View Full Version : A question about etiquette (SF style)
Respected Sirs;
It is my understanding that part of the SF mission involves going into communities and establishing rapport with the local population; in fact, the Robin Sage exercise appears to include elements of such training.
Of course, I would not have a need for the more advanced material you would know and use. I don't need to recruit anyone to do anything, for example. The information I would want would be more akin to where the best place to eat might be located than anything more controversial. However, if there are basic pointers you could share about establishing friendly rapport with people in a new community, I would very much like to learn more.
I've looked through the various forums, and tried the search button to find material on this subject, but haven't come across a good match. The thread titled "...to Thrive In Ambiguous Environments..." borders on the issue, but deals with an SF team interacting with local military personnel and the indigenous population - which clearly is beyond the scope of what I need to know. The Reaper's article about Robin Sage was very informative (and pleasant reading), but, again, beyond the scope of what I need. Parts of “The Ugly American (Advisor)” give some excellent hints - but I don't need to worry about the level of challenges addressed in the posting.
If possible, I would like to consider two scenarios.
1) I live in San Antonio, Texas. It is a pleasant city in many ways; but if I went to a smaller community, perhaps in some different state, I would want to avoid annoying the residents, and gain cooperation in the various things one might need to do in a new hometown. My accent - clearly Texan - would label me as an outsider in some locales. My behaviors might not fit into a more rural area; or, for that matter, different urban areas. Indeed, even being a Texan might not go over well in some states. There is one small community where the locals have regarded a person of my acquaintance as a “foreigner”, even though his family moved there when he was one year old. He's now 73...
So, any pointers about what I should and shouldn't do?
2) Suppose I decided to take a vacation - say, 2 or 3 months - in a (relatively) friendly, peaceful country - perhaps Mexico or some other Western hemisphere nation. Perhaps some place in Europe. I'm not looking for specifics, since the location is undefined; but, if there are generalities, I would like to know more. What should I do (or not do) so that I could fit in reasonably well? Is fluency in the local language mandatory? What level of familiarity would I need with local culture, history, and religion?
If there were books or other information, any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
Bill Harsey
07-02-2007, 09:56
Find the nearest knifemaker.
They'll tell you everything you need to know.
x SF med
07-02-2007, 10:08
nmap-
Treat the people with whom you interact with respect and dignity. Observe the culture. Become a part of the community without being a know-it-all. Use common sense. Ask appropriate questions, make acquaintances and later friends. And yes, if going to a foreign contry a passing knowledge of the language is a good thing - the State Department and CIA have excellent areas on their websites that will give you info on any country, and Fodor's guides are wonderful resources too, then again, most countries, and regions and cities have websites and travel/pourism guides.
Common sense, and using the resources (brain) you were given should have answered most of this already.
Common sense, and using the resources (brain) you were given should have answered most of this already.
Point well taken, Sir. Still, I very much appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Find the nearest knifemaker.
They'll tell you everything you need to know.
(Chuckle). You make a good point. I've heard that one useful technique is to locate some of the premier business people in the new locale, and do business with them. They can form an initial circle of contacts, which can then be developed and expanded.
So one could combine the pleasure of owning a fine blade with another agenda.
Thank you for the response.
BTW - I looked at your website. Those are some beautiful knives.
Google "Cross Cultural Communications"
"God gave you two ears and one mouth...listen too twice as much than you speak!":cool:
I'm in a unique situation since my employer is from India, there are certain things (food) that I will not be ordering when we go out to eat.;)
Stay safe.
highspeedmdd
07-03-2007, 08:52
If you have the cash, go to a decent hotel (one that is no where near where you are actually staying) and hire a cab driver for a day to show you around. If he comes from a decent hotel he won't run off on you. He will take you to safe places and explain about the more "red light" areas if there are any, can tell you good places to eat, good places to shop, and show you routes to and from where you want to go. Make sure and ask about which locations and routes are best for which times of day. Then, go explore those areas. It is almost impossible to not dress like an American. So it won't hurt to buy a few pieces of clothes that the locals tend to wear. Example, in Colombia, when out at night dancing in certain parts of the country, it is customary to have a ruana with you. You would not normally have one in your wardrobe. But if you went out with one, you would appear to have foreknowledge of customs and be more readily accepted. Try local foods in a safe environment and certainly not before you fly anywhere since rish, spicy, or odd foods (goats eyes come to mind) might not be good to eat before a long plane ride. Try the local liquors prior to leaving on your trip so you know what they taste like and you can estimate how much you can safely drink without getting plastered. It was always good for me to drink the same liquor with my counterparts but I made sure never to get plastered. I learned I do not like any of the licorice drinks (aguardiente, aquavit, anis, sambouca, etc) so I always tried to have one shot of it and then switched to beer or some other liquor. Also, ask the cab driver about how to look at women. In some places it is always polite to remark about how attractive the women are...and in some places it will get you kicked out. Never never never go out with the relative of a host. Never ends up with a happy ending. A female friend is ok depending...
Trustworthy cab drivers are worth their weight in gold. If you can find a good one, don't lose his phone number.
Google "Cross Cultural Communications"
"God gave you two ears and one mouth...listen too twice as much than you speak!":cool:
Thank you, Sir!
I did the search you suggested, and came up with a wealth of information. I had not even realized such a term existed. And I'll try to act on the good advice you give about listening more and speaking less.
Trustworthy cab drivers are worth their weight in gold. If you can find a good one, don't lose his phone number.
Thank you, Sir! I had never considered any of these.
I've seen hints about cab drivers, but I hadn't really looked at the advantages (or specific methods) you mention. The idea about a local garment is great!
You've given me a gift - both of knowledge, and of your time. I appreciate both.
LongWire
07-03-2007, 21:52
What are your goals, your question reads to me as being very subversive, call me paranoid, but I question what your intentions are specifically.
What are your goals, your question reads to me as being very subversive, call me paranoid, but I question what your intentions are specifically.
Sir, I am unsure how to address your concerns. I thought I had made adequate provision against this issue in my original posting, when I limited my interest to simple civilian matters. Apparently, I was not fully successful.
Perhaps it would help if I provided a few details about myself.
On my profile, you’ll notice that I am semi-retired. In about 3 years, I hope to have enough loose ends tied up that I can consider relocation to a smaller city or town. San Antonio has been good to me in many ways; but the traffic congestion, the increases in crime, and the sheer size of the city encourage me to consider moving at some point.
My view of relocation, travel, and change of any sort is, I suspect, quite different from yours – and, for that matter, from the norms for the professionalsoldiers.com virtual community. I have lived in the same house for 31 years. I haven’t flown in years, and I hope to avoid doing so any time in the foreseeable future. I have some knowledge of exactly 2 towns other than San Antonio – it has taken decades to achieve even what marginal awareness as I have. When I go out to eat, I go to the same few places, at the same time, sit at the same table, and order the same item from the menu. At one place, the waiter needs only to say my name to the kitchen, and they know exactly what I want, and exactly how I want it. As I said, I suspect my views on this point diverge from the norm among the people on this board.
So, my goal is to learn how to gain information on a new area before taking an extended vacation or relocating. I know how to find information online, and a few calls to a local chamber of commerce can create a flood of printed material. But there are lots of things that are important, things the local people know – and things I would like to know before committing to a move.
Please understand that I cannot provide much in the way of details because I don’t even know the right questions to ask, nor do I have a clear idea where I might want to go. Some places in the U.S. are too cold, others have high taxes or too much crime, and still others lack availability of goods and services. Outside the U.S. are a variety of places that sound very nice when I read about them. But I also read about people who have disastrous experiences overseas. The young woman who went to Aruba comes to mind. Before I commit to relocating (or staying for months) I’d like to know some things about the new area. You probably don’t need to worry about being a victim of random crime; I do. Again, knowing something about the process of learning some details is what I seek. Finding out places to avoid…behaviors to avoid (or adopt)…styles of dress…whether one should bargain at a store (or not)…whether one should eat with the right hand, the left hand, or the salad fork…all the things that aren’t immediately obvious, but must surely impact one’s experience in the new venue. I’d like to know more about how to get this sort of information – and I fear the concierge at the hotel is unlikely to provide all of it.
If you’ve any thoughts or ideas to share about ways to understand a community – or even the right questions to ask – I would appreciate your input. Or, if I should specify some other details, please tell me what you’re looking for.
The Reaper
07-04-2007, 12:49
nmap:
I think the common factors in most of these criminal abduction cases are excessive alcohol, violation of the buddy rule, and a total lack of situational awareness. Basically, these people get drunk and stupid.
Most places where there are people who physically look like you, it is relatively easy to blend in by buying local clothing, keeping your mouth shut, avoiding intoxication, and keeping the SA turned up to high without being too paranoid. Hanging out with locals (preferably with an American buddy) is fine if you feel that you can trust them with your life.
As a Caucasian, you are never going to look local in Africa, or in certain communities in the US, nor will you be able to blend and move around without attracting attention.
Best of luck.
TR
LongWire
07-04-2007, 15:32
Okay Sir,
Forgive me for saying, but it seems to me that you have lived a sheltered life.
You should probably come up with some sort of checklist for what your expectations are and resource those areas your looking at and match them up to your checklist.
Wikipedia is an excellent source for searching general info, example where I presently live:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarksville%2C_Tennessee
After you have done some research for the generalities, you should consider taking a trip to that location, with checklist in hand and look the area over to see if it matches your expectations. While doing this site survey, (read US) I wouldnt worry too much about blending in since the US is very much a melting pot, except for the very small towns. A T-shirt and jeans will go anywhere for example. And as far as that is concerned if you never return, then it wont matter anyways. Military towns are pretty good for blending in, since they are occupied by people from all over to include out of state plates.
Its going to depend a whole lot on what Your concerns are. You should try and rate your concerns on your checklist from most important to least. After you have a few locations scouted out, compare how they match up together to what you have listed as your concerns. This should give you a good indication of what you may be looking for. Your comfort level should also be a guide.
As far as foreign travel goes, Im sorry to say that you will always be a Gringo. You can usually do pretty well in other Caucasian Locales, but that will generally end once you open your mouth. Some places it wont be an issue, others it will be.
Hope this helps........Good Luck
nmap:
Best of luck.
TR
Thank you, Sir. I value your counsel.
Okay Sir,
Forgive me for saying, but it seems to me that you have lived a sheltered life.
Nothing to forgive, Sir. I would be the first to agree.
Hope this helps........Good Luck
It does help; quite a lot, actually.
I think blending in is going to be important. I suspect that the next decade or so will be economically harsh for a great many people. Those who stand out could easily be resented. As you perceive, I am about as much a Gringo as it is possible to be.
The idea of a military town is excellent; I'm a bit embarrassed to say I hadn't factored that in. The men and women in America's military tend to hold and exemplify traditional values, and that's important to me.
The checklist is a good idea too; it would help me focus on just what my priorities need to be.
Thank you for the ideas!
LongWire
07-07-2007, 19:42
The idea of a military town is excellent; I'm a bit embarrassed to say I hadn't factored that in. The men and women in America's military tend to hold and exemplify traditional values, and that's important to me.
Don't let this be a source of False Security.
While there are truly some outstanding people in todays military, there are still certain individuals who foul the system. There are plenty of Military Installations that have rampant Gang problems, just to give you an example.
Keep your eyes open.
The Reaper
07-07-2007, 20:19
Not to mention that every base of any size has the usual assortment of people and businesses nearby that are predators, designed to separate the GI from his money as quickly as possible.
Pawn shops, bars, clubs, strip joints, used car lots, rental places, check cashing, title loans, fast food, tattoo parlors, you name it, and if it is seedy, it will be near a military base.
Additionally, unless it is a large city, the disproportionate numbers of male soldiers will skew the local male/female numbers as well.
There may be reasons for a non-military person to move to a military area, but I suspect that there are not too many good ones.
TR
82ndtrooper
07-07-2007, 20:25
Not to mention that every base of any size has the usual assortment of people and businesses nearby that are predators, designed to separate the GI from his money as quickly as possible.
Pawn shops, bars, clubs, strip joints, used car lots, rental places, check cashing, title loans, fast food, tattoo parlors, you name it, and if it is seedy, it will be near a military base.
Additionally, unless it is a large city, the disproportionate numbers of male soldiers will skew the local male/female numbers as well.
There may be reasons for a non-military person to move to a military area, but I suspect that there are not too many good ones.
TR
Damn, and here I thought all those single dollar bills that I put into the garter of those strippers at the "Bottoms Up" were actually paying for thier college tuition. :lifter
Although, most of the "seedy" places and business that you mention seemed to have creeped into just about any community with a large populus. We have all of the above mentioned business within reasonable driving distance. I live in a rather upscale gated community but if I should ever choose to adopt a lesser lifestyle, there's a stip club, a pawn shop, a tattoo parlor, and payday lender within 15 minutes driving distance.
Although through experience I would say that all of the above mentioned business's are more abundant just out of the gate of most military posts and bases.
Although through experience I would say that all of the above mentioned business's are more abundant just out of the gate of most military posts and bases.
Although the closest "strip bar" to Ft Stewart was about a 5-8 minute drive, right out the main gate, along the exit road, there were at least 6 "payday lenders" and 4 pawn shops in the first half mile.
My favorite was the "Liberty Electronics" and it's sister "Liberty Furniture". They offered the always famous "no payment for 6 months!" So of course some of my less experienced brothers would go nuts and lease tvs and computers and all sorts of stuff. Then of course the bill would come and it would have the normal monthly price plus 25% interest! :eek:
I would go to Savannah for everything with the exception of food. It's a real shame that these people feel the need to try to steal from troops, let alone everyday people....
LongWire
07-08-2007, 19:23
Although the closest "strip bar" to Ft Stewart was about a 5-8 minute drive, right out the main gate, along the exit road, there were at least 6 "payday lenders" and 4 pawn shops in the first half mile.
My favorite was the "Liberty Electronics" and it's sister "Liberty Furniture". They offered the always famous "no payment for 6 months!" So of course some of my less experienced brothers would go nuts and lease tvs and computers and all sorts of stuff. Then of course the bill would come and it would have the normal monthly price plus 25% interest! :eek:
I would go to Savannah for everything with the exception of food. It's a real shame that these people feel the need to try to steal from troops, let alone everyday people....
Conversely, While down in Daytona last year, I saw a "Rent To Own Rims" joint.........Laughed my Ass Off on that One!!!!!!
Conversely, While down in Daytona last year, I saw a "Rent To Own Rims" joint.........Laughed my Ass Off on that One!!!!!!I wish I'd thought of that.:eek:
Stay safe.
Conversely, While down in Daytona last year, I saw a "Rent To Own Rims" joint.........Laughed my Ass Off on that One!!!!!!
What's more funny is to see the car up on blocks after they repo the rims and wheels.
I see some every now and again as I'm driving around.
Conversely, While down in Daytona last year, I saw a "Rent To Own Rims" joint.........Laughed my Ass Off on that One!!!!!!
I read in the Fay. Observer that there is now a shop like this in town. . . some things I'll never understand. As my Momma said, "the world takes all kinds."
x SF med
07-10-2007, 15:40
Yup, lease a car that's too expensive and then rent to own the rims, sounds like a winning formula to me, where can I join?
Don't let this be a source of False Security.
...
Keep your eyes open.
Thank you, Sir. It's all too easy to embrace False Security; I'll keep your points in mind.
Pawn shops, bars, clubs, strip joints, used car lots, rental places, check cashing, title loans, fast food, tattoo parlors, you name it, and if it is seedy, it will be near a military base.
...
There may be reasons for a non-military person to move to a military area, but I suspect that there are not too many good ones.
I appreciate your comments, Sir.
San Antonio has been known as "Military City, USA" for decades - once, when the city had a population of 250,000 (presently at 1.2 million) - we had five large bases: Kelly AFB, Ft. Sam Houston (U.S. Army), Lackland AFB and Randolph AFB - and Brooks Field as well. We still have Camp Bullis, too, which is an important training area.
Several bases have closed due to realignment, and the more diverse economy has changed the mix - that said, the various businesses you mentioned were (and are) all too common. Still, I guess that San Antonio's long-term dependence on military bases has inclined me to see such areas in a positive light - perhaps an erroneously positive light.
Back when I was involved in securities brokerage, one of my clients owned several pawnshops. He charged the statutory maximum rates, which equated to 360% for small loans (under $500, as I recall) and a mere 180% for large loans. He lived well. Very well.
Thank you both. I appreciate your help.