View Full Version : Muslim Family Values?
Yeah we in the west need to be more open to this type of child rearing. You know this is happening in the US too but strangely not reported as much.
Father in 'honor killing' found guilty of murder (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19176808/?GT1=10056)
Brit ordered his daughter strangled for falling in love with wrong man
AP Updated: 6:01 p.m. ET June 11, 2007
LONDON - A father who ordered his daughter brutally slain for falling in love with the wrong man in a so-called “honor killing” was found guilty of murder on Monday.
Banaz Mahmod, 20, was strangled with a boot lace, stuffed into a suitcase and buried in a back garden.
Her death is the latest in an increasing trend of such killings in Britain, home to some 1.8 million Muslims. More than 100 homicides are under investigation as potential “honor killings.”
Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari Mahmod, 51, planned the killing during a family meeting, prosecutors told the court. Two others have pleaded guilty in the case. Two more suspects have fled the country. Sentencing is expected later this month.
The men accused the young woman of shaming her family by ending an abusive arranged marriage, becoming too Westernized and falling in love with a man who didn’t come from their Iraqi village. The Kurdish family came to Britain in 1998 when Banaz Mahmod was 11.
“She was my present, my future, my hope,” said Rahmat Suleimani, 29, Banaz Mahmod’s boyfriend.
During the three-month trial, prosecutors said Mahmod’s father beat his daughter for using hairspray and adopting other Western ways. Her uncle once told her she would have been “turned to ashes” if she were his daughter and had shamed the family by becoming involved with the Iranian Kurd, her sister 22-year-old Bekhal Mahmod testified.
Banaz Mahmod ran away from home when she was a teenager but returned when her father sent her an audio tape in which he warned he would kill her sisters, her mother and himself if she did not come home, her sister said.
Sister fearful of her own life
She was later hospitalized after her brother attacked her, the sister told the court. The brother said he had been paid by their father to finish her off but in the end was unable to do it, said the sister, who testified in a full black burqa. She said she still feared for her own life.
The years of Banaz Mahmod’s abuse were compounded by police officers who repeatedly dismissed her cries for help.
She first went to police in December 2005, saying she suspected her uncle was trying to kill her and her boyfriend. She sent police a letter naming the men who she thought would later kill her.
On New Year’s Eve, she was lured by her father to her grandmother’s home, where she suspected he planned to attack her after he forced her to gulp down brandy and approached her while wearing gloves. She escaped by breaking a window and was treated at a hospital.
Police dismissed her suspicions, and one officer, who is under investigation, considered charging her with damages for breaking her grandmother’s window.
Laying in her hospital bed after the escape, Mahmod recorded a dramatic video message saying she was “really scared.”
The videotape, taken by her boyfriend at the hospital, was shown to the jury during the trial.
Woman told family she wasn't seeing boyfriend
After she was released from the hospital, she returned home and tried to convince her family she had stopped seeing her boyfriend.
But friends told the family they spotted the couple together on Jan. 22, 2006.
Soon after, a group of men allegedly approached her boyfriend and tried to lure him into a car but he refused. It was that event that prompted Banaz Mahmod to go to police again. This time officers tried to persuade her to stay in a safe house. She refused, believing that her mother would protect her.
But her mother and father left her alone in the house the next day. Her boyfriend alerted police after time passed in which she failed to send him text messages.
Her body wasn’t discovered until three months later after police tracked phone records.
Britain has seen more than 25 women killed by their Muslim relatives in the past decade for offenses they believed brought shame on the family. More than 100 other homicides are under investigation as potential honor killings.
Some Muslim communities in Britain practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law.
“We’re seeing an increase around the world, due in part to the rise in Islamic fundamentalism,” said Diana Nammi with the London-based Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organization.
What a disgusting event. The father, uncle, and brother of this woman are not men, but cowards.
Holly
Goggles Pizano
06-12-2007, 06:59
But, but, Islam is the religion of peace...right?
NOT!
incommin
06-12-2007, 07:16
They think they are a peaceful religion. The problem is they are 800 years behind modern cultures and do not want to change.
Jim
Historically, honor killings have happened in conservative religious communities (atleast I remember some cases from conservative Hindu communities). Bottom line, in communities where women are viewed as subservient, they will always be prone to abuse. Muktar Mai case in Pakistan was one of an 'honor rape' where she was assaulted because her brother's alleged affair with someone's daughter. Disgusting.
From what I know, a strong segment of the British immigrant muslim population comes from the ultra conservative deobandi sunnis from South Asia (not in this case though). The demographic is far more labor oriented and hold very traditional views. I'll be optimistic and say I don't think this is going on here due to the different demographic makeup of our population. If that recent study is to be believed, one wouldn't have to worry about older parents doing this to their children, rather the youth that is at risk of following fundamentalism.
The west must continually push to ensure these abuses (including honor rapes, stoning women, throwing acid on women's faces disfiguring them, families punishing brides for dowry payments, etc) do not continue.
They think they are a peaceful religion. The problem is they are 800 years behind modern cultures and do not want to change.
Jim
Very controlling, and not very peaceful.
"I'll be optimistic and say I don't think this is going on here due to the different demographic makeup of our population."
"The west must continually push to ensure these abuses (including honor rapes, stoning women, throwing acid on women's faces disfiguring them, families punishing brides for dowry payments, etc) do not continue."
The abuses against women in the U.S. do take place, everyday.
Even here in the midwest, when walking in to a grocery store or mall, I see muslim women covered with the black robes, walking three paces behind their man.
Custom obviously, but sometimes I just want to say to that man, hey look! You are in America!!! Cut the crap. :confused:
Holly
Custom obviously, but sometimes I just want to say to that man, hey look! You are in America!!! Cut the crap. :confused:
Holly
Well said Holly. Makes you wonder if "those" men have such low self esteem, that they have to treat their women that way to nourish their egos.
incommin
06-12-2007, 10:47
It is not just the Muslim religion or society. I once had a team member at 10th Grp (FT Devens) who was married to a Cambodian girl. He made her walk behind him, ride in the back seat, get his meals...... my wife and I liked her more than we liked him...and then my daughter married a second generation Mex-American from McAllen Texas. She got some of the same treatment for a while until I put a boot up his ass and threatened to break both his knees. Male dominated societies are everywhere.....
Jim
The abuses against women in the U.S. do take place, everyday.
Even here in the midwest, when walking in to a grocery store or mall, I see muslim women covered with the black robes, walking three paces behind their man.
Custom obviously, but sometimes I just want to say to that man, hey look! You are in America!!! Cut the crap. :confused:
Holly
I was keeping my comments in line with physical abuse. How do you interefere in a situation where a woman walks three steps behind her man in a burkha? One can't nor can that be defined as abuse. However, when one crosses the line in to illegal acts by physically acting out on an individual (wife, daughter, whatever), that is crossing the line. If we go into the psychological aspect of abuse, we'd have to drag out men who've been nagged to death by their wives too.
The reason I state this is because our freedom of religion element gives quite a wide berth, but it also allows for better long term integration IMHO. It takes a few generations, but we've done a better job than anyone else in history. Look at France. - they've banned all symbols of religon from public institutions. Yet, despite these superficial secular measures, they're in deeper shit than us.
Abuse happens in regular households where women aren't subservient, also. Rich, poor, educated, and uneduated households beyond religion and race. The root cause is a man not respecting a woman and in an effort to control women he uses physical force (about Power)
I have no doubt the rates of abuse are probably higher, especially in the countries of origin (mideast, south asia, etc) due to socio-economic conditions. The decrease of abuse here has conicided with greater economic participation from women. Most of the muslim women in the United States are not of the example you stated. My experience comes from interaction with various groups in different locations when I was a student (Chicago, Urbana, Ithaca) and just observations from travel. Hell, I've seen boat loads of young muslim girls party their asses off in clubs/bars, too.
Individual decisions of custom and lifestyle may not be what you like, but I would focus on the acts of violence rather than individual custom. The first is indefensible. Pushing custom out before people are ready leads to situations like the French have to deal with. My .02 cents, YMMV.
Male dominated societies are everywhere.....
My sister's friend is married into a very conservative household. While her husband is quite progressive, the overall subculture they're from requires a certain code from women (always have their heads covered, don't hang around with other men and chat, etc). It's weird though, she participates in the family business from a very authoritative standpoint (has the ability to call shots), yet has to deal with some shitty customs.
Getting women working and participating in the economy is a proven method to reduce abuse. I don't think it will ever go away unfortunately (just like other vices), but can be vigorously kept at bay.
How do you interefere in a situation where a woman walks three steps behind her man in a burkha? One can't nor can that be defined as abuse. However, when one crosses the line in to illegal acts by physically acting out on an individual, that is crossing the line.
By stopping the man, and saying cut the crap. We differ on our definitions of "abuse."
The root cause is a man not respecting a woman and in an effort to control women he uses physical force (about Power).
The root cause is b/c the man is a coward at heart IMO.
My experience comes from interaction with various groups in different locations when I was a student (Chicago, Urbana, Ithaca) and just observations from travel.
I am just speaking from personal experience.
Individual decisions of custom and lifestyle may not be what you like, but I would focus on the acts of violence rather than individual custom.
In this instance, they are one in the same IMO.
Holly
By stopping the man, and saying cut the crap. We differ on our definitions of "abuse."
By the way, people have different definitions of whatever they find culturally acceptable and I know people who've had 'you're in America" line thrown at for simply wearing traditional garb for a wedding out of xenophobia. It's nobody's business what their (my) personal decisions are as long as they are law abiding and don't affect the public. What is publicly acceptable varies from community to community within this nation, too (city, county, state, etc.)
The root cause is b/c the man is a coward at heart IMO.
Or doesn't really know better. There are absolute oafs and backward ass people out there.
In this instance, they are one in the same IMO.
Bottom line is people are shepherded by the laws of the land. Making allowances for 'honor' situations in the communities/countries where these folks come from means it's ok there. When we (the west) raise hell about honor murder, rape, physical punishment, headway can be made because they are indefensible arguments (not saying an idiot won't argue for it). Telling woman to rip their burkhas off and walk together with men isn't going to work until those women have the means to (economic/education) to fight for their status.
Speaking of this, how does the Federal Government still tolerate polygamist colonies? It's illegal and a proven recipie for female abuse. One of the leaders was recently caught, but the colonies exist. Right in our back yards....
If we go into the psychological aspect of abuse, we'd have to drag out men who've been nagged to death by their wives too.
I realize that this is a serious topic, but that is some funny stuff right there!
It's nobody's business what their personal decisions are as long as they are law abiding and don't affect the public.
What is publicly acceptable varies from community to community within this nation, too (city, county, state, etc.)
It is this type of thinking that allows abusers to think they can get away with it, IMO.
Holly
It is this type of thinking that allows abusers to think they can get away with it, IMO.
Holly
Holly, I think the precedent should be set by how the law is enforced. In our society, that is totally dependent upon the federal structure. How Calfornia sees one thing isn't the same as Texas or Florida. If you're a woman, California is a good place for a divorce. If you're a man, Texas is favorable (or the rumors are). And to me, it's a big leap from not finding a culture palatable to declaring them all abusers.
I think the man in Britain found guilty should serve the most severe punishment allowable. If it were the United States, I'd ask for the death penalty. That to me shows commitment against said crime. A media campaign (even in foreign language channels that get piped into the US via satellite) should clearly communicate abuse will not be tolerated and prosecuted with vigor. Information on shelters and other resources should be distributed in multiple mediums and languages if necessary to help women make a choice if they decide to.
A friend of mine (actually I introduced her to my best friend and they got married) used to work for a South Asian woman's shelter in Chicago. The linguistic and cultural barriers are overwhelming at times to these women because they lack education and resources. Some don't even understand it's not ok to be beaten. She's had to translate in court for them, console them for leaving much of what they thought behind, etc. So don't get me wrong, I can see where anger to subservient customs come from. I wouldn't treat a lady like that (and my wife wouldn't take it either), but I feel telling someone to cut the crap isn't going to help the situation, unless you actually catch them red handed in the act of physical abuse.
I appreciate your viewpoint and quality debate...
And to me, it's a big leap from not finding a culture palatable to declaring them all abusers.
In plain terms, it is abuse for a husband not treat his wife equally, and I could give a shit about whose culture/ cult it is adheared in.
This is the United States, and here, we women should be treated with dignity and respect, at all times. There should be NO exception for any reason.
Some don't even understand it's not ok to be beaten.
If they wre told they had to walk BEHIND him, and that was ok, then I can see why.
I can see where anger to subservient customs come from.
Subervient is such a "nice" word. How about demeaning, abusive, rotten, deplorable, disgusting..to name a few.
Holly
In plain terms, it is abuse for a husband not treat his wife equally, and I could give a shit about whose culture/ cult it is adheared in.
This is the United States, and here, we women should be treated with dignity and respect, at all times. There should be NO exception for any reason.
Where did I call for exceptions? Using your definition, the set is significantly larger than just muslims. So, it isn't just about muslim culture. Men not treating women equally spans the earth. Laws that enforce the idea that women are treated equally is what gives society the teeth to set the tone. By the way, did you go up to the individuals in question and tell the husband his behavior was unnacceptable?
Subervient is such a "nice" word. How about demeaning, abusive, rotten, deplorable, disgusting..to name a few.
Plug in whatever word you wish. All the the above work. I try to walk multiple steps ahead of women in malls because I'm trying to get the hell out and away before I get pulled into another store. Unless it's the Sharper Image. I'm a geek, can't pass that one up.
Edit: This link (http://www.who.int/gender/violence/who_multicountry_study/en/) is the World Health Organization's global domestic violence study. I'll read up on it later as it's in multiple chapters...
Speaking of this, how does the Federal Government still tolerate polygamist colonies? It's illegal and a proven recipie for female abuse. One of the leaders was recently caught, but the colonies exist. Right in our back yards....
Without hijacking this thread too much, this is an area I've got some experience in both because of my education and previous employment. Some years ago I thought it would be fun and fulfilling to do family law. So I worked at a domestic violence shelter in Utah as a night and weekend manager while I was finishing college and got a social work degree before law school. Our two highest populations at the shelter?
1. Foreigners married to Americans. No surprise here, but when men married women who didn't speak English, this led to trouble. I could go into my theories on this, but I won't - it just isn't a fantastic idea.
2. Polygamist women looking to escape.
We were a confidential location shelter, so generally the women and children at our shelter were very high risk and didn't have other family who could take them in. Needless to say - over the 18 months I worked here, I talked myself right out of family law. This field sucks the life out of you, over 80% of the women I worked with went home to their abusers. The main reason they went back is the lack of other viable alternative (in their minds), despite the multitude of opportunties we'd try and offer them.
It is hard for me to comment on this topic, even though it has been about ten years since I worked in the shelter. But I can say on the topic of polygamy, that the Federal Government, and Utah in particular are trying their darnest to do something about it. But, the women and people in the situations are so ingrained in the lifestyle that they won't testify against the abusers. It is such a close-knit community that we just can't break into it very well. However with the education initiative they are running and the high profile war against some of the main ringleaders some of them are wising up and understanding that they aren't the people they profess to be and in-roads are happening.
Changing thousands or even hundreds of years of tradition is really, really hard. But that obviously doesn't mean we shouldn't complain loudly or try to educate everyone we can that there is an alternative. And... we should DEFINIATELY fry the offenders.
I didn't go into family law though occasionally I dabble in non-complicated cases. I chose something as non-emotional as possible - software licensing! :D
The abuses against women in the U.S. do take place, everyday.
I believe the threashold issue here is the degree of abuse. Not that minor abuse is acceptable, but I think we need to put some of these things in a proper perspectve. Someone having to walk behind her husban is one thing; honor killings(murder) are another.
When Ayaan Hirse Ali, the author of the book Infidel and who was originally from Somailia, became a junior member of the Dutch Parliment she introduced the subject of keeping statistics related to honor killings. This was I believe in 2003. Her fellow Dutch parliment members thought she was high on something, "there's no honor killings in Holland." They agreed to perform a sample study and keep statistics in two of the tweny-five police regions. Between I believe Oct 2003 to March 2004 there were 11 honor killings in these two regions. The Dutch people were astounded.
If they are happening in England and Holland, they are happening here, and the folks involved in such activities need to be severely dealt with, as should the Imans who proposed such things.
LONDON - A father who ordered his daughter brutally slain for falling in love with the wrong man in a so-called “honor killing” was found guilty of murder on Monday.
One can only hope this sends a message to those that think their religious laws outweigh the law of the land.
Hang him.