View Full Version : 18D Medical Training Skill set
Eagle5US
04-22-2004, 19:00
18D30 Special Forces Medical Sgt: 46 weeks
Basic Life Support/Automatic External Defibrillation (AED); pharmaceutical calculations; anatomy; physiology; pathophysiology; medical terminology; basic physical exam techniques; medical documentation; pharmacology; basic airway management; medical patient assessment; advanced airway management; prehospital trauma emergencies; patient management tasks/skills; advanced trauma skills; operating room procedures; minor surgical skills; obstetric and pediatric emergencies; crdiac pharmacology; Advanced Cardiac Life Support (ACLS), clinical/ambulance rotation; extended care to the trauma patient in a field environment; mass casualty; military triage system; medical mission planning; medical threat; preventive medicine; physical examination; veterinary; dental laboratory; medical diseases and case studies; nursing; initial and long-term wound care; echelons of care (EOC) including training in combat trauma management, UW hospital, surgical procedures, preanesthesia, anesthesia, postanesthesia care, nursing care, records and reports, radiology, and central materials supply; attends a special operations clinical training site (30 days at a U.S. Army medical training facility within CONUS) including clinical training/experience and evaluation on ability to apply patient assemssment/management/care skills in various clinical settings; rotations through surgery, dermatology, pediatrics, orthopedics, radiology, preventive medicine/community health, and the outpatient/family practice clinic.
For a start...
In addition to the above, they can expect significant amounts of formal training and opportunities in:
-Dive medicine
-Altitude physiology
-Large Animal Veterinary care
-Holisitc medicine
-Ritualistic and herbal remedy
-Superstition and cultural peculiarity
-Dental extraction
-Orthopedics
-Advanced Trauma Life Support
Eagle
Joe...
Its been quite awhile since I've looked back at that syllabus...mighty impressive. Its interesting tho... that in most civilian settings, these guys can't get jobs as ER Techs...go figure!
I have 19 18D trained types (CAG, SF, SEAL)with me here in Iraq...doesn't get any better than that!
Best regards, Bro......
RB
What a great job these guys have, and unique skills too. Here is an article I found online today. It would be very interesting to read a book written by a team of SF medics about their experiences and cases they have seen in their work.
It's too bad they don't get the respect they deserve job hunting if what IMUA said is true.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/113295_medic20.shtml
krader
Eagle5US
04-25-2004, 11:53
Originally posted by IMUA
Joe...
Its been quite awhile since I've looked back at that syllabus...mighty impressive. Its interesting tho... that in most civilian settings, these guys can't get jobs as ER Techs...go figure!
I have 19 18D trained types (CAG, SF, SEAL)with me here in Iraq...doesn't get any better than that!
Best regards, Bro......
RB
You are so right...I was amazed when trying to get employment (during days o divorce) at finding out there was no civilian equivalent and ended up being the night manager for a pizza delivery:boohoo
At least now they do receive NREMT-P during the first portion of their training.
Additionally, I understand that they are receiveing training in Open reduction Internal Fixation (ORIF) for complicated fractures. What an incredible step.
Watch out for all those knuckleheads if they are in the same room together and someone gets hurt...
I had a NASTY dislocation during PT in ANCOC, I think I was more frightened as I was summarily surrounded by 10 other 18D's who were saying in unison: "Aww COOL!!! Let me fix it!!!"
Be Careful buddy...
Eagle
brownapple
04-25-2004, 14:34
Originally posted by Eagle5US
Watch out for all those knuckleheads if they are in the same room together and someone gets hurt...
I had a NASTY dislocation during PT in ANCOC, I think I was more frightened as I was summarily surrounded by 10 other 18D's who were saying in unison: "Aww COOL!!! Let me fix it!!!"
Be Careful buddy...
Eagle
LOL
I've seen the finger in question. It is permanently fucked. Actually, it isn't funny...but having an 18D have a bunch of other 18Ds "fix it" so well that nothing will ever fix it is pretty funny.
Needle D
04-27-2004, 04:49
Eagle,
Not true anymore. I'm now in language school and was in the first class that had the NREMT-P removed from the training schedule. There wasn't even an option for us to take it on our own. We have been trying to find a place to take it on our own. No luck so far. So what this means is I can't even start an IV on the out side.
Surgicalcric
04-27-2004, 05:43
Needle D:
That's interesting.
Depending on if the curriculum was changed you may not be eligible to take the NREMT-P test. The syllabus must be DOT approved, in part, to test NREMT-P. RN's cant take it either because of this.
You can contact the Nat Reg office in Ohio and they can tell you if the curriculum still qualifies and you can also find a test site on their website here. (http://www.nremt.org/EMTServices/candidate_locate_exam.asp?secID=1)
Was Registry testing removed from the SOCM students as well?
DoctorDoom
04-27-2004, 09:32
x
Eagle5US
04-27-2004, 09:35
Originally posted by Needle D
Eagle,
Not true anymore. I'm now in language school and was in the first class that had the NREMT-P removed from the training schedule. There wasn't even an option for us to take it on our own. We have been trying to find a place to take it on our own. No luck so far. So what this means is I can't even start an IV on the out side.
Odd indeed, seeing as how I talked to the previous BN Commander not two weeks ago and he told me absolutely the opposite. He has only been gone 9 months.
The SOMT-B is its own representative within the NREMT-P legislative body in Ohio. Graduates who met criteria were (according to him) eligible to take the test.
Thanks for the input, I'll see whatcomes of it.
Eagle
Surgicalcric
04-27-2004, 10:14
I had an indepth conversation with the current Dean of SOMT-B a month or so ago and he did not mention the change to me, not that that means much given my status, but it was a pretty open and frank conversation.
There was talk of a possible fast-track program in the future for those of us already NREMT-P cert'd going through the 18-D course, but the specifics had not been worked out at that time.
Needle D
04-27-2004, 14:35
The last I heard was at least my class (1-03) and the two behind me were not allowed to test. So if they changed that now I may have to go down to the SOMTB and see if i can test with the current class and get my certification. I will let you know what they say.
Thanks
Needle D
One of the 18D TACs was telling us yesterday that they are actually coming up with a seperate Special Operations Paramedic Qualification that will have a sort of "seperate but equal" status with Nat. Reg. cards. Has anyone else heard of this?
Eagle5US
05-04-2004, 18:38
"special qualification" in the early 90's...I'll see if I can find my patch and take a picture of it... :D
Eagle
Has anyone been able to determine if 18D will test EMT-P or equivalent. I have searched this with no concrete dependable results so far-
ccrn
Needle D, I was in 2-03 and we also were denied from taking the NREMT-P. In fact, one of my classmates who was a paramedic on the outside world attempted over several months to pull the strings and make the calls necessary to get some students into a test. He had established a testing site that had room for them on a certain date, collected money and paid the fees, then a few weeks before the testing he was told that the SOCM course is no longer recognized by the NR as an accredited school. I'll have to find him at school and find out who told him that again. A few poor guys lost some bucks on that one. The only certification I have that will work on the outside is my NREMT-B. I do have a fancy certification of competence issued by U.S. SOC Department of Emergency Medical Services and Public Health. According to the signatures of the USSOCOM EMS coordinator and the USSOCOM EMS medical director I'm paramedic qualified. This means nada in the civilian world, unfortunately. I'll run by the SOMTB tomorrow morning and see if I can get the latest update on the situation from the instructors and students.
Maybe I don't fully understand the implications of what you guys are discussing, but why are you concerned about being qualified in the civilian world if you're working towards practicing primarily under the umbrella of Uncle Sugar in the immediate future?
NousDefionsDoc
06-28-2004, 21:20
Originally posted by Razor
Maybe I don't fully understand the implications of what you guys are discussing, but why are you concerned about being qualified in the civilian world if you're working towards practicing primarily under the umbrella of Uncle Sugar in the immediate future?
Damn fine query.:munchin
Razor sir, you're absolutely right. Every reply I tried to think of came out sounding petty and selfish and most of them involved the word "fair." We're given an amazing amount of independence in our medical techniques, much more so than a paramedic in the civilian world. Would I rather be a paramedic or an 18D? No comparison. But regardless, here's the scoop from SOMTB. Just went in and found the civilian POC for SOCM who is working with the NR. As of the latest class who just finished SOCM, they did not take the NREMT-P. However, things are definitely in the works to change this back to the way things were a few years ago. Right now they're waiting on authorization to have the students challenge the test on their own, then the next step will be to move the testing back to the schoolhouse. So that's the word, but following what Razor said, we really have nothing to complain about.
Originally posted by Sponge
...petty and selfish and most of them involved the word "fair."
I dont feel selfish or petty and fairness has nothing to do with it. My scope of practice is already wider than EMT-P in the civilain world so that is not my concern.
Assuming I am accepted into a unit then selected and pass all phases I will be Guard (age). I understand that opstempo is high but at the same time I had hoped to also practice as EMT-P some on the outside to keep up certain skills such as intubation etc.
That would be for the benifit of pts in the field be they U.S or other. Not for monetary reasons
FWIT I understand that quite a few 18D go RN after service but I personaly think it a shame that soldiers with such high skill sets are not legaly allowed to challenge EMT-P. It might help to transition to civilian life later on-
Respectully
ccrn
Sorry ccrn, I didn't factor in the guard guys who would be in a situation to actually utilize the EMT-P quals in a matter of a few months. I was only speaking for myself in that I couldn't think of any worthwhile reason why it would be necessary for me to be NREMT-P qualed at this time. If I want to get in some ER time all I have to do now is talk to some people at Womack. Things sound like they are changing every other month, who knows, you might be in luck. Send me a PM if you need the POC over at SOMTB.
Originally posted by Sponge
Send me a PM if you need the POC over at SOMTB.
Thanks thats tempting and maybe I will get that from you in the future.
For you AD guys it would be nice to rotate through an OR for a few days and do all intubations while conus, perhaps once a year for refresher.
For that matter RC too. Staying proficient with ACLS including fluid rescusitation would be a concern too I would think especialy for RC guys unless they are TDY in the box a lot. But I dont know that from experience-
Thanks
ccrn
SouthernDZ
02-21-2007, 06:48
Maybe I don't fully understand the implications of what you guys are discussing, but why are you concerned about being qualified in the civilian world if you're working towards practicing primarily under the umbrella of Uncle Sugar in the immediate future?
While the MOS phase of the Special Forces Medical Sergeant (18D30) course remains 46 weeks, much has changed. The Special Operations Combat Medic (W-1) still occupies the same classroom space for the first 24 weeks of what is almost exclusively trauma medicine. The NREMT-P certification began for the 18D30 at the same time the SOCM course was instituted. Prior to this certification we had 18Ds who were qualified to do a great deal but were certified to do nothing. The follow-on civilian Paramedic career was not the emphasis for this certification (though it was a benefit); certification was instituted for sustainment reasons. Most hospitals (even military) required some form of certification to delineate what duties the 18D could perform during hospital sustainment rotations. Prior to this, the 18D was limited by the same scope of practice the 91W was. The AMEDD saw this need as well and began certification of their 91W (68W) as an EMT-Basics two years earlier.
The National Registry EMT-P certification did go away, has been gone for the past 4 years. This was done for a couple of reasons, some political. A major reason it went away is the NREMT-P curriculum standard is based on the Department of Transportation (DOT) minimal guidelines. These guidelines have so many hours of cardiac, OB/GYN, diabetic emergencies, etc. Unfortunately, the 18D course is already 25lbs of s*** in a 5lb bag. With the GWOT, cardiac defibrillation was not a priority for the SOF/SF medic. It just doesn't occur on the battlefield; trauma-induced cardiac arrests are DRT (dead right there). DOT didn't like the deemphasis of these and other subjects as listed above, in favor of more TCCC training.
The current SOF/SF medics are covered under the Advanced Training Protocols (ATP). At present there is no reciprocity with the NREMT-P, but the USSOCOM Surgeon's office is working on it. Having said that, NREMT-P may come back (new personalities involved); we'll keep you posted.
I recently went down to the JSOMTC for a meeting; fellas, it's relevant, serious business drawing on OIF/OEF lessons learned and is better than ever.
If I am BLS and ACLS certified with 1 year of ER (Combat Support Hospital) experience, then would I be able to become a paramedic with the training I receive from the 18D course as well?
Why not become certified in the civilian sector as well.. with the training you receive in the Army?
I understand that SF training all mission-oriented, but even so, wouldn't it benefit our soldiers more if they received academic credit equivalents in the civilian sector as well? There's nothing wrong with preparing for one's future in the civilian sector right?
The Reaper
09-03-2009, 18:02
Victor, let me guess....
You didn't read the stickies or rules, right?
You might want to before posting again.
You should also learn to use the Search button.
TR
MARSOC0211
09-03-2009, 19:19
If I am BLS and ACLS certified with 1 year of ER (Combat Support Hospital) experience, then would I be able to become a paramedic with the training I receive from the 18D course as well?
Why not become certified in the civilian sector as well.. with the training you receive in the Army?
I understand that SF training all mission-oriented, but even so, wouldn't it benefit our soldiers more if they received academic credit equivalents in the civilian sector as well? There's nothing wrong with preparing for one's future in the civilian sector right?
I don't want to step on anyone's crank here, but besides the stickies... My question is, who cares what external accredidation you receive... Your only thought process should be on the "here and now".... How am I going to become an 18x (I didn't say Delta 'cause you got to get selected first for something)...then if you do make it, how can I BEST support the team... guess what, as a Doc you have enough to worry about to ensure YOU can save a teammate's life...going out on a limb here, but that is paramount and much more valuable and gratifying than a transcript...
going back to my hole
Joe...
Its been quite awhile since I've looked back at that syllabus...mighty impressive. Its interesting tho... that in most civilian settings, these guys can't get jobs as ER Techs...go figure!
I have 19 18D trained types (CAG, SF, SEAL)with me here in Iraq...doesn't get any better than that!
Best regards, Bro......
RB
So very true, it's a shame that after all that training you can't challenge a state board for EMT-P or LPN/RN. Many moons ago ago you could challenge for LPN in Maryland & Cali but I don't think you can now. I'm a lowly ER Tech for the VA now and do alot of instructing in the private sector.
Surgicalcric
09-04-2009, 14:14
So very true, it's a shame that after all that training you can't challenge a state board for EMT-P or LPN/RN...
Thats not true.
ATP card holders get direct reciprocity in Georgia at the paramedic level. SOCM/18D grads can again challenge the NREMT-P test and can also sit for the California RN exam...
Crip
Thats not true.
ATP card holders get direct reciprocity in Georgia at the paramedic level. SOCM/18D grads can again challenge the NREMT-P test and can also sit for the California RN exam...
Crip
Thanks for the info Surgicalcric was not aware of that...
whocares175
05-01-2010, 21:23
just thought id put this out also:
jsomtc is currently in the works of getting the 18d accredited and making it a degree producing course. as of now many colleges provide 20-30 credits simply for the 18d as is and with the other experiences of the training pipeline it can account for more credits. what college and how soon this will actually is a different story. the acreditation society came through last september and last i checked the command is still working on it. also, there is another program to help retiring 18d's become pa's. they take your experience, turn it into college credit, you attend a few classes at college (not sure which one but it's around the raleigh/durham area) and they will certify you as a pa with one catch, you have to work in the rural areas of nc for i believe it's 5 years.
when i find out more, i'll post it.
as previously mentioned, socm still counts as schooling to challenge national registry at the paramedic level although you have to do the testing on your own. the school house is currently working on making the hands on portion available on a volunteer basis but so far we haven't had enough people will or someone available to proctor.
Dragbag036
05-30-2010, 17:15
Thats not true.
ATP card holders get direct reciprocity in Georgia at the paramedic level. SOCM/18D grads can again challenge the NREMT-P test and can also sit for the California RN exam...
Crip
How can I find out more about the California RN?
Surgicalcric
05-30-2010, 20:31
How can I find out more about the California RN?
Guy (I believe it was Guy) has the details. Shoot him a PM.
Crip
TrooperT
05-31-2010, 14:12
Completing the 18D course and functioning in the field does not qualify you to take the California RN Exam. Here is what the application for licensure by examination from the CA State Board of nursing says about Medical Corpsman:
*************************************
CORPSMEN:
Pursuant to Section 1418 of the Business and Professions Code, corpsmen must meet the same theory and clinical qualifications as that of a registered nurse. As a result, those applicants applying for licensure based on military training and experience may not meet the minimum qualifications for licensure.
The Board suggests that you contact a college in your area regarding your educational background. The college may be able to advise you if you will be able to use any of your course work and/or training toward a degree in registered nursing.
Also, you may want to contact the Board of Vocational Nursing and Psychiatric Technicians to inquire about licensure requirements for a licensed vocational nurse. That board may be contacted at (916) 263-7800 and is located at 2535 Capitol Oaks Drive, Suite 205 Sacramento, CA 95833.
You may also visit their web site at www.bvnpt.ca.gov. If you choose to submit an application for licensure, your fees will be nonrefundable and your application
will be evaluated. • Please mail the Request for Transcript form to the school of nursing with the fee required by the school. • Transcripts must be received and evaluated by the Board prior to being found eligible for the
examination. If you have any questions, please contact the Board of Registered Nursing at (916) 322-3350.
*******************************
Having both a Bachelor's and a Master's degree in nursing, I'm pretty confident that the average 18D would not pass the NCLEX because the focus is different and a lot of subjects are just not taught to SF. It would also be pretty hard to prove that you met the clinical hour requirements which is broken down into things like OB, gerontology, human growth and development, psychiatric, and many more.
Being an 18D is an incredible leg up for success in college for just about any aspect of medicine, but just like selection and the Q Course, there are no short-cuts.
Eagle5US
05-31-2010, 15:25
18D's are not considered "corpsmen" by the nursing board. IIRC, the section you referenced below was specifically intended to address Navy Independent Duty Corpsmen (IDC's) who were trying to piggyback into the program from the multiple Naval Bases in the region.
Though that certainly could have changed in the recent past.
Eagle
TrooperT
05-31-2010, 17:20
I couldn't find anything on the California State Board of Nursing website that specified any difference or delineating an exception for Special Forces personnel. I deal with several RN boards and I can say pretty confidently that when they use the term "Corpsman," that they mean any military medical specialist. I doubt that they really know the difference.
I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but in 25 years of experience as an RN, I've yet to meet any former 18D that was able to take the NCLEX-RN exam without first attending a formal course of instruction with the requisite hospital clinical hours first. I don't see them being successful without it because the focus is different.
At one time, the SF Medic course was really structured along the lines of what the Physician Assistant would learn but from what my friends that are still in tell me, it appears to be more trauma and paramedic skills oriented. When I went through in the 80's, we were learning our stuff from the RVN Vets.
There are a number of bridge programs at Community Colleges that give credit for Paramedic experience as a fast-track to RN, but there are experience and certification requirements for entry and it's all focused on the civilian EMT-P.
Dragbag036
05-31-2010, 17:24
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the replies. I will contact Guy as stated above. Also I agree that straight out of the course 18D's may not posses the hours, credentialing, or the patient contact times to pass the Nursing Exams. One thing that I will ask that those of us on this site to remember is that, not all of us are made the same. When a question is ask, opinions are great, but they are just that. Many here work on degrees in various fields, have various hands on as paramedics (not just as an 18D), Critical Care Emergency Transport an so on.
Again, thank you for the advice and information. I will do as my father taught me and "don't take the preachers word for it, read the book for yourself"
Thank you all for your service to this GREAT NATION, on a day of remembrance.
Surgicalcric
05-31-2010, 17:30
I dont know about the CA RN board requirements, but I have spoken to several 18D's who have successfully passed the CA boards. It has been a couple years but seems to me Guy was one of them and an instructor at SOCMSS-P was another. For a while there was a running post on SOCNET about it as well.
As for the 18D course, the first 5 months center around general and trauma medicine, to include paramedic type skills, and the final 6 months around clinical medicine (sports med/ortho, anesthesiology, surgery, nursing skills, gastro and infectious disease, etc...)
Crip