View Full Version : Sarkozy elected French president
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05-06-2007, 13:20
http://today.reuters.com/misc/PrinterFriendlyPopup.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-05-06T181532Z_01_L06633468_RTRUKOC_0_US-FRANCE-ELECTION.xml
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Sionnach
05-06-2007, 15:19
On the surface, he seems better than Chirac or the Socialist. We shall see...
I wonder, how is he going to "get closer" to the US without angering the French Sheeple who see to be staunchly anti-US.
All I cared about was the Woman not winning. Not because she is a woman. I didn't want to hear SHillary make comparisons between us and France.
I noticed in the article on AOL, they said that the French only have a 35-hour work week (!?!). So they have a 35-hour work-week right now, lots of state-funded programs, and they wonder why their economy isn't all that great!?
Some countries have legally mandated work hours and vacation day minimums. France has a 35 hour work week and a 5 week vacation minimum by law. The EU has imposed a 48 hour maximim work week directive that applies to every member except the UK. Most Europeans have 20 - 30, or more, days vacation a year.
Other work force perks, Spain has a 3 week "honeymoon leave" fully paid for just marrieds. Sweden gives 360 days of maternity leave at 80% of full salary. Plus there's still national holidays.
The work week is one of the things the new French president is looking at changing.
The Reaper
05-07-2007, 11:16
Hence the lower productivity and loss of GDP under socialism. Three shifts per day turn in 15 man-hours less work per week, for every three employees, requiring an extra employee for every seven workers to equal a 40-hour work week. If you factor in the month long vacations, you are probably closer to an extra employee for every five or six workers.
And they still have chronic un/underemployment.:rolleyes:
TR
Would have been interesting if this guy had been President in 2003, the French Army might've gone into Iraq maybe. So we have a conservative American President, and a left-wing French President, then we get a conservative French President, and right now it looks like we will end up with a left-wing American President.
I noticed in the article on AOL, they said that the French only have a 35-hour work week (!?!). So they have a 35-hour work-week right now, lots of state-funded programs, and they wonder why their economy isn't all that great!?
They probably still would not have gone to Iraq if Sarkozy was president instead of Chirac at the time. Sarkozy and Chirac are in the same party albeit in different factions of it, the UMP which is the main party on the right. Also they both are in the network of Institut d'Etudes Politiques de Paris alum that pretty much run France. I would say Chirac is not on the left-wing but is a Gaullist which falls on the right and President Bush is not a conservative, but that’s another time.
It was not in France’s national interest to go into Iraq in my opinion . They also know from their history never to go to war for “moral” reasons, since medieval France blew a lot of its power and advantages on the Middle Eastern crusades. I’ll say a lot of things about the French, most of them bad, but when it comes to foreign policy realpolitik is their game, and they are ruthless pragmatists. They probably knew the WMD threat was hyperbole because they sold a lot of the dual use equipment Iraq used to use in their NBC programs. And also knew how important Saddam was to containing Iran. They also seem to have a pretty good picture of AQ and modern terrorism, and knew the AQ-Saddam connections were shenanigans.
They’ve been dealing with Islamic terror for some time. In ’94 GIA hijacked an Airbus with the intent to fly it into the Eiffel Tower, and they have been dealing with GIA’s offshoot the GSPC now called the al-Qaeda Organization in the Islamic Maghreb since its inception. I believe France has been a good ally in the “war on terror”. A lot of their political whining about it appears for domestic consumption. The French government knew about the renditions, more than likely aided in some of them, and with a clandestine service known for its ability to keep secrets has likely spearheaded some dark side stuff themselves.
Aoresteen
05-07-2007, 13:14
I spent two weeks in SOUTHERN France (Toulouse) two years ago. I know that they are very happy now. No one would say anything nice about Chirac. They didn't seem to like 'northerners' very much. Most worked an extra 5 to 8 hours per week 'under the table' where possible.
My wife and I had a great time there, saw a stage of the TDF, and drank a lot of good wine. Wonderful place to spend a summer. As for Paris, ugh! Don't bother.
Ret10Echo
05-07-2007, 15:13
Some countries have legally mandated work hours and vacation day minimums. France has a 35 hour work week and a 5 week vacation minimum by law. The EU has imposed a 48 hour maximim work week directive that applies to every member except the UK. Most Europeans have 20 - 30, or more, days vacation a year.
Other work force perks, Spain has a 3 week "honeymoon leave" fully paid for just marrieds. Sweden gives 360 days of maternity leave at 80% of full salary. Plus there's still national holidays.
The work week is one of the things the new French president is looking at changing.
Mind you that the social programs that these nations operate have a commensurate level of taxation....(50% of income). Both parents work full time because basically one of them is working for the state.
Can you connect the dots between the EU work load and the unions here in the U.S.?
Ever wondered what has "driven" the U.S. auto industry into the ditch?
The Reaper
05-07-2007, 15:49
Mind you that the social programs that these nations operate have a commensurate level of taxation....(50% of income). Both parents work full time because basically one of them is working for the state.
Can you connect the dots between the EU work load and the unions here in the U.S.?
Ever wondered what has "driven" the U.S. auto industry into the ditch?
Exactly.
Ever wonder why a Toyota or a Honda built in the US can be as reliable as a Japanese made variant, but a union built Dodge or Ford has parts falling off on the way off the lot due to bad workmanship and a lack of QC?
IIRC, the Big Three asked for a tarriff be slapped on the small Japanese cars in the 70s while they "retooled" to make the smaller, more efficient cars. Congress complied, and the US manufacturers immediately raised prices on all of their models the same amount as the tarriff, without changing much of anything else. I suppose you could say that gave us the Gremlin, Vega, Pinto, Maverick, and some other pretty scary cars.
A union plant gets twice the wages, gives a big chunk back to the union, and kills the goose that laid the golden egg by slapping the parts on any way they want, as they have the job for life. Or they used to, those days appear to be disappearing fast. The US workers can do the job, in a competitive (read non-union) shop, where they are held to a standard and a job is not an entitlement program.
At one time, we owned four US made vehicles. As time went by, each one gave us trouble, and was replaced in turn by a Japanese car or truck (made in the US) that has given us pretty much flawless service. Fill the tank and check the oil, kick the tires and off we go. As opposed to, take the list of things that are wrong, make a Monday service appointment, juggle vehicles, call daily, go back Friday afternoon to pick it up, write a big check, look down the list at "Not able to duplicate", "Checked okay", "Within tolerances" etc., and drive off with it doing the same thing as when you brought it in. Call all the way up to the regional service rep, who examines the vehicle, says "Yep, it sure does seem to be doing that" and tells me to learn to live with it. Last ones left here are a Dodge truck, and my Harley, which has been the most reliable of all the US branded vehicles.
You fooled me once, shame on you, no new chances to fool me again.
TR
Mind you that the social programs that these nations operate have a commensurate level of taxation....(50% of income). Both parents work full time because basically one of them is working for the state.
Get ready, because we're headed there ourselves. The window to reform Social Security has passed and the Baby Boom generation is getting ready to crush our economy as they retire. Marginal tax rates as high as 47-50% are pretty much inevitable over the next 20 years if we expect to make good on promised benefits (which we will, consequences be damned). :(
Ret10Echo
05-07-2007, 16:05
Get ready, because we're headed there ourselves. The window to reform Social Security has passed and the Baby Boom generation is getting ready to crush our economy as they retire. Marginal tax rates as high as 47-50% are pretty much inevitable over the next 20 years if we expect to make good on promised benefits (which we will, consequences be damned). :(
I'll leave that lie for now...I don't want to lead the thread further off the marked trail.....
Exactly.
Ever wonder why a Toyota or a Honda built in the US can be as reliable as a Japanese made variant, but a union built Dodge or Ford has parts falling off on the way off the lot due to bad workmanship and a lack of QC?
I think the US car companies like GM pay a magnitude higher in costs per car than say Toyota for retirement/pension/healtchare etc.
Not only do unions drive costs higher, but they suffocate innovation. Anytime a process improve/change needs to be made on the manufacturing floor that results in some loss of labor, unions have fought it.
I remember a Ford rep in college showing us a powerpoint show of a fancy new robot that installed pistons in the engines. Their current method was to insert the pistions in by hand for that partiuclar engine. They couldn't put that robot in the existing line, but had to create a completely new line due to unions fighting any change on the floor. Funny how Toyota perfected ideas intially set in motion by Henry Ford with regards to process control, quality assurance, reduction of waste/, reduction of defects, etc.
Stagnation in business is a slow death. Flexibility and the ability to adapt will always be key. Businesses get corrected by the market, so should labor. Unions did great things back in the day when monopolies ran amok and the well being (Safety) of laborers was threatened. Contract non/unionized labor is providing better product. Maybe initially more expensive, but when the lifecycle cost is considered, the Japanese automakers can't be beat right now.
IMO France isn't going to change anytime soon though. Neither will Ford or GM. The new French President may sound 'great', but he still answers to the people of France.
82ndtrooper
05-07-2007, 16:45
Get ready, because we're headed there ourselves. The window to reform Social Security has passed and the Baby Boom generation is getting ready to crush our economy as they retire. Marginal tax rates as high as 47-50% are pretty much inevitable over the next 20 years if we expect to make good on promised benefits (which we will, consequences be damned). :(
I'll go there just for a second or two.
Social Security reform was a no brainer two years ago, but remember, the democrats screamed on the hill that any privatized social security system would put many baby boomers and retiree's in dire financial straights. :rolleyes: Most democrats seem to have missed Econ 101 during their stay at Yale or Harvard, if they were lucky enough to have attended and graduated from any prestiguous University.
Here we sit with record highs on the Dow Jones and the S&P 500 and "The People" have not been given the choice to participate in that those milestones with the Social Security tax dollars. Bush enacted stonger saving bills, hence the Roth IRA and higher graduating IRA contribution limits out till the year 2008 when he first took office. This was done to incent Americans to save on their own, not rely on a pie in the skie called "Social Security" When in the history have we been able to save in a tax deferred account and then withdrawal the money at a set date in the future free of taxation ? Yet Roth IRA's and the standard IRA's seem to be the smallest part of the financial planning services industry. The democrats dont want the people saving for themselves, they can't control that money and they can't use it for anything else. Entitlements come to mind ? Voluntary privatization of Social Security was the only logical step to saving the system, yet the democrats are scared that they would have no control over those funds once a person elected to have his or her own private Social Security account invested in the Dow Jones or S&P 500 fund.
It's not a question of "If" Social Security breaks, it's a question of "when"
SMP:
Remember to that about $5000 of every retail price tag on an American made car was built into the price to make up for mismanaged pension funds by the Big 3.
Ever wondered what has "driven" the U.S. auto industry into the ditch?
Health insurance costs. Japan, having socialized (govt funded) health care, does not have to foot the cost of health benefits for it's Japanese employees (which are the vast majority of their work force). GM, on the other hand, spends 5.6 billion a year on health care.... that money is coming out of somewhere.
Also, the workers within many of the Toyota and Honda plants in the US are unionized (UAW), which indicates that there must be different reasons for the quality control issues present with US vehicles.
IMHO, there is a philosophical difference taken by the manufacturers themselves. The foreign manufacturers set out to make vehicles that lasted for 200K miles. The US manufacturers decided that it would be better for them to make vehicles that would crap out in 2-3 years, requiring the buyer to purchase another new vehicle..... That plan didn't work out so well.
Ret10Echo
05-07-2007, 17:38
Health insurance costs. Japan, having socialized (govt funded) health care, does not have to foot the cost of health benefits for it's Japanese employees (which are the vast majority of their work force). GM, on the other hand, spends 5.6 billion a year on health care.... that money is coming out of somewhere.
Also, the workers within many of the Toyota and Honda plants in the US are unionized (UAW), which indicates that there must be different reasons for the quality control issues present with US vehicles.
IMHO, there is a philosophical difference taken by the manufacturers themselves. The foreign manufacturers set out to make vehicles that lasted for 200K miles. The US manufacturers decided that it would be better for them to make vehicles that would crap out in 2-3 years, requiring the buyer to purchase another new vehicle..... That plan didn't work out so well.
Trying to keep it focused on Sarkozy....but....
Rant on
If Ford tries to retool or adjust to meet market...they have a union contract to contend with...if they shut down the plant because the horseless carriage is not in demand, they (Corporate) must continue to pay the workers full wage and compensation until the contract expires. If the workers are on year 2 of a 7 year gig, they just don't go into work for 5 years at full pay. My motivation is? If bolt A that fits in hole B is jacked up...we aint stoppin the line, we aint changin nothing...not without the shop steward saying so....
Corporate heirarchy continues to ignore the market by churning out more of the same...to the tune of Toyota taking over market share from GM. Mind you these vehicles are "assembled" in the U.S. Engineering is still done overseas.
Should Quality Control be done during design or after the recall?
Six-Sigma comes from Japan, not from Detroit.
Adapt or die
Rant off
It will be interesting to see if Sakozy can change a mindset that has been years in the making. It will be telling as he forms his government. The French have spent so long being the anti-US-policy people I am unsure how quickly that attitude can change.
82ndtrooper
05-07-2007, 18:02
When's the last time anyone purchased anything that said "Made In France" ?
Other than champagne, what are Frances major exports to any country ? Hence the low GDP and high unemployment and under employment.
Six-Sigma comes from Japan, not from Detroit.
Just curious, are you talking about Motorola Six-Sigma or something else?
When I worked at Circle M Ranch (AKA bat wings), late 80's through early 90's, we had another term of endearment for the process.
http://www.motorola.com/content.jsp?globalObjectId=3088
http://www.isixsigma.com/library/content/c020815a.asp
.02
If Ford tries to retool or adjust to meet market...they have a union contract to contend with...if they shut down the plant because the horseless carriage is not in demand, they (Corporate) must continue to pay the workers full wage and compensation until the contract expires. If the workers are on year 2 of a 7 year gig, they just don't go into work for 5 years at full pay. My motivation is? If bolt A that fits in hole B is jacked up...we aint stoppin the line, we aint changin nothing...not without the shop steward saying so....
Sir,
I understand your points, but must slightly diagree.
I grew up in a UAW household, and saw dad undergo several retooling processes. They occur quite often (relatively speaking), and do not entail the employee being off (paid) for years at a time. Dad would usually get a week or two off (granted, it was paid), but it still seems that it would be better (for the business) to pay a couple hundred employees 2 weeks salary than to produce a failing model for years on end.
Also, the companies can (and do) simply shut down plants when it is no longer profitable. The workers are merely told that they are being transferred to other plants, where they will then (based on seniority) bump out the new employees (who are laid off-- no pay).
For example, my father worker the Union-Natural Bridge plant in StL for 27 years. When they shut it down, he was offered Wentzville Mo or Bowling Green KY. He took Wentzville for the last 3 years. It was not the case that they simply paid him his salary to stay at home and do nothing. That, to my knowledge, does not occur.
My point is that change does occur, even with a union in place.
IMHO, what is crippling the US companies (economically) are the agreements that the companies made with the unions years ago.... For decades, the auto manufacturers offered the unions increses in benefits instead of salary increases. Why? Because it was a cheaper ""future" cost (lifetime healthcare, lifetime dental, etc), and did not affect them immediately (in the manner that an across the board salary increase would have).
What they did not expect was the astronomical increase in health care costs, coupled with higher than expected numbers of retirees (people were living longer, on average, than the company planned). Next thing you know, they were spending 5-6 billion a year on health care.
When you start out 6 billion behind your competitor (who has socialized medicine on his side), it can be an uphill battle to say the least. Think what GM could have done with an extra 6 Billion a year for R&D, retooling, etc..... probably nothing, but you get my point.
Back to France.......
Did anyone else see the figure that 85% of the French voting population turned out at the polls? French bashing aside, that is quite impressive.
The Reaper
05-07-2007, 20:44
Trying to keep it focused on Sarkozy....but....
Rant on
If Ford tries to retool or adjust to meet market...they have a union contract to contend with...if they shut down the plant because the horseless carriage is not in demand, they (Corporate) must continue to pay the workers full wage and compensation until the contract expires. If the workers are on year 2 of a 7 year gig, they just don't go into work for 5 years at full pay. My motivation is? If bolt A that fits in hole B is jacked up...we aint stoppin the line, we aint changin nothing...not without the shop steward saying so....
Corporate heirarchy continues to ignore the market by churning out more of the same...to the tune of Toyota taking over market share from GM. Mind you these vehicles are "assembled" in the U.S. Engineering is still done overseas.
Should Quality Control be done during design or after the recall?
Six-Sigma comes from Japan, not from Detroit.
Adapt or die
Rant off
It will be interesting to see if Sakozy can change a mindset that has been years in the making. It will be telling as he forms his government. The French have spent so long being the anti-US-policy people I am unsure how quickly that attitude can change.
I would think that the worker's motivation (union or otherwise) would be on doing the best job that he can, so that the company profits and he keeps a job (and his cushy retirement). Non-UAW employees in some foreign-owned plants make more than their union counterparts, thanks to profit sharing.
Negative on the overseas engineering. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai all have expanded their U.S. design and research-and-development facilities.
The only UAW organized foreign-owned plant that I am aware of is the NUMMI facility in California, the joint Toyota-GM venture.
I do not see the French people changing any more than we can reform Social Security and Medicare without it becoming the third rail. As the American population ages, it will only get worse, as people tax their grandkids to death to get their share of the free lunch.
mdb, I was amazed at the turn-out as well.
TR
Back to France.......
Did anyone else see the figure that 85% of the French voting population turned out at the polls? French bashing aside, that is quite impressive.
IIRC, it was 85% of registered voters, not the general population. Still impressive, though.
Nice post, BTW.
Ret10Echo
05-07-2007, 22:22
Any changes would require a fairly long period to implement. It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this either internally or externally. I am more interested to see how French foreign policy may or may not change. They face some fairly serious domestic issues that spill over into that area.
Apologies for going off half-cocked.
Pegasus….The name was from Motorola, but the concept preceded them In the auto industry the application of the idea was executed by the Japanese the big 3 lagged behind in the concept minus the brief flare during the gas crisis.
http://www.asq.org/pub/sixsigma/past/vol2_issue4/ssfmv2i4folaron.pdf
1798: Eli Whitney, Mass Production and Interchangeable Parts
• Need for consistency.
• Identification of defects.
1924: Walter Shewhart
• Process oriented thinking.
• Control charts (assignable and common cause).
1945: The Japanese Quality Movement Begins
• Statistical methods and use of statisticians.
• Continuous improvement (plan-do-study-act)
methodology.
• Active engagement of management and involvement
of everyone.
• Diagnostic and remedial journeys.
1973: The Japanese Make Their Move
• Quick response to changing customer needs.
1980: Philip Crosby and Quality Is Free
• Methodology to achieve companywide quality
improvement.
• Improve product, process and service. Strive for
perfection.
1987: International Organization for Standardization
• Widespread sharing of basic elements of sound
quality systems.
• Organizational rally cry for improvement.
1987: Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Award
• Sharing best practices.
• Strong focus on customers and results.
1987: Motorola and Six Sigma
• Focus on customer needs and comparison of process
performance to those needs.
• Structured methodology with discipline and proven
business results.
1960-1995: Other Initiatives
• Tools to be used by everyone in the organization.
Mdb23……My view of Detroit comes from an immediate family member who worked at corporate in what was supposed to be a Six-Sigma group that was quickly dissolved when gas prices started to squeeze and the reorganization started. He was frustrated over the uphill battle in trying to bring into practice the concepts and the fact that hands were tied due to contractual obligations that no one was going to budge on (labor or management). Interesting in the different perspective based on what side of the table you are sitting.
82ndtrooper
05-07-2007, 23:26
Any changes would require a fairly long period to implement. It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this either internally or externally. I am more interested to see how French foreign policy may or may not change. They face some fairly serious domestic issues that spill over into that area.
Apologies for going off half-cocked.
Pegasus….The name was from Motorola, but the concept preceded them In the auto industry the application of the idea was executed by the Japanese the big 3 lagged behind in the concept minus the brief flare during the gas crisis.
http://www.asq.org/pub/sixsigma/past/vol2_issue4/ssfmv2i4folaron.pdf
1798: Eli Whitney, Mass Production and Interchangeable Parts
• Need for consistency.
• Identification of defects.
1924: Walter Shewhart
• Process oriented thinking.
• Control charts (assignable and common cause).
1945: The Japanese Quality Movement Begins
• Statistical methods and use of statisticians.
• Continuous improvement (plan-do-study-act)
methodology.
• Active engagement of management and involvement
of everyone.
• Diagnostic and remedial journeys.
1973: The Japanese Make Their Move
• Quick response to changing customer needs.
1980: Philip Crosby and Quality Is Free
• Methodology to achieve companywide quality
improvement.
• Improve product, process and service. Strive for
perfection.
1987: International Organization for Standardization
• Widespread sharing of basic elements of sound
quality systems.
• Organizational rally cry for improvement.
1987: Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Award
• Sharing best practices.
• Strong focus on customers and results.
1987: Motorola and Six Sigma
• Focus on customer needs and comparison of process
performance to those needs.
• Structured methodology with discipline and proven
business results.
1960-1995: Other Initiatives
• Tools to be used by everyone in the organization.
Mdb23……My view of Detroit comes from an immediate family member who worked at corporate in what was supposed to be a Six-Sigma group that was quickly dissolved when gas prices started to squeeze and the reorganization started. He was frustrated over the uphill battle in trying to bring into practice the concepts and the fact that hands were tied due to contractual obligations that no one was going to budge on (labor or management). Interesting in the different perspective based on what side of the table you are sitting.
Is there really any difference between the automobile sector and airline trasportation industry ? Not really. One is transpo and one is manufacturing. However both have similar problems that are restrictive to growth and earnings. Remember, the shareholders own the company and the bottom line is to increase per share earnings on a quarterly basis. Shareholders rarely are patient and they rarely like to invest in UAW and Airline Unions. If the price of Delta Airlines is not indicative then what is ? It's currently at .04 a share. That's market efficiency at it's best and Delta is willing to what ever it takes to begin to show shareholders a quarter worth writing up in the Wall Street Journal. Market efficiencies are present. I haven't flown Delta for about 15 years. Air Tran and U.S.Air is alway's half to a third of the cost of flying Delta if your willing to stop over in Charlotte N.C. or Chicago Midway. This is akin to buying a Japenese car vs an GM. Competition gives the consumer what they want and need for a cheaper price. However, the if the airines are bailed out like Lee Iococca did with Chrysler then the tax payer get hit with IOU that is later written off and then given loans approved by congress to further their debt on the balance sheets, still yet to be payed by Chrysler. The same hold true of how NYC has stayed afloat for all these years with entitlement programs for the minorities. It just simply neve works and robs the tax payers of much needed money.
France has stumbled around for years trying to give it's citizens the Health Care entitlement and to improve it's GDP, but with a sluggish work ethic and little incentive for growth, what's the use? Just keep sipping wine and eating crumpets.
The 85% voter turnout figure was for registered voters which accounts for rouphly only 60% of the nations citizens. How does that compare to our numbers ?
The 85% voter turnout figure was for registered voters which accounts for rouphly only 60% of the nations citizens. How does that compare to our numbers ?
I understand this, which is why I said that 85% of the French voting population turned out.:D
In contrast, according to the US Census Bureau, only 72 percent of those eligible to vote even register to do so, and about 64 percent of that group voted in the 2004 Presidential election.
President Bush received 51 percent of that vote (62 million votes), which puts the total number of votes at 124 million (roughly). The total US population is 300 million,
The French certainly outdo us when it comes to voter participation.