View Full Version : Memos: Blackwater Team Sent Wrong Way
Team Sergeant
07-09-2007, 19:11
eric prince, owner of blackwater, you're a scumbag.
Team Sergeant
Jul 8, 11:19 PM EDT
Memos: Blackwater Team Sent Wrong Way
RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) -- Internal memos show that four security contractors who were ambushed and killed in Iraq three years ago were told to go through the dangerous city of Fallujah when a safer route was available, a newspaper reported Sunday.
The memos said a Blackwater USA supervisor also plucked two members of each six-man team for other work, reducing the teams' numbers and making them more vulnerable to attack, The News & Observer of Raleigh reported.
Memos from the second team - whose leader decided to go around Fallujah on March 31, 2004, and which wasn't attacked - said the teams also were sent without maps, although other memos suggest maps were available, the newspaper said.
"These reports were written by people who were not there," Blackwater spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell told The Associated Press. "The answer to what really happened in Fallujah is a tragedy in which four brave men were killed."
Tyrrell said she couldn't comment on specifics because of pending litigation and wouldn't comment on the memos.
A team called Bravo 2, which went around Fallujah, said both teams were told to go through the city but got back to Baghdad safely because they took a different route than the one they were told to use.
The other team, called November 1, went into the city as instructed, escorting empty trucks, and ran into a deadly ambush, according to the memos.
The Bravo 2 memos said the decisions were made by Blackwater's site manager in Baghdad, despite protests that the teams had too few people and weren't ready, the newspaper said.
Bravo 2 was ordered the morning after it arrived from the United States to go to the Jordanian border, pick up an executive for a food service company and take him to Baghdad, a memo said.
Team members protested that they hadn't had time to sight their weapons to be sure they were accurate. They were told to do their job or go home, a memo said.
Families of the four men killed sued Blackwater. The company (Blackwater) countersued and won a ruling that the disputes would be heard in closed arbitration sessions instead of open court.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_BLACKWATER_DEATHS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US
Team Sergeant
07-10-2007, 10:11
Why did the Team Sergeant call eric prince, the owner of blackwater a scumbag?
Former Navy SEAL eric prince knows why.
eric knows that in an open court he would lose this case. eric knows that those men were sent to their deaths the minute they were told that they could not zero their weapons.
The butcher of Baghdad got nothing on eric prince.
Now you kids may ask “Why is it so important to zero your weapons before you head into terrorist country?”
Let me put it this way, I, the Team Sergeant know it’s extremely important, so does every Professional Soldier, especially special operations forces, so does eric prince and the military leadership of blackwater.
It’s so critical that I would challenge any blackwater employee to a one on one, me armed with a zeroed weapon and ONE bullet, the other guy could have as many bullets as he chooses, the weapon, un-zeroed. Hear that eric prince?
Zeroing your weapon is that important and it becomes exponentionally critical when you are a team of FOUR.
Eric prince knows if this case went into open court he would lose, the defense would be calling on real SOF, SEAL and Special Forces, experienced soldiers, to testify just how important it would be to possess a zeroed weapon. Want to bet blackwater’s weapons “experts” include former mall security guards?
Now eric prince counter-sues the families of the men blackwater sent to their deaths; I've yet to read a more disgusting news article.
Bravo eric prince, bravo blackwater. I’m sure you’ll win in “closed arbitration”.
Team Sergeant
Team Sergeant
07-10-2007, 11:02
Oh and eric prince….. as one SOF soldier to another, do you (and BLACKWATER), need me to go and find a bridge for your lawyers to HANG the wives, mothers, fathers brothers and sisters of the men that were killed that day?
Team Sergeant
82ndtrooper
07-10-2007, 11:55
If I were Eric Prince, which I thank my God I'm not, I'd steer clear of Team Sergeant at "Shot Show 2008" :munchin :eek:
Well 82ndtrooper, my guess is there are a lot of folks he would do best to stay away from.
His actions, and subsequent lawsuit for closed door arbitration sessions, shows me how much of a no good POS he is...among other things. :mad:
The Reaper
07-10-2007, 14:01
The really sad thing is that he has more than enough money to have taken care of business.
Clearly, people are not a priority, probably not even in the top ten at BW.
I have been at his facility when he was out stunting around in one of his airplanes, and they regularly stopped training on the 1000 yard range for extended periods so that he could land one of his planes there.
I have never heard anything good about this Company. I would really like to know what they tell all those people who sign up for their training and then are committed to working for BW. Or how do they keep these people from jumping ship after the training.
The Reaper
07-10-2007, 14:45
I have never heard anything good about this Company. I would really like to know what they tell all those people who sign up for their training and then are committed to working for BW. Or how do they keep these people from jumping ship after the training.
People who are not SOF have to pay to take the pre-deployment training. At one time, if you signed on for a two-year contract, they would take it out of your pay in installments. They were hiring a lot of people with little or no military experience, and unemployment was high in that part of NC.
Kind of the company store approach.:rolleyes:
TR
NousDefions794
07-10-2007, 17:44
Like it or not BW is here to stay (mainly because of dirty tricks like “closed arbitration sessions”). Their success will definitely come from their Army of lawyers. In the future it will be very difficult to mention private security and not think of BW.
They hire people from Government organizations and all of a sudden get the contracts. Their competitors end up “losing” their paperwork in the bid process. BW makes the money and then shortchanges the guy on the street.
I have worked with so many disgruntled BW guys that I have lost count. Most of them great guys and many of them former SEALs. There are good people working for them and I have friends working for them. I constantly try to help them out when they ask for info about other jobs, because they got screwed over by BW.
I have met too many people who showed loyalty and did favors for the "leadership" at BW only to not have it returned in the end.
Sorry for the rant, but this is sore subject for me.
Team Sergeant
07-10-2007, 20:55
Seems there are interested individuals reading this thread.
Seems they want to know if in fact I am a Special Forces soldier. Fact; I am a retired Special Forces Master Sergeant and eric prince is a scumbag.
eric prince, you're a scumbag and you run a scumbag company.
You've sold your integrity and shown just what you and blackwater are made of....scum.
Sleep well scumbag.
Team Sergeant
82ndtrooper
07-10-2007, 21:26
Here is Scott Helvenstons last email to Eric Prince and other upper management to Black Water before being sent to his death.
IIRC, Scott also voiced his concern to upper management that they had not zeroed their weapons, along with other basic preparations, and that he was a last minute change to join the team on that fatal day. He was concerned that having not trained with the team was a poor move on Black Waters part and dislpayed a lack of understanding of team dynamics in a hot theater. RIP Scott. Seems Eric Prince was more than ready to send one of his own former SEAL brothers right smack into a "BUZZSAW"
I'll not be giving be giving any rec's to Black Waters training courses. I attened two courses in 2003. I'll not be attending anymore with my hard earned money.
The Virginian Pilot/Hamptonroad.com
© July 26, 2006
Former Navy SEAL Scott Helvenston, one of four Blackwater contractors ambushed and killed in Fallujah on March 31, 2004, e-mailed his superiors at Blackwater the night before leaving on the fatal mission. Excerpts from the e-mail, provided by Helvenston’s family:
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 7:30 PM
Subject: extreme unprofessionalism
To the Owner, President and Upper Management of Blackwater Security,
It is with deep regret and remorse that I send you this e-mail. During my short tenure here with Blackwater I have witnessed and endured some extreme unprofessionalism. First, I would like to begin this e-mail with a few positive notes. My training began on March 1st. During my 10 days of training I experienced some quality training conducted by quality instructors. … Unfortunately though I must explain to you there is an individual amongst the ranks that has proven to be a very manipulative, duplicitive, immature and unprofessional. …
Three days ago I was put on a team with two of the men who came down from Baghdad. Cool … ready to go! Yesterday that was changed. OK, things seem to be a bit disorganized but I am still on it. … At roughly 2200 hrs. this evening I receive a call asking me if I can leave tomorrow 0500 with a new team leader. God’s honest truth … my response was no. My bags were not packed and I just didn’t feel up to it.
As I sit here at 0300 in the morning finalizing this document I respectfully request to keep my job. I get along with everyone here. …
I intend to meet with all my teammates tomorrow. I ask you to speak with at least 3 of them to get the full picture.
Respectfully,
Scott Helvenston
http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=108118&ran=10360
I can't remember the last time that something made me that mad.
Those are the kind of gross tactical errors and poor command descisions that I would expect out of a PFC or LCpl that I was allowing to play squad leader during a simunitions excercise. NOT what I would expect out of a former member of the special operations community.
Having not ever been a member of that community I apologize if I am out of line with that statement, but I hope Eric Prince burns in hell next to Saddam.
:mad:
I guess money does mean more then the lives of your bothers eh eric?
Rot in hell.
Now you kids may ask “Why is it so important to zero your weapons before you head into terrorist country?
Maybe Dr. Gary Roberts, Doctor of Ballistic Dentistry who once purchased a t-shirt in the gift shop at Stanford, did some gel testing for BW showing that it is unnecessary. :munchin
One of the documents you sign, when you go to work there in addition to release of liability and confidentiality agreement, is a "binding arbitration" agreement. It's very uncomfortable signing all of these forms when you know exactly what you are giving up
The Old Guy
07-11-2007, 07:34
Money corrupts and I have many SOF friends who will not work and do their best to sway individuals the other way and to find other employment. But I also have friends that work in BW and have for several years without many problems.
IMHO there are much better companies to work for than the above mentioned.
There is a novel or book out about BW which I saw at a book store in Kuala Lumpur two weeks back; I didnt buy it as I had already bought the excellent book by former navy seal Couch book about becoming an SF....but might give it a look the next time I head over there...
I gather it gives a pretty negative look at BW and also how they got all their contracts....anyone read it yet?
Edited author of book.
The Reaper
07-11-2007, 10:02
There is a novel or book out about BW which I saw at a book store in Kuala Lumpur two weeks back; I didnt buy it as I had already bought the excellent Mst.Sgt Couch book about becoming an SF....but might give it a look the next time I head over there...
I gather it gives a pretty negative look at BW and also how they got all their contracts....anyone read it yet?
Dick Couch was not a Master Sergeant, he was a Navy SEAL officer.
TR
Team Sergeant
07-11-2007, 11:45
Blackwater manager blamed for 2004 massacre in Fallujah
Military contractors write that a site manager sent four Americans on an ill-advised, fatal mission
Joseph Neff, Staff Writer
When four Blackwater USA security guards were ambushed and massacred in Fallujah in 2004, graphic images showed the world exactly what happened: four men killed, their bodies burned and dragged through the streets. A chanting mob hung two mutilated corpses from a bridge.
Since then, Congress and the families of the murdered private security contractors have been demanding answers: Why did the lightly armed and undermanned team go through the heart of one of Iraq's most hostile cities? Why did the two teams sent out that day have four members, not the usual six?
Some answers can be found in memos from a second team for Blackwater operating around Fallujah on March 31, 2004.
Blackwater, based in North Carolina, sent two squads through Fallujah without maps, according to memos obtained by The News & Observer. Both of the six-man teams, named Bravo 2 and November 1, were sent out two men short, leaving them more vulnerable to ambush.
The Bravo 2 team members had protested that they were not ready for the mission and had not had time to prepare their weapons, but they were commanded to go, according to memos written by team members. The team disregarded directions to drive through Fallujah and instead drove around it and returned safely to Baghdad that evening.
The November 1 team went into Fallujah and was massacred.
The Bravo 2 team memos, in emotional, coarse and damning language, placed the blame squarely on Blackwater's Baghdad site manager, Tom Powell.
"Why did we all want to kill him?" team member Daniel Browne wrote the following day. "He had sent us on this [expletive] mission and over our protest. We weren't sighted in, we had no maps, we had not enough sleep, he was taking 2 of our guys cutting off [our] field of fire. As we went over these things we new the other team had the same complaints. They too had their people cut."
The memos surface amid heightened congressional scrutiny of Blackwater, a private security firm based in Moyock, and the private security industry, which grows ever more valuable to the Pentagon. Reports last week indicate that there are now more private contractors than troops operating in Iraq. Blackwater has received hundreds of millions of dollars in federal contracts.
The aftermath of the killings shows one difference between contractors and the military. Had an officer sent four lightly armed soldiers into Fallujah, he would likely have faced public scrutiny in the military justice system. In this case, the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform has been trying to get documents such as these memos from Blackwater without success.
The families of the four men killed in the ambush -- Jerry Zovko, Wesley Batalona, Scott Helvenston and Michael Teague -- sued Blackwater in Wake County Superior Court in an effort to find out what happened. Blackwater countersued the estates of the four men in federal court, successfully arguing for arbitration, in which the proceedings are closed to the public and the investigation of the incident can be much more limited.
Continued here:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/630475.html
The families of the four men killed in the ambush -- Jerry Zovko, Wesley Batalona, Scott Helvenston and Michael Teague -- sued Blackwater in Wake County Superior Court in an effort to find out what happened.
Blackwater countersued the estates of the four men in federal court, successfully arguing for arbitration, in which the proceedings are closed to the public and the investigation of the incident can be much more limited.
May those at bw involved in this CRIME, be brought to justice! Then...may they burn hot in hell! :mad:
Holly
magician
07-11-2007, 12:31
TR makes a key point, in my opinion. Blackwater has enough funding to make sincere settlement offers to the estates of the deceased.
That would have been the right thing to do, in my opinion.
Maybe that was attempted. Whatever.
Playing legal games, trying to keep the lid on by going to arbitration, is not going to work.
Eventually, the truth will get out.
Remington Raidr
07-11-2007, 12:42
I'm not a big fan of such, but it might be just the ticket in this case.
magician
07-11-2007, 12:47
I'm not a big fan of such, but it might be just the ticket in this case.
It would not surprise me if it is on "the list" of things to do on the Hill.
The Reaper
07-11-2007, 13:14
TR makes a key point, in my opinion. Blackwater has enough funding to make sincere settlement offers to the estates of the deceased.
That would have been the right thing to do, in my opinion.
Maybe that was attempted. Whatever.
Eventually, the truth will get out.
I was at BW headquarters shortly after this incident, and the impression I got was that just the opposite occurred.
The story I got there was that they tried to recover every dime they could from these guys, then shipped the bodies back as freight and told the families to come to Dover and collect them. They did start a victims' fund where people could contribute to a fund for the families to help them out. At the time, IIRC, the owner of BW was worth over $500,000,000.
Given the fact that they were allegedly providing fewer people than the contract required, working them excessive hours to make up for it, not providing key and essential contractor provided equipment, etc., I wonder if the US government recovered a portion of the contract payment?
Wouldn't billing the USG for personnel and services agreed to in the contract, but not provided, be prosecutable as fraud?
TR
Surf n Turf
07-11-2007, 14:22
Blackwater manager blamed for 2004 massacre in Fallujah
Military contractors write that a site manager sent four Americans on an ill-advised, fatal mission
The Bravo 2 team memos, in emotional, coarse and damning language, placed the blame squarely on Blackwater's Baghdad site manager, Tom Powell.
Team Sergeant,
Looks like you are correct in damning the “right people” (Eric Prince, et al) --- I do not know Tom Powell, or his role in the assignment, but based on the following it looks like he tried to give Hdqs a rocket that he was in need of equipment. If he made the assignment without outfitting his men, then he should be pitchfork to pitchfork with Mr. Prince.
"(AP) Blackwater E-Mail Outlines Gear Shortage"
A day before four of the company's security guards died in Iraq, a Blackwater USA employee wrote company officials that it was time to stop the "smoke and mirror show" and provide crucial equipment for the private army in the field.
"I need Comms (communications equipment). ... I need ammo. ... I need Glocks and M4s. ... Guys are in the field with borrowed stuff and in harm's way," said the e-mail, released at a House hearing Wednesday.
Blackwater's Iraq operations manager at the time, Tom Powell, wrote the memo to other company officials on March 30, 2004.
http://www.wkrn.com/nashville/news/ap-blackwater-email-outlines-gear-shortage/76231.htm
SnT
Roguish Lawyer
07-11-2007, 14:46
Wouldn't billing the USG for personnel and services agreed to in the contract, but not provided, be prosecutable as fraud?
If done with "scienter" (a type of intent), yes.
frostfire
07-11-2007, 21:27
Al Clark, Blackwater initial founder and Erik Prince's SEAL instructor, left Blackwater in 2000 over "philosophical differences."
(copy and paste)content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=108025&ran=16612
I wonder if Blackwater current reputation reflects that differences.
The full transcript of the house oversight here
(copy and paste)iraqslogger.com/downloads/February_7__2007__HOUSE_OVERSIGHT_ON_FRAUD.pdf
The news back then gave me chills as I and a colleague was planning to find engineering jobs in Iraq. What breaks my heart is Scott's mother was told her son was still alive when dragged through the streets before being decapitated and torched. RIP to the Navy SEAL and Rangers
I have never worked for BW, but have lived & worked with them in Iraq over the last 3 years. You will find some great, squared away guys and you will also find some true s$%^bag, non-tactical, pretty-boy, drunken, un-professional oxygen theives.
At one time there were many, older SEAL type guys running the show.As they got bigger, I've seen more and more.....shall we say less qualified people. I'm not saying "less -qualified" because they are not SEALs, but folks that display poor judgement, lack of SA, ego and problems with alcohol. There is often a certain arrogence about them because they are "Blackwater". IE because they are BW, they are better than "Big Army", other IC's doing security work and they far more HSLD.....than they actually are. I think allot of this has resulted in BW as a company be held low regard by the more experianced folks in the security business. Personnally I do not want to work for them.
I can't comment on Eric Prince or how coporate operates as I have no experiance with them. So I will not repeat rumors. Every outfit has its 10% that are turds....unfortunately BW has higher percentage.
Remington Raidr
07-12-2007, 20:10
You can be just south of superman, but if your check, active duty or contact, is signed by a dickhead, you are screwed. I hate to sound negative, but if you read this thread, I would think, even if you had the skills, you just might be reluctant to hang them out, AD or contract. Fvcking sad.:confused:
The Reaper
07-12-2007, 20:45
It occurs to me that once God and Country are out of the equation, and you are a contractor, professionals in this business take risks for adequate compensation.
When the risks outweigh the compensation, professionals will no longer take the job.
Also, once professionals get wind of the fact that they are considered to be expendable by the company, they will leave. Unless the compensation is exceptional.
When that happens, you have to increase pay, reduce risk, or hire people who don't know any better.
You can find people who will clean a nuclear reactor core with a toothbrush, if you offer enough money. You can also find someone who will do it for a lot less if you are willing to waive the prereqs and standards, and they don't know any better.
I think that most of the pros there voted with their feet, won't take the jobs with the risk involved for the money offered, and the company had no choice other than to recruit, train, and place people who were not experienced professionals and who did not understand the risk-benefit ratio on the payroll.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
magician
07-13-2007, 03:39
I think that most of the pros there voted with their feet, won't take the jobs with the risk involved for the money offered, and the company had no choice other than to recruit, train, and place people who were not experienced professionals and who did not understand the risk-benefit ratio on the payroll.
I think that this was actually an industry-wide phenomenon. The USG government felt that it needed contractors to take care of the deployed force, and the deployed force was stretched thin. The US Army unit in charge of security at BIAP when I was there, for example, was an ADA unit. Obviously, there was no air threat in Iraq. The unit had borrowed Bradleys on the perimeter checkpoints.
Likewise, government contractors. My first firm won its contracts by attesting that it could get boots on the ground within two weeks, and it also bid well below other, more established firms with credible track records.
In order to make money, and to keep the contract alive and under budget, something had to give. My first firm offered low salaries. Since guys with legitimate resumes and verifiable employment histories were garnering much higher pay at that time, the posers came out of the woodwork, and with no requirement to verify credentials, they were employed by my first firm in droves.
I personally worked with guys who were "snipers in Central America," and guys who were "Force Recon." The funny thing was, when a couple genuine FR guys came aboard, they had never heard of the charlatans. The company did not care. It was hiring guys to stand post at a perimeter checkpoint in high temperatures, and charlatans were perfect for the job, because they could wear their knives upside down and strut around carrying guns and get paid more than they were making in the US as mall security.
We have all seen guys who were fired from legit jobs given a new lease on life in the sandbox. We have all seen guys who never heard a shot fired in anger while on active duty running the roads in Iraq, protecting "dignitaries." And yes, there were mistakes made, and atrocities occured, and were never investigated, and no one was ever prosecuted, because there was no law in Iraq at that time, no one had jurisdiction, and all that mattered was that boots were on the ground, people were playing their roles, so that the contract would be paid.
And so it went.
Here we are, years later, and some of these charlatans are still active. Some of them have risen in the ranks, and I personally just detected one who worked on an SOF MTT out of the Embassy in Hungary under fraudulent pretenses, and who is working now in Iraq writing INTSUMs for general officers, who had applied to be a program manager for another firm. Well, we caught him. He is supposed to be leaving Iraq soon, allegedly to go get a certified copy of his DD214. He is not expected to return. But the money is too good. He will try again, elsewhere.
Without sanctions against employers who hire and pimp fraudulent contractors to the US government, the problem will not go away. In the same way that firms that hire illegal aliens in the USA need to be prosecuted into extinction, so do firms that hire fakes to support the US government in the war on terror.
And those firms that cut too many corners in a bid to "get paid," betting with the lives of their contractors, have to be held accountable when they lose their bets, and their contractors die needlessly.
And that is the case, as I see it, with Blackwater.
They bet, they lost, good men died, now Blackwater has to pay.
It is high time that genuine government oversight is implemented over the entire industry.
Anyone ever heard about Greystone?
http://www.greystone-ltd.com/
It is BW's company that hires TCN's. I would not be surprised if security contracting firms are lobbying hard to get the DOS and DOD to accept TCN's to work more security contracts.
A book which I think gives a good snapshot of the behind the scenes of security contracting. Licensed to Kill:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/1400097827/sr=1-2/qid=1184324945/ref=dp_proddesc_0/105-0392262-3862024?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1184324945&sr=1-2
If big business can get the President of the United States to support amnesty for criminals - illegal immigration/subisidized labor/screwing over blue collar americans, I am certain big business will get the US Gov't to support a large security firm. Especially when there could be a nice job in a rural setting on the east coast after one retires from Federal Service. I tell people that it does not matter who the next President will be as far as Iraq is concerned, Americans will be fighting there for a very long time. There is too much money to be made there for this to stop anytime soon, an endless supply of idealogical combatants. Just as there is no end in sight to illegal immigration, there is no end in sight to Iraq, because business and in turn Government are profiting from the cash cows of illegal immigration and "The War on Terror." Other Soldiers are telling me I am cynical, or conspiracy minded. But if you get a glimpse of the money, you have a hard time seeing things from a patriotic or a God and Country point of view. I am not saying there is no legitimate reason to fight the war, I am saying that I cant help feeling that the legitimate reasons provide a foundation for these unsavory Business/Government relationships.
What is the answer? To have a Ronald Reagan size US Army, capable of providing all of the security needs that businesses provide.
One more thing, after seeing what the US Gov't can afford to pay contractors, I think that the military is grossly underpaid, and a heck of a bargain for the US Taxpayer. If you paid rifleman what you pay a guy to do gate guard at Doha, you wouldnt have recruiting problems. There is no reason the Gov't can afford to pay a contracted gate guard a six figure salary but cannot pay an infantryman kicking in doors, setting up ambushes, or rolling down rte Irish the same frigging pay.
I don't have any bad feelings toward security contractors, but the pay for them vs. the pay for combat arms Soldiers, should not have huge disparities. People will say they dont want their Soldiers to be mercenaries, as if somehow paying a guy commmensurate with the risks he takes equates being a mercenary. Drape a guy in the flag and have him work for free then! If a salary is paid to the Soldier, it doesnt matter what the rate of pay is if paying a Soldier means making him a mercenary. Pay a Soldier what you pay a contractor, and it would be the contracting firms having the recruiting problems rather than the Army. We would all be saying things like, "That broken vertebrea? Oh, doc, thats just a scratch, I am good to go." A rifleman is worth five tax free Benjamins a day, which isn't the highest contractor salary in the box. That salary seems high, but it's infentessimal to the gov't, and only seems high to those of us making much less money, while other contractors would scoff at it.
82ndtrooper
07-13-2007, 10:11
I have never worked for BW, but have lived & worked with them in Iraq over the last 3 years. You will find some great, squared away guys and you will also find some true s$%^bag, non-tactical, pretty-boy, drunken, un-professional oxygen theives.
At one time there were many, older SEAL type guys running the show.As they got bigger, I've seen more and more.....shall we say less qualified people. I'm not saying "less -qualified" because they are not SEALs, but folks that display poor judgement, lack of SA, ego and problems with alcohol. There is often a certain arrogence about them because they are "Blackwater". IE because they are BW, they are better than "Big Army", other IC's doing security work and they far more HSLD.....than they actually are. I think allot of this has resulted in BW as a company be held low regard by the more experianced folks in the security business. Personnally I do not want to work for them.
I can't comment on Eric Prince or how coporate operates as I have no experiance with them. So I will not repeat rumors. Every outfit has its 10% that are turds....unfortunately BW has higher percentage.
Collectively I believe your post simply represents what could have been easily predicted for Black Water and other military contractors.
I attended two tactical pistol courses in 2003, T-1 and T2. At that time the instuctors were either former SEAL operators and a few SF Soldiers. The instuction was top notch and fast paced and required the students to reach beyond what their normal comfort zones were. Some students found themselves dehydrated from the tempo of the course. At that time I would have recommended BW to just about anyone wanting to take their pistol skills to another tactical level. At that time there were only a handful of civi's like myself and mostly law enforcement officers seeking higher instruction.
Even then, 2003, if you had an honorable discharge, combat arms MOS, and could pass a physical they were willing to grant you the opportunity to apply for their "Black Water Training Course" As The Reaper mentioned, the pay for the course was $14,000, 8 weeks, and could be offset with your pay if you signed a contract for a 6 month deployment. :rolleyes: It was obvious that the talent needed for true professionals trained in diplomatic security was drying up even then. I couldn't imagine someone like myself, a civi just looking to become more proficient with a pistol, could hardly understand the nature of which this type of contract involved.
One our own local law enforcement officers, a butch female, over weight, with absolutley no understanding of even a simple AR15 was granted a contract. She did not finish the course due to her obvious lack of skills. Another non military candidate from our Sherrifs department also applied and was granted a contract. He is the only person who actually has admitted in his own words "I had not idea what I was doing and I bit off more than I could chew"
Seems to me, the well is dry and now the food source is down to insects.
Smokin Joe
07-13-2007, 13:21
Anyone ever heard about Greystone?
http://www.greystone-ltd.com/
Nice logo. :rolleyes:
Bing West's book, No True Glory, talked about how the murder of the 4 BW contractors was a catalyst that forced the administration into a decision to go into Fallujah in force, against what the USMC was looking to do (A COIN approach rather than the conventional clear the town block by block method).
I think Blackwater is not only negligent from the information presented, to their own, but to the country as well. It was their poor management and planning that resulted in these deaths. The images and resulting chain of decisions based upon that have had reprecussions far beyond that singular event. Responsible murderers should be (and were) held accountable, but our strategy, as a result event was reactionary. At first to look strong we smashed in, then, with the media storm of and fear of the public image of the conventional operation we pulled back. Either way, WE looked weak in the end. First Americans got killed, then we moved in, after which we (decision makers) blinked and pulled back. The price as usual is paid by the boots on the ground for all indecisiveness.
An event beyond the control of our government on foreign soil set a chain reaction off - it all started with Black Water not taking care of its own. Would the fight in Fallujah happened regardless? Maybe - but our commanders would have had the upper hand in choosing the time, rather than the murder images sending shockwaves and them having to react to it.
Even then, 2003, if you had an honorable discharge, combat arms MOS, and could pass a physical they were willing to grant you the opportunity to apply for their "Black Water Training Course" As The Reaper mentioned, the pay for the course was $14,000, 8 weeks, and could be offset with your pay if you signed a contract for a 6 month deployment. :rolleyes: It was obvious that the talent needed for true professionals trained in diplomatic security was drying up even then.
For the WPPS gig you dont even need to attend that paid course. With the quals you posted above you could apply and likely land a contract, the only course you would attend is the Department of State WPPS qualification course. You dont have to pay for it either, they would pay you for training and a few weeks later you could be working in Iraq, provided your clearance goes through. You could pass the course, but not be able to land a clearance and they would probably offer you a spot on another contract that doesnt require one.
82ndtrooper
07-13-2007, 18:12
For the WPPS gig you dont even need to attend that paid course. With the quals you posted above you could apply and likely land a contract, the only course you would attend is the Department of State WPPS qualification course. You dont have to pay for it either, they would pay you for training and a few weeks later you could be working in Iraq, provided your clearance goes through. You could pass the course, but not be able to land a clearance and they would probably offer you a spot on another contract that doesnt require one.
IIRC they desired anyone that was at least prior "Airborne", at a minimum for the WPPS contracts. The secret clearance was also mentioned, but most that attended the course at the very least would have been eligible for a clearance, assuming that your credit rating wasn't a 100. Even then I believe they would have waved that, based on how desperate they seemed at the time. They also didn't want any DUI's on anyones record. I believe, they would wave that also, since most of the upper staff seemed to be heavy drinkers. Just my opinion.
IIRC they desired anyone that was at least prior "Airborne", at a minimum for the WPPS contracts. The secret clearance was also mentioned, but most that attended the course at the very least would have been eligible for a clearance, assuming that your credit rating wasn't a 100. Even then I believe they would have waved that, based on how desperate they seemed at the time. They also didn't want any DUI's on anyones record. I believe, they would wave that also, since most of the upper staff seemed to be heavy drinkers. Just my opinion.
No Airborne requirement, the requirements are actually not Blackwater's, they are the clients which of course in this case is DOS. I was 11B10, nothing special with just under a year PSD experience in Iraq and they offered me a slot. I pulled a hamstring on the PT Test run and missed my time by 13 seconds, otherwise I probably would have been on this contract. I met another guy there who had a hamstring injury and they let him try again once it healed, I lost interest and never re-applied. I know at least one person that passed the course and was working in Iraq with no LEO or Mil experience.
ktek01 is correct, there is no Abn req or for that fact mil experiance at all for WPPS. Though most do, there are many former LEOs, some SWAT guys, some Deputy Sheriffs from the middle of nowhere to drug task force....all types.
There are many former LEO's with NO mil experiance at all doing that mission. Some are very good folks, others wind up being in way over their head. The anology that I use to illiustrate the problem is a LEO in the states always has backup,(granted he may be a solitary officer stopping a group of scumbags on the highway, at least he can call for backup) or say SWAT team is hitting a meth lab or hostage sit for example. The SWAT team always outnumbers the bad guys, has fire supuorority and while the bad guys may hate the cops....they often fear the police as well. Hell there are some former "mall ninjas" getting jobs.
In Iraq doing PSD you can easliy wind up being outnumbered, outgunned by muji who hate you and do NOT fear you. We made a wrong turn one day in Sadar City one day...it was not a good day. Some LEO's cannot make that mental switch.
Also their are many who are hired for WPPS who want to do 1 tour, go home, pay the house off and go do something else. So you loose whatever training and experiance they have gained.
When I try to hire someone or review resumes, I look for combat arms experiance, prefer in-theatre experiance, maturity, and a word of mouth recommandition from someone I know. BW (and others) fell into the problem of getting all these contracts, not having the bodies to fill them. So the floodgates opened, often sh^&bags would bring in their s(*&bag buddies and its a endless cycle unless their is strong leadership that is not afraid to cut that out.
I could go on, but I need to go do some PT.
Fiercely Loyal
07-14-2007, 08:50
After reading the book License to Kill, and reviewing this thread, I have the feeling BW is destined to be the next Executive Outcomes/Sandline fiasco. Mr. Prince will end up in some third world jail eventually. The question is how many more men will die for this man.
Warrior4Life
07-14-2007, 10:48
and to think I was actually going to do this....
Never mind... my footing isn't good on this one.