1 9 hr candle
1 roll duct tape
1 bottle remington oil
1 frog gig
1 wood/metal saw blade
1 compass
1 bottle GULP bait
1 water prurification tabs
1 can/ bottle opener/ spoon
1 24oz metal cup
1 Sewing kit (taped inside frog gig)
1 2ft x 2ft tin foil
1 8" x 12" zip lock bag
1 bic lighter

Bitz
12-15-2011, 13:45
I just finished my Christmas shopping for my Brother-in-law and thought I'd share it. It's kinda bulky but he can add/subtract what he wishes. Let me know what you guys think.


Very nicely done! That will make an awesome Christmas gift.


~Bitz

Golf1echo
12-15-2011, 15:45
I like the frog gig, might put another lighter in "One is none two is one". perhaps some snare wire? That would be a great gift to receive!

Traweek
12-15-2011, 16:20
I like the frog gig, might put another lighter in "One is none two is one". perhaps some snare wire? That would be a great gift to receive!

I forgot to list the Snare wire but it's there. I have the Mag Bar and some matches, but another lighter wouldn't hurt.
Thanks..

The Reaper
10-22-2013, 12:09
Salt.

TR