View Full Version : A better understanding of SF.
jjames83
07-08-2007, 11:39
After reading a recent thread post entitled "America's Warrior Sprirt is Fading", i was inclined to make a retort on behalf of myself and other members of my generation. My initial reaction was "hold on a minute, I aspire to be a SF soldier, I work hard, I have worked for everything I have despite nothing ever comming easy for me. I wan't to fight for my country. What are they talking about?"
Thankfully I didn't make that post. The more I read this forum and others like it, the more I began to realize the truth. No civilian really knows what it means to be a Warrior let alone a SF Soldier. I also find myself struggling to understand all soldiers not just SF Soldiers.
My impression is that civilians are viewied with an air of disdain and contempt. I get the feeling that in eyes of most Soldiers, we must tread lightly because we do not, and cannot understand what it means to be a Soldier. We have not been sharpened by combat, essentially we don't speak the same language and until I receive this baptism by fire, we will never speak the same language.
I would like to know what other readers think. Is this how you feel, or am I totally off?
I am trying to understand the SF mindset because SF is a goal of mine.
My impression is that civilians are viewied with an air of disdain and contempt. I get the feeling that in eyes of most Soldiers, we must tread lightly because we do not, and cannot understand what it means to be a Soldier. We have not been sharpened by combat, essentially we don't speak the same language and until I receive this baptism by fire, we will never speak the same language.
Civilians, as a whole, are not viewed with disdain, it goes on a case by case basis. (Hell, most Civilians don't like each other.) You are right, none Veterans do not and cannot understand what it means to be a Soldier until they have been one.
The Reaper
07-08-2007, 12:40
None of us really know what it means to be Warriors let alone SF Soldiers.
I think that you are wrong, and some of us do, all too well.
My impression is that civilians are viewied with an air of disdain and contempt.
I think that you are missing the entire point. Review the sheepdog analogy. Does the sheepdog have disdain and contempt for his flock?
The point is, when the sheep begin to berate, bleat at, and spit upon the sheepdog, and tell the sheepdog how to do his job, does the sheepdog wish to continue to risk his life and liberty for the sheep?
Civilian control of the military is well-established in this country, and is one of the core concepts of a free and democratic society.
At the same time, when a very few are being asked to give up their lives and subject themselves to the control of our leadership, is it unreasonable to ask that the civilian leadership be marginally competent and supportive?
When people start to pick at every small mistake, armchair quarterback every split second life or death decison in detail, bemoan the war as lost, call us baby killers and murderers, and to ignore huge successes, why would the volunteer warrior wish to continue to subject himself to this scrutiny and abuse?
TR
jjames83
07-08-2007, 12:55
I apologize, I don't think I was clear. I should have written civilians don't understand what it's like to be warriors and SF soldiers.
I'll edit.
Fiercely Loyal
07-26-2007, 05:52
When people start to pick at every small mistake, armchair quarterback every split second life or death decison in detail, bemoan the war as lost, call us baby killers and murderers, and to ignore huge successes, why would the volunteer warrior wish to continue to subject himself to this scrutiny and abuse?
Sir this may sound idealistic but a sense of duty to country. Even with today’s political climate, I still feel a sense of duty to our country to do what those find unpopular or dangerous. Is this something that you QPs feel most of the time? After various other conflicts that made the military unpopular were there folks who stayed in because they still felt obligated to protect their country?
Warpath66
01-29-2011, 18:49
"a soldier accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The civilian does not." - Starship Troopers, Robert A. Heinlein
TR is correct, but may I add.
The sheepdog does not work for the sheep. He works for the Sheppard who called him, who trained him, and he is accountable only to the sheppard.
My country called me, my country trained me, my country "oath" holds me accountable.
I'm not afraid of biting the wolf or taking him down, "hand to gland", I will choke him out or drive a blade through him, I will kill.
But I'm also known for occasionally biting a lamb when they are out of order, without fear of my sheppard in correcting me. The sheppard has given me a range of motion, he is in control and has defended me when the sheep complain.
My name is Wet Dog, and I approved this message.
TR's post with Wet_Dog's addendum was beautiful man, profoundly natural.
...thats gotta be a 2011 quote of the year!
:cool:
What is important to understand is the high calibur and type of individual that comprise SF forces. Many of them, even within the enlisted ranks, have advanced college degrees, are over achievers, perfectionists, natural leaders (and at times natural followers), have the ability to learn and understand multiple languages and are generally of what is classified as Type A personality.
The type of individual that comes to SF is already a breed apart from the ordinary individual, and their training in my opinion, enhances and builds on that. Their motivation and will is innate.
There are a finite number of ways to remove an individual from this planet, there are an infinite number of ways to make this planet a better place. Politics and the media personification (whether through movies, tv shows, AP news articles, embedded wannabes, TLC/Discovery shows, or video games created ala Wolfenstein) of SF's fail to include either of those aspects in their representation of SF forces.
The knowledge they embody, and are willing to impart in leading the way, for me anyways, goes well beyond the call to duty, hence the term "above and beyond."
I would never claim to understand a warrior, as the path each warrior takes, or each team takes in responsibility (AOR) is ever changing, and ever demanding. Understanding the attributes that comprise those that lead the way, however, I think is crucial!
As far as TRs question: why would the volunteer warrior wish to continue to subject himself to this scrutiny and abuse?
I do not have an exact answer, I would be more concerned with surounding myself with those that continue to serve in SF (if I had a choice on the battlefield), and be relieved with the fact in knowing that those who have retired, or have decided to pursue a different path are out here among us (and perhaps more accesible, and just as equally desired as my kind of company I would associate with), and that their knowledge, skill set and expertise is not wasted here in the civilian world, but their forging the way continues in pursuit of their ideals of excellence, commitment, integrity and so on.
greenberetTFS
01-31-2011, 08:13
I think that you are wrong, and some of us do, all too well.
I think that you are missing the entire point. Review the sheepdog analogy. Does the sheepdog have disdain and contempt for his flock?
The point is, when the sheep begin to berate, bleat at, and spit upon the sheepdog, and tell the sheepdog how to do his job, does the sheepdog wish to continue to risk his life and liberty for the sheep?
Civilian control of the military is well-established in this country, and is one of the core concepts of a free and democratic society.
At the same time, when a very few are being asked to give up their lives and subject themselves to the control of our leadership, is it unreasonable to ask that the civilian leadership be marginally competent and supportive?
When people start to pick at every small mistake, armchair quarterback every split second life or death decison in detail, bemoan the war as lost, call us baby killers and murderers, and to ignore huge successes, why would the volunteer warrior wish to continue to subject himself to this scrutiny and abuse?
TR
Excellent point TR..............;)
Big Teddy :munchin
longrange1947
01-31-2011, 12:22
..............................When people start to pick at every small mistake, armchair quarterback every split second life or death decison in detail, bemoan the war as lost, call us baby killers and murderers, and to ignore huge successes, why would the volunteer warrior wish to continue to subject himself to this scrutiny and abuse?
TR
Because we are professionals and understand that idiots are idiots, bigots are bigots, and liberals are both.
Because we are professionals and understand that idiots are idiots, bigots are bigots, and liberals are both.
Posted this just so that the above comment could be enjoyed at least twice.
Dozer523
01-31-2011, 13:56
What is important What is important to understand is the high calibur and type of individual that comprise SF forces. Many of them, even within the enlisted ranks, have advanced college degrees, are over achievers, perfectionists, natural leaders (and at times natural followers),have the ability to learn and understand multiple languages and are generally of what is classified as Type A personality. . . . The type of individual that comes to SF is already a breed apart from the ordinary individual . . .
Why is this song going through my head? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ux3-a9RE1Q "Beautiful, man.":D
As far as TRs question: Generally speaking, TR's questions are retorical. That was awesome. Do me again.
Maybe I should just learn to go "awwwwww shucks, Ma'am.:rolleyes::D
ZonieDiver
01-31-2011, 14:42
That was awesome. Do me again.
Maybe I should just learn to go "awwwwww shucks, Ma'am.:rolleyes::D
12 men... brave and true!
12 men fight for you.
They bring hope where they are seen.
12 men, invincible, the A-Team!:D
from a civilians stand point. I think in my mind anyways. WHen people like my future ex-wife are talking about this war or that war. HOw soldiers are doing the right or the wrong, blah, blah, blah. There is a part at the beginning of John Wayne's 'Green Berets' movie that has always stuck out in my mind, "A soldier goes where he's told to go and fights whoever he's told to fight.", that a lot of people miss. ONce you sign your name on that piece of paper, you take that oath, you are saying you WILL go wherever you are asked to go and perform your duty for your country whatever that may be. As civilians, especially in the United States, the idea of not having a choice in the matter....is well, hard to realize, and to understand. WHile yes, ( and I may be wrong), there are some instances where personal, moral, i.e., religious reasons perhaps may prevent a soldier from doing a certain assignment, for the most part, I think that quote holds true. And well it should. So yeah, I think that some soldiers do have a little bit of disdain for civilians, and why shouldn't they? I think TR brought out some really good examples off why they might get a little pissed off at us civilians, because we don't know, and we don't and can't understand, what there life is like until we have been there, if and when one ever does. What one of us, that has never been in the military, let alone a war, can really and truly understand or even begin to fathom the kinds of choices they have to make on an everyday basis? The decisions these gentlemen make, and many other soldiers, isn't what to wear to work, or what soda pop they are going to buy on the way, or what to get for dinner that night, it's who do I have to send into harms way, that might not ever come home. That's a question that is hard to grasp for someone that hasn't been there. I know, because I haven't been there. Really when everyday is a life or death decision, as civilians, we should just say 'Thank you, god bless you for what you do, and may you come home safe every day, or night." Then take TR's advice, and "READ MORE AND POST LESS!" Cause as civilians we DON'T HAVE A FREAKING CLUE! Really. So...time to read more and post less.
Dozer523
09-08-2011, 22:06
Gawd I love this thread.
was it good for you too?
TOMAHAWK9521
09-08-2011, 22:19
TR is correct, but may I add.
The sheepdog does not work for the sheep. He works for the Sheppard who called him, who trained him, and he is accountable only to the sheppard.
My country called me, my country trained me, my country "oath" holds me accountable.
I'm not afraid of biting the wolf or taking him down, "hand to gland", I will choke him out or drive a blade through him, I will kill.
But I'm also known for occasionally biting a lamb when they are out of order, without fear of my sheppard in correcting me. The sheppard has given me a range of motion, he is in control and has defended me when the sheep complain.
My name is Wet Dog, and I approved this message.
"This has been a paid advertisement for the 'Wet Dog For A New Pack' campaign. All commemorative 'Wet Dog' merchandise, to include: dog bowls, dog collars and canine menus; as well as all leash commands, herding techniques, retrieving commands, hunting TTPs, litter training tips, puppy-rearing plans, sheep-biting guides, wolf-slaughtering programs, chicken-stealing ideas, cat-harassment enterprises, and rare mineral digging rights, are the sole proprietary ownership of Wet Dog and may not be copied, scanned, recorded, photographed, sketched, memorized, considered, thought about, or even envisioned, without the express consent of Wet Dog or the 'Wet Dog For A New Pack' campaign committee."
"All the poop and piddle stains and destroyed property are some other dog's"
Vote: WET DOG!! :D
"This has been a paid advertisement for the 'Wet Dog For A New Pack' campaign. All commemorative 'Wet Dog' merchandise, to include: dog bowls, dog collars and canine menus; as well as all leash commands, herding techniques, retrieving commands, hunting TTPs, litter training tips, puppy-rearing plans, sheep-biting guides, wolf-slaughtering programs, chicken-stealing ideas, cat-harassment enterprises, and rare mineral digging rights, are the sole proprietary ownership of Wet Dog and may not be copied, scanned, recorded, photographed, sketched, memorized, considered, thought about, or even envisioned, without the express consent of Wet Dog or the 'Wet Dog For A New Pack' campaign committee."
"All the poop and piddle stains and destroyed property are some other dog's"
Vote: WET DOG!! :D
You're killing me brother, but maybe we should have someone here at PS.com start with the art work, (t-shirts, dog bowls, window stickers, etc.).
No, really, I'm just kidding.....:)
greenberetTFS
09-09-2011, 15:48
"This has been a paid advertisement for the 'Wet Dog For A New Pack' campaign. All commemorative 'Wet Dog' merchandise, to include: dog bowls, dog collars and canine menus; as well as all leash commands, herding techniques, retrieving commands, hunting TTPs, litter training tips, puppy-rearing plans, sheep-biting guides, wolf-slaughtering programs, chicken-stealing ideas, cat-harassment enterprises, and rare mineral digging rights, are the sole proprietary ownership of Wet Dog and may not be copied, scanned, recorded, photographed, sketched, memorized, considered, thought about, or even envisioned, without the express consent of Wet Dog or the 'Wet Dog For A New Pack' campaign committee."
"All the poop and piddle stains and destroyed property are some other dog's"
Vote: WET DOG!! :D
This post is outstanding........ :lifter Wet Dog for POTUS in 2012..........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
This post is outstanding........ :lifter Wet Dog for POTUS in 2012..........;)
Big Teddy :munchin
No. According to the last SITREP, too many skeletons in closet that are kicking, some still wearing duct tape. But an interesting idea, the non-professional politician. We've all seen the results of the average guy who runs, (i.e., Congressmen, Senators, Govenors). Some have been retired doctors, working actors, comedians, pro-wrestlers. A new generation of elected officials are now retired soldiers, sailors, and airmen, and at every turn, they are beaten down. It's a tough environment, those who have done well, seemed to have been in a perfect storm to just have things go well. Well, its been awhile since anything has just gone well, and it will be awhile before they do. What we need, and appears to be coming our way, are the young guns politicos turning and burning the late night candle to define the problem and direct staffers to execute.
I like what I see in some of the new junior politicians, time will tell how they truely perform, and under what conditions we weigh in on their careers.
I think Richard would make a good POTUS, TR as V. President, but god help our enemies if Team Sergeant was Sec of Defense.
Be we have other threads for political discussions.
greenberetTFS
09-10-2011, 06:01
Gawd I love this thread.
was it good for you too?
Great to see your back in stride,Dusty's been carrying your load while you've been training young tigers for GB pre Q course training .............;):D;)
Big Teddy :munchin
tom kelly
09-10-2011, 13:29
People do things for two reasons, A good reason and the real reason!
Special Forces does things for the RIGHT reason...Regard's, tom kelly
greenberetTFS
10-15-2011, 15:19
People do things for two reasons, A good reason and the real reason!
Special Forces does things for the RIGHT reason...Regard's, tom kelly
;););)
Big Teddy :munchin
500 Proof
10-10-2012, 12:03
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