View Full Version : America's Warrior Spirit is Fading
The Reaper
06-15-2007, 10:46
Excellent, if long-winded articlde by Kaplan on American society and how it relates to the US military (or not).
http://www.the-american-interest.com/ai2/article.cfm?Id=289&MId=14
This was something that struck me when I read Gates of Fire. We, as Americans, are almost totally unfamiliar with the brutality of war, violence, and evil, or the thin red line that defends this country from a descent into that Hell man is capable of. Abu Graib was a fraternity hazing, and reading the enemy interrogation and torture manual will quickly reveal that to those who will open their minds.
Our wake up call may be coming. I fear for what our children may soon face.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
06-15-2007, 11:05
Interesting article, TR.
I believe that the greatest threat to our country does not come from abroad, but from within. It is a philosophy that has many names -- "multiculturalism," "diversity," "tolerance," etc. Ultimately, this philosophy is German in origin -- it comes from Heidegger, Marx and Nietzsche, but it purports to be an extension of the Lockean natural rights theory upon which our Constitution is based. It goes WAY beyond ordinary civil rights concepts, and breaks down the ability to criticize anyone for anything. Essentially, it challenges the ability to claim right and wrong. So who can criticize the Hitlers and bin Ladens of the world? After all, they have their own culture and who are we to criticize them? This is a major reason why people don't support military action anymore -- they just don't believe our system of government is better than anyone else's, because who are we to tell others how to live? (There are other reasons too, like being too comfortable, but I think this is secondary.)
These views now completely dominate our universities and the media. As a result, they are now beginning to dominate lower-level schools, certain groups of professionals and even the mainstream in certain states. While our soldiers do amazing work fighting our enemies abroad, increasing numbers of people at home don't support that effort because they don't believe we should tell others what to do, no matter how evil they are.
So I believe we have terribly important battles to fight at home: in the schools, in the universities and in the media. And if we don't fight those battles, we are doomed.
Boy, I need a drink! ;)
3SoldierDad
06-15-2007, 12:07
Our wake up call may be coming. I fear for what our children may soon face.
TR
May face? .... Will face!
We're moving out of probabilities into certainties. The pussification of America is almost complete.
There's good news and bad news...
We may not get hit with WMD for a few years, maybe not for many years - that's the good news. The bad news is that if we don't wake up soon with a cold slap in the face or with a hard kick in the lucky-charms the pussification of America will be complete. And, when pu**y America gets slammed in our distant future the whole nation comes apart at its pu**y seams.
Then there's bad news and good news...
We get kicked in the lucky-charms with something terrble soon - something really awful and something very soon - that's bad; but here's the good news - We get hurt real bad and real soon and America comes to its Warrior senses and what masculinity that is left in our national soul is revived and the pussification of America is stopped dead in its tracks. America's Warrior ethos is saved.
Three Soldier Dad....
Chuck
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Roguish Lawyer
06-15-2007, 12:14
"Pussification"! Good word, Chuck! Much more concise than the way I put it. LOL
3SoldierDad
06-15-2007, 12:26
"Pussification"! Good word, Chuck! Much more concise than the way I put it. LOL
I'm 48 on Sunday - Back in the 60s and early 70s the WORSE thing you could call a kid was a pu**y... The fastest way to a fight was to call another guy a pu**y...nothing worse...Some of you guys know exactly what I mean.
America is so full of fat pu**ies - darn it, skinny pu**ies, too. Honestly, I have a lot of anger about what is happening to us.
Sorry, I need to take a break and go PT myself...
Three Soldier Dad...Chuck
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Ultimately, this philosophy is German in origin -- it comes from Heidegger, Marx and Nietzsche, but it purports to be an extension of the Lockean natural rights theory upon which our Constitution is based.
Very true RL- the irony being that what is happening in America and TO America is precisely the domination of the strong by the weak that Nietzsche talked about:
The denigration of the sheepdog by the sheep he protects because of his (perceived) similarities to the wolves, and (more centrally) his indirect indictment, by his mere existence, of the sheep's courage- or lack thereof.
The desire to rewrite history to favor those considered to be the "weak" or "underdog", regardless of the actual MORALITY involved.
The sprawling Anti-Americanism and Antisemitism that runs wild through the world, which seeks to turn every bastion of American culture and success into a vicious abuse of some "other."
Those that cannot, turn their inability and unwillingness into a virtue, while turning the strength, ingenuity, and domineering mentality of those that DO, into a vice. I never liked Nietzsche- because he always made me the most depressed to read, and yet he always seemed to make the most sense.
T
Dirt Gallo
06-15-2007, 12:51
"...We get hurt real bad and real soon and America comes to its Warrior senses and what masculinity that is left in our national soul is revived and the pussification of America is stopped dead in its tracks. America's Warrior ethos is saved."
I stay to the sidelines and learn from what you guys write most of the time, but, I just have to interject a little here.
After 9/11, I saw this happen in my community, and almost everywhere I looked in the country(for the most part), but, other than those that had to deal with it or looking to becoming part of it, it was short lived. I've met too many people who've forgotten why our military is Afghanistan and Iraq....
Someone once told me that America's memory is too short....that we - a young country compared to the rest of the world - act as a child does. We get slapped, we cry, we react, then we resume play as usual.
"Sheeple" is a word I have learned on these boards. Who shall become the sheperds? Sometimes it seems that it is those in Hollywood steering the flock.
Sorry for the small venting.....resuming PT.
the squid
06-15-2007, 13:15
Reminds me of a quote:
"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldier will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!" -LT Gen Chesty Puller
I think the premise of the article is correct in intention, but I think that most Americans (perhaps not those in power), are still red blooded, and when pushed, they push back.
Very Briefly:
This is the ONE possible negative of a volunteer military. US forces are obviously all voluteer (not including stop loss :) .) Time goes on and slowly two classes develop: The warrior class and the civilian class. The Warrior begins to resent he whom he protects and the protected begins to resent, marginalize and deem irrelevant the warrior. The warrior class see's and feels the pain it takes to earn and maintain freedom and begins to resent the civilian because the civilian has no concept of the total physical and mental effort it takes to be a warrior. The warrior views the civilian as a hedonistic loafer interested in nothing other than serving his own selfish needs. The people that were drafted , even the ones that hated it (for the most part) have at least some modicum of respect for what the warrior is and what he is asked accomplish. I am not advocating a draft but perhaps conscription for ALL American males of 18yrs of age...does not have to be the military the Air Force is OK too. This would introduce Americans to reality and hopefully slow or stop the downward spiral of the Warrior Spirit.
NousDefionsDoc
06-15-2007, 14:26
You think having a Warrior class is a negative?
NousDefionsDoc
06-15-2007, 14:35
That's a really good article, thanks for sharing Boss.
You think having a Warrior class is a negative?
To the contrary...member of that class myself.
The Reaper
06-15-2007, 15:22
I would vote for a Heinleinian "Starship Troopers" type of society, with mandatory national service to earn full citizenship rights. Most people in this country value neither their voting rights, their national service, nor their military protectors, so I am not sure that most would even notice.
A weak POTUS, like Hillary and Obama, and a Dem Congress, who are unwilling to face the threats to our society with a full range of options could end this country as we know it in less than four years. I will not describe the actions it would take, but I believe that I could plan it out and if I can figure it out, our foes certainly can.
That would assume that the ever increasing wave of people who live off of entitlement programs and the illegal immigrants who are swamping the same lifeboat do not bankrupt the nation from within first.
TR
Black Knight
06-15-2007, 16:46
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
- John Stuart Mill
It would appear they had to deal with pussification 150 years ago also.
I would vote for a Heinleinian "Starship Troopers" type of society, with mandatory national service to earn full citizenship rights.
TR
Crossed Fingers :D
Some Times I wish for a Chance Contact with Aliens....
Something tells me they wont be so nice. That would realy make us get our head's out of our 4th point of contact...
the squid
06-15-2007, 19:59
I would vote for a Heinleinian "Starship Troopers" type of society, with mandatory national service to earn full citizenship rights. Most people in this country value neither their voting rights, their national service, nor their military protectors, so I am not sure that most would even notice.
I was thinking the same thing, sir! :D
I would also add that most people are so busy serving themselves to serve something higher than themselves.
It's a fantastic book, although I thought it odd that the movie chose to look from a different angle.
Neither Kaplan nor anyone else on this thread has substantiated the idea that a widespread "warrior culture" existed at anytime in our Nation's history. Even during WW2, with the benefit of the "greatest generation", draftees far outnumbered volunteers. Our grandfathers and great-grandfathers did not relish war, and most did not go willingly, regardless of the foe.
However, I agree with RL's point that few Americans today can conceive of anything worthy of personal sacrifice. It's probably just as well. The vast majority of the citizenry would make lousy foxhole buddies.
Are we unappreciated and taken for granted? Sure! Who cares? There is work to be done and all this navel gazing is unseemly.
As an LEO I am costantly reminded of the phrase "Bread and Circuses" when I work. As long as the American people have cheap, readily available food, comfort and plenty of mindless entertainment they are content.
As an LEO I am costantly reminded of the phrase "Bread and Circuses" when I work. As long as the American people have cheap, readily available food, comfort and plenty of mindless entertainment they are content.
So, I guess this is the American “opiate for the masses”? Now they can be content while someone takes away their freedoms.
3SoldierDad
06-16-2007, 08:39
Are we unappreciated and taken for granted? Sure! Who cares? There is work to be done and all this navel gazing is unseemly.
Who cares? I do....
The question is when few care about the enterprise of a warrior except those who are doing the work how long can the a nation expect that the work can go on?
Not long I am afraid.
I am costantly reminded of the phrase "Bread and Circuses" when I work. As long as the American people have cheap, readily available food, comfort and plenty of mindless entertainment they are content.
Yes, but how sustainable is this?
Not long I'm afraid.
Three Soldier Dad...
Chuck
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3SoldierDad
06-16-2007, 08:55
Are we unappreciated and taken for granted? Sure! Who cares? There is work to be done and all this navel gazing is unseemly.
Who cares? .... I do.
The question is when few care about the enterprise of a warrior except those who are doing the work how long can the a nation expect that the work can go on?
Not long I am afraid.
I am costantly reminded of the phrase "Bread and Circuses" when I work. As long as the American people have cheap, readily available food, comfort and plenty of mindless entertainment they are content.
Yes, but how sustainable is this?
Not long I'm afraid.
.
You know the fact that our attitudes are where they are and that our apparent dissipation as a culture is where it is - I'm deeply sobered...I get a shiver up and down my spine - Almost like the writing is on the wall.
It is darkly poignant, and in a discouraging way, profoundly moving.
Three Soldier Dad...
Chuck
FearMonkey
06-16-2007, 11:19
A few of us had this discussion a couple days ago. My buddy (currently in Iraq) said it best when he asked, "When did Americans decide it was bad to be on the winning team? It's like our country is made up of people who always got picked last for dodgeball."
Of course, he was preaching to the choir because my other friend (currently in Asia) refers to the United States of America as "The Empire." And not in a joking way. I honestly believe he thinks he's going to Valhalla when he dies.
Rest assured, we're trying to do our part to keep the Warrior Spirit of Americans alive. :lifter
3SoldierDad
06-16-2007, 12:17
It's like our country is made up of people who always got picked last for dodgeball.
Yeah, a bunch of spineless wussies... Losers.
They won't play if they can't win. But, they can't win if they don't play....And, when forced to play, they don't play to win.
Losers.
A winner can lose everytime - except once - in the end he must win. That's why he is a winner - He never accepts defeat - NEVER
A loser can win everytime - except once - in the end he loses - that's why he's a loser - He can accept defeat.
This is why we always picked losers last for dodgeball - not because they were bad players, but because defeat was acceptable to them - And, those of us who loved to win didn't want a loser on our team - "A small fly in the ointment makes the perfumers oil stink."
Rest assured, we're trying to do our part to keep the Warrior Spirit of Americans alive.
I'm deeply thankful for your service FearMonkey - In my eyes - you, your buddies and our other men in uniform are the true heroes of our time. However, I cannot rest assured when our nation is becoming an encampment of effeminate Barney-hugging wussies...
My assured rest and my family's assured rest and the assured rest of my community cannot depend on a few men's best efforts - even our best men's best efforts - It depends on OUR RESULTS as a nation - that's where we're sucking wind. Policy in this nation is in danger of being driven by an ever growing cancer of weak-kneed wussy losers...Even as I write this it looks like Condoleeza Rice is trying to trump V.P. Dick Cheney and other defense realists by pushing the administration to go easy on the Iranians - The state department wants to keep reasoning with more blah-blah-blah with those people. The Persians have got to be laughing up their sleeves at us - As they should - Think of dressing Barney in Kevlar - funny, isn't it? So funnny I'm crying...
Anyway, I need to go PT myself .... yet, again. :(
Three Soldier Dad...
Chuck
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A few of us had this discussion a couple days ago. My buddy (currently in Iraq) said it best when he asked, "When did Americans decide it was bad to be on the winning team? It's like our country is made up of people who always got picked last for dodgeball."
Of course, he was preaching to the choir because my other friend (currently in Asia) refers to the United States of America as "The Empire." And not in a joking way. I honestly believe he thinks he's going to Valhalla when he dies.
Rest assured, we're trying to do our part to keep the Warrior Spirit of Americans alive. :lifter
When working in other countries. I have been asked more then once "why do so many Americans hate their own Country? I don't know why. You see criticism and negative stories about the Government in other countries. But you never see it written or spoken with the obvious hatred like you see in the US. It's not because they will go to jail either.
For example. They print a story about a Human Rights violation by their own Soldiers or Police. Yes the story covers the violation. It also covers the accused punishment. The story won't only focus on the details of the violation. The story also won't be on the cover of the most popular News Paper 18 days straight. Purposely releasing a couple of photos per day to keep the story front page news. Like the NYT did with our prisoner abuse story.
They seem to know the difference between freedom of the press and aiding and abiding the Enemy. The Military PR Program in Colombia is excellent.
Team Sergeant
06-16-2007, 14:08
Yeah, a bunch of spineless pussies... Losers.
Three Soldier Dad...
Chuck
Chuck,
Professionalsoldiers.com is a public forum read by men, women and children. You made your point. Let's move on to more PG rated language.
Team Sergeant
3SoldierDad
06-16-2007, 15:02
Chuck,
Professionalsoldiers.com is a public forum read by men, women and children. You made your point. Let's move on to more PG rated language.
Team Sergeant
Got it...
Did some cleaning-up...I got it from PG-13/ R down to PG. ;)
Three Soldier Dad - Thanks
To my reading, this thread has devolved into a sort of "woe is us" type discussion, which was not the point of Kaplan's article. The alleged weakness of the American public was not his point, either. His point was that the public has become increasingly untethered from the sacrifices, hard work and professionalism of our military.
I, for one, think that this is a much more interesting and pressing issue than the supposed downward trajectory of the American male (which I don't buy at all). In fact, my civilian contemporaries and colleagues are the type of men that have dominated their entire lives, whether in sports or business, and I have no doubt that they would do the same if called to serve.
Any ideas on how we can bridge this divide? :munchin
3SoldierDad
06-16-2007, 18:36
Some great quotes from Kaplan...
Any policy that fails to communicate a warrior spirit—only makes war more likely.
Clausewitz is no less committed – “In affairs so dangerous as war, false ideas proceeding from kindness of heart are precisely the worst. . . . The fact that slaughter is a horrifying spectacle must make us take war more seriously, but not provide an excuse for gradually blunting our swords in the name of humanity. Sooner or later someone will come along with a sharp sword and hack off our arms.”
Sun-Tzu and Clausewitz could rise to the level of theory only because they had absorbed practice.
Patriotism overlaps with what, for lack of a better phrase, is a kind of moral hardiness, by which I mean an attitude of serious engagement concerning right and wrong behavior.
Universal values are a good in and of themselves, and they are not the opposite of faith. But they should never be confused with it.
Some Ivy League schools had no one enter the military last year. Only one member of the Stanford graduating class had a parent in the military.
Maj. General Lehnert, whose son was the lone graduating student from a military family, was struck by how many of the other parents had never even met a member of the military before he introduced himself.
Air Force Colonel Robert Wheeler - "Decadence is the essential condition of a society which believes it has evolved to the point where it will never have to go to war. By eliminating war as a possibility, it has nothing left to fight and sacrifice for, and thus no longer wants to make a difference."
I cannot remember how many times a soldier or marine told me that we don’t want to be pitied as victims, but respected as fighters. That respect is not abundant, which brings us to an especially sharp practical edge of what our forgetfulness has wrought.
A military will not continue to fight and fight well for a society that could be losing faith in itself, even if that society doffs its cap now and again to its warrior class.
When pleasure and convenience become values in and of themselves, false ends displace necessary means. It is as Sun-Tzu and Clausewitz said: "While a good society should certainly never want to go to war, it must always be prepared to do so." But a society will not fight for what it believes, if all it believes is that it should never have to fight.
Three Soldier Dad ... Chuck
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Roguish Lawyer
06-16-2007, 20:11
I, for one, think that this is a much more interesting and pressing issue than the supposed downward trajectory of the American male (which I don't buy at all). In fact, my civilian contemporaries and colleagues are the type of men that have dominated their entire lives, whether in sports or business, and I have no doubt that they would do the same if called to serve.
I don't know, jatx. My observation is that the new generation of lawyers coming up (and probably the next generation period) just doesn't take that much pride in its work, doesn't ever feel a sense of urgency, and generally fits Chuck's characterization.
In fact, my civilian contemporaries and colleagues are the type of men that have dominated their entire lives, whether in sports or business, and I have no doubt that they would do the same if called to serve.
Everyone is not from Texas.:D
But a volunteer military is necessarily dominated by those regions with an old-fashioned fighting ethos: the South and the adjacent Bible Belts of the southern Midwest and Great Plains. Marine and Army infantry units, and in particular Army Special Forces A-teams, manifest a proclivity for volunteers from the states of the former Confederacy,…
Can I say Hooah for Dixie?
Kaplan notes what most of us in the south have known for generations!
On a serious note Kaplan makes mention of the role of faith in the heart of a warrior; faith in God and in country. We are losing the latter because we as a collective group are losing the former. Europe with its mostly empty Cathedrals has gone ahead of us down this path. We would do well to see how it works for them-or not.
The Bible belt still has some preserving effect to add to the American recipe but from my O.P. it appears as though it is diminishing here as well.
I believe that the greatest threat to our country does not come from abroad, but from within. It is a philosophy that has many names -- "multiculturalism," "diversity," "tolerance," etc. Ultimately, this philosophy is German in origin -- it comes from Heidegger, Marx and Nietzsche, but it purports to be an extension of the Lockean natural rights theory upon which our Constitution is based. It goes WAY beyond ordinary civil rights concepts, and breaks down the ability to criticize anyone for anything. Essentially, it challenges the ability to claim right and wrong.
These views now completely dominate our universities and the media. As a result, they are now beginning to dominate lower-level schools, certain groups of professionals and even the mainstream in certain states. While our soldiers do amazing work fighting our enemies abroad, increasing numbers of people at home don't support that effort because they don't believe we should tell others what to do, no matter how evil they are.
So I believe we have terribly important battles to fight at home: in the schools, in the universities and in the media. And if we don't fight those battles, we are doomed.
If you look at the history of the older University’s in America it appears as if most were either started by churches or to train ministers. While one may differ with the theology of these folks – it would be safe to say that they had firm convictions and stood by them. Not today; this short, sad statement says a lot:
“Princeton has never had any official religious affiliation, rare among American universities of its age. At one time, it had close ties to the Presbyterian Church, but today it is nonsectarian and makes no religious demands on its students”
I would not be one for ramming my religion down another’s throat. I’m convinced that the Lord wants this to be a personal decision. However as Kaplan pointed out so well; the more secular our nation becomes the less our resolve.
Neither Kaplan nor anyone else on this thread has substantiated the idea that a widespread "warrior culture" existed at anytime in our Nation's history. Even during WW2, with the benefit of the "greatest generation", draftees far outnumbered volunteers. Our grandfathers and great-grandfathers did not relish war, and most did not go willingly, regardless of the foe.
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I often heard of enlistment lines after Pearl Harbor. This gent recalls first hand.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/9/8/214428.shtml
Maybe "Freedom & Democracy" as it once was has devolved into "Mob Rule." Moral relativism is replacing christianity. I think that freedom of religion, as originally intended, was freedom to practice christianity in its many forms, or to be free from practicing it. I am guessing here, but I doubt that the original intent was to allow others the freedom to practice budhism, dao, shinto, islam, krishna, wickka, etc. Freedom of religion was meant to prevent the inquisition or something similar from happening here, no? And yes, I do believe that the lack of participation in protestant christian churches has a direct effect on the character of our people.
Perhaps our constitution lacks the language to preserve our civilization as originally intended. There is no law that mandates our participation in the society, no "peer" program which mandates the mentoring of our sons, no obligation that certain beliefs, values, and duties which make up our character must be passed on from one generation to the next.
Because we havnt passed on legally mandated moral traditions, beliefs, values and duties to nearly every child raised here, we have people living lives with a foundation of self doubt, and a lack of confidence. They have no "datum" no frame of reference which is in line with the greatest american tradtions, to keep them inline. Eventually moral relativism is accepted by more and more people. Which leads to the "hating" of winners, and eventually self loathing. VDH indirectly touched on this American self loathing some in a recent article. http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson061207.html
Maybe the next great world power will be something of a "Free Oligarchy" rather than a Democracy. Certain freedoms, certain legal/moral obligations to protect it. There is no perfect government, and don't they all last as long as the consent of the governed? Like so many celebrities - once we get to the top, we start hating ourselves, and start a decline completely of our own making.
Men of character are always in need, no matter the circumstances of government which he finds himself under the jurisdiction of. Men of character are created during their youths, by what happens at home. This is my opinion.
Jatx, you raise a good point on the draft. I would contend that the men and women who are currently serving is the greatest generation, in that it is also a all volunteer military.
NG, my understanding many of the "founding fathers" where more deist rather than "Christians". They choose their words wisely. example the Declaration of Independence, "Nature's God".
It is said, "Founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe."
That debate is still being argued.
if called to serve.
All other discussion points aside, the above note is the one with which I take most umbrage. If called to serve. Is the fact that we are fighting a war in two countries not a call to service? Do your contemporaries who have dominated in sports, business etc. need to be drafted before they feel the "call to serve"?
I guess there’s a part to the male make-up that transcends the ability to dominate in business and in sports. I’ve found many an excellent athlete and hard nose business man to be missing this most important ingredient: honor.
And yes, I do believe that the lack of participation in protestant christian churches has a direct effect on the character of our people.
Nice to know where we Catholics stand. LOL
I also highly disagree with your interpretation of "Freedom of Religion," but see that as fodder for another time (and forum).
Take care,
Mike
Do your contemporaries who have dominated in sports, business etc. need to be drafted before they feel the "call to serve"? .
There has been no national call to service. No sustained series of speeches by political leaders calling for self-sacrifice and participation, no peer pressure to do one's part. Most people's daily lives have not even been affected by the conflict, and for most the war is little more than an annoyance. The girlfriends of twenty-something year old men are not telling them to come home "with their shields or on them."
Frankly, most everyone I know thought that my personal decision to leave behind a great career, a comfortable life and the chance to start a family in order to join a SF unit in the Guard was pretty bizarre, and I'm not saying that because I want a cookie. When life is safe and comfortable, when we celebrate a culture of success rather than one of service, and when the call has not gone out, what else can we realistically expect?
The supposedly reduced state of the American male is not the problem here. The problem is that for a long time now, the focus of most parents and schools has not been on producing responsible citizens. The fact that some of you have raised sons who are now serving just shows that it can be done, despite all of the other negative influences that are out there.
FWIW, I don't think the draft is what we need, although I am in favor of a system of mandatory national service. Of course, a WMD in the Port of Long Beach would likely serve the same purpose.
The Reaper
06-17-2007, 18:08
First, IIRC, the freedom of religion clause was to prohibit the establishment of an official state religion, ala the Church of England.
Second, I do believe in the wussification of the American male and overly-sensitive nature of Americans as well as a natural inclination to suspect the worst of the government and our fellow Americans. The required treatment of American kids at Basic Training now versus 40 years ago will show you that. Gunnery Sergeant Hartmann would be relieved in about 30 seconds now. I believe that we did a lot worse than Abu Graib to fellow Americans in 1861-1865 or so, much worse to the native Americans for hundreds of years, and in virtually every conflict up till Vietnam, fought with a savagery and lack of remorse that makes our conduct during the worst hours of this current campaign look like schoolyard playtime. We need to accept that as Sherman said, war is hell, and start to act like it. A little fear among our enemies is not a bad thing. How many nukes have we had to use since dropping the only two ever used in conflict back in 1945?
I wonder if the Chinese have figured out what a WMD in the Port of Long Beach would do to their economy, as well as ours. Maybe they should be helping more and proliferating less.
Finally, I think the day we started labeling ourselves as anything hyphenated Americans was the day that we started down the drain. We are Americans first, and anything else remotely second. That is one of my biggest concerns with the current immigration bill. Maybe one in ten of these illegals wants to be an American, The rest just want the freedom and economic benefits, and even if they have been here for 20 years, still consider themselves Mexicans, Hondurans, Guatemalans, etc.
The children of the Depression and the Greatest Generation were a very hard act to follow. I do not feel in any way superior to my father except in education, which he helped provide.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Ret10Echo
06-18-2007, 05:14
Remeber that it is "Freedom of religion" not "Freedom from religion" The wall of separation from a Jefferson's personal letter is one of the worst stretches in history....good thing the Supreme Court hasn't used any of former President W.J. Clinton's letters to establish precedence....
In Tyler's phases of democracy IMO we are somewhere between stages 6 and 7. Stage 6 being "from complacency to apathy" and stage 7: "from apathy to dependence"
We have wrought a generation that has expectations of fullfillment. YOU OWE ME....as in all things if you do not earn or struggle for something you have no sense of ownership, therefore you do not maintain or nurture the "thing" that has been handed to you. I would venture to say that we as a society have become so far removed from the "earning" of our freedoms that we (American Society) have no respect for what we have.
A warrior spirit requires an understanding of sacrifice and a vision of the greater good. A value must be placed on the freedom we experience. My hope is that the awakening of our youger generation will not be as violent as what I expect it would have to be. 9/11 shook some out of slumber, but a sorrowful few.
My .02
Religion has a lot to do with a "warrior spirit" or the "will to fight."
I chose to say protestant christians rather than "christians" because if you look to places where there is a large catholic community in the US ~ TODAY ~ you will find hotbeds of anti - US sentiment. That is my own perception, not based on any statistical data, etc. Here in California the Catholic church actively supports the illegals. Boston, Mass and it's offspring are also predominately Catholic. I am not saying that Catholics are bad, etc. I am just showing you how MY perception of the Catholic church is built. Good, bad, right, wrong. That's my opinion, my belief. My Dad is Catholic, he and I get along just fine, he's got two bronze stars with V devices for his time as a grunt in Korea, he is 74 and refuses to retire, he works in construction ~ I mean with hand tools on job sites ~ not in the office. Harder than woodpecker lips. But he's also a Democrat. I think it's safe to say he's got a warrior spirit. Though he is catholic.
I think that to provide the same freedom of religion to faiths outside of Judeo Christianity is a bad thing. You should be free to be of whatever faith you choose, but not free to organizationally practice it within the borders of the US of A. Adios budhists, muslims, etc. "Diversity" begins there, and has a fragmenting effect on our people. The State should not go around locking up folks for being of this or that faith. But they should not endorse faiths OUTSIDE of judeo christianity with the same tax status, etc. These religions should be actively prevented - prohibited from building places of worship, advertising, prostelytizing, etc.
Diversity is divisive ~ and it is divisive by the intent of those who wish to clothe us in it. Change, the evolution of a people, adapting to new things is good. Provided there is a strong cultural foundation to view change, evolution, adaptation from. A foundation culture to frame new developments with.
Immigration is good, provided the immigrants have skills, are examined for health risks, are of a judeo christian or agnostic background, and have a true desire to become Americans, rather than persons here to make money to send back home. Be here with both feet. I think it's a huge mistake that a majority of immigrants ~legal ones~ come from turd world countries. There are huge populations in former warsaw pact countries (the Czech's, Poles, etc.), people that love of America & want to be Americans, but the quotas for folks from those countries (the numbers of immigrant visas authorized) are lower than from places where you will find a strong anti american sentitment, uneducated populations.
Europe has had it's experiment with diversity. How's that working for them? Why follow the same lead? We will not end hunger, or bring world peace, or solve the worlds problems by bringing them all to America. Teach, assist, maybe even protect in some cases, but don't bring them all here. Set an example rather than give them a handout. Immigration is out of control, by design.
Diversity, Tolerance, and poor immigration policy, coupled with the "wussification" factor, and the "what can I get from the Government" mindset, gives us the population we are seeing today. Bad elements include "zero tolerance" policies for violence. That's like saying zero tolerance for tools. There is a time to punch a guy square in the kisser. Some guys have it coming. Since schools have had zero tolerance for violence policies have there been more school shootings or less? Bring back boxing to junior and high school aged P.E. classes.
That's my take for what it's worth. FRED 08.
Ret10Echo
06-18-2007, 10:09
I think the terms "Religion" "Faith" and "Church" have been hopelessly muddied.
Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth, we are a country of and established through "Faith" (belief in that which is unseen) in a supreme,devine being. The definition of a "Church" depends on where you stand. It could be a structure built by men, or it can be a body of believers of common faith.
Our system of government is designed to function around a group of assumptions based on a specific moral code (Judeo-Christian) The system will not accept input that does not conform...it isn't designed for that and trying to make it work with "diverse" codes corrupts the system much like computer software.
On the note concerning certain programs, this came through my in-box recently:
I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.
Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the table...everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.
After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.
frostfire
06-18-2007, 10:21
The rest just want the freedom and economic benefits, and even if they have been here for 20 years, still consider themselves Mexicans, Hondurans, Guatemalans, etc.
nothing but the truth!!! It made me sick to my stomach to interact with these folks. Some of them are even my own family. Consequently, they view me like a nutcase for believing in and willing to lay down my life for what they call "not your own country and origin." What the?!?!?!
Anchor babies are known for influx from SOTB, but this practice is also very common from South Korea, SE Asia and other places as well. These people use permanent residency to be as opportunistic as possible, sucking every benefits possible from this country like parasites. I do understand that it's human nature to desire better living condition, never-satisfied etc., but just because it's nature doesn't mean it's right in all circumstances. People also tend to quickly assume privileges as rights.
Edward Wilson character from the Good Shepherd expresses the sentiment perfectly "(we have) The United States of America, the rest of you are just visiting"
Had to vent. Sorry for the hijack.
Back to the topic. I wonder if protestant values are also responsible for the wussification. "turn the other cheek"....1st Corinthians 13 etc. etc. Even Reaper Sir stated he seems to cling more to the "old testament ways."
Also IMHLOO, complacency has a lot to do with it, and many parents are somewhat responsible. They do not want their children to live the hard life they had, so they provide (spoil) as much as they can. I always like parents (and the kids) who make his son/daughter work/save for their 1st car, and make them demonstrate changing tires 'n solving minor problems before handing the keys.
I chose to say protestant christians rather than "christians" because if you look to places where there is a large catholic community in the US ~ TODAY ~ you will find hotbeds of anti - US sentiment. That is my own perception, not based on any statistical data, etc.
St. Louis is one of the largest Catholic communities in the country (hence the Pope always making a stop there)............. I was completely unaware that it was a "hotbed" of anti-US sentiment...... and I grew up there, have family there, travel there routinely, etc....... as a matter of fact, it is one of the more conservative, "pro US" communities out there.
I am curious as to what your perception is being based upon, being that you freely admit that it is not based upon fact.
Also, you need to research the difference between "correlation" and "causation." What you are -attempting- to use as a justification for your perception is a correlation at best, and in no way demonstrates a causal connection.
For example, I can say that most of the large urban communities that are "hotbeds" for anti-US sentiment also have major league sports teams....... whereas most of the small, rural communities where everyone has a yellow ribbon magnet on their F250 do not........ does that mean that major league sports cause anti-US sentiment? No. That is an example of a correlation.
So is your flawed logic regarding Catholics.
I am not going to address your position that the state should be able to "choose" which religions are allowed to be practiced in an organized fashion. Simply put, it is the most absurd idea that I have ever heard. Just curious, would you feel the same way should the state choose to put your religion on the "ban" list? I doubt it.
I do not pretend to have the keys to the kingdom on this one.
But, I'm raising my son to be hard. I provide well for my family and there is certainly nothing that he needs and there is not much that he could want. Since life isn't naturally hard for him my wife and I make it so.
He's 10. He mows the lawn. He helps me when something breaks. He can shoot straight and respects that ability. When he gets hurt, we make sure it isn't going to maim or kill him and then that is the end of that. If something sucks, he tries to stop it from sucking and, if he can't, he doesn't whine about it. He questions everything... except the things that should not be questioned. If he wants something, he knows that he has to work for it... because no one is going to give it to him.
He knows that we expect him to serve his country. I hope that it is in the military but I accept that he will be his own man and may chose to earn his right to live in this great nation in some other manner. He knows that there is no call to service. He was lucky enough to be born here, of able mind and body and that is all the call he will need.
I chose to raise him hard. When the time comes for him to prove it, I will be satisified that I raised him with his eyes wide open and him knowing that the only thing he is entitled to is the opportunity to be the master of himself.
I don't say any of this because I think I'm father of the year. I am raising him the way I was raised and my father was raised. The common thread, IMO, is that he could be another in a long generation of warriors in my family and bloodline.
I honestly believe that this country would be a lot better off if, a la Heinlein, via Reaper, our youth knew that this country was theirs... but they had to earn it first.
x-factor
06-18-2007, 10:44
I think that to provide the same freedom of religion to faiths outside of Judeo Christianity is a bad thing. You should be free to be of whatever faith you choose, but not free to organizationally practice it within the borders of the US of A. Adios budhists, muslims, etc. "Diversity" begins there, and has a fragmenting effect on our people. The State should not go around locking up folks for being of this or that faith. But they should not endorse faiths OUTSIDE of judeo christianity with the same tax status, etc. These religions should be actively prevented - prohibited from building places of worship, advertising, prostelytizing, etc.
This is basically the Islamic extremist position (see the work of Sayyid Qutb), that personal religion is a choice between you and God, but the practice of religion in the material world is the purview of the state. Non-Muslims must live according to Koranic law, usually in contained communities, and pay the jiyza as a penalty for not converting.
Are you really comfortable advocating somekind of American Caliphate? As a Christian, do you think Jesus would be comfortable with it?
I'm not saying we don't have some cultural issues that need pounding out, but take a step back and think about what you're saying.
Are you really comfortable advocating somekind of American Caliphate?
Have you seen the PBS “Jihad in America” tapes showing Muslim clerics in various cities in this country preaching the overthrow of our government? I have. I also see where most of the turmoil in the world today is due to / related to Islamist in some shape form or fashion. Where are the Judeo / Christian terrorists today? By their actions I think they forfeit the freedoms we enjoy here. Lord forgive me for saying it but in my heart I must say F*#k em!!!! If Islam means that much to them – there is plenty enough real estate outside of our country to hold them. Good riddance!
x-factor
06-18-2007, 13:23
You're talking about two entirely different things. Dealing with the minority of Muslims actively engaged in anti-US movement is one thing, restricting the free practice of religion for all non-Judeo Christians is something entirely different.
Its ironic. We act as if Christian values are dying in America and then in the same breath we talk about a need for harsher measures in the GWOT. There's an inherent contradiction there. Our Christian values (mercy, sympathy, tolerance, and, maybe most importantly a deeply ingrained desire to restrict our violence to only the most just and necessary cases) are what make the GWOT difficult in the first place. If not for our Christian values, much of the Islamic world would be a smoking cinder by now.
Thats what makes us better than the people we hunt and its not a quality to be ashamed of or to cast aside easily. Guided by clear vision and tempered by common sense? Yes, but lets not forget about what it means to be a Christian in the first place.
Ret10Echo
06-18-2007, 13:34
X-
I am not interested in conversion (there are a couple of chapters in the Bible on that for those that are interested)
In Islam there is (in my observation) no separation between government, society and religion, so to prescribe to the idea that we can look at these items separately is a hard conversation to have. It presents a dilemma. If a rabid animal wanders the neighborhood I may become engaged despite my efforts. Should it seek me out to do me harm I believe I should react.....
Agree that OUR principles drive our agenda....but back to my rabid animal example...what then?
x-factor
06-18-2007, 14:22
You're on to a very important issue with key ramifications.
Christianity (especially Protestantism and double-especially American Christianity) is a religion about individual faith. Islam is a religion for the community. Living as part of group of like-minded individuals is very important to Muslims. There is no "render unto Caesar" line in the Koran establishing a defacto seperation of church and state. It is as much blueprint for government as it is anything else.
(This will jump out at any Christian who reads the Koran. The Koran in places reads alot like municipal case law: if I get a divorce, what do I owe my ex-wife? What if she finds a new husband? What if we have children? etc etc etc.)
Now, a lot of Muslims, especially in America, accept the necessity of a seperation between church and state. They view Shariah (Koranic law) much as we view the Sermon on the Mount, as a personal guide to behavoir and an inspiration for government and law, but as something that is impractical for man-made government to legislate and enforce in its totality.
Hence, you go to the grocery store in Fairfax, Virginia and there's a Muslim lady in a veil picking out cucumbers and minding her own business. This is the vast, vast, vast majority of American Muslims and its no more threatening to American life than the Amish or Hasidic Jews or any of the other non-mainstream religions in America.
This is also the way most moderate Muslim states operate. Being a bad Muslim and being a criminal don't have to be the same thing. (Incidentally, France is screwing itself by outlawing displays of faith altogether.)
Then you've got Salafists. They believe that the very notion of seperation of church and state is an abomination because it steals sovereignty from God. There's your rabid dog.
(Sorry for taking a roundabout way to your point.)
So the question is: what do we do with Salafists in America? First, we've got to seperate them from the rest of the Muslims in America. We do this through investigation and surveillance and, more importantly, by supporting the moderate Muslim majority who is probably even more scared of them than we are.
Once the rabid dogs are culled from the rest of the pack, I think we aggressively monitor them and pounce on them if they even sniff in the direction of conspiracy to violence. Basically treat them the same way we treat the White Supremacist movement: marginalize, monitor, and enforce existing laws. (This includes deporting non-citizens and revoking the citizenship of naturalized citizens.)
This might be useful to some. I found it on the net some time ago, and I can't remember where.
"At the time of Jesus, striking someone deemed to be of a lower class with the back of the hand was used to assert authority and dominance. If the persecuted person "turned the other cheek," the discipliner was faced with a dilemma. The left hand was used for unclean purposes, so a back-hand strike on the opposite cheek would not be performed. The other alternative would be a slap with the open hand as a challenge or to punch the person, but this was seen as a statement of equality. Thus, by turning the other cheek the persecuted was in effect demanding equality."
Peregrino
06-18-2007, 14:29
I have as little desire for an "American Inquisition" as I do for an "American Caliphate". Liberal perversions not withstanding (Atheism is a religion too!) there are excellent reasons the 1st Amendment forbids the establishment of a state religion. That includes declaring Judeo-Christian beliefs "the one true ordained by God only belief system allowed in this country religion." The Founding Fathers understood the perils of thought control far better than the current batch of conservative demagogues decrying the “moral decay” of America. If you have problems with Imams preaching the overthrow of America from their pulpits in this country, find a Federal Prosecutor willing to charge and try them for treason and sedition. Those are crimes. So is establishing a State Religion. Thank God and the Founding Fathers.
Now to get this thread back on track. The decline in the “warrior spirit” is part of a natural cycle. As a practical matter it’s impossible to “return to the ancient values.” If you want a renaissance you get there by moving forward. Just remember – the decadence of late Rome (Analogous to modern America? Are our service members the “thin green line” standing on Hadrian’s wall while Rome burns?) was followed by the (relative) anarchy of the Dark Ages. It took most of 1000 years for societal conditions to advanced enough to allow a resurgence of “the finer things in life.” Who wants to volunteer to be Harry Seldon? :munchin
Peregrino
x-factor
06-18-2007, 14:38
lol
I knew I recognized the name Harry Seldon, but I had to google it to remember what it was. Good call. :D
Peregrino,
I felt that the environment in which our people are created is directly related to whether or not warrior spirit is in decline. A large part of that creation is what kind of philosophy our people are indoctirnated with. I believe we are all indoctrinated with beliefs as we grow, that it is a normal part of upbringing, of life. Indoctrinations give us our core ideas.
Those core ideas learned applied to real life experience create our character. I think you cannot maneuver around a discussion about one's spirit without discussing his character and what created it. I'd like to reply to the 'American Caliphate' comment if it's okay?
Peregrino
06-18-2007, 15:43
NG M4 Shooter - Don't stray too far - this isn't about religion except as it forms a basis for character development. I'll post more tonight. Peregrino
You should be free to be of whatever faith you choose, but not free to organizationally practice it within the borders of the US of A. Adios budhists, muslims, etc. "Diversity" begins there, and has a fragmenting effect on our people. The State should not go around locking up folks for being of this or that faith. But they should not endorse faiths OUTSIDE of judeo christianity with the same tax status, etc. These religions should be actively prevented - prohibited from building places of worship, advertising, prostelytizing, etc.
As I said, anyone should be free to be of whatever faith they wish.
This is a way in my (limited, un-frozen caveman) mind to preserve a culture, the will to fight, the desire to win, to tell the truth, to shoot straight, to speak plainly, to call a spade a spade, to make men of character. I realize that some of what I've said is in opposition of the bill of rights. My ideas are drastic measures that will not be implemented in todays society. It's difficult to speak freely about "one common culture, one people, one America" without becoming suspected/labeled a racist nazi fascist xenophobe or worse, rather than someone madly in love with his country and her potential.
The warrior spirit ~ the will to fight is in decline. And NOT because we are moving towards a more enlightened state of mankind.
I have to ask why it is in decline, and what can be done about it. When I see our people are trying to stamp out the idea that violence of any kind can be good, that smashing one civilization in the interest of preserving your own is reprehensible, that attacking a sitting president during war time is good, I think these are symptoms and signs of that decline. We push the belief that all disagreements ought to be investigated by lawr enforcement :p and settled in a court of law (or pop opinion). All of these things, these modern day ills, are obvious. What is not obvious, what eludes us all, brothers is this:
How do we turn it around?
Given the current (enemy;) ) situation. How do we turn this around? What actions will effectively restore or preserve the "warrior spirit?"
If less than 1% of our people are the military, the law enforcement, what percentage of that 1% are trigger pullers? Guys & gals who will fight even when they don't have to, but do so because it's right. How do we cultivate that character given the parameters of this modern (diverse) America?
The Reaper
06-18-2007, 16:29
To paraphrase an old quote, "When I hear the word 'diversity', I reach for my pistol."
I feel your pain NG_M4_Shooter,but the Bill of Rights is inviolable except in extreme and immediate national emergencies.
You cannot proscribe religious beliefs, but IMHO, if you are treasonous or seditious, you should be deported (not incarcerated).
TR
IMO the following are the reasons of weakening of the American will/warrior spirit:
1) Demographic shift from a rural and blue collar working force to a service based white collar working force. Not that such a trend cannot be countered, but that means schools and colleges need more physical activities for the average student, education that still requires some physical work (shop, building stuff, etc). Doing labor intensive activities is a part of the learning experience.
2) Baby boomers: Most of the issues we are currently facing have risen primarily during this generation's time. Socialist concepts and basic ideas that are not realistic (the kumbaya attitude). Also, this generation is primarily responsible for enforcing our laws and looked the other way (immigration, mismanagement of government coffers, etc).
3) I don't think religion is the main issue here. Most coming to the United States illegally are Christian, yet they do not follow our laws. My family is Hindu, yet we've done everything by the book. How my family decided to observe religion had no impact on the rules of the land, nor fellow Americans. There are several 'levels' of communities. But as long as one interacts with them all (relgious, cultural, ethinic, racial) and follows our laws, we're ok.
4) An overall apathy in society that comes from wealth and success. We're spoilt. I think one of the reasons why traveling (personal or as a part of one's job) is imporant because it exposes the individual to how good we have it. We really do. But most Americans (and it goes back to education) are ignorant of this. Combine it with socialist attitudes, the individual hard work concpet gets flushed down.
I'd like to add that the United States does not have the same immigration model as European states do. Those countries mandated top down diversity and those that immigrated were never really integrated in society (due to the welfare state) and Xenophobic laws (harder to earn citizenship). Nothing like hard work and economic participation to bring people in the fold. If those conditions do not exist (which in the USA's history it has), people don't integrate well. It takes a few generations, but our demographic history is dynamic, with different people flowing in over time. The face of the country has been in constant flux. Our darkest time internally as a republic was the civil war. The USA has never been a homogenous society, nor will it ever be (Practically speaking) While our immigration model is being challenged because we stopped enforcing our laws, when actually enforced, has a proven track record.
It isn't the end of the USA nor the world. The pendulum swings back and forth. Democratic societies are slower in decision making due to consensus building, but in the long run, the extremes of the cycle are dampned. I guess I'm a guarded optimist.
Roguish Lawyer
06-18-2007, 17:02
You cannot proscribe religious beliefs, but IMHO, if you are treasonous or seditious, you should be deported (not incarcerated).
I believe that treason should be punishable by death. Sedition isn't illegal in this country, is it?
x-factor
06-18-2007, 17:09
The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 were never challenged in the Supreme Court, they just expired. Their constitutionality is still in question.
EDIT: Changed slightly after a little research.
TR Sir,
What about "deported to foreign prisons to be incarcerated." :D We could contract prisons in China to house Mexican nationals that commit crimes here, then deport them on their release.
Surgicalcric
06-18-2007, 19:41
Finally, I think the day we started labeling ourselves as anything hyphenated Americans was the day that we started down the drain. We are Americans first, and anything else remotely second...
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Had a SERE instructor who said, "enough with all these hyphenated identities. If you can sing the national anthem for it then you can put it down, otherwise it better say AMERICAN."
I believe he was onto something...
Crip
+1
Edited by Razor: Ahem. What the good Sergeant meant to type was "I agree with the last post".
Sorry for this post, feel free to delete, as it doesnt add much to the discussion. Sorry.
NousDefionsDoc
06-18-2007, 21:02
Now to get this thread back on track. The decline in the “warrior spirit” is part of a natural cycle. As a practical matter it’s impossible to “return to the ancient values.” If you want a renaissance you get there by moving forward. Just remember – the decadence of late Rome (Analogous to modern America? Are our service members the “thin green line” standing on Hadrian’s wall while Rome burns?) was followed by the (relative) anarchy of the Dark Ages. It took most of 1000 years for societal conditions to advanced enough to allow a resurgence of “the finer things in life.” Who wants to volunteer to be Harry Seldon?
Interesting thoughts. But...allow me to offer you this: When one is dealing with an entity as large and diverse as the Roman Empire or the US, the cycle is not pervasive or inevitable. The question then becomes, "Which will lead?"
Peregrino
06-18-2007, 21:57
NDD - Some days the nihilistic urges seem overwhelming (then I look at the raw materials any "brave new world" would have to work with :p ). Until right/good vs. wrong/evil displaces the current moral relativism trends I don't see our culture surviving, let alone returning to the values we are lamenting the loss of. I do believe it's a natural cycle, one that we've alluded to in previous threads. As societies mature, the traits that lead to their ascendancy lose value because the populace is removed from the initial struggles to exist. Losers (liberals) survive and multiply because better men (and women) created the conditions that allow non-productive consumers to flourish. When consumers reach critical mass, society morphs to mirror the values of the dominant culture and assumes traits that it couldn't afford previously if it were to achieve success. Once those traits essential to the creation/survival/ascendancy decline sufficiently, another more vital culture will supplant the first as its internal decay reaches terminal velocity. Success brings with it the seeds of its own destruction. (Look at the ratio of farmers to eaters - compare with the ratio of sheepdogs to sheep.) See Arnold J. Toynbee for the full dissertation. (I give him more credit than his peers did - personally I think he gored some sacred cows of his time but now events are lending support to his arguments.) To get beyond what we're observing today will require addressing a movement that's been underway since the 1890s (European Socialism starting with Marx/Engles). Talk about serendipity, a friend sent me the following link today: http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0102/0102frankfortschool.htm. I think most will agree, it has bearing on our current discussion.
Food for thought. :munchin Peregrino
Roguish Lawyer
06-19-2007, 08:46
Has anyone read The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers by Paul Kennedy?
RL,
Nope. Is it a description of a cycle of how these societies rise and fall?
I read the link that Peregrino posted. Would you say that we've got a pretty good handle on how things go bad, what is bad, what we don't like about it, etc.?
I think the real question is how do we protect (develop) the warrior spirit? Peregrino's link says it better than an un frozen caveman could. These articles, (at least for me) and books from Buchanan and others, build up the ire, and generally just piss me off - and I think it should piss you off if you give a rats behind. It's as though we're like a bunch of old men, sitting on a porch, lamenting the ills of our America, pointing to the causes. What then are the solutions?
Being Prepared.
Knowing the difficulty ahead, but not knowing the schedule, the best thing people can do is prepare their kids, and foster the growth of a warrior spirit within them. The best ways to foster such a spirit are not something I am a master of. I read what I think might have some tips, hints, etc. but there isn't a book out there titled "How to grow a warrior spirit in your American children" .... yet.
In my humble opinion, the lack of a "warrior spirit" within our culture or society is much, much, much more directly related to our "comfort level " than to the practice of a sole religion, a unified value system, or any other factor.
Simply put, we will not see a "call to arms" among the American populace so long as individuals are able to go about their lives in relative safety and comfort. The average American citizen has seen little to no change in their daily routine since 09.11 or the invasion of Iraq........ he can still travel freely, shop without fear, and has no more concern about his personal safety or maintenance of his way of life than he did pre 09.11...... The outcome of the war in Iraq is of little or no concern to him (unless he has a loved one there), as he does not see how it will affect his day to day routine..... from his perspective, there is no reason to change the way that he goes about his life.
This perspective was reinforced by the Administration post 09.11...... we were not encouraged to make sacrifices, conserve oil, buy war bonds, or anything of the like...... we were told to keep shopping.... consume....... it is the American way.
You want to see the return of the warrior spirit? Wait until AQ starts randomly shooting up shopping malls, schools, or daycare centers. Wait until a bomb or two is set off in a Starbucks ....... see what happens once the American public has real reason to fear for it's immediate safety, and can no longer feel safe going to the grocery store or dropping their kid off at school...... wait until that level of comfort is compromised, and people are too afraid to shop or go out to eat.
Then you will see a change.... a call to arms... the return of the "warrior," since (at that point) it will be a matter of survival.
We often compare our society to ancient ones where death at the hand of an invading horde or army was a daily concern........ that's an unfair comparison, IMO. We don't live with that threat, and have therefore become "comfortable," just as those societies would have in our current situation. I don't know that the level of intensity of which we are speaking is sustainable (in the absence of an immediate, highly visible threat) at the societal level for long periods of time.......
Personally, I hope that we never have to resort to being a society comprised solely of warriors, as it would mean that things had gone to hell in a handbasket in our country.
In closing, I honestly see the biggest threat to our way of life coming from those in this country who would trade our freedoms and rights for the perception of "security" or "a unified front." The views of those such as NG M4 Shooter (that there should be state restritions limiting religious freedom --- even to the point of restricting Catholicism and Judaism) would become much, much more widespread should the terrorists actually begin striking targets in the US...... people, overcome by fear, would trade their souls for any measure that they thought might make them safer, or at least make them feel that way.... freedom of religion, speech, peaceful assembly, or even the option to dissent would be seen as "Anti-American" or a threat..... and would be wisked away in the name of "security."
That "knee jerk" reaction, in my opinion, would bring about the end of our way of life faster than any dirty bomb ever could......
And I am not picking on you, NG M4, nor is it an attack, I am just using your position as an example since it fits.
Anyway, thats my .02.
Ret10Echo
06-19-2007, 13:00
How about this....four letter word inbound...
WORK
The lack of a work ethic. Parents desire to provide for their children does in fact present an issue. I want to provide the very best for my child, but should that be done at the expense of their future performance and potential? Have we set up our children for failure...are they prepared to quit at the first sign of difficulty or will they put their head down and get done that which needs to get done?
The path to becoming a warrior, or having that warrior spirit I believe is created through an internal drive for excellance. That requires work, sweat and blood to perform at the peak for an indefinite amount of time. As a society we have begun to celebrate mediocrity. Children get embarassed if they do well in school...No child gets ahead...everyone makes the team...etc etc.
Where that motivation for excellance comes from can vary greatly. In my case it is because of my faith and the idea that everything I do should be at the utmost of my ability because of the God I serve. For others there needs to be some other driving force. We are slowly removing those things that motivate those to strive to perfect their performance by society telling them that "Everyone is a winner" and "you deserve"....
This is probably the wrong table to sit around and have this discussion. IMO QPs work to this end in how they bring up their kids. How to spread the ideal is tough conisdering the cool-aide distribution system that we are surrounded by.
:munchin
3SoldierDad
06-19-2007, 14:38
RL,
It's as though we're like a bunch of old men, sitting on a porch, lamenting the ills of our America, pointing to the causes. What then are the solutions?
We can't change society, we can only deal with ourselves - with myself. Healing America's failures and ills is beyond any of us. However, a good beginning (the only beginning) is to start with ourselves - with myself. When we stand before the Creator of the Universe, we'll give an account of our lives - my life - We'll not give an account for others who ran and lost their races. We'll be held to account for what we did with our lives on this planet.
We need to personally run - And, we need to run to win.
The enemy is our own flesh.
Three Soldier Dad - Chuck
Sorry, I just don't share the pessimism. I live in one of the most affluent suburbs in the US (buy low, sell high -- I got in early ;) ) and the kids around here are hard working, polite, and patriotic. When my daughter graduated, she was MC, gave the speech, etc. and the very first thing in the ceremony was the pledge and the second was an introduction of the six young men joining the armed forces. They received thunderous applause.
I will agree a decent PT regimen could help quite a few.
x-factor
06-19-2007, 16:13
A couple thoughts...
- The hard work argument doesn't hold water. Studies show that American workers are at or near the top when it comes to productivity per man and American children have more homework and AP courses than ever before and remain hyper-competitive and sports-obsessed. Militarily speaking the individual soldier is shouldering more responsibility and capability than ever before.
- I agree with NDD that history is not necessarily cyclical. We could just as easily be in a Star Trek-like utopia in a hundred years as some kind of neo-fuedal Thunderdome dystopia.
- I keep hearing liberal = moral relativist, but I don't buy that one either. They may not see the utility in violence means for moral ends, they may have an unrealistic grasp on man's basic nature, they may be overly introspective and slow to act, and they may be unfair or inconsistent in their judgements, but none of those is moral relativism.
- As others have said, if the warrior spirit is fading (and I think Kaplan overstates the case), its because the leadership has done such a poor job in articulating a call and a plan for action. By and large, American society isn't afraid of bloodshed and it is not afraid of sacrifice, but it LOATHES waste (whether from corruption or incompetence). There's a certain percentage of the "out of Iraq" movement that is just emotionally deluded and there's just no dealing with them, but the vast majority, I think, are more disillusioned with the situation. They see it as a failing/failed investment and just aren't comfortable investing anymore resources. Its the leadership's (on all sides, not just the President's) responsibility to deliver a sense of purpose to the nation to justify the cost and they just haven't.
Roguish Lawyer
06-19-2007, 16:24
I agree that the Administration has totally bungled its communications with the American People regarding why we are at war.
Then you will see a change.... a call to arms... the return of the "warrior," since (at that point) it will be a matter of survival.
More like this, there will be finger pointing. Blaming past and present administrations. A call for investigations. Blaming the War in Iraq. Blaming everyone but the people responsible.
Every possible solution will be given to prevent it from happening again. Except a response from us so unexpected and devastating. That the consequences of supporting Muslim Extremist. Is far worse then the fight they will have eradicating Muslim Extremism. In their own Back Yard.
The Reaper
06-19-2007, 17:00
I am noticing a trend here by people who have never served in the military to comment om what they perceive to be the effectiveness or lack thereof of the current force.
While we may read extensively and study the subject intently, I would submit that those who have not interacted with military troops across a fairly broad span of time, encompassing at least a couple of generations may not be qualified to comment on the difference.
I am not an expert but my observations of the military personnel I have encountered from 1975 to today lead me to believe that we have a group of kids today who are by and large unfamiliar with responsibility, discipline, authority, and service, particularly in comparison with their predecessors. More kids seem all too eager to ask why, or to seek reasons to not comply with instructions.
We may have an improved methodology for training that requires less physical motivation, but it appears to me that we are failing to prepare today's troops for the realities of service and combat.
On the home front, I ask myself if people in the States during WW II concerned themselves with how enemy personnel were treated, and eagerly absorbed every conspiracy story about the troops not having the best gear, or if they merely focused on making whatever contribution they could to the war effort?
The media seems to be among the worst at looking for problems and under reporting our successes. I see few, if any Ernie Pyle's out there in the MSM today. Since the average American has no direct link to the military, or anyone in it, they absorb the opinions and bad news being reported by the MSM as the truth, and believe it to be an accurate generalization about the war. Look at the chatter about the Dragon Skin armor, even after the facts were out there for anyone who would open their eyes and read them. People assumed the worst, refused to read or consider the facts being presented, and parrotted the flawed story the media pimps like NBC fed them. Where do these sheeple come from?
Just my .02, but I see a difference, even in our all volunteer force.
TR
3SoldierDad
06-19-2007, 17:54
We can't change society, we can only deal with ourselves - with myself. Healing America's failures and ills is beyond all of us. However, a good beginning (the only beginning) is to start with ourselves - with myself. When we stand before the Creator of the Universe, we'll give an account of our lives - my life - We'll not give an account for others who ran and lost their races. We'll be held to account for what we did with our lives on this planet.
We need to personally run - And, we need to run to win.
The enemy is our own flesh.
Three Soldier Dad - Chuck
I don't want to be guilty of platitudes...
The best way to ensure that America's Warrior Ethos stays vibrant or at least fades less fast is to practice being a Warrior in our personal lives.
What does that mean...? Some possibilities follow...
Fight for what you believe - in words and actions - fight. Get beyond the symbols - do things. Make a list and check off all your boxes. You might say that all of us are involved in the Creator's Cosmic SFAS - Selection and Assessment for eternity - As the Apostle Paul says, "Run in such a way that you might win...lest you be disqualified." I think he's talking about the victory prize - of an abundant life - both here and in the next life. Whatever he's talking about - I don't want to miss it.
On another thread one of the Quiet Professionals was talking about a REALLY bad terrorist - So bad that he said half-joking that he might come out of retirement to hunt down the man. Please do! -- PLEASE! Remember Billy Waugh in his 70s! This is my opinion - You men should NEVER retire - never as in never-ever. Never! There are too many wrongs to be righted. Your experience is a national treasure...You're 50 now - So what? You're not old - You're good - The glory of a young man is his strength; the glory of an old man is his gray hair - I'll take wisdom over strength any freak'n day. Like a scholar or a pastor a QP is not done until he is stiff and at room temperature.
Adopt a child...Adopt a third-world city...dig a well...Get involved in foreign relief...home school your kids...become a part-time teacher...become a big brother to an inner city kid who doesn't have a Dad...stop for the guy with the flat tire.
Commit to make your marriage better...to be a better next door neighbor to those quiet folks across the street who never come out of their house...lead a boyscout troop....write your local paper on the injustices you see...mentor an athlete and train him.
Get your wife involved with some young single Moms....be a buddy to your church's pastor...help him do some things around his house. Give your sister a call and encourage her. Go hang out with your Dad and just watch some television with him or relate to him what's going on in your world.
Choose a cause where you have a core competancy and pick the most deprived place in the world to apply it and travel there once a year - medical, water, food, education, criminal justice, credit, housing...Make sacrifices - do it until it hurts, until it cramps your comfort - until it is inconvenient.
Apply your Warrior skills to fight the good fight; to help your fellow man. Realize that the Author of our celestial drama has put us here "under deployment."
All of us are soldiers engaged in The Genuine Long War.
The solutions are all around us...
Three Soldier Dad....Chuck
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I am noticing a trend here by people who have never served in the military to comment om what they perceive to be the effectiveness of lack thereof of the current force.
TR
My post was in no way a commentary on the effectiveness of the military forces, or upon the mindset of service members.
The post was merely was my opinion on what would need to occur in order for the average (civilian) citizen to fully get behind and support a long term military effort, and to change his mindest from that of "consumer" to "survivor."
Just a clarification.
3 Soldier Dad,
Thanks for the fatherly encouragement. :D Much appreciated.
TR,
In 18 years I never had another Soldier threaten me, then in year 19 in Japan when smoking the crap out of one (previously drunk) private (but at that time severly hung over) who decided it would be a good idea to piss all over the C bag of one of his squad mates before it went into the connex for a month on board a ship, he thought it would be a good idea to threaten me and my family. He is not in the Natinal Guard anymore.
But I do notice a lot of the new Soldiers will do as you described earlier, when I recall that as a private in my infantry battalion, we didn't even want to talk to an E-6 for fear of a good smoking. It's not like that now, that can be good and bad. Familiarity breeds contempt.
MDB23
I don’t feel attacked or picked on, so roll on brother. No worries, you have to be thick skinned or thick skulled to be me.
A unified spirit in support of the combat actions of American Warriors, ala the greatest generation would be very much appreciated. There is little unity among the people, instead I see mostly deviance, diversity, dissent, and discord. Your second paragraph accurately describes many Americans. Next paragraph, Administrations come and go, they all make mistakes and have successes. I do think he said in the beginning that this would be a long war or struggle; where he erred, is when he didn’t come out and repeat that statement every single day unto the sheeple.
It’s not comfort per se… but security that the American public enjoys. I think NDD did a good job of talking about what it means to have a warrior spirit in the “Mindset” thread. I don’t equate a populace getting its dander up, and arming itself as the return of the warrior spirit. Arms don’t make the spirit. Whatever people do when they are threatened, would be the spirit of survival, and not necessarily the warrior spirit. Instead they are actions in response to a situation, not a way of life. Don’t you think?
Because the sheeple do not perceive a threat, makes it no less real. 3 people illegally entered the United States via mexico, then prepared to commit terrorist acts on Ft. Dix. If X number of people enter illegally each day, and at least 3 of them are terrorists, how many are here that have not acted yet? Law Enforcement does not catch 100% of bad guys 100% of the time. When they do catch them, it is often after the fact. But in order to eliminate a domestic threat, you must succeed 100% of the time, Johnny AQ only has to succeed 1% of the time to be successful. They are here among us, but they aren’t stupid, they are quite intelligent, well funded, and very familiar with Americans.
I don’t wish a society solely of warriors either. Society, wishes a military similar to itself ~ litigious, petty, inclusive, fair; rather than what a military should be: a deterrent via wrath which is terror incarnate, professional, disciplined, skilled, and adept at snuffing the life out of those who have it coming, without a review of the tactical players as to how and why they did so. The military should not be risk averse, they should openly say something like; "We kill our nations enemies, sometimes with our bare hands, at extreme risk to life and limb" not "Army Strong." People need to know that's what the military does, they don't need to know specific how to's, but they must accept that their own existence depends very much on the "violence" they have no tolerance for.
I would like to see a society which values the young people who possess those warrior traits, rather than actively trying to extinguish any trace of a “warrior spirit” within them. I’d like society to be completely supportive of the environment to instill the “warrior spirit” in those kids inclined to live by it, and encourage them in their pursuit of it. Not a society of nervous-nelly nambies running about because Jonny wants to go shooting, owns firearms, likes to hunt, has a proclivity for climbing trees, playing with fire, or blowing things up. I think shooting clubs should be in schools, as well as boxing, MMA, and other similar clubs.
(One last time, I promise.) To clarify my posts, Judeo Christianity includes Judaism and Catholicism. I did not say “No jews and catholics.” I never suggested, hinted at, or intended restricting the practice of these. In fact anyone should be free to be whatever he wishes, just not free to practice non Judeo Christian faiths in a tax exempt organization with a facility or building in an organized manner, or create fundraising or charity organizations affiliated with other religions or international causes. I am not suggesting internment camps, or putting the habeus grabus on anyone for praying to whatever divinity they please.
Next. Presidents have sent Indians packing, even after the supreme court ruled in favor of the Cherokees. I don’t think the Cherokees are getting the Carolinas back anytime soon. If so, I get to pick a spot to call my own. My point is that the bill of rights gets set aside from time to time, depending on the interest of government. All of the flowerly language that we have this or that right, often gets set aside or ignored when it is convenient. We've stripped rights away from our own people before when it has been convenient or necessarry. I wouldnt be surprised to see it happen again. One man's exigency is another man's conspiracy.
On Dissent. The actions of some go way beyond mere “dissent.” It’s trendy to aid and abet the causes of our enemies. Suing Jeppsen because they provide flight following services to the CIA, is more than “dissent,” especially when the CIA is using their planes to move bad actors from point a to point b, as part of an effort during time of war to gain intelligence about threats to our nation. There are numerous other examples of behavior that “dissent” could never encompass in a description of. It's treasonous, and should be prosecuted. Dissent is "I vote no." Not, "I want to make a movie about killing the president."
x-factor
06-20-2007, 15:42
I am not an expert but my observations of the military personnel I have encountered from 1975 to today lead me to believe that we have a group of kids today who are by and large unfamiliar with responsibility, discipline, authority, and service, particularly in comparison with their predecessors. More kids seem all too eager to ask why, or to seek reasons to not comply with instructions.
I think this is a very interesting observation, probably worthy of a seperate thread. But my judgement on starting new threads has two strikes to its credit, so I'll stay here and let one of the admins break it out if they agree. ;)
TR - You hint at some qualities/differences that I've seen referred to in several different studies comparing the Baby Boom generation to Gen X and Y in the workplace. (Note, none of those have the added element of extreme physical stress that is present only in the military. So its an interesting but not perfect comparison.)
For example, as you alluded to, Gen X/Yers are widely considered to be much more apt to question the status quo and to be impatient/distrustful/dismissive with heirarchy and bureaucracy. (Theories on this include the fact that much of the generation were children of divorce and that we saw so many of our parents lose long held jobs and even careers late in life.)
I'm curious if you see any upside to the post-Baby Boomer generations? Any qualities they have that make them better potential soldiers than the ones you saw enter in 1975?
The Reaper
06-20-2007, 15:52
I think this is a very interesting observation, probably worthy of a seperate thread. But my judgement on starting new threads has two strikes to its credit, so I'll stay here and let one of the admins break it out if they agree. ;)
TR - You hint at some qualities/differences that I've seen referred to in several different studies comparing the Baby Boom generation to Gen X and Y in the workplace. (Note, none of those have the added element of extreme physical stress that is present only in the military. So its an interesting but not perfect comparison.)
For example, as you alluded to, Gen X/Yers are widely considered to be much more apt to question the status quo and to be impatient/distrustful/dismissive with heirarchy and bureaucracy. (Theories on this include the fact that much of the generation were children of divorce and that we saw so many of our parents lose long held jobs and even careers late in life.)
I'm curious if you see any upside to the post-Baby Boomer generations? Any qualities they have that make them better potential soldiers than the ones you saw enter in 1975?
1. All volunteers. We are a nation at war and every enlistee joins regardless.
2. Smarter and more tech savvy.
3. Fewer with overt drug and alcohol abuse problems.
4. Fewer smokers.
TR
x-factor
06-20-2007, 16:07
Interesting. I'm I reading you right that you would say that today's recruits are healthier in terms of long-term potential, but softer in terms of their physical state at the time of induction?
Would you say the authority-issue has any upside? Does being less accepting of authority also makes them more creative problem solvers, more flexible thinkers? If so, does this make the current generation more suited to unconventional warfare?
(Also, just to note, because "tone" can sometimes get garbled on the net. I'm asking in complete earnest, not trying to bait you or anything like that.)
Roguish Lawyer
06-20-2007, 16:51
Interesting. I'm I reading you right that you would say that today's recruits are healthier in terms of long-term potential, but softer in terms of their physical state at the time of induction?
Would you say the authority-issue has any upside? Does being less accepting of authority also makes them more creative problem solvers, more flexible thinkers? If so, does this make the current generation more suited to unconventional warfare?
(Also, just to note, because "tone" can sometimes get garbled on the net. I'm asking in complete earnest, not trying to bait you or anything like that.)
I think these are good questions. I don't think they apply only to the military either -- it's a generational problem reaching all sectors of society.
The young lawyers I deal with (coming from the top of their classes at top law schools) probably are psychologically better adjusted than their predecessors (i.e., they are in touch with their feelings, they like to smell flowers, etc.), but at the cost of being more lazy, careless and soft. They (generally) don't take as much pride in their work and they don't care as much about winning. It drives me freaking nuts.
3SoldierDad
06-20-2007, 17:02
Interesting. I'm I reading you right that you would say that today's recruits are healthier in terms of long-term potential, but softer in terms of their physical state at the time of induction?
Would you say the authority-issue has any upside? Does being less accepting of authority also makes them more creative problem solvers, more flexible thinkers? If so, does this make the current generation more suited to unconventional warfare?
(Also, just to note, because "tone" can sometimes get garbled on the net. I'm asking in complete earnest, not trying to bait you or anything like that.)
Just a thought...
Potentially our best Warriors in American history will begin to evidence themselves at or around the year 2012. Why? They will be guys that are in SF Groups and other regular Army units who...
A. Are being trained now by men who have had several years of combat experience themselves.
B. And, in five years these men who have been trained by men who have had years of combat experience will have had years of combat experience themselves.
In most other wars up until now, maybe all of them thus far, when the trainers had combat experience the men they were training were not going into a conflict - cause the experienced men just won their war...Juxtaposed in other times against men who were going into a conflict, but they were being trained generally by those who hadn't had a lot of combat experience due to a peace time Army.
If experience is the best teacher - Mark Twain said he "Never let school get in the way of his education." - ten years of war experience should make our soldiers possibily the best Warrriors that this nation has ever fielded.
Actually Iraq has a silver lining - That upside is the USA will be the one nation in the world, perhaps besides Israel - the only nation that will have a core competancy at fighting a 4th Generation War (as Col. Thomas X. Hammes USMC calls it) - A core competancy in fighting a high-tech counterinsurgency. This is actually a valuable benefit from our current war. If we are in The Long War - Iraq is a battle that is sharpening us for the war.
Just a perspective...
Three Soldier Dad...Chuck
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