View Full Version : 18C's and Wannabes, Name This Item
The Reaper
04-20-2004, 15:33
What is this item, specifically, and why is it a very nasty little bugger?
TR
Just a wannabe here, but it looks like an unexploded mortar round or an RPG projo. Upon closer inspection, looks quite a lot like an RPG projo. I suspect that it has been photoshopped to eliminate markings and make this interesting.
Doubt its a RPG, lacks the "stick" out of the back end. Doubt that its a mortar as it lacks the fins. I am guessing an Artillery shell. What is interesting, and probably why it makes it a nasty lil' SOB is the flat nose. Most artillery shell heads I have seen have the pointed fuse for a nose. So, if there is no fuse, what is it's purpose? Is this a chemical warhead?
Could it be an RPG, already fired, and therefore very sensetive right now? The propellent has already burned and that's why we can't see a "stick" at the rear? The propellent and warhead can be separated.
If the warhead can be detatched from the rear stick, it could be an RPG-7, although it doesn't have those indentations running down its nose.
The Reaper
04-20-2004, 17:22
It is NOT an RPG.
TR
Kyobanim
04-20-2004, 18:07
Looks a lot like a rifle grenade but am leaning towards a 60mm mortar shell. Too small for an 81 IIRC. I'm ignoring the fact that the fins are missing because it is conceivable that they broke off on impact.
Need to blow up the image.
Sub-munition
The 60mm mortar shells don't have such a long middle, according to the pictures on FAS.
Kyobanim
04-20-2004, 18:15
Solid, your right.
I'll go with a M31 rifle grenade. When I'm wrong, nobody dies.
With its fins knocked off, I'd agree.
Brother Rat
04-20-2004, 18:39
Originally posted by Solid
With its fins knocked off, I'd agree.
Or removed?
That is not the M31 Rifle Grenade as the back element, the silver portion, is the incorrect proportions. I ammend my initial thought regarding chemical, as it lacks the lifting plugs that are prevelant upon such warheads. The clue is in the initial question by TR why is it a very nasty little bugger? Now to determine what he means by it. Sub-munitions?
Kyobanim
04-20-2004, 19:26
Originally posted by Para
That is not the M31 Rifle Grenade as the back element, the silver portion, is the incorrect proportions. I ammend my initial thought regarding chemical, as it lacks the lifting plugs that are prevelant upon such warheads. The clue is in the initial question by TR Now to determine what he means by it. Sub-munitions?
I'm seeing the silver part as the firing pin section. It's color says HE.
Looks like a LAW Warhead.
Roguish Lawyer
04-20-2004, 20:06
First guess (I may have several):
Willy-Peter round from 60MM mortar
The Reaper
04-20-2004, 20:06
Originally posted by ktek01
Looks like a LAW Warhead.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winnah!! Good eye, ktek!
Now why is it a nasty item for UXO disposal?
TR
The Reaper
04-20-2004, 20:10
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
First guess (I may have several):
Willy-Peter round from 60MM mortar
Not even close. 60mm WP round has a longer body with a more cylindrical shape and is usually painted light green. Dark Green with Yellow markings is almost always an HE item.
TR
Originally posted by The Reaper
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winnah!! Good eye, ktek!
Now why is it a nasty item for UXO disposal?
TR
Is it because it is a HEAT round, and could go flying some distance if blown in place? Or is the impact fuse that sensitive?
The Reaper
04-20-2004, 20:22
Originally posted by ktek01
Is it because it is a HEAT round, and could go flying some distance if blown in place? Or is the impact fuse that sensitive?
Quit fishing and deliver the rest of your answer.
TR
Originally posted by The Reaper
Quit fishing and deliver the rest of your answer.
TR
LOL, if I knew for sure I wouldnt be fishing. I was just a regular Leg, no demo expert, and that lecture in basic on the LAW fuse was 19 years ago. :D
Once again, just a civ, but doesn't a HEAT round generate a jet of plasma in the direction it is pointed when it goes off?
Ambush Master
04-21-2004, 12:12
That is correct about the "Jet of Plasma", but more importantly, How does it work?? That is, what sets it off, how, when, and what other precautions need to be taken when this type of Dudd is encountered ??
Take care.
Martin
Team Sergeant
04-21-2004, 12:17
Originally posted by The Reaper
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winnah!! Good eye, ktek!
Now why is it a nasty item for UXO disposal?
TR
Rocket. The rocket is a percussion-ignited, fin-stabilized, fixed munition. It is attached by the igniter to the inside of the launcher. The rocket consists of a 66-mm HEAT warhead, a point-initiating, base-detonating fuze, and a rocket motor. Six spring-loaded fins are attached to the rear of the rocket motor. These fins are folded forward along the motor when the rocket is in the launcher. When ignited, the propellant in the rocket motor burns completely, producing gasses about 1,400F(760C). The gas pressure pushes the rocket toward the target and exits to the rear of the launcher as the backblast.
-Caliber .................. 66 mm
-Length ................... 50.8 cm (20 inches)
-Weight.................... 1.8 kg (2.2 pounds)
-Muzzle Velocity........... 144.8 mps (475 fps)
-Minimum Range (Combat).... 10 meters (33 feet)
"-Minimum Arming Range...... 10 meters (33 feet)"
-Maximum Range............. 1,000 meters (3,300 feet)
Maximum Effective Ranges
-Stationary Target ...... 200 meters (660 feet)
-Moving Target........... 165 meters (541 feet)
TS
The Reaper
04-21-2004, 13:10
Originally posted by Ambush Master
That is correct about the "Jet of Plasma", but more importantly, How does it work?? That is, what sets it off, how, when, and what other precautions need to be taken when this type of Dudd is encountered ??
Take care.
Martin
Bingo.
What sort of fuse does it have?
FYI, a HEAT round should be less dangerous to the surrounding area than a conventional HE round, so the charge or its configuration is not the issue.
TR
I believe it has a base-detonating fuze located in the rocket's closure section.
Solid
Once again, Pure civilian speculation, but if what Solid says is true, and the fuse is supposed to be in the tail section, that would mean that the fuse is probably damaged. Making it unpredictable at best.
The Reaper
04-21-2004, 13:49
What Solid mentioned is the wrong part of the fuze data.
I asked about the fuze, not the detonator.
Damage to the tail is irrelevant.
TR
Percussion?
and it is teeter-tottered nose toward the ground being somewhat significant?
The Reaper
04-21-2004, 14:17
Originally posted by GackMan
Percussion?
and it is teeter-tottered nose toward the ground being somewhat significant?
No.
No.
I take it that we are about at the end here, and I have defeated the knowledge base of this august body of budding demolition experts?
TR
Sacamuelas
04-21-2004, 14:33
How it works...
Upon impact, the nose cone crushes; the impact sensor activates the fuze. The ogive crush switch activates the electric detonator. The booster detonates, initiating the main charge.
Not exactly sure why this makes it so tricky for the EOD guys?
Damn, sorry for misleading you guys.
It is the warhead for the older 66mm LAW rocket. It uses a piezo-electric crystal in the nose that crushes and generates a spark of electricity that detonates a base detonating fuze at the rear center of the warhead (as do all HEAT shaped charges). I have no idea why the rocket motor (a tube about 10 inches long, with fins) is not present.
If the nose has impacted and partially collapsed, you can get a bellville-spring effect. (Think of that annoying popping of the bottom of a beer can, in-out, pop-pop). Except, if the nose cap pops inward and the crystal is crushed - detonation. There is supposed to be a graze element (set back armed under the push of launch) that detonates the warhead upon sudden de-acceleration, it obviously did't function, but may be cocked or half cocked and at risk of being jarred free.
In extreme cases, I've heard of the mere cooling of a shadow on the warhead causing uneven cooling of a sun-soaked fuze, freeing a firing pin that then slammed home.
finally, someone who knows WTF is going on. Whew! I thought you Pro fellas were gonna leave this to us Civs to work out. That could have been interesting:D
The Reaper
04-21-2004, 15:53
Originally posted by CSB
It is the warhead for the older 66mm LAW rocket. It uses a piezo-electric crystal in the nose that crushes and generates a spark of electricity that detonates a base detonating fuze at the rear center of the warhead (as do all HEAT shaped charges). I have no idea why the rocket motor (a tube about 10 inches long, with fins) is not present.
If the nose has impacted and partially collapsed, you can get a bellville-spring effect. (Think of that annoying popping of the bottom of a beer can, in-out, pop-pop). Except, if the nose cap pops inward and the crystal is crushed - detonation. There is supposed to be a graze element (set back armed under the push of launch) that detonates the warhead upon sudden de-acceleration, it obviously did't function, but may be cocked or half cocked and at risk of being jarred free.
In extreme cases, I've heard of the mere cooling of a shadow on the warhead causing uneven cooling of a sun-soaked fuze, freeing a firing pin that then slammed home.
BINGO!!
Well done, CSB, though as an SF guy, I am not surprised that you knew that.
It has a "a point-initiating, base-detonating fuze" (almost all HEAT rounds are base detonated, that is how they function).
As you noted, after firing, the piezo electric crystal fuze in the nose can sit and do nothing for a long time, and then detonate for the most minor of reasons, like a small movement, such as a clearing charge being placed on it, or even a shadow causing the fuze to cool and contract enough to generate the current to detonate it.
That is why it is important to only fire LAWs at hard targets (armored, not thin skinned) and do a thorough police call of the area after shooting, if you are clearing the range.
It is an electric/electronic device, IIRC, there is no firing pin in the warhead that I am aware of.
TR
The Reaper
04-21-2004, 15:54
If desired, I can post a picture of how it happened, but will answer no questions from non-SF guys about the specifics.
TR
So, TR what would you recommend doing about such a thing? Back off and shoot it with a .50? Throw rocks at it till it goes BOOM?
TR, any pictures would be much appreciated, even without an SF commentary.
Thank you,
Solid
Ambush Master
04-21-2004, 16:07
The other thing to worry about is Static Electricity and all of the above other concerns. Piezos are very reliable when they hit something Solid , as TR said, but once "Armed", and damaged they are unpredictable at best. A .50 shot may set it off, but if you don't know what you are doing, don't even think about approaching it and definitely do not get anywhere in front of it, I've seen "Plasma Balls and Jets" in action and it would not be pretty. I won't go into any detailed diposal in here.
Take care.
Martin
The Reaper
04-21-2004, 16:10
Originally posted by Air.177
So, TR what would you recommend doing about such a thing? Back off and shoot it with a .50? Throw rocks at it till it goes BOOM?
You could shoot it with a de-arming gun to scatter it, but I would VERY CAREFULLY place a clearing charge or better yet, one of the EOD mini-shaped charges on top of it.
Here is the rest of it. Remember, no questions.
TR
I don't even want to know
Wow, I just hope he was right handed.
Ambush Master
04-21-2004, 19:20
Was that an attempt at "Dis-arming" of a misfire ?? When you say de-arming gun are you referring to a "Water-Cannon" or "Disrupter" ?? PM if you prefer.
Later
Martin
TR, do you happen to also have a picture of the Range Control guy's face that came to see why you guys suddenly called for a cold range? :)
The Reaper
04-22-2004, 07:36
Originally posted by Razor
TR, do you happen to also have a picture of the Range Control guy's face that came to see why you guys suddenly called for a cold range? :)
We had the keys to the range permanently.
EOD refused to respond to our range allegedly due to the improvised, expedient and other non-standard munitions we employed.
As they put it. "You built 'em, you shot 'em, YOU clear 'em. We ain't coming to Coleman Range for you guys, ever."
Nice, since Demo Committee shot 60,000 lbs of demo per year, much in the aforementioned more hazardous improvised munitions, expended it training almost 1,000 students per year, and were on the range an average of 10 days per month, and were not authorized Demo Pay, but EOD was.
We did get put in check fire occasionally when someone in the area (COSMONITES camping adjacent to the range, low flying planes, people back on main post with rattled windows) would complain.
War Story for RL:
We had almost 500 lbs. of charges placed on five seperate ring mains burning downrange, the first (a steel cutting shot) went off. Radio starts squawking, Range 69, check fire, CHECK FIRE!!
I reach out of the bunker and grab the handset to see what is up while continuing to look at my watch for the countdown.
Ask Range Control what is up. They say that a unit has taken incoming frag from our range. I ask how the unit knows it is ours. He says that they are up by the entrance to the range where the stopped for lunch and they heard the boom before they got fragged. I ask him if he means by the sign saying "Range 69, Coleman Demo" and "Danger, Explosives" right by where the big red hot range flag is flying, he checks with them and says "yes".
Since he missed my first attempt at humor, and we have a few seconds before the next explosion takes place, I ask Range Control if he has one of those Ft Bragg Range Special maps handy, he says of course, it is right there on the wall. I ask him to look at the big red circle around Range 69, and tell me if they are in the clearly posted "Danger Zone" area indicated on the map.
He says yes, and reminds me to check fire. I tell him that I cannot, I have fuzes burning downrange. He tells me to go cut them. Everyone in the bunker is looking at me by this point, and I tell him, "I don't think I will". He "orders" me to do so. I laugh and tell him that if he wants someone to go downrange and cut burning fuzes on 400 lbs. of demo, he needs to drive out to the range real fast and do it himself. I then key up the handset as the next charge goes off about 5 seconds later so that he can hear it back at Range Contol. He tells me to safe and clear after the charges are all shot and call him on the land line. I call his boss instead, and talk about safety and common sense.
Fun and games with explosives.
TR
I assume you are referring to XVIII Corps EOD. They were as worthless a group of "soldiers" as I ever had the displeasure of working with. In Somalia, but that's another story.
Ambush Master
04-22-2004, 18:36
Can you say BOOM !! I was WAAAYYYY TOO CLOSE to this !!
Ambush Master
04-22-2004, 18:39
This was seen by the Control Tower at Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon some 70 clicks to the West.
Ambush Master
04-22-2004, 18:40
And another.
Sacamuelas
04-22-2004, 18:41
:eek:...
Ambush Master
04-22-2004, 18:45
Me in the crater.
Ambush Master
04-22-2004, 18:48
Sgt. Celano, one of the KIA on the Brightlight Mission.
Kyobanim
04-23-2004, 10:07
Originally posted by Ambush Master
Me in the crater.
That look on your face says, "DAMN! I've got to do that again!" Priceless
Ambush Master
04-23-2004, 10:17
As I stood there taking those Pics, I heard what sounded kind of like rain and took the camera down to see a SKY FULL OF CHUNKS THE SIZE OF THE ONE THAT I'M HOLDING !!!! I dove under the 3/4 Ton and that stuff "Rained Down" for a good Minute. It beat the "Rag Top" off of the Truck !!! Those Pics were not taken with a Telephoto, just a plain old 50mm Lens.
AmericanPride
04-26-2004, 18:47
It's pictures and stories like these that motivated me to want to become an 18C. :D
magician
04-27-2004, 06:50
Tony, if I had worked for you, I probably would have never left.
:)
Roguish Lawyer
04-27-2004, 07:08
Originally posted by The Reaper
War Story for RL:
Been out of town and just saw this now. Thanks! Good one.
alphamale
09-13-2004, 18:05
BTTT this thread.
Holy smokes!
Hollywood shot, pressed the button on this one.
Okay 18 Series please name the below on this munition. I know you EOD Techs can slam this out, give us a week to name this. No Pun with SLAM (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/slam.htm). I'll like to see if 18C's can name it. I know that every 18C has graduated since 2003 have gotten a UXO block.
Name the following:
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What weapon fires this warhead.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
Okay here's a new PIX to help you out.
Okay 18C name the below on this munition.
Name the following:
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What weapon fires this warhead.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
Okay here's a new PIX to help you out.
Its been more than a week no takers. New PIX too.
Peregrino
05-11-2006, 21:01
MG - I'm surprised none of the sluggos have taken you up on this one. IIRC it's still pretty common and the Bravos actually get to shoot them. (Everybody better know how - the instructions are printed on the launcher!) :munchin Peregrino
The Reaper
05-11-2006, 21:23
Roger that.
I'm waiting for the Charlies as well.
If they don't hurry up, I am going to pass Ernie some names for remedial training.:D
TR
Name the following:
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What weapon fires this warhead.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
OK, First off, I am WAY OUTTA MY LANE HERE!!! I definately fit the Wannabe in the thread title, but here goes:
1: the projectile in the second pic appears to be an 84 mm HEAT round
2:It's UXO, I have no formal instruction, but that means its at least a bit dangerous.
3:AT4 single shot anti-tank weapon
4:appears to be a Point initiating, Base detonating fuze similar to the RPG series of anti-tank weapons. Also, I believe this weapon has a fuze more sensitive to shallow impacts than previous designs
5:I honestly don't know what BIP means
If I am way out of line here, Someone please delete this post and in any event, have a good one.
Good times,
Blake
BMT (RIP)
05-12-2006, 05:10
Damn all this waiting in line!! I am going to call Ernie.
BMT
gtcrispy
05-12-2006, 06:36
I couldn't ID the exact rocket based on memory or looking through the one IED book I received in the course. Looking at the picture I would expect it to have venturis out the rear of the motor if it was a rocket but I don't remember the backside of a AT4 outside of its tube. The picture here is consistent with a picture of a AT4 rocket that I googled. The ejecting fins would also be another indication that is most likely a rocket.
Based on this I would say it would be a Projected munition, Rocket, HEAT. What appears to be a break in the major diameter would indicate a HEAT round.
Fuzing would be PIBD/Lucky.
Safety hazards: Due to the Lucky crystal take into consideration Static and EMR when approaching it. Do not a cast a shadow over the rocket to prevent a possible temperature changed detected by the Lucky crystal. Do not move in front of the rocket due to its HEAT round/shaped charge. Do not move it do the sensitive lucky crystal. HE/FRAG/JET/EJECTION would also apply.
BIP: Because its a HEAT round I would want to take out both the shaped charge and the motor itself. I would prime a block of C4 and place it where the break in the major diameter would cut the C4 block in half. The C4 block would not be touching the rocket but it would be close as possible to ensure destruction of the rocket.
I could really use that refresher course. With Korean out of the way I'll be hitting all my books/notes that I have to get myself back up to speed at least reading wise. Haven't seen or touched a piece of demo for about 9 months.
The Reaper
05-12-2006, 08:36
You know guys, when it takes an 18A to tell you that is an AT-4 projectile, I have to wonder about the quality of both the 18B and 18C training. The 84mm cartridge consists of a fin assembly with tracer element; a point-initiating, base-detonating, piezoelectric fuze; a warhead body with liner; and a precision-shaped explosive charge.
We were teaching UXO back in the late 80s. You need to pay attention to this particularly given the requirements we have these days for UXO and for munitions destruction. It could save your life to know these things.
This is definitely going to be brought up with Ernie in the very near future.
Good work gtcrispy. Your description, handling procedures and BIP sound good to me. You can be the Junior Engineer Sergeant on my team, anytime. The rest of you guys, drop and start pushing.
TR
Peregrino
05-12-2006, 09:21
The rest of you guys, drop and start pushing.
TR
x2 - Though you might cut Air.177 some slack. He did ID it and he was honest about the "out of my lane" part. Of course the sledgehammer hints might have helped. :p Peregrino
BIP = Blow In Place
BIP = Blow In Place
Tallyho P, will add that one to my list of Acronyms to know.
AM's training materials are slightly out of date as you may imagine, I believe we are up to "Black Powder and Gun Cotton and their place on the modern Battlefield":D
Roger that TR, Knockin em out.
Good times,
Blake
The Reaper
05-12-2006, 10:10
Roger that TR, Knockin em out.
Good times,
Blake
Blake:
You are not on the PU demonstration team, your guess was pretty good, but are not a member of the target audience questioned.
Peregrino was right, I should have given you due credit, especially as a young civilian taking a shot.
TR
Blake:
You are not on the PU demonstration team, your guess was pretty good, but are not a member of the target audience questioned.
Peregrino was right, I should have given you due credit, especially as a young civilian taking a shot.
TR
Blake - Credit is very well do -like TR said especially for a civilian with no formal training. ( I'm geussing) thats some good Googling or ASK or whichever search engine you used. :rolleyes:
gtcrispy - Good job on your add ons. Your Safety hazards were especially well stated. Thats the first thing you start to forget. On your BIP -What is the method or better how. Good job on not moving the UXO :D
Now try teaching a ODA all of them. That why taking that UXO/MINE CD-ROM from the 18C course is so important. Get that SOMRAD book printed out for each of your vehciles or load the TDAs and ORDATA II onto your ODA computers.
BMT - I am going to call Ernie. Have you made that call yet?? Man that took a long time - and a Civillian had to answer first. :confused:
I guess these NEW 18 Charlies are looking for the other guy to put his hand up first. So HE doesn't look like the dummy (@$$).
VG
We were teaching UXO back in the late 80s. You need to pay attention to this particularly given the requirements we have these days for UXO and for munitions destruction. It could save your life to know these things.
TR
I remember me and another NCO having to "fight" to get UXO added to the 18C30 CTL during a CTRB. Good thing LTG L was in the seat and that became a hot issue. People wanted to keep it in the ANCOC side of the teaching house. I said, "wait we have 18C (Jr) going to a team with nothing more than knowing about mines." Something is wrong here. They don't get to ANCOC until they are E7s so that will be 2 to 6/8 (18X) years. So they have to institutional training on the subject.
Okay 18C name the below on this munition.
Name the following:
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What weapon "fires" this warhead.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
Slantwire
05-16-2006, 09:14
Okay 18C name the below on this munition.
Name the following:
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What weapon "fires" this warhead.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
I'm going to be the next untrained, no-prior-service wannabe to wander out of my lane for this thread. But the thread title includes wannabes, so here goes.
1. It appears to be a BLU-97/B munition. Scored steel, designed to fragment and really screw the day for anyone nearby. I believe this is an anti-tank weapon.
2. Fragmentation plus incendiary effects. Essentially a 20 cm long x 6 cm diameter frag grenade. Hard to see in the shadow of the black metal / plastic, but perhaps the collar didn't push up to arm the munition? If my earlier assumption is correct (that this an anti-tank weapon), then this is an impact-triggered submunition and should have detonated on hitting a target or the ground. Perhaps it really is armed but the sandy soil cushioned the impact enough to prevent detonation?
3. CBU-87, TLAM-D, and a JSOW? The CBU-87 is an aircraft-launched cluster bomb.
4. The munition should arm at 6.5 G. The CBU-87/B has a FZU-39/B proximity sensor (timer or radar proximity sensor) for releasing the BLU-97s, I'm still looking for the individual munition detonator.
5. Unlike the last test item, this one has no motor to destroy. I'd imagine a C4 block would do this job as well, but what I don't know would fill libraries. If it's impact-triggered, might a well-placed shot set it off?
Spartan359
05-16-2006, 09:18
Okay 18C name the below on this munition.
Name the following:
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What weapon "fires" this warhead.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
As with Air.177 I'm out of my league. If only the Quiet Professionals are supposed to post here please delete this post.
1. It looks to be a BLU-97/B
2. Effective against armor, personnel and material
3. The BLU-97/b are dropped from a CBU-87, an all-purpose, air-delivered cluster weapons system.
4. FZU-39/B proximity sensor
5. The only thing I found for BIP methods involved using a flare (either electric match ignited or time fuse ignited) which caused the munition to crack thus neutralized it.
Edited to noted: Damn it someone beat me to it!
gtcrispy
05-16-2006, 09:26
Dropped/Sub-munition BLU-97/B as noted "Engineer Killer".
Dispensed from: CBU-87 & Tomahawk Guided Missle Surf-Surf and Sub-Surf
Just want to state first off that I ID'd the munition in the picture as a scatterable submunition. There were no foreign markings I could see so based on the NATO color sytem I would classify it as a HE type. I used the Operational Support Guide for Joint Service EOD: Iraqi AO book as well the cd based version to ID the exact munition. BLU-97/B HEAT submunition.
Safety Hazards: HE/FRAG/MOVE/EMR/STATIC/CS(dispensed)/FIRE/LUCKY/JET.
As a note I had written down from class if there is a parachute/streamer attached to the munition and there is a 5kt or greater wind DO NOT approach the munition.
Fuzing: Impact Inertia fuze classified as a PIBD.
BIP: I would want to stay as far away as possible from this munition. One method a 18C had mentioned when he came by class to talk to us based on his very recent dealings in Afghanistan. Based on memory he said he would get some type of cardboard and then attached a length of cord to this so he could drag near the munition without having to be near it. Could prime a block of C4 and use MDI along the length of the cord. Once the C4 is near the munition go ahead and find cover and initiate the MDI. My concerns with this are finding cover, being far away enough from the munition, getting the C4 close enough to the munition so that it is destoryed and not thrown somewhere else on the battlefield.
I'm all ears so please educate me more.
OKAY - gtcrispy, Spartan359, and Pinhead all a good job on the numbers.
1) Type by function - (Type) Dropped/Sub-munition BLU-97/B (function?) Remeber if your a Charlie that there are how many Types of UXOs? Not categories - Types.
Also, remember that Type by Function is in both Filler and the fuze. That is by I have broken this question answer in this way.
2) gtcrispy you had the best SH - HE/FRAG/MOVE/EMR/STATIC/CS(dispensed)/FIRE/LUCKY/JET
3) gtcrispy - Impact Inertia fuze classified as a PIBD some also it is called a All-ways acting fuze. It can move basiclly in four direction.
3) Spartan359 - FZU-39/B proximity sensor (Good job)
4) Pinhead best job on coveringmost of them CBU-87, TLAM-D, and a JSOW? The CBU-87 is an aircraft-launched cluster bomb
5) BIP - I cover some way on doing it.
(1) 1/4 to 1/2 block C4 next to but not
(2) SMUD the UXO
(3) use a TRAP system
(4) get a PakBot EOD for your ODA - I'm asking for two each. Remote Disposal of UXO the best way :D
(5) The way the 18C mentioned doing it - no major problems IMHO. He got it disposal of and didn't get killed ;) mission accomplished.
When you disposal of it you need to remember your SH on BIPing it. This one has a JET SH.
Okay now for the next UXO no answers from gtcrispy, Spartan359, and Pinhead for 7 days. Let see if some other 18C or people can ID them.
Thanks Great Job
Slantwire
05-17-2006, 07:08
5) BIP - I cover some way on doing it.
(4) get a PakBot EOD for your ODA - I'm asking for two each. Remote Disposal of UXO the best way :D
My first choice would be one of the remote-controlled, up-armored Bobcats that my company made for Army Rapid Equipping Force, but I figured that's not something an ODA would have. Certainly not if it jumped in! :D I completely forgot about the Packbots - oops!
Okay 18 Charlies number three - name the below on this munition.
Name the following:
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What weapon "fires" this warhead.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
PIN/gt/359 7 days wait out for others :boohoo
The Reaper
05-17-2006, 15:20
Unless they are doing UXO in Haiti, you gotta make these a bit more difficult.
What, are you using the pics out of your lesson plans?:D
TR
What, are you using the pics out of your lesson plans?:D
One is or was... Them other are training aid or FOI :D
Okay since TR popped the back of my head. So I see we don't like some WWII (Haiti).
Unless they are doing UXO in Haiti, you gotta make these a bit more difficult.
What, are you using the pics out of your lesson plans?
Had to get home and get one of my PIX cards out. Its all Good TR.. Nothing but growning pain - weakness leaving the body. :D
So 18 Charlies here is number four. :munchin
Diddo- name the below on this munition.
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What is the Munition (UXO) and what weapon "fires" this UXO.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
The Reaper
05-17-2006, 18:50
Okay since TR popped the back of my head. So I see we don't like some WWII (Haiti).
Had to get home and get one of my PIX cards out. Its all Good TR.. Nothing but growning pain - weakness leaving the body. :D
Hey, the 18Cs had this stuff in class, and are getting smoked by O's, squids, and civilians who have never had a class on it.
You had to do better than a bazooka round if you want the riffraff like us to stay out of it while you challenged the Charlies.:rolleyes:
TR
Hey, the 18Cs had this stuff in class, and are getting smoked by O's, squids, and civilians who have never had a class on it.
:rolleyes:
Well TR looks like they can't answer any of these PIX. You are right, its sad to see a new 18C just getting ready to Grad this week, some O's (most are RET) and a Civillian getting them all. Most just by googling, and that's good.
Look 18Cs you are getting walked on all over. Set up to the plate.
18C knowing what is in front of you and how to get close to it. Then knowing how to get rid of it is what we are trying to cover here. Look its more that just setting some C4 next to most things that are found. You may be training and have to do tis in a country that you are visiting.
18C just like the rest of us, you have to teach your ODA and others in your basic skills that you know or will know soon. Look in most countries you are looked at as a EOD TECH.
Okay 18Charlies here is number four. :munchin
Diddo- name the below on this munition.
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What is the Munition (UXO) and what weapon "fires" this UXO.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
Lets try this one
Slantwire
05-24-2006, 10:50
Diddo- name the below on this munition.
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What is the Munition (UXO) and what weapon "fires" this UXO.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
Well, I've been abiding by the 7-day wait period. It might just be the angle, but the two UXOs look to be similar but not the same - the new picture looks to be longer overall, with an elongated ogive. If they are the same, I'm already sure I'm wrong. My answer for the first one:
1. 90mm projectile, anti-armor HE Squash-Head shell (M691). Intended to blow the interior of an armor plate loose as killing fragments without necessarily penetrating the armor directly.
2. HE/FRAG/MOVE/EMR/STATIC/FIRE/LUCKY/JET.
3. Unexpended shell from a M691A2 HESH round. Fired by 90mm cannon. Not sure when this round was introduced, or when (or if) it was retired. Lots of things have fired 90 mm over the years, back (at least) as far as the M1 Anti-aircraft Gun in WW2. The M48A3 tank, Light Armored Vehicle-Assault Gun (LAV-AG), M67 90-mm recoilless rifle, and M56 Scorpion self-propelled Antitank Gun all used 90 mm.
4. Impact or graze fuze. Have not found an part number.
5. I can google links to FMs for EOD, but they all require more than my email-only AKO. So I'm stuck with "set C4 next to it" and "shoot from a distance to trigger the impact fuze."
Well, I've been abiding by the 7-day wait period. It might just be the angle, but the two UXOs look to be similar but not the same - the new picture looks to be longer overall, with an elongated ogive. If they are the same, I'm already sure I'm wrong. My answer for the first one:
1. 90mm projectile, anti-armor HE Squash-Head shell. Intended to blow the interior of an armor plate loose as killing fragments without necessarily penetrating the armor directly.
2. HE/FRAG/MOVE/EMR/STATIC/FIRE/LUCKY/JET.
3. Unexpended shell from a M691A2 HESH round. Fired by 90mm cannon. Not sure when this round was introduced, or when (or if) it was retired. Lots of things have fired 90 mm over the years, back (at least) as far as the M1 Anti-aircraft Gun in WW2. The M48A3 tank, Light Armored Vehicle-Assault Gun (LAV-AG), M67 90-mm recoilless rifle, and M56 Scorpion self-propelled Antitank Gun all used 90 mm.
4. Impact or graze fuze. Have not found an part number.
5. I can google links to FMs for EOD, but they all require more than my email-only AKO. So I'm stuck with "set C4 next to it" and "shoot from a distance to trigger the impact fuze."
Good Job Pinhead - Man the Civilian getting this again. :boohoo
In gerenal this rocket is fire from Mult-Barrel Rocket Launcher (MBRL) and most have 12 Tubes that are in rows of 3-4 tube "sets".
Type by Function: Chinese RKT, 107MM, HE-FRAG (TNT)
Safety: Ejection, EMR, FRAG, HE, PROX, STATIC
Fuze: Typically these have a PD, Type 3 Fuze, they can have a ceremic Fuze that is MP1(A). No LUCKY/JET with this UXO. But its better safe than sorry. :eek:
Attack (Disposal): Warhead with C4, some say counter-force.
Okay if the "ammunition" used with the MBRL is the Rocket which consists of one piece a warhead is attached to the rocket motor and has a fixed amount of propellant is contained in the rocket motor.
What additional do you need to worry about while disposing this UXO with this precaution above?
gtcrispy
05-24-2006, 18:57
You are going to want to hit both the warhead and the rocket motor with seperate charges so that both are destroyed and you aren't left with one piece of UXO now in 2 parts. One other thought. Is there is a risk of the rocket propellent igniting sending the UXO in whatever direction?
You are going to want to hit both the warhead and the rocket motor with seperate charges so that both are destroyed and you aren't left with one piece of UXO now in 2 parts.
Good gtcrispy - You'll need at least 2 Pkgs of C4.
One other thought. Is there is a risk of the rocket propellent igniting sending the UXO in whatever direction?
Yes I can happen, just as in horseshoes and hand Gernades. 2.75 style RKT that happens more than this Chinesse style of RKT. Meaning that the 2.75 RKT have the Warhead and the Motor are two seperate parts. Typically you have to screw the motor and warheads together or they come this way. These 107 to 120mm RKTs they are made all "together" in one "tube".
Thats why you have your Safe EVAC distance or FRAG Distance to CAL out by your Type by Fillers of the UXO.
Slantwire
05-25-2006, 08:11
Good Job Pinhead - Man the Civilian getting this again. :boohoo
Thank you, but it looks like I was pretty far off.
I identified an American 90mm artillery shell, when it was actually a Chinese 107mm rocket. About all I got was that it's bigger than small-arms, spin-stabilzed, and HE.
I don't mind kudos, but I prefer to earn them. :lifter
Thank you, but it looks like I was pretty far off.
I identified an American 90mm artillery shell, when it was actually a Chinese 107mm rocket. About all I got was that it's bigger than small-arms, spin-stabilzed, and HE.
I don't mind kudos, but I prefer to earn them. :lifter
You get the KUDOS (man those can be some good candy bars too) becuase you tried, and thats what we want - An SF-Wannabe that will try!! Hell I can't get any of the 18Cs to drop a dine to try to get these.
Plus Pinhead you did nail everything if it was a 90mm ARTY Rd. Look at it this way, your not "Trained" and you did get the Safety Hazards for both of the UXOs. More than needed, but you covered them all. Is this wrong, yes but what it does is SOMEtimes make you WORK more in the long run. But you got it (90mm) right.
Maybe we need to start a CAL PLACE or TO Thread in the 18C Section.
But you Tried PinHead! :lifter
You are going to want to hit both the warhead and the rocket motor with seperate charges so that both are destroyed and you aren't left with one piece of UXO now in 2 parts. One other thought. Is there is a risk of the rocket propellent igniting sending the UXO in whatever direction?
Another way not to do it, is to shoot the motor, with a Barret, we might have learned this one the hard way. (That sucker hit the ravine wall and shot straight up. I have no idea where it ended up) :D
It should be an easy one.
Ambush Master
05-28-2006, 09:09
Nozzle, 1ea, 122mm Rocket!!
Another way not to do it, is to shoot the motor, with a Barret, we might have learned this one the hard way. (That sucker hit the ravine wall and shot straight up. I have no idea where it ended up) :D
LOL Loved to have saw that Video MAX_TAB :D :munchin
Since no one answered, it is a picture of the ass end of a 107 mm rocket.
The rocket landed right outside the wire, and that was all that was left of it.
Wow, excellent thread. Anyone want to kick one off for the 18 bravos?;)
Okay Charlie' here is number five.
Name the below on these UXOs.
1) Type by function of UXOs.
2) Safety Hazards for them.
3) BIP method?
4) How do you Charlie's move these UXO for Disposal?
Okay Charlie' here is number five.
Name the below on these UXOs.
1) Type by function of UXOs.
2) Safety Hazards for them.
3) BIP method?
4) How do you Charlie's move these UXO for Disposal?
Not sure of 1-3, but number 4 I would say they probable had them loaded up in a Jenga truck and then just dumped them in a hole.
x SF med
06-28-2006, 08:25
As an 18B/18D-
1. too many bombs to count, probably unstable, although most look unfused - rely on Charlie's great knowledge
2. they go BOOM, and throw little pieces of shrapnel at high velocity, long distances - Charlie knows more than I do - defer to him
3. Stay away unless the Charlie asks for assistance
3. Make sure M-5 Bag is handy
3. Tie Uili knots, measure Det cord, measure time fuse, open and cut C4 if asked
3. keep eyes and ears open for BGs, rifle at ready
4. Make sure there is Medevac standing by, in case Charlie makes a mistake
Not sure of 1-3, but number 4 I would say they probable had them loaded up in a Jenga truck and then just dumped them in a hole.
MAX_TAB
I'll wait out on answering that one.
18Cs is MAX_TAB Right? Can you 18 Series move those UXOs?
Yes? No? Why or Why Not?
Slantwire
06-29-2006, 11:37
Okay Charlie' here is number five.
Name the below on these UXOs.
1) Type by function of UXOs.
2) Safety Hazards for them.
3) BIP method?
4) How do you Charlie's move these UXO for Disposal?
Wow, that's a lot. As the man said, there are too many for counting to be worthwhile (in most circumstances).
1. A whole mess of spin-stablized rockets. I'm going to assume that most or all of them are high explosive. (Hard to say if it's lighting, fading paint, or if there are yellow casings in that pile of ODs.)
2. HE / FRAG for sure. I'd assume STATIC / EM / MOVE are hazards also. Most appear to be unfuzed, not that it makes the HE payload less dangerour. That much clustered together, get people way the hell away.
3. I'll leave it to the experts, until I get trained to be one.
4. Bulldozer? Dump truck? I'm curious to hear the story here.
As an 18B/18D-
1. too many bombs to count, probably unstable, although most look unfused - rely on Charlie's great knowledge
2. they go BOOM, and throw little pieces of shrapnel at high velocity, long distances - Charlie knows more than I do - defer to him
3. Stay away unless the Charlie asks for assistance
3. Make sure M-5 Bag is handy
3. Tie Uili knots, measure Det cord, measure time fuse, open and cut C4 if asked
3. keep eyes and ears open for BGs, rifle at ready
4. Make sure there is Medevac standing by, in case Charlie makes a mistake
Now that is Funny LOL :D
Wow, that's a lot. As the man said, there are too many for counting to be worthwhile (in most circumstances).
1. A whole mess of spin-stablized rockets. I'm going to assume that most or all of them are high explosive. (Hard to say if it's lighting, fading paint, or if there are yellow casings in that pile of ODs.).
There not Rockets - let see if the current 18C Class can chime in.
2. HE / FRAG for sure. I'd assume STATIC / EM / MOVE are hazards also. Most appear to be unfuzed, not that it makes the HE payload less dangerour. That much clustered together, get people way the hell away.. HE/ FRAG Only, well I guess you can throw in MOVE. But, only becuase there all just thrown on the ground. Got to look for those nasty TANGOs that can go BOOM as X_SF_Med said.
Covering those ears, I don't think that will work. :eek:
3. I'll leave it to the experts, until I get trained to be one. I think maybe I need to ask how far away you should be. But lets not go there - OPSEC guys. Just the basics here. How do you blow this pile O' Shyt
4. Bulldozer? Dump truck? I'm curious to hear the story here. Wait out and see what the expects say here.
x SF med
06-29-2006, 16:47
Now that is Funny LOL :D
Truth can be funny!! Hell, it's been way too long since I did any UXO clearing - that was the best short answer I could come up with, except I forgot to add under 3.a. - and approach only with great trepidation, wondering why I'm being asked to help when there are 2 damn Charlie's on the team (well, there are 2 Deltas on the team too) and who the hell I pissed off to get chosen.
Slantwire
06-30-2006, 06:57
There not Rockets - let see if the current 18C Class can chime in.
.....
Wait out and see what the expects say here.
Understood, laying low.
Truth can be funny!! Hell, it's been way too long since I did any UXO clearing - that was the best short answer I could come up with, except I forgot to add under 3.a. - and approach only with great trepidation, wondering why I'm being asked to help when there are 2 damn Charlie's on the team (well, there are 2 Deltas on the team too) and who the hell I pissed off to get chosen.
:D
Well we are all shooters right. Then why do the 18Bs always run the ranges. Should everyone on the ODA do that. Things never change do they. I can do IVs and my ABCDEs too. Get me in a Trauma line and lets see how well I do.
How long do we have to wait before someone answers? I'm getting really curious about the answers. I still think they were in a truck and haji just backed up and threw them out.
How long do we have to wait before someone answers? I'm getting really curious about the answers. I still think they were in a truck and haji just backed up and threw them out.
MT
I bet your right about that and the pile. I'll give it till next Friday. With the 4th and the weekend, guys are gone for the 4-day.
You are tracking on the one you answered. Just looking to see what 18Cs think or better know.
Okay Charlie' here is number five.
Name the below on these UXOs.
1) Type by function of UXOs.
2) Safety Hazards for them.
3) BIP method?
4) How do you Charlie's move these UXO for Disposal?
Okay got some hits on this one. Where are the current Charlies at??
Pinhead got one right, at least he answered.
Max_Tab hit on moving these UXOs. So here is the break down of what is answered so far. Yes you can read, but hey once again where are the Charlies??
1) Type by function of UXOs. Type- (PROJOs) So what kind are here?
Does it matter, no not really (WHY) but it helps and your Blast/Frag SDZ CAL. Why 18Cs does UXO Type (By Name) for your SDZ??
2) Safety Hazards for them. Function -Pinhead got these
Originally Posted by Pinhead
2. HE / FRAG for sure. I'd assume STATIC / EM / MOVE are hazards also. Most appear to be unfuzed, not that it makes the HE payload less dangerour. That much clustered together, get people way the hell away.
HE/ FRAG, Like I said you can throw in MOVE.
Why do these matter - Saftey Hazards that is.
3) BIP method? Need an answer here?
You have multi UXOs (Ordnance) throw in a pile. So how do we Blow these In Place (BIP). Can we??
4) How do you Charlie's move these UXO for Disposal? So can 18 Series move these UXOs?? WHY?
Seven (7) Day wait out here.
The Reaper
07-08-2006, 08:18
Okay, I guess I'll give it a shot.
Looks like a stack of artillery projos, I would guess 122mm or 152mm. Most appear to be unfused or have had the fuzes removed. That means that they are safe to handle. Any with fuzes remaining are potential explosive frag hazards. This looks like a clean-up dump point. As they are right now, this is an IED bomber's treasure trove, enough stuff there to keep him in business for years.
Once you have verified the rounds are HE, as they appear to be (don't want to create a nice Sarin clowd or even just a bunch of WP starting wildfires), the unfuzed ones can be removed and laid out in rows for destruction. If the area was safe and destruction in place were desired, you could, with a lot of hassle, risk of some flying away, and probably some missed rounds, place C-4 on each round you could reach, dual prime, and BIP.
Personally, I would prefer to put them in rows for better management, place M-112 charge blocks of C-4 across the rounds and prime normally. I would be cautious as it would be very simple to have set this up as an EOD killer with either a command detonated or boobytrapped round underneath witing for the team to arrive. It does look abandoned though.
Any with fuzes could be any of a variety of arty fuzes, most likely impact. Once laid out, the MSD would be that of the arty rounds, unless the Net Explosive Weight of the shot exceeded the arty MSD. I would go with the further of these two numbers.
You can safely move the unfuzed rounds by any means desired, to include a bucket loader or a mule.
If possible, I would BIP any of the rounds that still had fuzes.
HTH.
TR
Okay, I guess I'll give it a shot.
Looks like a stack of artillery projos, I would guess 122mm or 152mm. Most appear to be unfused or have had the fuzes removed. That means that they are safe to handle. Any with fuzes remaining are potential explosive frag hazards. This looks like a clean-up dump point. As they are right now, this is an IED bomber's treasure trove, enough stuff there to keep him in business for years.
Once you have verified the rounds are HE, as they appear to be (don't want to create a nice Sarin clowd or even just a bunch of WP starting wildfires), the unfuzed ones can be removed and laid out in rows for destruction. If the area was safe and destruction in place were desired, you could, with a lot of hassle, risk of some flying away, and probably some missed rounds, place C-4 on each round you could reach, dual prime, and BIP.
Personally, I would prefer to put them in rows for better management, place M-112 charge blocks of C-4 across the rounds and prime normally. I would be cautious as it would be very simple to have set this up as an EOD killer with either a command detonated or boobytrapped round underneath witing for the team to arrive. It does look abandoned though.
Any with fuzes could be any of a variety of arty fuzes, most likely impact. Once laid out, the MSD would be that of the arty rounds, unless the Net Explosive Weight of the shot exceeded the arty MSD. I would go with the further of these two numbers.
You can safely move the unfuzed rounds by any means desired, to include a bucket loader or a mule.
If possible, I would BIP any of the rounds that still had fuzes.
Okay first off, Damn Charlies WTF. U have a Ret QP telling you how to do your JOB. I thought you were the ones that are to tell the O's how to do the Eng stuff. Well, at least advise them on their (ENG) decisions; so were are you at here?
Off the rant
TR pretty good. :lifter
Type by funtcion:
Yes, they are a mixture of projectiles (105mm to 122mm to 155mm). First thing I see is no fuzes in the ordnance as pointed out by Pin and TR. So we have HE, FRAG- Safety hazard. By the color marking you can't tell if the turely are HE rds - WHY is this?? Look at it as if they had a payload ("Baseballs & Golfballs"(BLU 63) or ejection rounds (Illum) you may have a fire / WP Safety Hazard. Keep in mind that your safeties (SH) would be IAW the payload encountered within the pile. None in this one as far as we can see.
Yes you have to keep in I would also be concerned with potential booby-traps depending on situation and location. If you find them in a pile in the open to stacked in a room inside a building. Remember Booby-traps. Once BT is ruled out you could move everything to a SDA.
Charlies, no good answer on if you can move them. Yes we have how we would move these UXOs. But I want to know if you can, are 18 Series allowed to move, authorized to move a UXO, ETC.
If so, WHY or why NOT.
Disposal of Pile or UXOs.
Depending on the size of the disposal area you have or can set up, you could lay them out stacked 3 high depending on the room you have. Best to trench out an area to place these UXOs into. Keeping any WP / Illum will be placed in to the middle or on top to be blown up and expend all of the WP etc... as opposed to blowing it in the ground - not what you want to happen. WP keep in mind also that it "flies" out about 200 to 400 meters. HOT!! C-4 arcoss the tops, dual primed, and watch the fire works for a good SD for the FRAG distance.:p
What is the K-factor here?
Pinhead - good job... MAX_TAB ??'s answered??
x SF med
07-15-2006, 20:49
Mtngoat - I still like my answer best - but with no answers from C's (besides you) I'm wondering if I need to go back in as a C (think I could still do the job? I've already done the Q 2x and NBC school)
Mtngoat - I still like my answer best - but with no answers from C's (besides you) I'm wondering if I need to go back in as a C (think I could still do the job? I've already done the Q 2x and NBC school)
You know they always say that there are more 18B and C within Groups. I'm starting to think this 18X thing is filling the ranks and the 18Cs are out numbered now. :)
[QUOTE=MtnGoat]Okay got some hits on this one. Where are the current Charlies at??
4) How do you Charlie's move these UXO for Disposal? So can 18 Series move these UXOs?? WHY?
SO no answer on can we, 18 Series, move an UXO??
x SF med
07-27-2006, 08:33
MtnGoat-
It seems as if all of the Charlies are on leave or deployed at the moment. Or they are just scared that they're going to get it wrong, and are afraid of the wrath of the Goat falling down upon their heads.
IMVHO - they probably could be moved, if there was a possibility that BIP would create a hazard to indig civ pop, or local action - if it could be proved that all the WH were unfuzed and stable. Common sense says that if possible, BIP as long as no chem, WP, or bomblet capabilities are discovered. SF probably should not move them, unless they have access to trucks and a lot of manpower - from a correct use of manpower perspective, it's not the right thing to do.
I was both a bullet and a doc, and got out before some of the current Charlie's were born - therefore, my opinion is about as useful as a pimple on a gnat's ass - and carries about the same weight.
Well I think that you maybe right on the 18Cs beening deployed.
Seems like I forgot to post if you can move a UXO.
As per USASOC Reg 385-1 Chp 8, Section 8-7. the answer is
NO
You can not move a UXO. When can you destruction of a UXO munitions?
Combat? Peacetime?
When can you destruction of a UXO munitions?
Combat? Peacetime?
I’ll take a stab...
18 Series: only in designated hazardous duty operations, in peacetime (and I read that as not in a combat zone) call EOD. Let me know Goat!
I do recall working with (and this is no Sh!t) a Polish Engineer Company to clear an area for their BN compound in Kosovo. It was formerly a large Serbian AA gun emplacement and the zoomies dropped every kind of ordinance they had on it. The place was covered in UXO, we originally called in an EOD team but when they looked at it they said it would take them a year to clear it and we should move somewhere else. We cleared it in less than 2 weeks :eek: ...it was the scariest yet most amusing event I think I ever took part of! We sure did go thru lots of demo:cool: …I think we used up the Pol-Bats whole allotment for the entire deployment.
Ambush Master
09-27-2006, 21:48
My last 2-3 weeks at CCC (Kontum, RVN) I spent de-dudding the range!!! We had a bunker full of 2.75 FFs, that had failed to fire from the Cobras, and a bunch more damaged or otherwise corrupted ordinance. This stuff was everything from 60, 81, 4.2 mortar rounds to 40mm, hand grenades, and damaged ammo.
The Viets were tasked with the disposal, so they loaded up the Deuce & a Half + trailer up with this stuff to get rid of it. The LAST THING they loaded was the C4 and Det-Cord. Of course the FIRST THING off of the vehicles was what was loaded LAST!! They primed the C4, set it on the ground and then ubnloaded the vehicles, stacking all of the above ON TOP OF THE C4!!!
Needless to say, when it went off, it was all scattered over about 10 thousand squre meter area 100m X 100m. Since I was a short timer, opns were slow, I had had a propensity to mess with the demo and I was also qualified as a 12 (Combat Engineer) I was assigned the task of de-dudding!!!
I started off blowing everything in place. Then, after Billy Greenwood told me that I was not going to leave till it was cleared, I started moving anything that had a "Safety Device" still installed. This whole thing turned from being WOW THIS WILL BE FUN..to OH SHIT what have I gotten myself into. All went well and I even recruited a bunch of the Viets to help collect the UXO because they had to stay camped out on the range guarding the stuff until it was all gone.
Still amazed every day, that I ever saw my 23rd birthday!!!
Team Sergeant
09-28-2006, 09:11
They primed the C4, set it on the ground and then ubnloaded the vehicles, stacking all of the above ON TOP OF THE C4!!!
Needless to say, when it went off, it was all scattered over about 10 thousand squre meter area 100m X 100m.
I think my first team sergeant was supervising that disposal, he told me he did something just like that in Vietnam, sent UXO all over the country side....:rolleyes: (Must have been a weapons Sgt.:D)
Jack Moroney (RIP)
09-28-2006, 11:32
When can you destruction of a UXO munitions?
Combat? Peacetime?
I don't know what the reg says now, but when I used to get all my 18C (12Bs then) together for improvised demo training my basic rule was if you made it and it doesn't go, you blow it. Of course I accompanied them downrange which I think was more embarrassing for them than the razzing that they got from their peers.
AM: The day I took over Ben Het I grabbed my team sergeant and we started to walk the perimeter and went down to check out the Corps 8" and 175mm batteries that were inside outr perimeter for cross border support for you all. As we headed down the grade we saw someone running a firing wire back from this large crater left by 122 rocket fire and before we could find out what was happening they detonated it. Come to find out it was a variety of small arms, 8" and 175mm rounds, and associated UXO which shot a fire ball at least 100 feet high, a smoke column three or four times higher than that and sent a concussion wave strong enought to make an incoming chopper damn near fall out of the sky. UXO, now supersensitized, went everywhere. The only good thing about all of this was that the chopper belonged to the feckless fourth division brigade commander who was ripped. Of course he thought we had done it and wanted us to find every UXO and destroy it-to which I replied in my normal tactful and respectful manner that he could get his own troops to do it. I did volunteer to have my demo guys give his weenies a class on proper disposal of duds-both metallic and two legged.
I don't know what the reg says now, but when I used to get all my 18C (12Bs then) together for improvised demo training my basic rule was if you made it and it doesn't go, you blow it. Of course I accompanied them downrange which I think was more embarrassing for them than the razzing that they got from their peers.
[QUOTE=SF18C]I’ll take a stab...
18 Series: only in designated hazardous duty operations, in peacetime (and I read that as not in a combat zone) call EOD. Let me know Goat!
QUOTE]
Well by the Reg... it doesn't matter whether your in Combat or in a training environment you must meet certain conditions. The biggest one was you had to be OCONUS. State side you should be calling EOD from the post your on to clear the range. Most Post that SF Groups are on have an EOD Company that they can train with. Hell on Bragg we have a EOD BN now, so there will be four EOD Comanies. The UXO had to be smaller than 120mm and for COL Moroney, the biggest one is you fired it and it duded. You clean it. From the mouth of Mr. Knight; it came from USSF going on MTTs or JECTs and leaving XUOs on a farmers field during the winter. Then he comes back to have a goat or sheep blown up in the summer.
In Combat we don't have EOD TECHs embedded with ODAs, as do the SEAL with their SEAL Platoons. So the 18C is the TECH - clear the way!!
Name the below on this UXO.
1) Type by function of UXOs.
2) Safety Hazards for them.
3) BIP method?
4) How do you Charlie's move thisUXO for Disposal?
Goat Bandit
03-05-2007, 13:30
This is the Soviet PMN-2 AP landmine. I'm not an 18C so I'm out of my league here. Because the fuse is blast resistant, I would guess that it requires a special charge to BIP. Something like a shaped charge.
1) Type by function- Soviet PMN-2 Anti-personnel/Blast Landmine
2) Safety hazards- HE, FRAG, C/S, BT, Movement
3) BIP- I would use a small EFP if it was available, or depending on location/terrain shoot it with the barrett.
4) I would not attempt to move this mine.
The Reaper
03-07-2007, 19:51
Since an opinion has already been rendered, as far as moving it goes, I do not think that it was emplaced on that stack of bags, so I suspect that someone has already moved it.
An anti-handling device would appear to be unlikely in that location, but in the ground, I would be highly suspect and would look to BIP.
TR
Since an opinion has already been rendered, as far as moving it goes, I do not think that it was emplaced on that stack of bags, so I suspect that someone has already moved it.
An anti-handling device would appear to be unlikely in that location, but in the ground, I would be highly suspect and would look to BIP.
TR
Great points, I agree. Although, I would say that moving it would be a job for the locals.
1) Type by function- Soviet PMN-2 Anti-personnel/Blast Landmine
2) Safety hazards- HE, FRAG, C/S, BT, Movement
3) BIP- I would use a small EFP if it was available, or depending on location/terrain shoot it with the barrett.
4) I would not attempt to move this mine.
All above right... good job future Chuck!!
I BIP with C-4 bent into a "C" shape as to bridge the mine over the top, I used more C-4 for some bulk explosive items in the room.
PMNs were placed trying to "trip" us up or local (HN) forces upon entering buildings.
Hotshot - As far as the moving..DON"T!! Its best to BIP everything. If U think or know that munitions or mines has some type of AHD or BT why would U have a local move it?? U have to work within the area and U telling a local to move something to end up with a hand missing or even an arm.... think about your action and the impact they have on your team and the local option. Why make a HN Solider do it, then U have to deal with treating them and MEDEVACing them, usually an hour wait time. Its a double edge sword and a thin line to walk.
No AHD as far as movement on the PMA, but a AHD as far a disarming. once armed you must blow in place. Just like the Yugo PMA (AP Mine), its all in the Fuse.
Since an opinion has already been rendered, as far as moving it goes, I do not think that it was emplaced on that stack of bags, so I suspect that someone has already moved it.
An anti-handling device would appear to be unlikely in that location, but in the ground, I would be highly suspect and would look to BIP.
TR
Very true TR.. They were found in the doorway into a "home", no it wasn't moved it. They were covered by some fabric on top of the bags, another mine was on the other side of the bags and fabrics. As to "catch" someone stepping over the bags. Tricky little bas&^%$!!
spartanfed182
06-04-2007, 22:48
What is this item, specifically, and why is it a very nasty little bugger?
TR
Looks broken, and I follow the rule. "You break it, You bought it."
:munchin
Gentlemen,
IF it blows and you were too close, I get to visit with you. Some times I can help but sometimes I can't even find you.
A SF Medic, Sends.;)
Thought I'd add this if you don't mind. I'm by no means an expert on this subject. Being I'm a Police Sergeant out here in the Marshall Islands I'm the first responder to any and all UXO incidents within my AO. I have an outstanding working relationship with EOD and have assisted them with numerous UXO demolition operations.
The pictures you see here were taken on a deserted island within the Kwajalein Atoll. The locals use this island and others like it to hunt on. Occasionally they will come across UXO. The teens you see in the attached photo are the ones who reported this UXO. They were out collecting Coconut Crabs and fishing. For what ever reason, before I arrived the locals never reported UXO sightings. They have been lucky, for in the past 20 years there has only been one UXO related fatality that is known of. A child while camping on an island threw some UXO into a fire and was killed when it detonated.
I have formed a very good relationship with the locals out here and have learned a great deal of their language. Now it seems I can't get them to stop reporting UXO sightings. This is a good thing though! Just a couple weeks ago I accompanied a friend of mine to a remote part of the reef where he came upon seven Japanese Type 97 Land Bombs while he was long-netting.
Anyway, I thought this may be a good addition to this thread for ID purposes. I know what it is. Then again, this is not some “exotic” piece like a few of the others listed in this thread.
If anyone is interested, all the UXO out here are the result of Operation Flintlock during WWII.
Respectfully,
I want to see pictures of all the other WWII Stuff you found:munchin
Sounds like a cool job. When I asked the 1st Group guys about souvenir hunting they said it was illegal. I have no idea about the shell in the Picture thou.
The Reaper
11-26-2007, 17:28
Looks like a 5"/38 caliber HE shell to me, with a mechanically fused nose.
Could be the Japanese equivalent, or possibly a piece of land based artillery in the 5"-6" class.
TR
The Reaper
11-26-2007, 18:25
Correct; American Naval round. It was orignally thought to be a WP round. EOD realized their mistake when frag splashed around our boat at the staging point. None hit the boat though.
kgoerz,
Here is some UXO found just yesterday. Have no idea what it is. EOD does not yet either. We have a little contest to see who can ID the things first. They are over 50 miles away from my location and have to respond via chopper ASAP for large UXO or any UXO that poses an immediate threat to civilians. EOD will be up tomorrow to detonate this thing.
Very hard to tell in that condition. Best to BIP to be safe.
If I had to guess, I would call it a stick grenade, small mortar round, or rifle grenade. Appears to be less than 50mm in diameter, and judging from the corrosion, at least partially copper. Could be a 37mm or 40mm projo.
FYI, WP rounds are normally base ejecting, if you can see the bottom and it is still closed, the round is likely not a WP.
TR
The Japanese also had some small "Knee Mortars" in the 52mm range that had lots of copper on the bottom of the Projo, of course in that condition, there is no way of knowing.
Cool Pics Gladan!, Keep em coming.
Good times,
Blake
I posted too soon it would seem
Link (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.inert-ord.net/jap02h/knee/50knee3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.inert-ord.net/jap02h/knee/index.html&h=302&w=272&sz=20&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=c1g8C7_KvCxNtM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djapanese%2Bknee%2Bmortar%26gbv%3D2%26 svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)
I posted too soon it would seem
Link (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.inert-ord.net/jap02h/knee/50knee3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.inert-ord.net/jap02h/knee/index.html&h=302&w=272&sz=20&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=c1g8C7_KvCxNtM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djapanese%2Bknee%2Bmortar%26gbv%3D2%26 svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)
LOL! Yea, two minutes too soon! Funny....
The Reaper
11-26-2007, 21:15
I posted too soon it would seem
Link (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.inert-ord.net/jap02h/knee/50knee3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.inert-ord.net/jap02h/knee/index.html&h=302&w=272&sz=20&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=c1g8C7_KvCxNtM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djapanese%2Bknee%2Bmortar%26gbv%3D2%26 svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)
Yeah, but his pic does not appear to have the safety pins in it any more.:D
TR
Ambush Master
11-26-2007, 21:22
If your EOD folks haven't already warned you, the Japanese used a LOT of Picric as the explosive filler!! That stuff, when combined with the metal casings, turns into some un-Godly sensitive explosives!!!
Take care.
Martin
Team Sergeant
11-27-2007, 08:54
We were on a demo range in Okinawa, EOD runs those ranges so they have to be there when we used them.
We're setting up and EOD walks up with a few " WWII satchel cherges" they had "found" in a bunker.
On close inspection the bags were leaking clear liquid......:rolleyes:
EOD asked us to be "gentle" in handling them.......:rolleyes:
We tried to get the Jr. Weapons man to take one, run onto the demo range, pull a fuse igniter and throw it, fuze burning, while we took pictures, he wouldn't go for it.:D
TS
[QUOTEWe tried to get the Jr. Weapons man to take one, run onto the demo range, pull a fuse igniter and throw it, fuze burning, while we took pictures, he wouldn't go for it.:DTS[/QUOTE]
LOL - It was more than likely the fear of Ernie T finding out and kicking whats left of his ass........
The Reaper
11-27-2007, 13:07
I would not be moving that stuff around if it were not my job, but you are the one who has his ass on the line. What do you think usually causes the UXO to blow and injure civilians?
Grenades that have been activated and dudded are very bad, as are any munitions with a pizeo-electric type fuze (usually PIBD fuzed rounds).
The 5"/38 round in question does not look that much different from the previous one, other than placement, what made it so dangerous?
One M-112 Charge Block of C-4 should be sufficient, if properly placed, not sure why the first did not work, unless it were misplaced or not directly in contact with the UXO. I have seen several 155mm rounds blown with single blocks, and the 5"/38 is smaller.
What it above the smoke plume in the last photo? Looks like a tire carcass. Did they put something over it as a tamp or damper? Maybe a bomb blanket?
TR
The Reaper
11-27-2007, 14:14
SECOND ATTEMPT:
2 ea, M112 Demo Charge (2.5 lbs N.E.W.)
4 each CAP, BLASTING, M7, NON-ELECTRIC, (0.0249 lbs NEW)
24 feet Time, Fuse, Blasting M700 (0.0648 lbs NEW)
10 feet Cord, Detonating ( 0.07 lbs NEW)
4 each IGNITER, TIME, BLASTING, M60 (.0004 lbs N.E.W.)
Total counter charge NEW 2.6275 lbs
Total combined NEW Detonated was 6.2275 lbs"
That's why I didn't open my mouth about the C4! I didn't know what you just said. I just found it strange that four blocks would be used on one UXO while one block would be used for another - especially on one that was considered that much more dangerious. Again, especially since our boat and us were nearly fragged. After the fact we were laughing about it because we nearly stayed on the island (very small) for the detonation - the EOD boss changed his mind at the last minute.
You are correct about the tire. In the pictures you can see the "protective works" in place. Three feet of sand and dirt were piled around the UXO while it sat on the ground in the middle of two large tractor tires. They wanted to reduce the exlusion area to 500 feet because of that sail-boat you see in the lagoon. That and there were buildings near by.
I truly appreciate your advice and words on this subject! Thanks!
G:
Neither you, nor I, are competent to make a visual determination of what is inert, versus what is a very sensitive item. The problem here is that you can make 50 good decisions, or be lucky 50 times, and the next one kills you. Since handling ordnance is what kills civilians, it may be what kills you as well. I would take photos, give them my opinion, and keep the curious away, but I would not be moving items on my own that may have a 65 year old explosive filler and multiple triggers. Not your job, IMHO. That is why they get the extra money.
There is either a typo, or a miscount in your charge list above. There are FOUR, not TWO M-112 charge blocks in the photo, that is a NEW of 5.0 pounds of C-4, NOT 2.5.
It is also not configured as a counter-charge. Curious.
Thanks for sharing, very interesting.
TR
The Reaper
11-28-2007, 14:38
First three pics appear to be a Jap frag grenade, pin intact.
The lineup looks like a stripper clip of Jap 7.7mm rifle rounds, next looks like a portion of a cartridge case (could tell more easily with close-up or other end), the grenade, two fuses, a nose cone (may contain a fuse), and the last two items are beyond my photo analysis capability.
Nice shots and great history lesson.
TR
This is a good site with a program to ID UXO and Ordance.
ORDATA II (http://http://maic.jmu.edu/ordata/Mission.asp)
Must 18Cs where getting CD-ROM as "Take-away" but from what I can tell not anymore. We passed this out to students as one of them. 18Cs can't get the 60 series so this is the next best. I guess :confused: Ask your Post EOD units and you'll be surprised Charles of what they will "pass" out to you. Just have to ask.
Join training is great too!! :lifter
I would not be moving that stuff around if it were not my job, but you are the one who has his ass on the line. What do you think usually causes the UXO to blow and injure civilians?
Grenades that have been activated and dudded are very bad, as are any munitions with a pizeo-electric type fuze (usually PIBD fuzed rounds).
The 5"/38 round in question does not look that much different from the previous one, other than placement, what made it so dangerous?
One M-112 Charge Block of C-4 should be sufficient, if properly placed, not sure why the first did not work, unless it were misplaced or not directly in contact with the UXO. I have seen several 155mm rounds blown with single blocks, and the 5"/38 is smaller.
What it above the smoke plume in the last photo? Looks like a tire carcass. Did they put something over it as a tamp or damper? Maybe a bomb blanket?
TR
Reaper,
I agree with your assessment 100%! No attempt to move this item should have been made and absolutely no attempt at a high-order detonation since civilians were in the area!
While a low-order det with a Baldrick could have been attempted, the SAFEST method would have been a low-order det using a Vulcan Disrupter. A magnesium disk is shot into the explosive cavity at its weakest point. The disk begins a slow burn on the explosive fill. There would be a requirement to build a surround encompassing the target just in case there is an unintended high-order det.
After the explosive fill is burned, a Baldrick could then be used to detonate the fuse of the device.
We used this technique with great success in the Balkans. There are other ways to remove this item, but IMHO, this is the safest under peacetime conditions.
BTW: Gladan, did you know your name means "hungry" in Serbian?
:rolleyes:Sorry - duplicate post. I can't figure out how to delete it.
Reaper,
I agree with your assessment 100%! No attempt to move this item should have been made and absolutely no attempt at a high-order detonation since civilians were in the area!
While a low-order det with a Baldrick could have been attempted, the SAFEST method would have been a low-order det using a Vulcan Disrupter. A magnesium disk is shot into the explosive cavity at its weakest point. The disk begins a slow burn on the explosive fill. There would be a requirement to build a surround encompassing the target just in case there is an unintended high-order det.
After the explosive fill is burned, a Baldrick could then be used to detonate the fuse of the device.
We used this technique with great success in the Balkans. There are other ways to remove this item, but IMHO, this is the safest under peacetime conditions.
Agree with all of the above. If you can't order any premade charges or Disrupter or "flares" then think about shaping your C-4 into Shape charges. Simple Ways and the lower the amount of C-4 you need. I'll look on the need for a book that you can maybe order. Maybe somewhere like Ebay may have one or two. Seem them before on there.
BTW - Love reading and looking through your post Gladan! Dobar Veche svetlo...
Okay 18C name the below on this munition.
Name the following:
1) Type by function
2) Safety Hazards
3) What weapon "fires" this warhead.
4) Type and name of Fuze.
5) BIP method?
Attached Thumbnails
__________________
CAT: DROPPED
SUBCAT: SUBMUNTION
TYPE: HEAT
FUZE: IMPACT INERTIA
SAFETIES: HE FRAG MOVE FIRE JET WT
that is for the yellow submuntion
techbomber
02-26-2012, 06:25
If possible, show me a picture with a measuring tape along side. As well as any markings that it may show. If for some reason I can't give you an exact answer, I can narrow it down to about three items.
I can also do this with any piece of ordnance seen since about the Civil War.