View Full Version : NASTY bridge collapse
CPTAUSRET
08-01-2007, 18:02
in Minneapolis! On FOX news right now!
CPTAUSRET
08-01-2007, 18:12
FOXNews.com
Major Freeway Bridge Collapses in Minnesota
Wednesday, August 01, 2007
MINNEAPOLIS —
A freeway bridge over the Mississippi River in Minneapolis collapsed Wednesday, sending many cars into the water, injuring 20 to 30 people, authorities tell FOX News.
Tons of concrete have collapsed and people are injured. Survivors are being carried up the riverbank.
This bridge connects downtown Minneapolis and the University of Minnesota.
The entire span of the 35W bridge collapsed about 6:05 p.m. where the freeway crosses the river near University Avenue.
Some people are stranded on parts of the bridge that aren't completely in the water.
A tractor-trailer is on fire at the collapse scene.
Refresh the page for updates on this developing story.
Been watching it on Fox News for the past 30-40 minutes, it's absolutely terrible. :(
CPTAUSRET
08-01-2007, 18:26
Been watching it on Fox News for the past 30-40 minutes, it's absolutely terrible. :(
It's going to be a nightmare getting rescue workers in and out!
Indeed, Sir. Especially with darkness falling... Prayers out to the families and the folks that were on that bridge.
Forgotten
08-01-2007, 18:39
CNN confrims 3 dead. God be with those that are still out there.
CPTAUSRET
08-01-2007, 18:40
CNN confrims 3 dead. God be with those that are still out there.
That number is bound to go higher!
Forgotten
08-01-2007, 18:43
That number is bound to go higher!
I pray your wrong but I know your right. They say around 50 to 100 cars were on the bridge during the collapse. I can only hope they are able to save most of those that have went into the water.
Our Prayers go out to those Familys of the Missing, Hurt and dead.
Offer a prayer for those involved and give thanks that we and our's are safe.
CPTAUSRET
08-01-2007, 18:50
Offer a prayer for those involved and give thanks that we and our's are safe.
AMEN, brother!
2018commo
08-01-2007, 19:02
Prayers out to the first responders, what a nightmare.
I hope we have a EMAC with them.
The Reaper
08-01-2007, 19:20
Thank God that it happened this time of year and not in the winter.
I wonder why the structure would fail?
TR
Indeed, Sir. Especially with darkness falling... Prayers out to the families and the folks that were on that bridge.
+1. Amazing, is it not, how all of a person's hopes, dreams, and plans can change in an instant - without warning. It's a reminder to not put off telling those close to us that we care.
I wonder if this is going to strengthen that argument that has been popping up lately that the infrastructure in America is becoming too worn down and aged.
I've heard the same thing, but not recently.
Here is a report from 2005.
http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/page.cfm?id=103
I wonder why the structure would fail?
TR
Good question. This bridge spans over 400 feet, but had no pillars in the middle to support it. Pretty surprised to hear that bit of news, seems a long stretch of road especially over a river not to have additional support from below.
On Google Earth, there's a web cam shot of the bridge at about 300 deg. It's called "Mafia Bridge".
Pat
I only saw the coverage first thing this morning. My prayers are out to all those affected by this tragedy.:(
Fox is reproting the use of Divers to go in and recover folks, whose cars are in the Mississippi...am curious what kind of Diver would be called in for such a task?
So glad to see all the kids on the schoolbus made it out safe though.
Holly
I wonder if this is going to strengthen that argument that has been popping up lately that the infrastructure in America is becoming too worn down and aged. Some event happened in the past that sparked this I believe, then that thing in NYC exploded, now this bridge collapsed.
$190,000,000 is a lot of money but that is just what was raided this year from the two trust funds NC maintains for road projects.
The politicians raid the funds each year to pay for pork and then start calling for toll booths on I-95 to pay for road projects. And the voters line up to reelect them every time.
And the next phase of the outer loop around Fayetteville has been delayed - "AGAIN"
bkleonards
08-23-2007, 13:51
Well gents, here is the rest of the story. It is a shame that so many lost their lives (RIP).
Corrosive Dung Coated Beams
Experts Tie Pigeon Dung, Bridge Collapse
By MARTIGA LOHN,AP
Posted: 2007-08-23 13:52:09
Filed Under: Nation News
ST. PAUL, Minn. (Aug. 21) - Pounded and strained by heavy traffic and weakened by missing bolts and cracking steel, the failed interstate bridge over the Mississippi River also faced a less obvious enemy: pigeons.
Photo Gallery: Bridge Collapse Probe
Jim Mone, AP Pigeons gather under the Robert Street bridge Friday in St. Paul, Minn. Investigators are now looking at the impact of pigeon dung on the collapse of the interstate bridge in Minneapolis on Aug. 1.
1 of 7
Inspectors began documenting the buildup of pigeon dung on the span near downtown Minneapolis two decades ago. Experts say the corrosive guano deposited all over the Interstate 35W span's framework helped the steel beams rust faster.
Although investigators have yet to identify the cause of the bridge's Aug. 1 collapse, which killed at least 13 people and injured about 100, the pigeon problem is one of many factors that dogged the structure.
"There is a coating of pigeon dung on steel with nest and heavy buildup on the inside hollow box sections," inspectors wrote in a 1987-1989 report.
In 1996, screens were installed over openings in the bridge's beams to keep pigeons from nesting there, but that didn't prevent the building of droppings elsewhere.
Pigeon droppings contain ammonia and acids, said chemist Neal Langerman, an officer with the health and safety division of the American Chemical Society. If the dung isn't washed away, it dries out and turns into a concentrated salt. When water gets in and combines with the salt and ammonia, it creates small electrochemical reactions that rust the steel underneath.
"Every time you get a little bit of moisture there, you wind up having a little bit of electrochemistry occurring and you wind up with corrosion," said Langerman. "Over a long term, it might in fact cause structural weaknesses."
Langerman emphasized that he wasn't saying pigeon dung factored into the collapse of the 40-year-old bridge. "Let's let the highway transportation and safety people do their job," he said.
The problem is familiar to bridge inspectors everywhere.
The Colorado Department of Transportation spent so much time cleaning pigeon manure off bridges that it is embarking on a two-year research project looking for ways to keep pigeons away from its spans.
"It can be damaging to our structures because it's slightly acidic and it has other compounds in it that can dissolve especially things like concrete," said Patricia Martinek, the agency's environmental research manager.
Pigeon guano isn't just a danger to the bridges.
In the Denver area, the Colorado DOT pays outside environmental specialists to clean bridges wearing full biohazard suits with respirators because of heightened fears about bird flu and other diseases, said Rob Haines, who supervises maintenance there.
Keeping pigeons off bridges usually requires a multi-pronged strategy that can include netting to block holes and surfaces, spikes to keep them from landing, and sometimes poisoning, shooting or trapping the birds, said John Hart, a Grand Rapids, Minn.-based wildlife biologist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
The problem is that pigeons are naturally drawn to bridges and tall buildings since they're descended from cliff-dwellers, said Karen Purcell, who heads Project PigeonWatch at the Cornell Lab of Ornithology. Bridges offer shelter from predators and flat surfaces for nesting and roosting.
"It's a nice fit for them," Purcell said.
Meanwhile, the National Transportation Safety Board issued an update on its findings in the collapse Wednesday, saying investigators are looking at whether chemicals used in an automated de-icing system had any corrosive properties.
The state Transportation Department wasn't concerned about the system; in fact, the agency is planning to install a similar system on the replacement bridge, said Khani Sahebjam, a state transportation engineer.
The de-icing elements are inside the concrete deck, Sahebjam said, so he wouldn't expect them to pose a structural problem.
The automated system was triggered by weather conditions and kept the state from having to send crews to spread de-icing chemicals, Sahebjam said.
Had to edit last line. Bob L.
The Reaper
08-23-2007, 14:26
That is speculative, and may or may not be a contributing factor to the collapse.
I will wait for the NHTSA report before blaming any one cause.
TR
On a related infrastructure note, does anyone else think pulling up all the railroad tracks (that at one time seemed to lead to almost every Smalltown, USA in the country) is a bad idea? Here we are, scratching our melons trying to figure out a way to reduce our dependence on petroleum, while at the same time removing a viable alternative to truck and air transport. Sure, current trains use diesel fuel, but I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be a huge leap to figure out a way to power an engine with alternative fuel cells, electricity, or some other means that doesn't fully depend on oil. Of course, even if that occured, the track infrastructure is now almost non-existent outside of major lines.
incommin
08-23-2007, 14:38
On a related infrastructure note, does anyone else think pulling up all the railroad tracks (that at one time seemed to lead to almost every Smalltown, USA in the country) is a bad idea? Here we are, scratching our melons trying to figure out a way to reduce our dependence on petroleum, while at the same time removing a viable alternative to truck and air transport. Sure, current trains use diesel fuel, but I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be a huge leap to figure out a way to power an engine with alternative fuel cells, electricity, or some other means that doesn't fully depend on oil. Of course, even if that occured, the track infrastructure is now almost non-existent outside of major lines.
Electric motors drive the wheels. The trains of today are diesle-electric......
Jim
The Reaper
08-23-2007, 14:38
Absolutely.
It is like BRAC. Once those bases go, they ain't ever coming back. The EPA, among others, would never allow it.
IIRC, the diesel-electric locomotive was no more efficient or powerful than the coal fired steam versions, just quicker to start and go, and a bit cleaner.
The tracks are disappearing fast. Almost everything moves by truck now but bulk products, but that could change again.
TR
Airbornelawyer
08-24-2007, 12:44
Rail is not a viable alternative. Trucks aren't ubiquitous because we pulled up so much track. We pulled up the track because rail is inefficient compared to road, and rail couldn't compete in a free market. Where rail "works", it is heavily subsidized, and even there, trucks are often preferable for transporting goods (your typical two-lane Autobahn is really one lane because all the trucks transporting goods from as far away as Turkey and Romania tie up the right lane).
We are far more likely to invest in and find alternative fuel vehicles before alternative fuel rail becomes viable. The rise of gasoline prices over the last few years may be an incentive in that direction, but note that even though prices are really high now, adjusted for inflation they are below the price in the 1980-81 oil crisis and generally at or below the pre-WW2 price when rail was more viable.
And rising gas prices aren't the only factor. Rail is not just inefficient in terms of fuel costs, but it is inefficient in terms of modern supply and inventory systems, which generally rely on the just-in-time inventory system. Rail may work okay for large bulk deliveries to warehouses or other storage facilities, but that is generally not how wholesale and retail marketers in most industries work these days.
I am not to far from a major Railroad swithing, and transfer station. It is constantly going and trains run throughout my city about every hour sometimes more. Trains are a part of life here and I have seen no decrease in the number of trains passing through this county in the last 40 years. Most are longer than 40+ cars which makes a traffic nightmare around hear. Some of the trains are running 3-4 locos and when they pass by (about 1 1/4 miles away) their is no mistaking the sound. Kinda gets you nerves going when it happens in the middle of thunderstorm though.:D
Last week was interesting in the fact that one of three bridges here that is of the exact same build as the one in Minnesota had traffic backed up for 7 miles. Anybody want to try and guess what for?
Also, they supposedly checked out the other two bridges within the week. All of them are very high, especially the Route 8 bridge and the "High Level" Bridge. Both of which are well known for their number of suicides. Just ecently
the "High Level" Bridge broke the 1,000th suicide.:(
Corrosive Dung Coated Beams
Experts Tie Pigeon Dung, Bridge Collapse
By MARTIGA LOHN,AP
Posted: 2007-08-23 13:52:09
Filed Under: Nation News
ST. PAUL, Minn. (Aug. 21) - Pounded and strained by heavy traffic and weakened by missing bolts and cracking steel, the failed interstate bridge over the Mississippi River also faced a less obvious enemy: pigeons. ...
When I saw this it jogged my mind about one of the "ask" columns in the Fayetteville Observer a couple of days ago. A lady asked "What happened to all the pigeons that used to be around the bridge at the AA Expressway and Raeford Rd?" Nobody knows, all the pigeons are gone.
That got me to thinking because I remember when there were tons of pigeons around town. Also seagulls in the large shopping center parking lots. A few years ago I started seeing more and more hawks - don't know the kinds - around town. Heard three big owls in my neighborhood at night in my neighborhood a few months back. Anyway - now no pigeons. Maybe the hawks ate the pigeons.
Such is life.
Rail is not a viable alternative. Trucks aren't ubiquitous because we pulled up so much track. We pulled up the track because rail is inefficient compared to road, and rail couldn't compete in a free market. Where rail "works", it is heavily subsidized, and even there, trucks are often preferable for transporting goods (your typical two-lane Autobahn is really one lane because all the trucks transporting goods from as far away as Turkey and Romania tie up the right lane).
We are far more likely to invest in and find alternative fuel vehicles before alternative fuel rail becomes viable. The rise of gasoline prices over the last few years may be an incentive in that direction, but note that even though prices are really high now, adjusted for inflation they are below the price in the 1980-81 oil crisis and generally at or below the pre-WW2 price when rail was more viable.
And rising gas prices aren't the only factor. Rail is not just inefficient in terms of fuel costs, but it is inefficient in terms of modern supply and inventory systems, which generally rely on the just-in-time inventory system. Rail may work okay for large bulk deliveries to warehouses or other storage facilities, but that is generally not how wholesale and retail marketers in most industries work these days.
I agree with you that rail is not a viable alternative to truck, plane or boat right now. My point was that like BRAC (you're on the same wavelength as I on this one, TR), once the infrastructure is gone, reobtaining it will be practically impossible, either physically or financially.
Airbornelawyer
08-24-2007, 21:31
The increasing cost of coal did not lead to a return to wood, but to a new fuel source. I just don't think rail would be viable for many reasons and I expect alternative fuel vehicles to be what replaces gasoline powered vehicles once oil becomes too expensive (not when it runs out; we won't run out of oil any more than we ran out of coal).
It might be worthwhile to consider the possibility that crude oil (and hence liquid fuels) will continue to increase in price substantially - despite the addition of alternative liquid fuels (bio-fuels, ethanol, bio-diesel), and alternative transportation technologies (electric cars, fuel cells).
The Federal Railroad administration points out that trains are significantly more fuel efficient than other modes of transportation:
A 1991 study performed for the Federal Railroad Administration analyzed relative freight rail and truck fuel efficiency. The study, A Rail vs. Truck Fuel Efficiency@ , which was designed to compare fuel use for a variety of route/commodity combinations where rail and truck are competitive, found that rail achieved higher ton-miles per gallon than trucks, carrying similar commodities over 32 routes studied.
LINK (http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/977)
A study done at the University of Minnesota includes (on page 7 of 12):
Various independent studies have shown that railroads have a definite allocative efficiency advantage over other modes in providing some transportation services. When all costs are taken into consideration—internal costs absorbed by firms and external costs such as pollution and congestion--railroads often generate lower marginal costs than the other modes. An efficient economy would favor railroads in these cases. One reason this may not happen is that it is difficult for political authorities to impose these external costs on truckers and shippers in the form of user fees for congestion/pollution/safety.
LINK to PDF (http://www.trb.org/conferences/railworkshop/background-McCullough.pdf)
We might wish to critically examine claims that bio-fuels of any sort will let us continue as we are; one paper that considers the EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) was published in 2005 by Pimentel and Patzek. While there are references that produce more optimistic results, Pimentel & Patzek's conclusions and the reasons for those conclusions, seem salient to any dialog about bio-fuels. The 12 page PDF is worth reading, in my opinion.
LINK to PDF (http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/Biofuels/NRRethanol.2005.pdf)
There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that demand for liquid fuels has low price elasticity. This coupled with the seeming development of a plateau for production of crude oil plus natural gas liquids leads some to believe that liquid fuels will be markedly more expensive in future. All of which, if true, suggests that the railroads are an unrecognized national treasure.