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x-factor
07-03-2007, 16:39
Most remember that the Battle of Gettysburg ended on July 4, 1776, but few know that another historic battle was fought on July 4, 1187.

On that day, the Crusader army of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was crushed by Saladin at the Horns of Hattin. This opened up the way for the Muslim reconquest of Jerusalem. The Crusader states would never fully recover from the defeat and were eventually destroyed entirely. As such, Hattin was a critical turning point in history...perhaps even moreso than the better remembered Gettysburg.

[The following is excerpted from a larger paper of mine on Crusade history and how it influences jihadist views today.]

Saladin was, by all accounts, committed to jihad (as he defined it, meaning the destruction of the Crusader states and reconquest of the Holy Land, but not the expulsion/conversion/killing of all Christians nor the denial of Christian pilgrims to Jerusalem), but he was also a pragmatist and a moralist. He fought a give-and-take campaign with the young leper-king Baldwin IV before eventually reaching a détente that left the Crusaders in control of Jerusalem. Baldwin's death in 1184 offered Saladin an opportunity to make a decisive attack, but instead he agreed to a four-year truce knowing that eventually he would be given a more honorable proximate cause to make war.

Saladin’s sense of chivalry was broad and generous but it also had an edge to it. Insults to Islam and dishonorable behavior were dealt with severely. One Crusader more than any other drew Saladin’s ire: Reynald of Chatillon. Reynald was a zealot, sadist, and sociopath with no thoughts of coexistence. He had been in the Middle East since 1147 and early on made himself an enemy of the Byzantines by ravaging Cyprus and gruesomely torturing the Orthodox Christian clergy in 1156. In 1181, in violation of the treaty and the general sense of Crusader-Muslim détente, he attacked a Syrian caravan headed to Mecca, but his ultimate offense came two years later. Setting out from the port of Eilat he sailed down the Arabian coast and raided the cities of Yanbuh (the port servicing Medina) and Rabigh, not far from Mecca. Merchant ships were captured and one shipload of pilgrims bound for Jeddah was sunk and a land caravan was raided on Arabian soil. The Egyptian navy finally caught up with the Crusaders-turned-pirates and, although Reynald managed to escape, almost all his men were captured and some had the dubious distinction of being beheaded in the courtyard of the Grand Mosque in Mecca. When reports arrived that Reynald had taunted Muslim prisoners, saying “Call on your Mahomet to save you,” Saladin reportedly swore to kill him with his own hands.

Reynald became and remains the ultimate “poster boy” for Crusader crimes against Islam and his role as the quintessential villain makes Saladin’s role as the hero all the more appealing to Muslims. One might say that Reynald was the Zarqawi of his time: a criminal-zealot who proved impossible for even his own side to fully control and who ultimately met a bloody end. Reynald’s attack on the Arabian peninsula -- on the Hijaz itself -- was a new low for the Crusaders and so he was the trigger for Saladin’s final assault on the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Showing operational acumen to match his political skill, Saladin systematically planned to force a decisive battle and break the army of Jerusalem. To set the trap, he occupied Tiberias in the County of Tripoli, despite the fact that the Count was one of the most détente-oriented Crusader leaders (to the point that he was accused of treason by Crusader extremists like Reynald). The Crusader army assembled at Sephoria, on lush ground 20 miles from Tiberias. The Count of Tripoli himself argued for patience rather than marching to combat across the hot, arid land, but Saladin had correctly judged his adversary and King Guy sided with more aggressive factions in the war council. In the end, the Crusader army marched out to attack on the advice of the Templar Grandmaster and Reynald, who argued “fire is not daunted by the quantity of wood to burn.”

Had it been purely a matter of numbers as Reynald’s logic asserted, the Crusaders might have won the Battle of Hattin. Crusader quality had overwhelmed Muslim quantity in major battles before, but Saladin’s trap was about more than numbers. He positioned his forces between the Crusader army and Lake Tiberias (also known as the Sea of Galilee or Lake Galilee), the only available source of water, and kept the pressure on the advancing Crusaders with constant harassment by mounted archers. When the Crusaders arrived many were already dehydrated and suffering from heat stroke, in some cases literally cooking in their chain mail. Most of the Crusader barons wanted to fight through to the water immediately, but King Guy ordered the army to make camp. Saladin tightened the screw by firing the dry brush surrounding the Crusader camp. This added to the already oppressive heat and the smoke served a dual purpose: harassing the lungs of the Crusaders and masking the movement of Muslim army. When dawn broke, the Crusaders were surrounded, choking on the smoke, and had been nearly 24 hours in harsh heat without water. Those who ran for water were cut down, those who stayed to fight were slowly decimated.

To this day Hattin is remembered by Muslims as a crowning moment for Islamic civilization. It is used as an honorific for Muslim military units, including one of the first three brigades of the Palestine Liberation Army, and former Syrian president Hafez Assad had a painting of the battle hanging in his office; reportedly, he would present the painting to Western visitors and tell them that one day a new Saladin would come.

Hattin serves as more than a cultural victory. It played and still plays a major part in defining the jihadist style of war. Hattin was not won by a stunning cavalry charge (bold maneuver) or a massive war machine (technology), but rather by a combination of cunning and patience: entrapping and grinding down an overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive enemy. It is the same general approach that jihadist forces have favored in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Lebanon, and Iraq.

Saladin’s patience and planning was rewarded not only with victory at Hattin, but also with a more personal measure of satisfaction. In what is perhaps his most famous anecdote, Saladin had King Guy and Reynald, now prisoners, brought before him. Imad al-Din al-Asfahani, one of Saladin’s advisors who was present at the time, recorded what transpired:

Salah al-Din invited the king to sit beside him and when [Reynald] entered in his turn, he seated him next to his king and reminded him of his misdeeds: ‘How many times have you sworn an oath and then violated it? How many times have you signed agreements that you have never respected?’ [Reynald] answered through an interpreter: ‘Kings have always acted thus. I did nothing more.’ During this time, Guy was gasping with thirst, his head dangling as though he were drunk, his face betraying great fright. Salah al-Din spoke reassuring words to him, had cold water brought, and offered it to him. The king drank, then handed what remained to [Reynald], who slaked his thirst in turn. The sultan then said to Guy: ‘You did not ask my permission before giving him water I am therefore not obliged to grant him mercy [according to Muslim traditions of hospitality].’

After pronouncing these words, the sultan smiled, mounted his horse, and rode off, leaving his captives in terror. He supervised the return of the troops, then came back to his tent. He ordered [Reynald] brought there, advanced towards him, sword in hand, and struck him between the neck and shoulder-blade. When [Reynald] fell, he cut off his head and dragged the body by its feet to the king, who began to tremble. See him thus upset, the sultan said to him in a reassuring tone: ‘This man was killed only because of his maleficence and his perfidy.’

What is not often added to that story is that, although Saladin ransomed King Guy and the secular knights, he also had beheaded all the members of the monastic-military orders captured at Hattin. Imad ad-Din tells the story in no uncertain terms:

Two days after the victory, the Sultan sought out the Templars and Hospitallers who had been captured and said: ‘I shall purify the land of these two impure races.’ He assigned fifty dinar to every man who had taken one of them prisoner, and immediately the army brought forward at least a hundred of them. He ordered that they should be beheaded, choosing to have them dead rather than in prison. With him was a whole band of scholars and Sufis and a certain number of devout men and ascetics; each begged to be allowed to kill one of them, and drew his sword and rolled back his sleeve. Saladin, his face joyful, was sitting on his dais; the unbelievers showed black despair, the troops were drawn up in their ranks, the amirs stood in double file. There were some who slashed and cut cleanly, and were thanked for it; some who refused and failed to act , and were excused; some who made fools of themselves, and others took their places. I saw there the man who laughed scornfully and slaughtered, who spoke and acted; how many promises he fulfilled, how much praise he won, the eternal rewards he secured with the blood he had shed, the pious works added to his account with a neck severed by him! How many blades did he stain with blood for a victory he longed for, how many ills did he cure by the ills he brought upon a Templar, how much strength did he give to the leaders whom he supported, how many banners did he unfurl against disaster that retreated! I saw how he killed unbelief to give life to Islam, and destroyed polytheism to build monotheism, and drove decisions through to their conclusion to satisfy the community of the faithful, and cut down enemies in the defence of friends!

Sdiver
07-03-2007, 16:44
Most remember that the Battle of Gettysburg ended on July 4, 1776

It Did !!!!! :eek: :eek:

Oh..Oh...Oh...let me guess.....and the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor too. ;) :D

x-factor
07-03-2007, 16:46
I believe it was P-E-A-R-L Harbor that they bombed. Dirty Nazis. ;)

The Reaper
07-03-2007, 17:02
Most remember that the Battle of Gettysburg ended on July 4, 1776

Try again, Buckwheat.

Combat at Gettysburg effectively ended with Picket's assault against the Federal center at mid-day on 3 July, 1863. There was no further offensive action at Gettysburg.

The evening of 4 July found the Confederate Army in retreat, with trains of wounded stretching for 17 miles. Action was limited to rear guard skirmishing by cavalry units on the 5th.

Good story about the Crusaders though. Thanks!

TR

Publius
07-03-2007, 17:12
If you want to go to major Civil War victories on July 4th, you could just say that Grant's siege of Vicksburg ended on July 4th, 1863, splitting the Confederacy in two. As TR said, Gettysburg was essentially over after Longstreet's Assault was crushed.

Team Sergeant
07-03-2007, 17:37
Most remember that the Battle of Gettysburg ended on July 4, 1776, but few know that another historic battle was fought on July 4, 1187.

Hattin serves as more than a cultural victory. It played and still plays a major part in defining the jihadist style of war. Hattin was not won by a stunning cavalry charge (bold maneuver) or a massive war machine (technology), but rather by a combination of cunning and patience: entrapping and grinding down an overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive enemy. It is the same general approach that jihadist forces have favored in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Lebanon, and Iraq.

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x-factor,

You sure are full of yourself. "cunning and patience" I'll tell you this once don't use this board and its members as a sounding board for your papers. (And you consult for the US military?)

Listen up jack, little has changed since 1187 in the muslim way of thinking, they're morons, stupid yet determined, no leadership, they all follow one battle cry, islam. And when they're not fighting with someone else they're fighting each other.

Another thing little buddy, we're not yet overextended, we still get mail on the battlefield everyday, hamburgers hotdogs, and cold ice-cream, food, fuel, dancing girls, DVD's, IPODS etc etc etc what the hell leads you to believe we're over extended.

Overconfident, tell it to the friggin taliban, if you can find the cowards hiding among the sheep.

When you get your ass beat so bad that it takes a few years to build back up your forces and in the mean time you kill a few of your enemy using bombs while your enemy kill tens of thousands, I don't call that cunning jack, I call it an insurgency, I call it run and hide so the overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive enemy doesn't catch your spineless and cowering jihadist ass and send it to allah.


x-factor,

Before you post another paper send it to the Reaper or one of the other admins to read. We're not going to continue to be your sounding board for this sort of CRAP.
Team Sergeant

The Reaper
07-03-2007, 17:58
If you want to go to major Civil War victories on July 4th, you could just say that Grant's siege of Vicksburg ended on July 4th, 1863, splitting the Confederacy in two. As TR said, Gettysburg was essentially over after Longstreet's Assault was crushed.

And they did not officially celebrate Independence Day in Vicksburg for 100 years after that.

TR

x-factor
07-03-2007, 18:12
TR - Correct me if I'm wrong but the Confederate withdrawal didn't begin until the 4th. Wouldn't that mean the battle didn't really end until that morning? I'm definitely not the Civil War historian you are. In anycase, its technicalities.

TS - First, Saldin did in fact whip the Crusaders through cunning and patience...at least compared to the fool-hardy commanders above. And the Crusader states were in fact overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive.

Second, it may not come accross from this excerpt, but the line about "cunning and patience" refers more to how the jihadists view themselves. In the same sense, the reference to modern events in Iraq has to do with how the jihadists think about their own strategy. They view us as overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive. You can tell that much from any Bin Laden statement. Just as you say, "little has changed" in their way of thinking.

Read it again, I make no commentary on our successes or failures in Iraq. I'm simply saying that they've formed their current strategy based on historic example.

Third, if I wanted the board's opinion on the paper, I would have done just what you said. I posted this excerpt because I thought it was an entertaining historical note for the 4th of July. Nothing more.

The Reaper
07-03-2007, 18:23
The dates for the Battle of Gettysburg are officially listed as 1-3 July, 1863.

TR

Peregrino
07-03-2007, 20:00
X-factor - At least your scholarship for Hattin is acceptable. (Even if the related tidbit is grossly abbreviated. :p) I was extremely annoyed at Hollywierd's "Kingdom of Heaven" abortion - the true history is fascinating enough without market hype/distortion. Unfortunately (for you) I'm in complete agreement with TS when he challenges your conclusions. Aside from the "overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive" comment and the implication that it applies to our forces today(talk about waving the red flag in front of a bull), your assertion that the tactics used were/are the same general approach that jihadist forces have favored in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Lebanon, and Iraq gives them too much credit and Saladin too little. It's not "grand strategy". Insurgents have no choice but to avoid decisive battles. To do otherwise invites wholesale slaughter - as we continue to prove every time we create more "martyrs". Medieval history is an interest of mine and I'm fairly well read on the Crusades. The Crusaders were defeated because they deserved it; they were stupid and Saladin wasn't, i.e. Darwin works. Saladin used tried and proven principles of war that military professionals have know and studied at least since Sun Tzu. (I'm aware of Muslim hit & run tactics during the Crusades - most military scholars attribute them to the traditional/tribal nature of Arab warfare vs. an inovative tactic - the "parthian shot" is ancient.) Modern Islamists claiming to be "following in the footsteps of Saladin" (Salah al-Din Yusuf Ibn Ayyub - FWIW) are clueless (and getting their asses handed to them too :D). They have perverted his accomplishments and intentions/motivations in their attempt to foster legitimacy and unite Moslems to their cause. My .02 - Peregrino

Team Sergeant
07-03-2007, 20:18
TR - Correct me if I'm wrong but the Confederate withdrawal didn't begin until the 4th. Wouldn't that mean the battle didn't really end until that morning? I'm definitely not the Civil War historian you are. In anycase, its technicalities.

TS - First, Saldin did in fact whip the Crusaders through cunning and patience...at least compared to the fool-hardy commanders above. And the Crusader states were in fact overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive.

Second, it may not come accross from this excerpt, but the line about "cunning and patience" refers more to how the jihadists view themselves. In the same sense, the reference to modern events in Iraq has to do with how the jihadists think about their own strategy. They view us as overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive. You can tell that much from any Bin Laden statement. Just as you say, "little has changed" in their way of thinking.

Read it again, I make no commentary on our successes or failures in Iraq. I'm simply saying that they've formed their current strategy based on historic example.

Third, if I wanted the board's opinion on the paper, I would have done just what you said. I posted this excerpt because I thought it was an entertaining historical note for the 4th of July. Nothing more.


Let’s not mince words x. I’m neither a Pvt or a 2Lt reading his first intel document or a paper supporting an intelligence opinion.

Your analogy of how Saladin fought the infidel’s and how the current islamic jihadists are fighting today was summoned up in this sentence; It is the same general approach that jihadist forces have favored in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Lebanon, and Iraq. I have little doubt it was and is your intent to infer that the overextended, overconfident, and overaggressive enemy is in fact the Russians and the Americans. Now please enlighten us as to the “approach” the iranians used against the iraqis in their wars? iraqis approach to the same? Would you not agree that saddam’s war against the iranians was overextended, overconfident and overaggressive??? Was Saladin’s cunning and patience employed by both sides?????????????? (BTW x, I used to speak iranian, I understand more about them and ME ideology than the average Joe. Infer from that what you wish.)

I've also read a few thousand intelligence papers during my career, some were amusing, like the one (top-secret) that stated we (Americans) would lose thousands, maybe ten’s of thousands after we breached saddam’s wall (Desert Storm). Funny that I didn’t read one top-secret paper that said saddam’s sissys would surrender in en masse once we crossed that “line of death”.

I've little tolerance for intel types. Billions of dollars spent (per year) and not one knew about the 9/11 attack. I don’t require history lessons; I need to know what they’re up to now and what they’re planning to do next. And when you figure that out we need to know where a few more of their leaders are so we can arrange the meeting between allah and the terrorist leaders.

Team Sergeant

HOLLiS
07-03-2007, 20:19
X-factor the last contested act was on the 3rd. The Confederated lost the contested field, means a Union win. Gen. Meade did not carry the battle forth on the 4th (sorry for the play on words). Gen. Lee did not seek a further contest of the field on the 4th.

Victory was consider to have gone to who held the contested ground. Such as Antietam, the Union was too bloodied to craw off the field. The South withdrew, meaning it was a Union win, a very shallow win but a very badly needed win for the North.

x-factor
07-04-2007, 21:39
As I said, I excerpted the part about Hattin as historical entertainment for the 4th of July. I think its a fascinating bit of history that most Americans don't know because most Americans don't read medieval history.

I don't think its fair to judge the intent of the paper based on the excerpt. The larger paper is primarily designed to inform influence operations about how the Muslims and especially jihadists perceive things through their own cultural history and prejudices. Their beliefs and actions exist inside this cultural narrative where they are fighting against a "new Crusade" and so they draw parallels accordingly.

Do I think its rational? No. Do I think they misperceive (either intentionally or subconsciously) events to fit this narrative? Yes. I compare the Crusader cannabalism at Marrat to Abu Ghraib too. Does that mean I think they're equivalent crimes? No, of course not. I'm examining the mindset of a specific breed of enemy, not commenting on American policy.

Is this clear from the excerpt? I thought so, but maybe not. If its not then thats my fault for using the excerpt and not prefacing it more thoroughly.

*****

TS - The Iran-Iraq War is outside my line of argument because it was Muslim-vs-Muslim not Muslim-vs-West, so it wasn't viewed through the same cultural narrative. When its Muslim on Muslim, both sides typically resort to just trying to bludgeon each other with pure numbers.

But, as you say, lets not mince words. I'm an intel officer and you asked my opinion (as opposed to my view of the jihadist opinion) so here it is:
- Are we overextended in Iraq and Afghanistan? Yes, but not catastrophically. We are overextended in the sense that we don't have enough resources to carry out all the operations we might like to but not in the sense that we're about to collapse into a rout.
- Are we overconfident in Iraq and Afghanistan? On a tactical level, no. Facts prove we can handily outfight any force the Muslim world can field. On a higher level, yes. It was overconfident to assume we could control Iraq with the number of troops we used.
- Are we overaggressive in Iraq and Afghanistan? On the tactical level, no. I marvel at the discipline of American forces. It is historically unprecedented for an army to be so conscious of collateral damage. On an operational level, no. Sometimes I think we're underaggressive actually. I think we wasted a lot of time waiting for security to just magically bloom on its own in Iraq and in alot of cases we've been purely reactive in our approach to confronting the enemies, but in some ways both those ties back to the overextended question. On a strategic level, maybe. Trying to occupy two countries of this size and scenario with only a 10-division army and minimal international support is ambitious to say the least.

*****

P - As I said above, the paper was primarily designed to inform influence operations not combat operations. Still, I do think there are parallels to be drawn. You're right that the Muslim preference for asymettric tactics (feigned retreat, ambush, raiding, etc) pre-date the Crusades. They pre-date Islam and go back to Turkic and Arab tribal practices. However, I think the Muslim way of war at the operational level takes the counter-Crusade of the 12th century (Zangi-Nurredin-Saladin) as one of its primary influences.

In medieval force-on-force contests the Muslim armies were whipped nearly every time (3 times at Antioch, Jerusalem, Ramlah, Acre, Arsuf, Jaffa, etc etc.) even despite their incredible numerical and logistical advantages. Each time Muslim armies were pasted by smaller, more professional Western manuever forces.

Off the top of my head, the only large scale battles that the Muslims won in the first three Crusades were Damascus and Hattin. Damascus was a battlefield draw (the Crusaders more or less just gave up on the campaign because of command infighting), so the Muslim world doesn't draw the same kind of example from it. Hattin was as described above and I think the Muslim preference for grinding down an opponent (using siege tactics, asymettric attacks, superior logistics, greater numbers, etc) rather than seeking a decisive contest of manuever forces .

We in the West often view this as cowardice, but lots of Muslims, especially jihadists, don't because its part of their martial philosophy going back to their greatest general. Now that doesn't mean much at the tactical level, but I think it can help predict behavoir at the operational and strategic level.

Team Sergeant
07-05-2007, 11:45
X,

I had little doubt you’d weigh in on the iran vs. iraq (muslim vs. muslim) wars. You, like so many other intelligence types enjoy nothing more than to “make comparisons” to wars fought 1000-2000 years ago. I think your comparisons hold little value or no value.

This subject has been beaten to death and written about ad nauseum, General Patton even was quoted as saying;

“It seems to me a certainty that the fatalistic teachings of mohammed and the utter degradation of the Arab women are the outstanding causes for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have been developing.”
As most intelligent individuals could infer from the above quote, we already know how they think, we know how they fight, we know many are islamic fanatics, we know the end justifies the means for the islamic muslims, we know they will place bombs on children, we know they will sell drugs by the metric ton in allah’s name to finance their jihad, we know they possess not a shred of integrity, honor, or any moral code other than to islam, mohammad and allah. We’ve know this for centuries, perhaps millennia.

You’re an intel officer, sure, again, tell me where they are, now, and when and where they will strike next so I can stand in their way or send them to mohammed.

$50 billion dollars a year in intelligence estimates and all I can see is longer lines at the airport. Sorry x, I’m not buying your opinions, not today.

Team Sergeant

sg1987
07-05-2007, 12:43
X,

... tell me where they are, now, and when and where they will strike next so I can stand in their way or send them to mohammed.



Team Sergeant

Damn, that makes me proud of you and those like you T.S. Thanks for the heartfelt words(and actions) of steel!

x-factor
07-05-2007, 15:32
You’re an intel officer, sure, again, tell me where they are, now, and when and where they will strike next so I can stand in their way or send them to mohammed.

I make my living doing just that, but its not something I can really chat about here so I stick to strategic-level unclassified stuff like historical comparisons and international policy.

Sorry x, I’m not buying your opinions, not today.

Thats cool. Thanks for the debate just the same.

Monsoon65
07-05-2007, 17:39
TR - Correct me if I'm wrong but the Confederate withdrawal didn't begin until the 4th. Wouldn't that mean the battle didn't really end until that morning? I'm definitely not the Civil War historian you are. In anycase, its technicalities.

Pickett's Charge was at 1500 on 3 July 1863. That pretty much wrapped things up for the Battle, but there were two cavalry actions that day, too (one with Brevet Brig Gen Custer).

Guy
07-06-2007, 19:56
X,

IYou’re an intel officer, sure, again, tell me where they are, now, and when and where they will strike next so I can stand in their way or send them to mohammed.

$50 billion dollars a year in intelligence estimates and all I can see is longer lines at the airport. Sorry x, I’m not buying your opinions, not today.

Team SergeantYou need to find that Threat Assesment from the past.;)

X,

I've chosen a new line of work because of people like you!:mad: