View Full Version : Marine: Beating of Iraqis Became Routine
If this testimony is to be believed, it is shocking.
:confused:
Holly
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=070715&cat=news&st=newsd8qd0oig0&src=ap
Marine: Beating of Iraqis Became Routine
Updated 7:58 AM ET July 15, 2007
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (AP) - A Marine corporal testifying in a court-martial said Marines in his unit began routinely beating Iraqis after officers ordered them to "crank up the violence level."
Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo testified Saturday at the murder trial of Cpl. Trent D. Thomas.
"We were told to crank up the violence level," said Lopezromo, testifying for the defense.
When a juror asked for further explanation, Lopezromo said: "We beat people, sir."
Within weeks of allegedly being scolded, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman went out late one night to find and kill a suspected insurgent in the village of Hamandiya near the Abu Ghraib prison. The Marines and corpsman were from 2nd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment.
Lopezromo said the suspected insurgent was known to his neighbors as the "prince of jihad," and had been arrested several times and later released by the Iraqi legal system.
Unable to find him, the Marines and corpsman dragged another man from his house, fatally shot him, and then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to make it appear he had been killed in a shootout, according to court testimony.
Four Marines and the corpsman, initially charged with murder in the April 2006 killing, have pleaded guilty to reduced charges and been given jail sentences ranging from 10 months to eight years. Thomas, 25, from St. Louis, pleaded guilty but withdrew his plea and is the first defendant to go to court-martial.
Lopezromo, who was not part of the squad on its late-night mission, said he saw nothing wrong with what Thomas did.
"I don't see it as an execution, sir," he told the judge. "I see it as killing the enemy."
He said Marines consider all Iraqi men part of the insurgency.
Lopezromo and two other Marines were charged in August with assaulting an Iraqi two weeks before the killing that led to charges against Thomas and the others. Charges against all three were later dropped.
Thomas' attorneys have said he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury from his combat duty in Fallouja in 2004. They have argued that Thomas believed he was following a lawful order to get tougher with suspected insurgents.
Prosecution witnesses testified that Thomas shot the 52-year-old man at point-blank range after he had already been shot by other Marines and was lying on the ground.
Lopezromo said a procedure called "dead-checking" was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified.
"If somebody is worth shooting once, they're worth shooting twice," he said.
The jury is composed of three officers and six enlisted personnel, all of whom have served in Iraq. The trial was set to resume Monday.
groundup
07-15-2007, 15:23
I wonder if Cpl Lopezromo is being charged with anything.
I wonder if Cpl Lopezromo is being charged with anything.
Sounds like a "plea Bargain" testimony to me.
groundup
07-15-2007, 16:12
Sounds like a "plea Bargain" testimony to me.Exactly - sounds like he would rather shame his men, unit, country, and the entire military than go to jail for his own actions. It would be just as despicable for his Officers to have made such an order and not stand up to take accountability for their actions.
Thomas' attorneys have said he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury from his combat duty in Fallouja in 2004. They have argued that Thomas believed he was following a lawful order to get tougher with suspected insurgents.How do they know that isn't causing him to make this up? I am sure that defense can be used in prosecution as well. RL would know better on that.
Either way, someone died and the truth is still being hidden.
Ambush Master
07-15-2007, 16:37
I would suggest that ALL of you, except for those that WERE THERE, draw back/pull-up and let this not be flogged by the UN-KNOWING!!!!!:mad:
Later
Martin
Ambush Master
07-15-2007, 16:42
How many of you, answer with a simple Me, have ever been in a hostile engagement with people who would kill you if they had the chance???? (Much less with those who are born onto this earth to KILL US!!) And killed them?!?!?!
I'll open it up!!!
ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I may be opening a can of worms here, but I can't help wondering if this isn't a sign of the times. I don't mean to belittle any member of the Marine Corps, but given the crop of movies about badass Marines (Heartbreak Ridge, Full Metal Jacket, and Jarhead), I wonder if their actions are beginning to mimic their "persona". The former Marines - let me reword that as 'not currently serving' - I've known and work with, are nothing like what the movies show. They are decent, hard working, professionals who take extreme pride in their service to their Country.
Unfortunately there are some who buy into that crap about being the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley. And it's not just the Marines! I've known some US Army types who thought the same way...up until the bullets start flying.
Well, I've said it and it's out there for you to think over and shoot me down. I hope to God I'm wrong, but I've got a nagging thought that won't go away - that maybe we're victims of our own design.
Ambush Master
07-15-2007, 16:58
I may be opening a can of worms here, but I can't help wondering if this isn't a sign of the times. I don't mean to belittle any member of the Marine Corps, but given the crop of movies about badass Marines (Heartbreak Ridge, Full Metal Jacket, and Jarhead), I wonder if their actions are beginning to mimic their "persona". The former Marines - let me reword that as 'not currently serving' - I've known and work with, are nothing like what the movies show. They are decent, hard working, professionals who take extreme pride in their service to their Country.
Unfortunately there are some who buy into that crap about being the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley. And it's not just the Marines! I've known some US Army types who thought the same way...up until the bullets start flying.
Well, I've said it and it's out there for you to think over and shoot me down. I hope to God I'm wrong, but I've got a nagging thought that won't go away - that maybe we're victims of our own design.
HS,
You were composing this when I posted above.
Later
Martin
How many of you, answer with a simple Me, have ever been in a hostile engagement with people who would kill you if they had the chance???? (Much less with those who are born onto this earth to KILL US!!) And killed them?!?!?!
I'll open it up!!!
ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Been there - Done that
Ambush Master makes a good point.
I've never been in such a situation; how could I reasonably judge what the people there might have done? It's easy to sit in air conditioned comfort, well-rested and well-fed, and second guess those who work under immense stress - but I think it leads to poor conclusions.
I would also note that this dovetails with another thread, where the nature of news from the war was discussed. This appears to be another instance of negative news about our forces being broadcast; could it be intended to influence public perceptions?
Matta mile
07-15-2007, 18:26
I was assigned to MNF-W (al Anbar province under USMC control) as an advisor working with the I.A. 04'-05'. Alot of stuff happened and I certainly was not everywhere but as pointed out above, hind sight is always 20/20 particularly when those doing the judging have been conditioned by our media, lifestyles and personal choice to make decisons in 90 seconds or less. While it may very well be true that the behavior in question is factual, I have serious doubts that any emphasis on violence (outside of perhaps a rare ambush), was diseminated as a "need".
MM
jevo1976
07-15-2007, 18:33
I agree with Ambush Master 100% here. If you want to see possibly the best example of an armchair QB trying to persecute a Marine for something he did under the stress of combat then check this out. It's Scott Pelley's interview on 60 Minutes with Marine SSG Frank Wuterich.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/15/60minutes/main2574973.shtml
I recommend watching the video to get the full effect. It can be found to the right of the screen. I remember watching this when it aired on CBS and yelling at the T.V. - mainly at Scott Pelley the interviewer. The look on Pelley's face and his tone just make me want to punch something. CBS and Scott Pelley hung this Marine out to dry. This is also why I don't watch 60 Minutes anymore.
My thoughts are a little different.
This is a repeat of what has already has happened. Creating a culture of defeat. First the civies buy in to it, then the military people.
A good link;
http://www.25thaviation.org/johnkerry/id27.htm
All along partisan politics is serving the enemy.
I know there were a lot of times, especially in 2003, that it took every ounce of me not to pull the trigger or depress the butterflies at someone who I felt, at the time of course, deserved it. Especially when the bastards started changing clothes on us or waving at us in undershirts, boxers, and shined combat boots. Or that one m'f'er who was using a girl's school classroom as a perch for his RPG attacks... :mad:
I have a feeling these poor men just caught up in the heat of the moment and are now suffering for it.
ME!!
When this broke, a long time ago, I said let the Marines handle it. IMO they are fair and thorough.
When My Lai broke I was in RVN andI was in full defense of the troops involved. As truth came out my opinion changed 180 deg. Some things are understandable but that doesn't make them justifiable. That is a rhetorical "Things" not specific..
Still with holding judgement.
hunteran
07-15-2007, 23:21
I agree with Ambush Master 100% here. If you want to see possibly the best example of an armchair QB trying to persecute a Marine for something he did under the stress of combat then check this out. It's Scott Pelley's interview on 60 Minutes with Marine SSG Frank Wuterich.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/15/60minutes/main2574973.shtml
I recommend watching the video to get the full effect. It can be found to the right of the screen. I remember watching this when it aired on CBS and yelling at the T.V. - mainly at Scott Pelley the interviewer. The look on Pelley's face and his tone just make me want to punch something. CBS and Scott Pelley hung this Marine out to dry. This is also why I don't watch 60 Minutes anymore.
:mad: My blood is boiling right now! The media's attitude towards our troops is absolutely disgusting.
groundup
07-15-2007, 23:26
There are 1/2 truths and whole lies that come from the media and I don't take much of it seriously. Who am I to pass judgment on someone when I don't know more than what echoes posted and I don't even know if that is true? Hypothetically speaking if someone were to kill someone, then put a weapon in their hand to make it look as though it was self-defense, that is definitely murder and the person knew what they were doing was wrong.
Bill Harsey
07-16-2007, 05:03
I agree with Ambush Master 100% here. If you want to see possibly the best example of an armchair QB trying to persecute a Marine for something he did under the stress of combat then check this out. It's Scott Pelley's interview on 60 Minutes with Marine SSG Frank Wuterich.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/15/60minutes/main2574973.shtml
I recommend watching the video to get the full effect. It can be found to the right of the screen. I remember watching this when it aired on CBS and yelling at the T.V. - mainly at Scott Pelley the interviewer. The look on Pelley's face and his tone just make me want to punch something. CBS and Scott Pelley hung this Marine out to dry. This is also why I don't watch 60 Minutes anymore.
I don't watch 60 Minutes anymore because I won't watch CBS for reasons like above.
Doing what Ambush Master says on this one.
Just want to say...I WAS NOT THERE!
My appologies to any who took offense at my post. No arm-chair QBing here.
And I have learned something...those of us who are not in theatre do not know what is happening. I stand proudly willing to defend the actions of Our Bravest...so that We may sleep peacefully at night.
Holly
a.k.a...single thirty something chick...praying for Our Brave Soldiers.:lifter
Matta mile
07-16-2007, 18:24
No offense taken Holly. Its a great country where the people can convey different view points and concerns and that they care enough to do so. Thanks for your support.
MM
How many of you, answer with a simple Me, have ever been in a hostile engagement with people who would kill you if they had the chance???? (Much less with those who are born onto this earth to KILL US!!) And killed them?!?!?!
I'll open it up!!!
ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also.
Never could follow instructions ;)
If this testimony is to be believed, it is shocking.
Holly
Nothing wrong at all Holly. "If" is certainly the operative word.
There have been four convicions in the case. It is pertinent to note that all jurrors are Marine veterans of Iraq.
Things can happen in thew heat of battle and other stressful circumstances.. These circumstances can mitigate things but the crime stands. There is a world of turf between "Justifiable Homocide" and cold blooded "Pre-meditated murder." That is the job of the jury to sort thatout.
MM...Sir, This IS a great Country...thanks to folks like You who keep it so. :lifter
QRQ 30...Sir, Thank You for that information, honestly, I did not know that the Jury was comprised of Marine Vet's. I do hope that the truth sets all to rights.;)
We all know many, many Real Americans that pray for all of Our Bravest! Since They are the ones who face the danger and day-to-day choices, we will continue to pray they come out alive and safe.
Holly