Prescription drugs

[incommin]

'Poison pill' kills drug import plan
Safety provision blocks reform push in Senate

By Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, Tribune Newspapers: Los Angeles Times; Tribune staff reporter Ray Long in Springfield and The Associated Press contributed to this report
Published May 8, 2007


WASHINGTON -- The Senate on Monday effectively killed a measure that would have let Americans buy prescription medicines from foreign suppliers, which sponsors said could have saved consumers billions of dollars.

By a 49-40 vote, senators approved a provision requiring the government to certify that imports are safe -- a step the Bush administration is unlikely to take. The amendment, offered by Sen. Thad Cochran (R-Miss.), was seen as a major victory for the pharmaceutical industry.
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Good or bad idea?????


Jim

[82ndtrooper]

"A major victory for the pharacuetical industry" Perhaps, but how many of you would be willing to swallow a fist full of pills that had not been reviewed for quality control of ingredients and end user side effects ?

The FDA may have it's slow grinding process of approving drugs and sometimes not approving drugs, but there is some argument that the FDA serves the greater good and is not the monster that some liberals make them out to be. Certain foreign drugs are available, however most are labeled under "investigative study" In other words, if you want to be part of a study for a new and improved type of drug, then you sign off on any liability or civil action type law suits should you become worse or even die from treatment.

It's hard enough to keep drugs manufactured and approved right here in the U.S. on the shelves without allowing drugs to flow into the states for purchase by consumers without knowing what the chemical composition of those drugs might be. Aspiren may be one thing, but do you really want to start taking a drug that has not met FDA standards and disclosure of their side effects. Imagine taking the foreign equivalent of your high blood pressure medication. Doctors would be washed of any liability and you would have no recourse to civil action should this medicine have the side effect of long term type 2 diabetes. I took a perfectly good drug approved by the FDA years ago and still wound with weight gain and now type 2 diabetes. It's currently in the beginning stages of a class action law suit involving some 1.2 million patients that have taken it long term when it was found to be only a short term medication. We'd have very little recourse for damages and or suffering if we opted out for the cheaper alternative. Benign medications may be a start, but anything more complicated than common Aspiren or Percocet would be a big chance the consumer would take.

Right now you can actually have a conference call with a doctor and a nurse and purchase precription pain medication out of Mexico and Canada without the doctor ever seeing you with his or her own eyes. How many pain killer abusers are using this for their daily utopian high ?

If cheaper altenatives were used merely for cost reduction, then what would the better alternative be worth to you ?

Just my .02

[Kyobanim]

The drugs are cheaper in Europe because the goverment controls the pricing. They are made, for the most part, by the same companies that make them here. The difference is there are just no price controls here.

The drug companies will charge whatever they can get away with. Sure, they invest a lot in development but why should we, as a nation, be the ones that carry the whole burdon? And do you really think they won't get their money in the long run? Generics don't kick in for a long time, they mae sure of that.

Congress screwed the pooch on this one. Thank you Drug Company Lobby and a special thanks to the congress critters that took their money and screwed the people they are sworn to protect.

Is this a great country to be a polititian in or what?

[Pete]

There seems to be a little flap about dog food right now. Appears to be a bit of a problem in getting cooperation on inspection of facilities in China.

I think it would be worse with drugs.

I like dogs but would rather it happen to them and not my family.

Pete

[Peregrino]

I'm pretty sure the issue is not alternative drugs, but rather the same exact drugs(chemically identical), manufactured OCONUS, often in factories owned by the same giant multinational drug companies, that are being banned from import. I can't believe it's an FDA quality control issue (since the foreign governments - usually European - also have stringent quality control measures) so much as it's an effort to force American consumers to continue supporting the obscene profits of the drug companies. One needs only look at the current practice of licensing new uses for existing pharmaceuticals in an effort to prolong the patents (and the profits) and prevent the marketing of generics. Let's ponder some rhetorical questions while we're at it:

Would prescription drug prices in the US be so high if everybody had to pay "out of pocket" for all of their medications?
How long until they kill the goose?
Why should American consumers shoulder the burden of subsidizing the world's pharmaceutical research?

:munchin Peregrino

[x SF med]

OCONUS governmental restrictions and interventions hit all markets - the higher tax rates for socialized medicine and social services leave less useable income for the residents of those countries.... according to the governmental mouthpieces. While I was working in publishing, we had to lower the prices of the exact same college textbooks we sold in the US for the OCONUS markets, because they would plead poverty. Interestingly enough, a good portion of those same textbooks would come right back into the US market at the same price as the books sold here (amazon.uk, barnes and noble. uk, and other 'reputable' US owned companies were huge offenders in the purchase of items overseas for sale in the US).

We can't just blame our government, we have to blame our manufacturers for placing the burden of R&D and marketing squarely on the shoulders of the US consumers.

[incommin]

Isn't most drug research done in the US financed with tax money and grants?


Jim

[x SF med]

Isn't most drug research done in the US financed with tax money and grants?


Jim


Hell, NO! We as consumers pay for it, prior to the patent running out - it's amortized over the life of the product with the heaviest burden falling on the first 1/3 of the product's life (front loaded recapture).

All of the costs of the initial research, development, approval process, machinery, and formulary of these drugs, plus a nice healthy profit is picked up by the consumer.

Federal law does not allow for patented drugs to be sold at different prices to similar US customers, except if there is a volume discount available to all customers, or if one of the customers is a public health service (governmental reduction) based on the Robinson-Patman Antitrust Act (can't remember if it was 1941 or 1931). But Patman does not pertain to sales outside the borders of the US for sales designated to stay outside the US. (damn, I have been doing this finance/operations crap for way too long)

[The Reaper]

"A major victory for the pharacuetical industry" Perhaps, but how many of you would be willing to swallow a fist full of pills that had not been reviewed for quality control of ingredients and end user side effects ?

Anyone taking a vitamin or supplement already does that.

This was a move that clearly showed that the Congress has been bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical companies.

All Chinese food imports should be suspended till the investigation is over. That would speed it up tremendously.

I agree with Peregrino, these are the same meds we take, sold overseas for less because there is competition there. You don't see hordes of Europeans or Canadians dying from bad meds, do you? I too, am tired of footing the pharm industry R&D bill for the world.

TR

[82ndtrooper]

Anyone taking a vitamin or supplement already does that.

This was a move that clearly showed that the Congress has been bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical companies.

All Chinese food imports should be suspended till the investigation is over. That would speed it up tremendously.

I agree with Peregrino, these are the same meds we take, sold overseas for less because there is competition there. You don't see hordes of Europeans or Canadians dying from bad meds, do you? I too, am tired of footing the pharm industry R&D bill for the world.

TR

Are we not importing enough "generic" drugs already ? I cant remember the last time I was actually given a prescription for a drug that did not have a generic counterpart available. I use the VA system and I can only name one drug that was not a generic drug. It cost $149 for a vile of nasal spray made by Roxane Labortories. Luckily the VA only charged my $7.00 at the time.

Roxane Labortories is wholly owned susidiary of Boerhinger Ingelheim labortories located in Ingelheim, Germany with 155 susidiaries around the globe directing research and and development of various drugs that are used world wide. This is one example of drug company that is not U.S. based that is requiring higher costs for their medications. This may not be the norm, but it seems the Germans and other nations are paying the R&D costs as much as the U.S. At least in this case. Their reported revenues for 2006 were DM 8.7 billion translated to( U.S. $4.79 billion) In this case it seems that the R&D costs were not soley on the shoulders of the U.S. This particular companies R&D cost were approximatley 18% of the DM 8.7 billion. They rank among the top 20 Pharmo companies world wide. Most of the R&D costs are funed with grants from foundations as well through consumer sales of the drugs approved. Howard Hughes gifted some $50 million of his airline stock to his not for profit hospital for R&D purposes. Which today is one of the leading research facilities in the U.S. He later said that if Juan Tripp wanted his airline then he'd have to get into the medical research business and gift his foundation his own airline stock. Howard Hughes Medical Institute. I'm not trying to say that the consumer doesn't pick up some of the cost, just that the burden of R&D is split between consumer and philanthropy. The liberals would be shocked to know that the U.S. Oil companies have given billions of dollars to medical research over the years. That's fairly significant, at least to me.



I'd be interested in what drugs and what companies they wanted to be able to import from. At the moment, we seem to be importing more than our fair share.

Just my .02

[incommin]

Hell, NO! We as consumers pay for it, prior to the patent running out - it's amortized over the life of the product with the heaviest burden falling on the first 1/3 of the product's life (front loaded recapture).

All of the costs of the initial research, development, approval process, machinery, and formulary of these drugs, plus a nice healthy profit is picked up by the consumer.

Federal law does not allow for patented drugs to be sold at different prices to similar US customers, except if there is a volume discount available to all customers, or if one of the customers is a public health service (governmental reduction) based on the Robinson-Patman Antitrust Act (can't remember if it was 1941 or 1931). But Patman does not pertain to sales outside the borders of the US for sales designated to stay outside the US. (damn, I have been doing this finance/operations crap for way too long)

Then the universities and National Institue of Health contributes nothing?

Jim

[The Reaper]

Are we not importing enough "generic" drugs already ? I cant remember the last time I was actually given a prescription for a drug that did not have a generic counterpart available. I use the VA system and I can only name one drug that was not a generic drug. It cost $149 for a vile of nasal spray made by Roxane Labortories. Luckily the VA only charged my $7.00 at the time.

Roxane Labortories is wholly owned susidiary of Boerhinger Ingelheim labortories located in Ingelheim, Germany with 155 susidiaries around the globe directing research and and development of various drugs that are used world wide. This is one example of drug company that is not U.S. based that is requiring higher costs for their medications. This may not be the norm, but it seems the Germans and other nations are paying the R&D costs as much as the U.S. At least in this case. Their reported revenues for 2006 were DM 8.7 billion translated to( U.S. $4.79 billion) In this case it seems that the R&D costs were not soley on the shoulders of the U.S. This particular companies R&D cost were approximatley 18% of the DM 8.7 billion. They rank among the top 20 Pharmo companies world wide. Most of the R&D costs are funed with grants from foundations as well through consumer sales of the drugs approved. Howard Hughes gifted some $50 million of his airline stock to his not for profit hospital for R&D purposes. Which today is one of the leading research facilities in the U.S. He later said that if Juan Tripp wanted his airline then he'd have to get into the medical research business and gift his foundation his own airline stock. Howard Hughes Medical Institute. I'm not trying to say that the consumer doesn't pick up some of the cost, just that the burden of R&D is split between consumer and philanthropy. The liberals would be shocked to know that the U.S. Oil companies have given billions of dollars to medical research over the years. That's fairly significant, at least to me.

I'd be interested in what drugs and what companies they wanted to be able to import from. At the moment, we seem to be importing more than our fair share.

Just my .02

An excellent study is the process by which drug companies fight generics being made of their drugs coming off patent.

They can sometimes keep companies from producing generics for two or three years after the expiration of the patent, costing consumers billions of dollars.

I too, get my meds from the VA, and the fact that they are generics does not bother me in the least. It might, if they were coming from China.

TR

[Pete]

.....An excellent study is the process by which drug companies fight generics being made of their drugs coming off patent.
TR


I don't have the details of this but read elsewhere that one South American country just started to refuse to recognize our patent on a drug and a SE Asian country followed suite.

If that becomes the norm how long will it take for "Big Pharm" to say "To heck with it, why bother developing new drugs - there's no money in it."

I'm sure the world governments will step in and do a better job. After all, It's for the Children.:rolleyes:

Pete

[82ndtrooper]

I don't have the details of this but read elsewhere that one South American country just started to refuse to recognize our patent on a drug and a SE Asian country followed suite.

If that becomes the norm how long will it take for "Big Pharm" to say "To heck with it, why bother developing new drugs - there's no money in it."

I'm sure the world governments will step in and do a better job. After all, It's for the Children.:rolleyes:

Pete

I believe Pete that is the "Catch 22" part of the problem. Another is to attract intelligent chemist and bio-chemist into the research side of the industry. How do we incent them ? Large salaries and incentive bonuses for development of the first and best drug for what ever ails ya. If there is socialized medicine, then who is going to want to spend years becoming a Phd level chemist to earn a wage equal to that of the common electrician. (No offense to electricians)

There's no clear answer to the problem.

[x SF med]

Then the universities and National Institue of Health contributes nothing?

Jim

Universities get grants (which are put onto the Pharma Balance Sheets as development costs) from the Pharma companies. NIH is funded by the taxpayers, and the research is available to academic and business communities - NIH does get some funding from the Pharma Companies, but they in turn get some of the best scientists in the world doing work for them from both academia and NIH, at a substantially reduced cost than if these same scientists were employees.

Academia and NIH both contribute hugely to the development, but reap very little of the profits to be made.

[mdb23]

In my opinion, Reaper nailed every point on this one.

As far as the "quality control" issues are concerned, we are talking about drugs manufactured in the EU and Canada..... not Djibouti. When Canadian, en masse, begin dropping dead due to their consumption of inferior meds, I will be concerned. Until then, I will feel comfortable taking a Canadian made antibiotic. LOL

The "there will be no incetive to produce meds" argument also holds no water with me. The companies that develop these drugs will still hold patents on them, and will still be the sole manufacturer and distributor of their discoveries for years (charging whatever they want)... and then they will fight to extend the patent so they can monopolize the market even further. The profits that they make will still be windfall in nature, especially when one considers that much of the R&D costs are shouldered by the US taxpayer in the form of grants and hospital/university studies. Besides, European companies have no problem conducting R&D, despite the lower prices on their drugs. If they can manage, so will we.

In my opinion, this is greed, pure and simple. We are slowly becoming a chemically dependent nation, and the pharmaceutical companies are rolling in it. They don't want to see that go....

Ever sit back, watch TV, and count the number of commercials asking YOU to ask your doctor about Drug X, Y, Z? Isn't that unethical in some way? How about the fact that drug company reps (my friend is one) go to doctors and REWARD them with golf trips, hunting trips, you name it for "doing a good job" and prescribing their drug X number of times? Sounds bizarre to me, but hey...

As I once heard someone say, "When you start telling your doctor what meds you want, he is no longer your doctor..... he is your dealer."

I think a little free market competition would be good for the US manufacturers.... let them have a little competition, see if they still "have" to charge $123 per pill....

[Sionnach]

I don't have the details of this but read elsewhere that one South American country just started to refuse to recognize our patent on a drug and a SE Asian country followed suite.

If that becomes the norm how long will it take for "Big Pharm" to say "To heck with it, why bother developing new drugs - there's no money in it."

I'm sure the world governments will step in and do a better job. After all, It's for the Children.:rolleyes:

Pete

This is what I'm afraid will happen. Government price controls and unrecognized patents will cause the big pharmaceutical companies to stop spending the money on research and development. Greed, not just necessity, is the mother of invention. I know it sucks if you're the person paying, but the alternative is worse. I spent four hours in the emergency room when I didn't have health insurance, and it cost me $5,000, but not having an emergency room available would have been worse.

Many drug companies offer programs to help folks that can't afford the drugs to get them for free or at a reduced cost. http://www.peoples-law.org/health/charity-care/special_drug.htm

[incommin]

If we truly believe in a free market in our capitalistic society then the pharmaceutical companies should not be protected from competition. They do not pay all the costs associated with new drugs in most cases.......yet they get the rewards as if they did.

Jim

[The Reaper]

I don't have the details of this but read elsewhere that one South American country just started to refuse to recognize our patent on a drug and a SE Asian country followed suite.

If that becomes the norm how long will it take for "Big Pharm" to say "To heck with it, why bother developing new drugs - there's no money in it."

I'm sure the world governments will step in and do a better job. After all, It's for the Children.:rolleyes:

Pete

If the pharm companies refuse to ship them any meds, or to allow licensed dealers to ship to them either, I expect that the issue should be resolved pretty quickly.

This reminds me of the claims by one of the core Bird Flu countries (Indonesia, IIRC) that they would refuse to cooperate with authorities unless they were provided free meds in return. So you will only give us the disease if you get free drugs? Right. How about we just quarrantine your country till the disease has run its course or till we develop a vaccine without you?:rolleyes:

TR

[kgoerz]

If the pharm companies refuse to ship them any meds, or to allow licensed dealers to ship to them either, I expect that the issue should be resolved pretty quickly.

This reminds me of the claims by one of the core Bird Flu countries (Indonesia, IIRC) that they would refuse to cooperate with authorities unless they were provided free meds in return. So you will only give us the disease if you get free drugs? Right. How about we just quarrantine your country till the disease has run its course or till we develop a vaccine without you?:rolleyes:

TR

Indo is also the one Country that didn't sign up for the Region wide Anti Smoking campaign. Bunch of countries in that region decided to go to war on tobacco. Finally figured out what smoking was coasting them, health wise. Indo has one of the highest rates of lung disease now. When I was there it seemed everyone had a smoke in their hand.
As far as on line Meds. I had to use the net for an emergency. I thought for sure I would get ripped off. It was the real thing as far as I could tell. I can't believe they don't try to stop it. Maybe hard core opiate's are harder to get then the mild meds I ordered, but they were prescription Meds either way.

I heard generic Viagra is as good as the commercial kind. Anyone know if this is true?

[The Reaper]

I heard generic Viagra is as good as the commercial kind. Anyone know if this is true?

Wouldn't know personally, haven't tried it, but IIRC, the patent for Viagra is too new to have generics on the market.

Are you referring to the competing meds?

TR

[Roycroft201]

Something has to be done.

After a month of being poked and prodded during a short hospital stay (where they cook their vegetables in soapy dish water...I would swear to it :mad: ), I'm going to be home a little while before having to go back in for another brief stay. So, I was given a prescription by my dr. which I took to my pharmacy yesterday.

$500 per MONTH for one medication......I almost had a stroke on the spot !
(My health plan will reimburse me 80% but I have to lay out the money when obtaining the meds.)

This is absolutely crazy.

All the remarks made in this thread about the drug companies and the drug lobbies are spot on.



(Haven't we discussed nominating TR for President ?)

RC201

[kgoerz]

Wouldn't know personally, haven't tried it, but IIRC, the patent for Viagra is too new to have generics on the market.

Are you referring to the competing meds?

TR

Yes, then it would have to be the competing meds. I'm referring to overseas also. It's sold over the counter here. One Viagra is around four bucks. But what they call Generic Viagra is about 50 cents per pill, same Mg count. Almost forgot, it was for a friend.

[mugwump]

;) "I'm aces, other than this trouser tent."

True story. I was in a Phase I research clinic in Canterbury, England (not Wales, as sometimes reported) in '91? or '92? when the above words were uttered by a normal, healthy volunteer who had been given a drug called UK-92,480. Pfizer hoped it would lower blood pressure, but it was better at making "trouser tents". Viagra was born.

The doctor who first put two and two together, and the hottie nurse called Georgia who caused the erections were both cut loose when the reasearch unit was closed. Each should have gotten a million pound bonus. Especially Georgia. Maybe two million.

Georgia was named after Stalin's birthplace -- her Dad was an Oxford Commie. OMG, she had a smokin' body, a broken nose, and a scar on her cheek. I don't know why but the combination was just hot. When she walked by all conversation stopped...<staring off into space>.

Funny, I can't remember the doctor's name but I can still remember Georgia's perfume.