View Full Version : USS Liberty Records Released
Roguish Lawyer
06-15-2007, 12:09
http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/
That ship took a beating.
http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/
404
Pat
The Reaper
06-15-2007, 13:25
Courtesy of our allies, the Israelis.
I looked at some of the traffic, and see nothing new there.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
06-15-2007, 14:06
I see nothing good coming out of this thread...
Radar Rider
06-16-2007, 13:39
Courtesy of our allies, the Israelis.
I looked at some of the traffic, and see nothing new there.
TR
May I ask what that means, Sir? It was all a tragic mistake.
The Reaper
06-16-2007, 15:31
May I ask what that means, Sir? It was all a tragic mistake.
There are those who would say otherwise. I do not know for sure.
When you fail to notice a large US flag flying from the mast, perhaps you should not be engaging a vessel.
TR
Radar Rider
06-16-2007, 16:27
There are those who would say otherwise. I do not know for sure.
When you fail to notice a large US flag flying from the mast, perhaps you should not be engaging a vessel.
TR
I do not dispute your interpretation, Sir, but when did they see a large US flag? Do pilots, flying at 500 KPH see it so clearly?
I do not dispute your interpretation, Sir, but when did they see a large US flag? Do pilots, flying at 500 KPH see it so clearly?
Do pilots at 500KPH just fire up any 'ol big gray ship sailing out in the Med? OK - OK, we might excuse the first pass, but the rest?
Radar Rider
06-16-2007, 18:45
Do pilots at 500KPH just fire up any 'ol big gray ship sailing out in the Med? OK - OK, we might excuse the first pass, but the rest?
Could not a "big gray ship" have been a threat during an intense period of combat when the very existence of the nation was in the balance?
I think first of all, if people had better SA, friendly fire would be almost completely passe'.
edited to add, Thank you RL for the site, a good read.
Radar Rider
06-16-2007, 20:19
Analysis of the Liberty incident:
My profession for the last 20 years has been that of a Signals Intelligence Analyst; I look at the NSA “declassified” information about the Liberty incident, and I have developed my own take on the entire tragedy.
My job is to read the “traffic” (radio intercepts) and develop a comprehensible picture of the situation to present to the decision makers. I analyze all of the intercepted communications and then report on my analysis. I am bound to report on “SIGINT Fact” (if it’s not in the communications, I can’t report otherwise). Reading the declassified intercepts of the Israeli pilots and their controller shows that there was no knowledge of or intention to attack the USS Liberty.
My report (were I to write one) would indicate that the pilots were simply following the guidance of their GC (ground controller). I would also report that the pilots were only following the directions of the control tower. The control tower would only know that there was a potentially dangerous vessel, and direct the pilots to deal with it. The pilots would only know to kill the dangerous vessel.
Following that, my report would state that the pilots and the Israelis were concerned with rescuing the crewmembers of the vessel. I would probably state that the pilots returned to their base, and that the ultimate disposition of the vessel was undetermined.
The Reaper
06-16-2007, 21:10
Could not a "big gray ship" have been a threat during an intense period of combat when the very existence of the nation was in the balance?
You might want to reread the full report in the chronology with attention to detail. Pay particular attention to the report of the attack beginning on page 25, and the Israeli explanation beginning on page 37. In short, the Israeli inquiry into the event considered six charges, and found that no one did anything wrong. Looked like whitewash to me.
IIRC, the USS Liberty was a converted WW II Victory sealift ship, and looked nothing like a warship. No gun mounts larger than small arms (4x. 50 mounts), no missile or rocket launchers, and no flight deck.
The ship was sailing generally west the entire time, and was well off the coast of the UAR when attacked. In fact, the Israeli navy was tracking the ship in its CIC earlier in the day, and failed to notify the Israeli Air Force of its presence and ID before attacking the vessel themselves.
I believe that pilots have to be able to recognize silhouettes of planes and ships as well (if they are going to attack naval craft). Certainly, naval vessels engaging should be able to. According to the chronology, two Israeli fast movers reconned the ship at 0900, followed by an Israeli C-119 which circled them at 1056. The ship was attacked by Israeli attack aircraft at approximately 1400, and by surface ships at 1424. During the naval attack by Israeli PT boats, the Liberty hoisted a 7'x13' US flag from the yardarm after the original US flag was lost when the mast was shot away. The attack continued with naval gunfire and torpedos.
I fail to see how the Liberty could be mistaken for a warship, how it could be confused for an Egyptian ship one quarter its size with a completely different profile, how its presence in international waters justifies an attack, or how multiple recon flights followed by sea and air attacks could be conducted without figuring this out. In fact, many people maintain that the Israelis knew exactly what the ship was, what it did (IIRC, our US Naval liaison informed them), and deliberately attacked the US ship to keep us from gathering intel in the area. I would be more inclined to believe that accidental attack or fog of war story if the Israeli investigation had been adequate and held people accountable.
IMHO, the US Navy left a bunch of your SIGINT brethren hanging for 50 minutes while the Israelis pounded a defenseless US ship, and pretty much got cleanly away with murder. The North Koreans did it again later, and we let them get away with it as well. An attack on a US Navy ship should be an act of war. Period.
TR
Radar Rider
06-16-2007, 22:10
Sir, I differ with you regarding both the USS Pueblo and the USS Liberty. In both cases my "SIGINT brethren" faced tremendous difficulties and in fact, deaths. Both cases illustrate only that SIGINT is indeed a hazardous occupation. That SIGINTers are sent into harms way is not an indictment of neglect, but rather that such intelligence professionals are willing to perform in the face of such adversity.
The Reaper
06-16-2007, 22:25
Sir, I differ with you regarding both the USS Pueblo and the USS Liberty. In both cases my "SIGINT brethren" faced tremendous difficulties and in fact, deaths. Both cases illustrate only that SIGINT is indeed a hazardous occupation. That SIGINTers are sent into harms way is not an indictment of neglect, but rather that such intelligence professionals are willing to perform in the face of such adversity.
What specifically are you disagreeing with?
I think that the two cases illustrate a lot more than just the hazard of the occupation.
Why are you arguing about the deployment of these people, when I never questioned that? My issues are with the illegal attacks on these vessels, the whitewash of the actions of the Israelis, and the failure of the US military to protect the vessels and crew members (including NSA personnel).
Is it acceptable to deploy vessels and craft without protection or a contingency plan to cover/recover them in the event of hostile action?
TR
Radar Rider
06-16-2007, 22:31
Regarding the Liberty: I wonder at what point the Israelis decided to NOT sink the Liberty. Since the vessel was collecting information against Israel (in the conspiracy), and that nation didn't want anything negative reported (as though they even knew the SIGINT capabilities of the Liberty), wouldn't they just send the Liberty to the bottom of the sea? Why stop in mid-attack?
If the answer is that they (Israel) heard the distress call and pulled off, that is even weaker as an argument.
Radar Rider
06-16-2007, 22:45
What specifically are you disagreeing with?
TR
Sir, I only disagree that the unfortunate events regarding the USS Liberty were intentional. If I've misinterpreted your position, then I apologize.
Remington Raidr
06-17-2007, 03:00
Regarding the Liberty: I wonder at what point the Israelis decided to NOT sink the Liberty. Since the vessel was collecting information against Israel (in the conspiracy), and that nation didn't want anything negative reported (as though they even knew the SIGINT capabilities of the Liberty), wouldn't they just send the Liberty to the bottom of the sea? Why stop in mid-attack?
If the answer is that they (Israel) heard the distress call and pulled off, that is even weaker as an argument.
SO, they heard the distress call go out and knew the 6th fleet was out there, but that's not a good reason to call off the attack? IIRC surface ships were also involved. This is old, old news, but it STILL pisses me off, EVEN if I believed it was a mistake. I don't.
I really don't know if If i could ever say, I am 100% on what happened. The FF I know about when I was in-country adds to my belief it was probably not intentional espcially when reading this report and the report by Judge Cristol. The event has never made sence to me. I do not discount the Sailors statments, I know when someone is shooting at you, it is for real. After the attack on the USS Liberty a number of other events have happened too. US ships have been attacked and Sailors take hostage, buy powers hostile to the US. Yet the political repercussions of this event is still hot, almost as hot as when it happened. That leads me to believe, this event has been very advantageous to those people/groups that would love to see Israel and US part company. If there was intentions to deliberately attack the USS Liberty, it may not have been state sanctioned, but on some secret personal act by some in a position to do so or even on the US side for a desire to convolute the relationships between Israel and the US. I could even be simple CYA after a mistake is made, by someone who was not a key player in this mishap.
The anti-war elements in the world today also take advantages of mishaps, FF incidents, and other negative looking actions by MNF troops to paint a sour picture of the war. That does not automatically mean those events are false, I does show the political value in making a event look like some sort of evil act. I also think it adds additional complications to coming to a determination on what actually happened.
For those that died, may the Rest In Peace.
Today, with the latest, best technology - where pilots can focus right in on their targets, change the course of weapons in the air etc.. there are still pretty regular FF incidents and / or mistakes. I can list several off the top of my head (but what would be the point?). But with 60's technology Israel must have hit the Liberty on purpose right??
I just don't get why Israel should be held to a different standard than everyone else......
G
The Reaper
06-22-2007, 18:06
I would feel different about this if a proper investigation had been conducted and any guilty parties punished.
TR
Radar Rider
06-22-2007, 18:40
I would feel different about this if a proper investigation had been conducted and any guilty parties punished.
TR
What was 'improper' about the investigation? Who should have been punished?
The Reaper
06-22-2007, 19:03
All spelled out if you read the report.
TR
Radar Rider
06-22-2007, 20:07
All spelled out if you read the report.
TR
Let's just say, Sir (for speculations sake), that the 'report' isn't accurate. Then what?
I don't wish to even try to dispute your knowledge/point of view, but this case goes way further than the average cat knows about.
I would feel different about this if a proper investigation had been conducted and any guilty parties punished.
TR
I agree, waiting 40 years is just too long. I wonder if we will ever know why a proper investigation was never done at the time.
Again, I think you guys are expecting the investigation to have gone according to 2000's standards as opposed to a 1960's standard.
Think about it....
G
The Reaper
06-22-2007, 22:19
Let's just say, Sir (for speculations sake), that the 'report' isn't accurate. Then what?
I don't wish to even try to dispute your knowledge/point of view, but this case goes way further than the average cat knows about.
You know, you keep tap dancing around this like you have some inside knowledge. I thought that you were a little young for this, but if you are involved or privileged to something beyond the TS-U report, just PM me about it.
Fact: The USS Liberty was a converted WW II Victory sealift ship, and looked nothing like a warship. No gun mounts larger than small arms (4x .50 mounts), no missile or rocket launchers, and no flight deck.
Fact: The ship was sailing generally west the entire time, and was well off the coast of the UAR when attacked.
Fact: The Israeli navy was tracking the ship in its CIC earlier in the day, and failed to notify the Israeli Air Force of its presence and ID before attacking the vessel themselves.
Fact: The Liberty was reconned by two Israeli fast movers at 0900, followed by an Israeli C-119 which circled them at 1056. Liberty personnel claim to have had a US flag flying during that entire time. A Victory cargo ship has a pretty distinctive appearance, even with a few extra antennas.
Fact: The ship was attacked by Israeli aircraft at approximately 1400. Damage was caused by bombs and cannon from multiple strafing runs.
Fact: Israeli torpedo boats attacked the Liberty at 1424. During the naval attack by Israeli PT boats, the Liberty hoisted a 7'x13' US flag from the yardarm after the original US flag was lost when the mast was shot away. The attack continued damaging the Liberty with gunfire and one torpedo (others missed).
Fact: The Liberty informed the US Navy of all the above, verified by ships' logs, and the Navy took no action for 50 minutes.
Fact: The Israeli inquiry into the event considered six charges, and found that no one did anything wrong. Looks like whitewash to me.
Maybe the Israeli AF knew it was a SIGINT ship and maybe they didn't. Regardless, the Israeli Navy knew what the ship was and where it was by their own statements, and failed to notify the Israeli Air Force and further dispatched its own surface craft to attack her in international waters. Last time I checked, regardless of what they were doing there, if the Liberty was not engaged in shooting at Israeli forces at the time of the attack, it was wrong and illegal. The Israelis claimed that a ship was shelling their ground forces from the same general area as the Liberty. Unless someone has decided to convert a WW II Victory class cargo ship into some sort of Q Boat and fit it with cannons, I do not believe that the Liberty was responsible, nor would a reasonable man with 20/20 eyesight have thought so. This was an old report, the Liberty did not match the description, and I would say that a tramp steamer hardly represents a threat to Isreaeli national survival.
As a minimum, the Israeli Navy officers who failed to notify the AF of the status of the ship should have been held accountable, as should the Israeli AF officers who failed to properly ID the ship before engaging, and the Israeli Navy officers who engaged the Liberty (to include the CO who was told by radio that the ship was US and he continued his attack). On our side, the Navy should have launched the alert aircraft to secure the Liberty after the initial attack, and the person who failed to issue that order is culpable as well.
Hope that helps explain my position. I will maintain that if you have not read the released reports, to include the chronology, you are missing key information to an informed discussion.
TR
Radar Rider
06-23-2007, 15:52
You know, you keep tap dancing around this like you have some inside knowledge. I thought that you were a little young for this, but if you are involved or privileged to something beyond the TS-U report, just PM me about it.TR
I have no inside knowledge. I do know that people that have uber clearances are no more special than you or I. If they intended to perpetrate a coverup, they'd screw it up.
As I've stated, I read the transcript of the conversation between the pilots and the control tower. All of the communicators stated that they knew nothing of the nationality of the ship. If I can't trust a SIGINT transcript, than I have wasted 22 years of my life and my entire profession. If that is the case, then I should just probably chuck the whole fucking thing.
Radar Rider
06-23-2007, 16:01
By the way, TSU no longer exists.
The Reaper
06-23-2007, 19:41
I have nothing further to add other than making a claim based solely on the transcripts is like the blind man examining the elephant. You have the comments of a limited number of people on one side.
If you can find the time to read Chapters 4 and 5 of this http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/attack_sigint.pdf , we might be able to discuss it further.
I am aware that the classification for TSU has changed.
TR
Hate to add to this thread. Just read the book "Loud and Clear", a memoir by a well-respected Israeli Fighter Jock, Iftach Spector. He flew 8500 sorties and had 15 kills.
He was the pilot that attacked the USS Liberty and he discusses the attack in his book. The reason that the attack ended according to an interview with him is that he only had cannons and was out of ammo. He believes that had he been armed with bombs he would have sunk her.
According to him, when he returned to base, he was initially told that he had hit an Israeli navy ship - which left him shattered for a short period of time. Soon after, he was told that it was a French ship, and finally it became apparent that he had hit the Liberty.
He was made available to US investigators by the IAF and (if i recall correctly) was interviewed for 13 hours.
Yes, this is the word of one man, but he is surprisingly open about his errors, his shortcomings etc (he was the only pilot whose bombs missed the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981) and he certainly speaks his mind on Israel generally - it's not all positive.
Reading his story, you certainly get a feel for the environment in which he was operating, and how this could have happened.
Take Care...
G