Shootings at Virginia Tech

[booker]

For those of you not near the news, 22 people were killed on campus today. For some reason I decided not to go to campus today, the first shooting was in the group of buildings right next to my office.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3045574

[bandycpa]

booker,

Glad to hear you are safe. My thoughts and prayers go out to the students, faculty, staff and families at VT. I live about two hours away from Blacksburg, and I can tell you it's been quite a shock here today.

We're still waiting to hear news about who is okay and who is not. Pins and needles everywhere.

I understand the gunman is dead. I just cannot understand how someone can rationalize doing something like this. At what point does shooting a lot of people on a school campus seem like a good idea? Doesn't make any sense at all.

At our FTX for VADF this weekend, we were told that our Adjutant General expected some sort of catastrophic or terrorist event in the State of Virginia this year. In my mind, thinking we are safe in the hills, I envisioned something happening up in Northern VA (and it still could). I never thought it would happen here, and I couldn't have been more wrong.

Please say a prayer for those at VT...today and in the days to come.



Bandy



Bandy

[HOLLiS]

Booker good to hear your safe. What a mess.

For those who lost their lives, may they Rest in Peace.

[OIFDan]

Booker,
My Condolences to you and yours for your losses.

[The Reaper]

I am in shock about this.

While I feel sorry for the victims and their families, and will keep them in my prayers, I have to ask some questions.

How do 31 people, at last count, get killed (plus more wounded) without anyone fighting back or running away? That is at least one mag change, probably more. Where was campus security? Were CCW holders banned from packing on campus? So much for "gun-free" campuses being safer.:rolleyes: How was he finally killed? By his own hand?

I have already instructed my kids that if they hear shooting and they believe that there are armed people in their school, to open a door or break a window if necessary and run zigzag using cover for the church across the street. This hiding under the desk, locking a lightweight door in a room with an entire wall of windows, and hoping the bad men go away is poor advice and promotes the Sheep mentality. I have already told then that I will gladly pay for whatever they break on the way out.

Clearly, all of the facts are not in yet, but this is a tragedy which MAY have been avoidable.

Prayers out.

TR

[Five-O]

Unbelievable that someone could kill in such an indiscriminant manner. Prayers to the dead and a speedy recovery to the wounded.


Hold on to your "assault" rifles.

[Pete]

.....I have already instructed my kids that if they hear shooting and they believe that there are armed people in their school, to open a door or break a window if necessary and run zigzag using cover for the church across the street. ...

Ditto on it all. A sad day and prayers for the killed and wounded plus their families.

The schools, middle and high school around here, are pushing "Lock Down". Anything of Alarm and everybody is "Locked Down" in their rooms. They even practice this.

My kids only shake their heads. Hear any shooting and a desk goes through the nearest window. Get out and get moving away. Said the same to mine "I'll pay for a new window."

Pete

[booker]

TR-

From what I know, people "thought" that the shooter had already been caught after he shot an individual at the dorm. According to university rules, weapons are not allowed on campus :rolleyes: I have also questioned why no one reacted to the shooting, but video currently being shown on all the national syndicates have shown the campus police just standing outside the building as shots are fired inside.

[futureSoldier]

Definitely avoidable to a degree. My sister, 2 cousins, and most of my best friends go to school at VT, 3 of which are engineering students who had a majority of their classes in Norris hall. They heard no real warning (other than an email) after the first shooting, no road closings, no load speakers, nothing. They are all in complete shock. They all have the same perspective: they cannot believe that after the first shooting the only warning they had was an email. It is illogical to them (and me) that after the first shooting the shooter was not apprehended and no one was properly notified and that the campus remained open for well over 2 hrs after the first shooting.

Tragic and pathetic...

Joe

[Five-O]

but video currently being shown on all the national syndicates have shown the campus police just standing outside the building as shots are fired inside.

IF, IF, IF, the police were observed to be standing outside while an active shooter was inside one of the buildings the officers in question should be looking for work or worse tomorrow. Having said that, the media has been known to get things wrong from time to time. :rolleyes:

[GreenSalsa]

Glad to hear you are okay and I feel sorry for the families waiting, especially for those that will inevitably get the horrific news.

If only there were one or two individuals with concealed carries, these kinds of atrocities would not occur or at the least, they would be limited.

[Forgotten]

booker,

I am relieved to see you are safe and sound I shall pray for you and the families that have lost loved one's. May God be with those who have lost thier lives and those struggling to keep thier's.


Forgotten

[Rogue]

Originally Posted by GreenSalsa
If only there were one or two individuals with concealed carries, these kinds of atrocities would not occur or at the least, they would be limited.

Sadly, It will probably not take any time at all for the anti-gun crowd and gun banners to jump on this and use it to push more control on ownership, and CCW holders.

[Kyobanim]

Were CCW holders banned from packing on campus?

Most likely, yes. That's how it reads in Florida and both states have a reciprical agreement. I can't carry here even though the new law says you can carry in the workplace with the CCW.

Evidently, no one up there is concerned about self defense enough to take classes.

[GreenSalsa]

Sadly, It will probably not take any time at all for the anti-gun crowd and gun banners to jump on this and use it to push more control on ownership, and CCW holders.

Banning guns to “save lives” would be as pointless as banning the “schools” where the shooters kill people.

Laws are only respected by the law abiding—I seriously doubt this individual was concerned with gun laws when he woke up this morning.

[Sionnach]

Booker, good to hear you're ok. Your guardian angel had your six. I hope everyone else's friends and families are OK.

TR, excellent observations.

Not only are 32 people dead, but the gun-grabbers will milk this for everything they can, and the sheeple will bleet in agreement.

[Rogue]

ABC news online is already jumping on the "ease of obtaining high-cap magazines". And the fact that congress didn't re-enact the ban. etc.etc.etc.

[jbour13]

This is a very saddening event on multiple levels to me. My heart goes out to the families of those lost and injured.

Ladies and gents, this couldn't have come at a worse time for gun rights advocates and those they represent. Prepare yourselves for the political onslaught and fallout. This is not meant to make light of the horrible incident that has occured or political grandstanding, my sincerest condolences to all those affected.

For those that were in close proximity to this, good to hear you are all fine. I agree with TR's point of not standing to and protecting oneself or others. I second Green Salsa's point of CCW's. I'm a Virginia permit holder and if necessary I'd stand and fight for anyone, regardless of how much I dislike them. It's what we do.

V/R

SSG B

[blue02hd]

Glad to hear that you are safe. Thanks for posting. It infuriates me that those of us with CCW's are banned to carry in the places such as universities, malls, etc. It is the primary reason to carry: To avoid having to rely on others to grant our personal safety. I am afraid this will be the focal point for this "Blame America" first Congress to introduce gun control legislation that we have not seen before.

I hope they blame the criminal, and not the gun.

All that being said I am glad to hear you are safe.

[The Reaper]

Here is another one. I see mixed groups of people in plainclothes, uniformed patrol officers, SWAT team members, etc. carrying people out by their arms and legs. None on litters.

Shouldn't a tac team or the med units responding have several Skedcos, poleless litters, backboards, Stokes litters, etc. to get victims out more quickly and easily, with less damage to them?

Bad time to be second guessing, but this whole incident appears to me to be one of unpreparedness and poor response.

TR

[Dub]

I go to JMU. Weapons are banned on campus. No concealed carry allowed by anyone except police officers. No professors allowed to carry. Makes for a great unarmed killing ground.

Maybe this will change something... Is a 30+ body count enough to change liberal bastards?


THe fact that guns are banned should technically be ILLEGAL. I will talk to my professor who would like to carry, but is denied to find out how JMU finangled their ban, he is very informed. This law went to trial when a local took the school to court last year that he had the right to carry... and he lost.


-Dub

[Rogue]

I go to JMU. Weapons are banned on campus. No concealed carry allowed by anyone except police officers. No professors allowed to carry. Makes for a great unarmed killing ground.

Maybe this will change something... Is a 30+ body count enough to change liberal bastards?

-Dub

The blotters and blogs are already buzzing..... saying the NRA has more blood on it's hands.....

The sheeple in their ignorance will use this as a battle cry to back the liberals on more useless anti-gun legislation. We'll see new legislation introduced within weeks....

[The Reaper]

The blotters and blogs are already buzzing..... saying the NRA has more blood on it's hands.....

The sheeple in their ignorance will use this as a battle cry to back the liberals on more useless anti-gun legislation. We'll see new legislation introduced within weeks....

I agree.

A gun-free zone is one of the most dangerous places in America.

The McCarthy Bill will likely gather new steam, when a CCW Plus program for carry in public schools is what is needed. We will see the AWB back in the next few years, but permanent and including more guns.

This whole topic was flogged to death already in a separate thread, bottom line, some LEs like CCWs, and some do not. Can't see how it would have hurt here, other than possibly making the situation more confusing with students running away, CCWs possibly firing a few shots, and the possibility for a shooter to escape.

Story so far from the initial reports is that the shooter, an "Asian" individual, moved from an initial assault to a classroom, lined up students, and shot 40-50 times in two minutes or so. Why, after he shot the first one, would you continue to stand there, sheeple?

Several in nearby classrooms disobeyed the lock-down policy and jumped, some minor injuries from falls, but no one killed jumping, unlike those who stayed.

TR

[booker]

This BS from the anti gun crowd really pisses me off. If anything this incident is a direct example of why we need more CCW permits, why they need to be allowed on campus, etc. How the frick is keeping a weapon out of a law abiding citizens hands going to prevent something like this? I'm usually reserved in the whole argument about gun control (let other people have their opinions, I always said), preferring instead to just voice my opinion through my vote, etc, but the anti gun crowd using this incident as fuel for their fire has crossed the line. WTF are these people thinking?

[rubberneck]

From Ronaoke.com. The site is currently down because of traffic so I have reprinted the entire story.


Gun bill gets shot down by panel
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.


A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the GeneralAssembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

The University has to answer for this. They actively sought to prevent their students from defending themselves and now 31 of them are dead because of it. As others have pointed out being safe is much more important than feeling safe.

[Five-O]

Here is another one. I see mixed groups of people in plainclothes, uniformed patrol officers, SWAT team members, etc. carrying people out by their arms and legs. None on litters.

Shouldn't a tac team or the med units responding have several Skedcos, poleless litters, backboards, Stokes litters, etc. to get victims out more quickly and easily, with less damage to them?

Bad time to be second guessing, but this whole incident appears to me to be one of unpreparedness and poor response.

TR
TR,
Does not sound like second guessing to me. Most likely available units/and multiple organizations/agencies responded in a piece-meal fashion to an active shooter with foggy and mixed intell at best. Most SOP's ....you take the first two units on scene, team up and go in and kill the bad guy. Obviously patrol cars do not carry litters. TAC/SWAT team do have litters but the primary mission is to stop the threat and would arrive later than patrol...care for the wounded comes once the scene is secure. Based on the footage I have seen it is impossible to tell if shooting was still going on when the LE's started to evac the wounded. In reality most agencies (IMO) are not prepared for an event of this magnitude. I have seen some horrific stuff on the job but never 32 kids murdered....

[Goggles Pizano]

Here is another one. I see mixed groups of people in plainclothes, uniformed patrol officers, SWAT team members, etc. carrying people out by their arms and legs. None on litters.

Shouldn't a tac team or the med units responding have several Skedcos, poleless litters, backboards, Stokes litters, etc. to get victims out more quickly and easily, with less damage to them?

Bad time to be second guessing, but this whole incident appears to me to be one of unpreparedness and poor response.

TR

Tragic. My heart goes out to the families of the slain. May the souls of those departed rest in peace.

I shall reserve judgment on the police reaction until I can gather more information about what was going on and when. Not sure about the litters Sir, but I agree it appears to be an ill prepared Department and not uncommon in schools across the country. In order to give you an idea to what depth; the University here has a police department (small) and they have weapons-locked in an arms room until the next qualification date comes around. Yes, you read that correctly-unarmed police on campus!! The shooter's tactic of creating one incident to mask his flight to the next is certainly not new to QP's here but indicates premeditation nonetheless. I'm interested to hear more information about him (ie, terrorist leanings, training backround, etc.).

[Dive08]

My university (Texas A&M) doesnt allow weapons on university premises. However it defines premises as only buildings, not to include parking areas etc.

Thusly, I was allowed to keep my weapon in my car in the parking lot/garage or on my person walking on campus so long as i wasnt headed to any classroom.

Its kind of fine print but i wonder if other universities have codes like this or if this is unique to Texas.

[The Reaper]

TR,
Does not sound like second guessing to me. Most likely available units/and multiple organizations/agencies responded in a piece-meal fashion especially to an active shooter. You take the first two units on scence, team up and go in and kill the bad guy. Obviously patrol cars do not carry litters. TAC/SWAT team do have litters but the primary mission is to stop the threat and would arrive later than patrol...care for the wounded comes once the scene is secure. Based on the footage I have seen it is impossible to tell if shooting was still going on when the LE's started to evac the wounded. In reality most agencies (IMO) are not prepared for an event of this magnitude.

5-0:

Once you have established a breach, and begin securing portions of a large building, can med teams not enter and evac areas that you have already cleared?

With the global threat we currently face, a Beslan- or Columbine-type situation is one thing that every county or metro area needs to be prepared for.

Agree that waiting is the worst thing to do. I wonder who did the intial entry and when/what/where they entered?

I am sure that details will follow.

Maybe the shooter was unaware of the campus no gun policy or forgot to check his in with security? I am sure that more laws would have deterred this senseless action.:rolleyes:

TR

[Dub]

My professors take on the gun policy at JMU:

Technically the state legislature is the only group
that can make laws in the commonwealth. The JMU thing is a policy, which
the one guy said did not apply to him as he was not a student. I suspect
that they would say that because I am a faculty member I have to "abide" by
JMU policies. Not sure about that.



- The 'guy' he refers too is a local citizen who challegened the policy

[ClemsonTiger]

I just wanted to comment on the CCW issue. I attend Clemson, and there is a group of students here trying to overrule the law of not allowing guns within one mile of the campus. Already there are people all over campus crying to outlaw handguns and ban assault weapons. Very few people actually realize that one student with a CCW could have stopped this man before he killed 32 people. I can see this incident as the breaking point for many people when it comes to gun laws. What happens next could be very bad.

[Schmalzy]

This entire terrible tragedy shows the dangerous reality of the lack of armed, responsible students and/or professors on college campuses. I go to the University of San Diego, and getting a CCW in San Diego county is almost impossible, much less having a firearm on University property. Does anybody know if any part of VT's Corps of Cadets was armed? Im assuming not, due to the campus ban on guns.

May God be with the families of those killed and wounded in this extremely messed up situaiton.

[booker]

It's not there is a lack of students with CCW permits, I will go out on a limb and say that my department has a high concentration of CCW holders, but we still comply with university policies, which prevent the carrying of firearms on campus. I agree 110% that this incident may have been prevented if this policy had not been in place, but keep in mind the department that the shootings occurred in- engineering, which has a high percentage of people unable to carry weapons (foreign nationals) and those who are opposed to weapons (not going to point fingers on this one). As TR has pointed out, the response by LE was not quite what many here would have expected.

What is more concerning is the lack of response by bystanders within the building, who in my mind just stood by while the shooter had his way. To me that act of selfishness on the part of the whole (i.e. the sheep) is just very disturbing.

[Prester John]

My university (Texas A&M) doesnt allow weapons on university premises. However it defines premises as only buildings, not to include parking areas etc.



When i went to A&M from 98'-02' there was a no weapons on the premises policy, but it interpreted the premises as ones car if IN the university's parking lot. I had a professor arrested in a Yellow lot for pulling an old flintlock pistol out of his car to show to his class. Be careful, because the Vision 20/20 campaign wants to get rid of the gun totin' Texan image.

I carried regularly in school. If you are discrete there should never be any issues, and the consequences of using it are less permanent than being buried.

I've been watching these yellow cops hiding behind trees with drawn weapons. If you have a job to protect and serve, you better damn well earn your money on days like today.

My prayers go out to all those involved and affected.

Doug

[Five-O]

5-0:

Once you have established a breach, and begin securing portions of a large building, can med teams not enter and evac areas that you have already cleared?

TR

Absolutely yes, Paramedics would be asked to start a CCP but there may have had multiple breach points being entered by various responding units in a large building, again with foggy Intell. Many of the first responding officers will have had no military experience so you have that working against you. Commo will also be a problem and officers talk all over each other until a seperate channel can be established but this takes time. Things do not get under control until a SWAT/TAC team arrives and an incident command(TOC) gets established. Most State/City/Local LE's training in this type of situation once maybe if lucky twice a year. Its a cluster.

[Patriot007]

I can't tell you how many times I walked around my university and thought how vulnerable it was to a planned attack. If this is what one shooter (allegedly) could do imagine what a group could do in a packed unarmed student union at lunch time. I pray that changes are made before this becomes a common target for our enemies.

[The Reaper]

Laws and policies are just that, and you have to weigh your actions in consideration of the risks versus the benefits.

Violate the school or business policy and you may get anything from a verbal admonishment to being fired.

A violation of the law can cost you a lot more money and potentially your freedom.

If you carry discreetly and carefully, and there are no metal detectors or probable cause to search you, you may never be caught.

I am sure that no one on the campus this windy spring morning (except the shooter) thought that they would need a weapon.

What are the odds that you will, on any given day?

A prudent individual does everything he or she can before packing, like getting training, and a permit, and making judgements on the need versus the risk of carrying.

For many years, people carried concealed illegally. Now, most states allow concealed carry, with a permit. If you could get a permit, and choose to carry illegally without, you are guilty of extreme stupidity. If you carry discretely in a prohibited place, if detected, I suspect that you would fare better as a CCW holder who screwed up than a non-permitted individual who chose to ingore the law completely. For example, I know people who carry to church, to public schools, to restaurants that serve alcohol (but do not consume), etc. They have weighed the risk and made their decisions. They have prepared themselves and are willing to live with the consequences. As we all must.

I am sorry that this asshole chose to use a firearrm to hurt innocent people. IMHO, if he had to do something stupid, I wish he had killed himself first or used another instrument, like a vehicle.

I sincerely hope that everybody responding reacted properly and did their best, and the event was over before they could react. Let's keep the personal comments about the responders positive and professional. No generic cop bashing.

Finally, this will not be the last time that something of this nature happens, even if all of the draconian anti-gun laws that Sarah Brady herself would like are passed. There will always be ways for criminals to get guns.

RIP, kids. Prayers out.

TR

[bandycpa]

rubberneck,

Good find on the article from roanoke.com. I found another article on that same site that was written before the bill was defeated. In light of today's events, some of the comments have some chilling connotations to them.

http://www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/49915


Gun bill targets colleges
A bill being considered in the House of Delegates challenges the authority of public universities to restrict weapons on campus.

By Greg Esposito 381-1675

BLACKSBURG -- Seventy-five guns sit in a weapons storage facility at the Virginia Tech police station.

The guns are secured inside storage compartments in a locked room slightly larger than a walk-in closet.

University policy requires students and employees, other than police, to check their guns there. If they want to take them off campus, they have to sign them out, and a university police officer must retrieve them.

Regardless of whatever permits they may have, those students and employees are not allowed to possess guns on campus.

Tech's regulations are similar to gun policies at public colleges throughout the state, such as the University of Virginia, Virginia Military Institute and Radford University.

But a bill being considered in the state House of Delegates challenges the authority of public universities to create such policies.

House Bill 1572, proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, would prohibit universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation makes exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

The issue of guns on campus received attention at Tech last spring when a student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit.

Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy that reiterates the ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibits visitors from bringing guns into campus facilities.

Two bills seeking to clarify the issue by giving college governing boards explicit authority to regulate firearms on campus died in committee during last year's General Assembly session.

Philip Van Cleave, a Midlothian resident who is president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, said Wednesday that public universities have no right to tell visitors where they can bring guns. Their authority over students remains a gray area, he said.

HB 1572 was proposed on behalf of Van Cleave's organization.

"The basic intent is to allow students with concealed weapons permits to be able to carry their gun with them on campus just like they can anywhere else in the state," he said. "You can count the number of exceptions on one hand."

But Tech Police Chief Debra Duncan said colleges should be included in those exceptions.

"You can't carry a gun on an airplane, you can't carry a gun in a federal building and you shouldn't be able to carry a gun at an institute of learning," she said.

Spokesman Gary Frink said Gilbert wouldn't discuss the bill until it moved further along in the legislative process. The bill is in subcommittee and Van Cleave said he didn't expect it to be heard for at least a couple of weeks.

While passage of the bill is still a long way off -- with hurdles to clear in subcommittee and full committee before going in front of all delegates and then the Senate -- Van Cleave is confident it could be passed.

"I don't believe we're overstepping any bounds. We get into this magical thing where someone steps on school property and the sky parts," he said. "School is just another place."

But officials at colleges throughout the state argue that school isn't just another place and guns are anathema to a learning environment that should be free of fear or intimidation.

Tech spokesman Larry Hincker labeled it a "guns-in-the-classroom bill."

"We do believe this has grave implications," he said. "Why would the General Assembly wish to legislate to make campuses unsafe?"

But National Rifle Association head Wayne LaPierre, who was in Roanoke on Wednesday to speak to a Kiwanis Club gathering, pointed out that guns can actually make campuses safer.

He cited the fatal shootings at the Appalachian School of Law in which several armed students subdued the gunman. (note from Bandy - That was about a half hour away from here. I can tell you that, had it not been for those subduing the gunman, the situation would have been a lot worse at ASL.)

Van Cleave pointed out potential safety problems facing women going to night classes.

"You never know when evil will pop up," he said.

Van Cleave said his group has heard from several students who want the right to carry guns on campus.

Stephanie Harmon, president of the Radford University Student Government Association, said she would bring the topic up at a student senate meeting Monday before the student government took an official stance on the bill.

But she opposes it.

"It's not that I'm opposed to gun rights, it's just not necessary," she said. "It's taking an increased risk of something happening when you allow a gun in the classroom."

(note from Bandy - Sadly, Ms. Harmon couldn't have been more correct.)

Staff writer Laurence Hammack contributed to this story.

[Team Sergeant]

I've been a bodyguard for an ambassador, senators and congressmen in a war zone, yet I'm not allowed to guard our nations children in a place that should be safe.

We need a new set of rules and not ones that safeguard our politicians but our children.

This coward would not have made it into the senate or the house of representatives, they have armed guards.

Why can't we guard our children the same way?

Let's continue to safeguard our nations senators and congressmen so they can make more laws that ensure "their own" safety.

We are a nation of stupid sheeple.

Team Sergeant

[rubberneck]

But Tech Police Chief Debra Duncan said colleges should be included in those exceptions.

"You can't carry a gun on an airplane, you can't carry a gun in a federal building and you shouldn't be able to carry a gun at an institute of learning," she said.

As TS pointed out in his post we don't make any effort to protect our kids. Here we have a sworn Chief LEO saying that students shouldn't carry by pointing out that you can't carry on an airplane or in a federal building. What she neglects to point out is that a college campus, unlike an airport and a federal office building, is not a secure facility. I have been to dozens of colleges over the years and I have never once seen a metal detector or have been frisked in order to enter a building. I can't say the same about a federal courthouse or an airport. Schools are big fat soft targets for any miscreant looking to hurt large numbers of people.

It just a sign of how far out of touch some in a position of authority are. IMHO she should lose he job.

[Turbobalaclava]

I am a VT alumni currently living in Florida. Around 10am I recieved a call from my mother. She asked me if I had heard the news. Turns out she was visiting the campus today and was at the time under lockdown in Shanks hall first in a basement and then in a computer lab.

Apparently she had gone to VT with an art class from the school she teaches at. As soon as they stepped of the bus, they were taken by the authorities to a secure location and were told details about what was happening. At the time she said only one was confirmed dead, but as the day went on and the number of fatalities increased I started to worry. I have since heard from her and everything is fine. Of course while she was there she heard many rumors about number of gunmen, apparent rational, background, and number of gunmen dead versus captured.

I guess as a former engineering student I am somewhat shook up and I hope the fallout from this is not what we all fear it to be, the removal of the second ammendment.

This is the first time in my life that something has happened close to a loved one and it makes me want to do something to prevent or help contain such situations in the future. By that I mean, get involved in the military if they will have me and try to do what I can. I know this is not a military matter but if we dont step up outside the US, stuff like this will happen more frequently and at the hands of enemies of the US instead of disgruntled students.

I guess there is nothing new or Earth shattering in this post and sorry for the rambling. I am just trying to get out some of what I have been thinking and feeling for the last few hours.

[Team Sergeant]

As TS pointed out in his post we don't make any effort to protect our kids. Here we have a sworn Chief LEO saying that students shouldn't carry by pointing out that you can't carry on an airplane or in a federal building.

But we do have "civilians" carrying guns on airplanes.

A "special" law was enacted to meet a special threat.

How about another "special" law that allows teachers that get "special" training to carry weapons in schools, or school guards with "special" training to carry on school grounds.

Just knowing that someone is armed and ready might have stopped this coward from murdering 31 kids today.

TS

[OIFDan]

But we do have "civilians" carrying guns on airplanes.

A "special" law was enacted to meet a special threat.

How about another "special" law that allows teachers that get "special" training to carry weapons in schools, or school guards with "special" training to carry on school grounds.

Just knowing that someone is armed and ready might have stopped this coward from murdering 31 kids today.

TS


Agreed completely. I imagine he would have thought twice about pulling the trigger had it been a two way range.

[one-zero]

...For many years, people carried concealed illegally. Now, most states allow concealed carry, with a permit. If you could get a permit, and choose to carry illegally without, you are guilty of extreme stupidity. If you carry discretely in a prohibited place, if detected, I suspect that you would fare better as a CCW holder who screwed up than a non-permitted individual who chose to ingore the law completely. For example, I know people who carry to church, to public schools, to restaurants that serve alcohol (but do not consume), etc. They have weighed the risk and made their decisions. They have prepared themselves and are willing to live with the consequences. As we all must...
TR
I have a big nasty scar on my upper L arm to serve as a constant reminder to the validity of the above statement. Had I not been carrying ILLEGALLY that day I would not be here and instead only took one hit...

The weighing of consequences cannot be done lightly and without a mature thinking process to explain yourself if confronted (I've worked scenarios that pertain to situations I may find myself in most often) prior to a crisis - if you were a VT student wearing CCW the day prior and found out, led out in cuffs / same student if had averted the slaughter today, alive and possibly a hero. I won't elaborate on the point too much as most people on this board "get it"...just remember the 'concealed' part of CCW and be a responsible citizen. Sheeple don't know the efforts we make for them overseas nor when we're the only armed citizens around them in colleges, restuarants, etc

get educated, get trained, get the right tools - use good judgement.

regards,
1-0

[The Reaper]

You know, this reminds me of the saying about the best gun to have is the one you have with you when the shooting starts.

By the same token, the best person to be carrying a gun is someone who is actually there on the scene when the trouble starts. Not someone who rolls up five minutes later.

At the same time, a CCW holder who engaged and killed the shooter would quickly have demands by the anti-gunners and MSM for his arrest as a "trigger-happy cowboy" looking for trouble, and lawsuits by the family of the killer as well as the students present who would no doubt be traumatized for life. You just can't win, but you might live another day.:rolleyes:

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[kgoerz]

Active shooter response is just that. A response that takes time that you don't have. This can go either way as far as Pro Gun or Anti Gun. Right know it's leaning to wards our side some. Have to see how he got the Guns, how many CCW permit holders were on campus but unarmed because of the Campus Law. Have to protect yourself, no one else is going to get there in time.

[ktek01]

Active shooter response is just that. A response that takes time that you don't have. This can go either way as far as Pro Gun or Anti Gun. Right know it's leaning to wards our side some. Have to see how he got the Guns, how many CCW permit holders were on campus but unarmed because of the Campus Law. Have to protect yourself, no one else is going to get there in time.


75 guns checked in with Campus Police.

[Air.177]

75 guns checked in with Campus Police.


That figure may or may not accurately reflect CCW permit holders. If I understand correctly, these include Privately owned weapons belonging to students living on campus. That's what I got from this statement at any rate.

YMMV

Good times,
blake

[x-factor]

Here's the story as I understand it:

The guy caught his girlfriend cheating and killed her and the lover that morning in the dorm. Hid out for a while and, apparently, decided to take his pain out on the world or whatever.

The shooter was working with two 9mm pistols (possibly at the same time?)and a bandolier with extra magazines and chained the front door of the building closed. Pretty sick puppy.

I'm not a law enforcement officer and my training in CQB is at best rudimentary, but, as a citizen, I have to ask: Why wasn't the SWAT team deployed to the campus as a QRF/contingency in the hours after the dorm killing but before the classroom rampage? Isn't this kind of situation (shooter at-large and probably of unsound mind in a target-rich environment) precisely the reason you have a SWAT team?

[The Reaper]

Thank God it wasn't an assault rifle.

Still, he seems to have an unusually high number of hits, and a lot of head shots, unless they were stationary contact shots.

Man with a couple of pistols can do a lot of damage, if no one is able to stop him.

No excuse I can think of for not going tactical and locking down after the first shooting.

TR

[ktek01]

That figure may or may not accurately reflect CCW permit holders. If I understand correctly, these include Privately owned weapons belonging to students living on campus. That's what I got from this statement at any rate.

YMMV

Good times,
blake

Cant find the article now, but it was a mix of both and the article didnt have a breakdown or any furhter details.

[Sdiver]

You know, this reminds me of the saying about the best gun to have is the one you have with you when the shooting starts.

By the same token, the best person to be carrying a gun is someone who is actually there on the scene when the trouble starts. Not someone who rolls up five minutes later.

At the same time, a CCW holder who engaged and killed the shooter would quickly have demands by the anti-gunners and MSM for his arrest as a "trigger-happy cowboy" looking for trouble, and lawsuits by the family of the killer as well as the students present who would no doubt be traumatized for life. You just can't win, but you might live another day.:rolleyes:

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Ain't that the truth.

But as the saying goes....."I'd rather be Tried by 12, than Carried by 6."

[FXCOfire]

Such a sad day... this after getting paged that firefighter in Prince William Co dying in a flashover on a victim search. My prayers go to the families... today is a sad reminder of all the suggestions that incidents like this will happen whether terrorist related or not.

TR,
There is so much to sort through as far as how victims were removed. I know from the fire/ems side in a very large dept, we do not train with police much nor are familiar with their operations. This disconnect forces us to hang back and wait. If they get overwhelmed then it is chaos. We have staged in front of residences ( in range of even a small pistol ) and showed up lights and sirens blaring. I am not familiar with police ops but joint training ops do not happen at the lowere levels. Strangely i brought a copy of an AAR where we did an exercise in a mall with a shooter taking out multiple victims. I will be reading over and over.

[Gypsy]

.

Maybe this will change something... Is a 30+ body count enough to change liberal bastards?


-Dub

No, it will just reinforce their small minded view that "guns kill people".

A very tragic incident, my prayers to the families that lost their loved ones and to those injured/wounded for speedy recovery. RIP.

[booker]

75 guns checked in with Campus Police.

That does not account for students that live off campus.


On a side note, he apparently went into a graduate class and opened fire, then came back after they began to call for help. Unfortunately, I have several (9) friends who are engineering grad students, hopefully I can hear something from them tonight.


I agree wholeheartedly with TR, they should have locked down campus after the first shooting. I received an email from the university @ 0950 and 1016, but never a mention of a first shooting. SNAFU from the beginning.

[Five-O]

No excuse I can think of for not going tactical and locking down after the first shooting.
TR

That is one of the places the shit storm is going to settle on the school administration and campus police....IMHO.

[Ambush Master]

Here's a very interesting article concerning "Our Right to Protection"!!!

It does not exist!!!

All that Law Enforcement is there to do is catch the bad guys after the fact!!

http://jimdark.com/files/2005_JulAug_DarkEditorial.pdf

Good read!

Later
Martin

[Team Sergeant]

I'm not a law enforcement officer and my training in CQB is at best rudimentary, but, as a citizen, I have to ask: Why wasn't the SWAT team deployed to the campus as a QRF/contingency in the hours after the dorm killing but before the classroom rampage? Isn't this kind of situation (shooter at-large and probably of unsound mind in a target-rich environment) precisely the reason you have a SWAT team?

Your thinking is years old.

Today's LEO's use "active shooter" and active shooter training to overcome that very situation. If you wait for SWAT to assemble many would die from blood loss like the Columbine High School massacre.

Also soulds like you never worked with LEO's, SWAT etc. A QRF for a small town in Va.,or anywhere, you going to foot the bill? Get real.

TS

[futureSoldier]

An update: I finally got to have a conversation with my sister. She lives in the hall directly next to West AJ. Her roommate left around 8am and was out and about campus without ever being notified of any incident. As a civilian, with no experience in anything tactical, this is sickening (these are dorms, not apartments-these people are responsible for the safety of the students). 40ft away from a shooting with a shooter on the loose and no notification for 2 HOURS. Her best friend lives in West AJ and she didn't find out until AFTER the second shooting. They keep saying that time was of the essence, hell they took 2 damn hours to notify anyone in any way. Notify all RAs, use bullhorns, block roads, anything that would scare people to death and they would all go home/back to dorm rooms and would have cleared the area.


On a side note, it seems to me that this is a prime example of poor leadership, especially in comparison with Iraq. Bush didn't wait for Saddam to act on his threats, he took him out. They waited and bs'd around and 30 couple people died.

Joe

[MAB32]

Booker, glad to hear you are OK! My prayers go out to everone involved.

Everybody here so far has had excellent points brought up.

TR, when we were taught to enter a building for an "active shooter", the first three people that showed up are the entry team, period. The next set of three will go to another door, etc., etc. We were also taught to completely ignore the wounded no mater how bad it got. Our job was one thing and one thing only; To find the shooter an eliminate him/her. After that is done, barring any second shooter we would then ask for EMS to come in and they would be escorted in by the SWAT Team(s) that are arriving. It sound like some of the arriving LEO's did just that, but, arrived on the second floor where the shooting was taken place as the last shot was fired, supposedly this last shot was the POS taking his own life. Sorry for the rehash of a post we had a few years ago but I thought it was worth mentioning again.

Here in Ohio, guns are forbidden on campuses too. When I attended two different colleges, I took the time to talk to campus police and tell/show them who I was and that I was carrying. One university told me to never bring it in again no matter who I was. I am a little on the stubborn side so I took the position of, "what they don't know won't hurt them. The other university asked me to check in when I was on campus so that they could see what I was wearing that day. Not a bad idea.

You can bet on one thing though. "Gun control" will be talked about in the next few months in Congress. And that "Assault Weapons" ban may get accelerated to the forefront even though the murder weapon was supposedly two 9mm's.

This also reminds me in a sort of way to what happened at Kent State. If then Govenor Rhodes had shut the campus down like he should have after the burning of the ROTC building, that incident probably would of never taken place either. This gentleman in charge of V-Tech should have done the exact same thing I'm afaraid. All IMHO.

[Peregrino]

Victim disarmament zones work. Prayers for the victims, their families, and the rest of this country. America's prospects as a free nation just got a lot darker. The fallout from this single act of pre-meditated mass murder will reverberate for a very long time.

How long before a sensationalist media starts throwing comparisons to Breslan? What will happen when a real terrorist incident inevitably comes to pass?

Why haven't any details about the gunman been released?

God help us all. Peregrino

[The Reaper]

Why haven't any details about the gunman been released?

God help us all. Peregrino

They have, supposedly an Asian male, maroon beret, and a black jacket, blew his face off so badly in his suicide that he is unidentified.

At least one other Asian male was detained, police will not confirm or deny that they may be seeking others.

If he turns out to be a Muslim, this could get very ugly indeed.

More immigrant fun. Updated to add:

TR

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/343354,vatech041607.article

Gunman kills 32 at Virginia Tech before being killed

April 16, 2007
BY MICHAEL SNEED Sun-Times Columnist

Authorities were investigating whether the gunman who killed 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history was a Chinese man who arrived in the United States last year on a student visa.

The 24-year-old man arrived in San Francisco on United Airlines on Aug. 7 on a visa issued in Shanghai, the source said. Investigators have not linked him to any terrorist groups, the source said.

Police believe three bomb threats on the campus last week may have been attempts by the man to test the campus’ security response, the source said.

The exits to the buildings where the shootings occurred were chained by the shooter, the source said.

Students complained that there were no public address announcements or other warnings on campus after the first burst of gunfire. They said the first word they received from the university was an e-mail more than two hours into the rampage — around the time the gunman struck again.

Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said authorities believed the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.

‘‘We had no reason to suspect any other incident was going to occur,’’ he said.

He defended the university’s handling of the tragedy: ‘‘We can only make decisions based on the information you had on the time. You don’t have hours to reflect on it.’’

Steger said the university decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means of notifying members of the university, but with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out to everyone.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum would not say how many weapons the gunman carried. But a law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation was incomplete, said that the gunman had two pistols and multiple clips of ammunition.

[x-factor]

TS - No I haven't ever worked with law enforcement, but I know that the lesson of Columbine was to go after the shooter with whatever you've got immediately on hand rather than wait for SWAT.

QRF probably wasn't the right term. I know a small police department wouldn't have a specialized unit, but Blacksburg does have a SWAT team. All I meant by "QRF" was prestaging the SWAT team to a central location on campus after the dorm shooting so that they could react more quickly if/when the shooter struck again (which of course he did).

I'm not throwing accusations, just trying to reason through the scenario.

It seems the key questions are a) who first responded to the classroom shooting and b) did they enter the building immediately upon arriving on scene? (I haven't seen either of this in the news.) My questions about a pre-staged SWAT unit really only apply if the regular police were delayed (either by distance or hesitation).

If the guy managed to kill all 30 victims before anyone arrived at the scene, then its a moot point and the only question is why the campus wasn't in lockdown after the dorm killing.

Really I should wait to see a timeline before I go on another speculating binge...

[Dub]

They have, supposedly an Asian male, maroon beret, and a black jacket, blew his face off so badly in his suicide that he is unidentified.

At least one other Asian male was detained, police will not confirm or deny that they may be seeking others.

If he turns out to be a Muslim, this could get very ugly indeed.




If he is Muslim it could serve as reminder to those ever forgetfull sheeple of how worthwhile it is to fight the twisted form of the islamic faith. Maybe... or they will just push it under the rug and wait for it to happen again.

-Dub

[TF Kilo]

I carry everywhere they don't have metal detectors. My wife does as well. I will not die like a cow led to a slaughterhouse, regardless of what litigation there is in place.

Georgia concealed carry law allows Military to carry anywhere in the state unless federally mandated otherwise. Schools, Bars, etc.

A school is the perfect place for a massacre, if you are twisted enough to get pleasure from such a thing. It's been well known since people have begun to think that a bunch of paper will stop a bullet.

I'll put my faith in my knowledge before I put it in any law. Daily, it is proven that laws don't help, because people are breaking them daily. What does enacting another law do?

With the number of dead/injured, this guy had to reload a couple times. I'm amazed noone even tried to bumrush him.

The best defense, offense, and medicine, is fire superiority. These poor guys didn't have a chance, thanks to inane laws.

[G]

This is so sad....

Without judging those at the shooting in any way, something you may find interesting about three attempted mass shootings in Melbourne:

1. 1999 Gunman enters pub / cafeteria at Latrobe University, shoots and kills barman and is immediately taken down by unarmed bystanders in the room. He says at trial that he intended to kill between 8 and 11 people.

2. 2001 Gunman arrives at Fertility / Abortion clinic in the city, shoots and kills security guard with a rifle, walks into clinic and points rifle at pregnant woman and is immediately taken down by her (unarmed) husband and another man before he can shoot.

3. 2002 Student walks into lecture theatre at Monash University, Clayton (suburb of Melbourne), and starts shooting with two pistols - kills two students, wounds others, gets taken down by (unarmed) wounded lecturer and other students.

I also remember the unarmed guys who took out the shooter with the SKS at the White House in 1994. I'll never forget the sight of the USSS SWAT guys attempting to climb the fence after the civilians had taken the shooter down.

These incidents speak to me about willingness to do what it takes to live and to save lives, by people who are untrained and unprepared.

Prayers out to those involved today...

G

[ktek01]

This is so sad....

Without judging those at the shooting in any way, something you may find interesting about three attempted mass shootings in Melbourne:

G


A lot end like that in the US too, but when bystanders act and especially when they present an armed response it gets very little mention in the media. An example, this article on the Pearl High School shooting by the "Violence Policy Center" does give credit to the Assistant Principal for running the shooter off the road. They dont mention that he was in his car after sprinting to it so he could retrieve his gun, and that he had parked off campus to comply with the law and held the shooter at gunpoint for 11 minutes before Police arrived.

http://vpc.org/studies/wgun971001.htm

This article gives the rest of the story,

http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/101297/LA0540.htm

An interesting article on media coverage of armed responses to mass shootings. http://www.gunowners.org/sk0304.htm

From the above for those that dont want to clicky linky
"A Lexis-Nexis search indicates that 687 articles appeared in the first month after the attack. Only 16 stories mentioned Myrick. Only a little more than half of these mentioned he used a gun to stop the attack."

[blustr18b]

Such a sad day. I got news that a close friend's son who attends VT was very near the shooting as he was on his way to the engineering building for class. He had no notification of anything wrong on campus. Thank God he was not hurt, but never would we have thought he would be in harm's way on a U.S. college campus....

Many prayers for the families of these young students.

blustr

[CoLawman]

If you are a cop or a CCW permit holder and you fail to carry a gun at all times Shame On YOU! This massacre should have and could have been avoided had one person out of the dozens he came into contact with had a gun.

Law Enforcement is not going to ever be able to stop this type of carnage. Never!

Sheep need Sheepdogs, a point that has been asserted and reasserted, yet again we are going to bury some of the flock..............as no one made a conscious decision to use whatever means they had to disarm this punk.

I am mad at the world right now. I have too many children in schools, at the mall, in a movie, easy targets for these punks. Oh and there will be more. This much notoriety always brings the copycats out.

I will always be prepared, and armed, to help your child or family member. Will you be armed and ready to protect my child or family member?

[TF Kilo]

If you are a cop or a CCW permit holder and you fail to carry a gun at all times Shame On YOU! This massacre should have and could have been avoided had one person out of the dozens he came into contact with had a gun.

but it's illegal to carry guns at a school

wait, that didn't do anything good here.

[sg1987]

I watched a newborn child of mine die and it really hurt. I can’t begin to imagine the pain of losing a child that you’ve had for18-20 years! May the Lord somehow bring peace and comfort to these families and hopefully some common sense to the liberal sheeple in our country.

[JPH]

CNN = Communist News Network

It is 0950CT and headline news just did a 4 min segment on “how easy it is to get a 9mm and 22mm hand gun” they talked about a Glock and showed a 92F, they talked about how this “Military and Police round” is used in more than round in crimes….

22mm handgun… don’t get me started on this but yes that’s what they said and by the way they showed a photo of a .32 or .380 when talking about this “22mm”

If I had the cash I would skip my classes at Missouri State University today and go buy more “Military and Police rounds” or spend my day looking for one of these “22mm” handguns… lol but I don’t so I will continue to maintain SA, provide for my own personal security, and teach those that are receptive the truth about our 2nd amendment rights.

To those suffering directly from this incident my thoughts and prays are with you.

JPH

[Team Sergeant]

.....as no one made a conscious decision to use whatever means they had to disarm this punk.



That, sadly, speaks volumes about today's American society.

TS

[BrianH]

CNN = Communist News Network

It is 0950CT and headline news just did a 4 min segment on “how easy it is to get a 9mm and 22mm hand gun” they talked about a Glock and showed a 92F, they talked about how this “Military and Police round” is used in more than round in crimes….

22mm handgun… don’t get me started on this but yes that’s what they said and by the way they showed a photo of a .32 or .380 when talking about this “22mm”

I just saw a clip where they showed "just how fast" a 92F can be reloaded. The reporter was in a gun shop, and the clerk demonstrated dropping the magazine, putting another one in, and pulling the slide.

"Wow... so it's just that easy?"
"It's just that easy."
"And how fast could you shoot those bullets?"
"As fast as your finger can squeeze."

A few moments later, he shows a .45 round sitting next to a 9mm round, discussing how a 9mm is "still a pretty big round, that packs a big punch" (the reporter pounded his fist into his palm for added effect). I won't even discuss how they played stock footage from 50 Cent's movie.

They didn't, however, show a .22LR. Instead, CNN cut to a "security specialist" saying that a ".22 will kill you just as dead as a 9mm". Exactly right, but showing the bullet didn't help CNN's demonization tactics, so they didn't do it.

[Razor]

...got caught with a couple of "high-powered rifles" (I don't know which they were, but probably assault weapons of some type)...

So they were capable of fully automatic fire? Don't fall into the anti-gun trap of changing definitions to suit your cause.

[Smokin Joe]

I'm glad to hear that you are safe Booker.

Does anyone know how long it took from the time this turned into an active shooter until LEO's were on scene moving to the sound of gun fire?

This is all I've been able to find.

9:45 a.m.

The VT PD received a 911 call of a shooting at Norris Hall, which contains faculty offices, classrooms, and laboratories. VT PD and Blacksburg PD immediately responded to Norris Hall. Notice in leadership command center via our police rep of a shooting in Norris.

Upon arrival to Norris Hall, the officers found the front doors barricaded. Within a minute, the officers breached the doors, which had been chained shut from the inside.

Once inside the building, the officers heard gunshots. They followed the succession of gunshots to the second floor. Just as the officers reached the second floor, the gunshots stopped.

The officers discovered the gunman, who had taken his own life. There was never any engagement between the responding officers and the gunman.
9:55 a.m.

I'm curious if the LEO's even had an opportunity to smoke this fucker or not.

[Pandora]

While I'm no Liberal Bunny, else it would be entirely unlikely that I'd have learned from and enjoyed this site for years since it's inception... I will welcome banning to redirect your attention to a premise that is preached here daily, but is certainly not being lived by currently.

I cannot imagine a scenario at all where I would second-guess the actions of ANY military personnel in the manner that untrained, scared Kids have been judged here over the past 4 pages of posts. It's like reading a rag-mag... "Prayers turn to gun fights."

I won't even aplogize for this statement, but if I was a Good Officer, right now I'd be instructing you all to, "Dial it back a notch."

I agree entirely that many people coulda/shoulda/woulda reacted more proactively and aggressively to save lives if they'd had your combined experience and training.

That said, the posted responses to the tradgedy at Virginia Tech beyond page Two entirely disregard several consistent and pervasive threads of learning that are promoted and preached herein:

1. Be aware of your surroundings

You're evaluating public responses/media based upon your own training.

Pages One and Two of this thread seemed to comprehend the spiritual impact of this event and appropriately sent out prayers to all impacted, but further responses evaluated victim reactions based upon your own experiences. These are NOT military victims or families - and they certainly aren't SF folk that you're judging.

If you are pissed at the outcome based upon the government's, V Tech Admin or the campus police actions - be specific in your critiques and caveat it those with either prayers or best wishes for the Kids and thier families. Demonstrate the commitment to common-sense that is usually in evidence here on a daily basis.

If 'Untrained , untried and critically-challenged 20 year-old Joe Average,' has been expected to think, react and respond like you elite guys do after umpteen years of training and,"under fire," experience, then what makes you the professional and elite personnel that you are?

If you're pissed at OPS and Admin, say so. Provide clear directives.

Often, you don't even hold 80% of the non-SF tandard forces in live-action theatres up to your expected level of response capabilities in day-today evaluations - why would you judge panicked, untrained Kids so harshly in comparison? Why would you post all-encompassing smack-downs versus prayers?

I am certain many of those kids would have liked to step up and take control - but they simply didn't know HOW.

Training. Training makes you all experts, Gurus, deeply respected and professionals. And you ARE special and worthy of respect. So, too, are the sheeple kids who were shot.


2. Evade & Escape.
Not a single student who opted to bail out the window should be deemed a coward for choosing "Flight" over "Fight". Most of these children have probably had zero instruction in basic self defense, much less implied knowledge on the commitment it takes to "take a bullet," for a Brother. Certainly, that would be an inherant instinct for some here, but for many others, that type of deep-seated commitment was grown during shared experiences unlike those these kids fostered in German class.

There is ZERO sarcasm in the above statement. I come back here lurking time and again to learn from Professionals all of the war skills that will make me a stronger being strategically, logically and in discipline.

That said, for the first time ever, PS has sadly disappointed me -- for all of the experience and knowledge, it's been transposed into a media-style blog about the NRA and gun controls.

For all of your brialliance, honour and valour, Gents - you forgot compassion & your ability to guide based upon real experiences.

You jumped upon failures and forgot that the victims were scared - untrained kids - in the last few pages.

You forgot that it is just as important to guide Buddies through the pain of losing a day-today comrade (even if they are unarmed pacifists) - you were not aware of your surroundings and the chance to pool your brains, experiences and thoughts into something more productive than a generic, typical NRA argument.

Bash on the V. Tech campus police and Administration. That makes some sense, although offering up you expertise in an advisory manner would be far more productive than posting arm-chair opinions.

TS, bring on the ban after this post. I deserve it.

So, too, do you Captains of Valour, deserve a reminder to redirect your expertise to guidance and away from postulating without compassion.

For every disparging word posted here over multiple pages about non-Heroes - 20 year-old, untrained, untried kids expected to be "more" without a smidgen of your knowledge... go post something useful and positive elsewhere to their familes or the University based upon your expertise.

It's finally hit home that the Elite are also, sadly... human. No others have the rare assets you have to offer to others in regards to instruction for improving security - or handling loss.

Nonetheless, this is thread now about NRA lobbying. No need to help you down of your pedestals...

There are many who lurk here, daily grateful for your sacrifices. We lobby on behalf of veterans, we cheerlead, we honor and respect you all - from the elite to the line-cook.

But, perhaps we're wrong? Perhaps, the only lives worth honoring are those of you in uniform or directly related? Perhaps these Scared Kids really are are worthy of the kind of judgement, second-guessing and disrespect that you daily fight against for you Own?

And if nothing else - lock this thread, delete it - have at it.

BUT begin a new one with the same "RIP's," "Prayers Sent," and respect that you'd post for our beloved military service people. Service bought their ticket. They DO deserve extra prayer for knowingly signing up to protect the rest of us lame sheeple.

On behalf of the rest of the Sheep.... guide them now. Step outside of the box and show a little compassion for untrained Kids, darn it. Guide those who follow - these are the people you sign up to protect, aren't they?

Pandora - OUT

[blue02hd]

Pandora's Box.

Your post not only is out of line, but biased and very ungrounded. You seem to be angry at the posts you have seen here, and write as if it is a shock to you. I won't bother quoting you, you are a man, and know what you said. You better be able to stand behind what you say however. You claim to have read this site for years, and until now have been content? I would say you have not read it completely, and have not learned much. You are surprised at the responses given here and claim this is nothing more than an NRA blog now? As if the men here have nothing better to offer than to push a political aganda? The fact that you are offended by these posts only confirm to me that you do NOT understand what it is to seen horror with your own eyes.

Let me ask you some simple questions Mr Canadian software analyst:

When was the last time you frantically tried to stop someones bleeding?

When was the last time you lost a friend to gunfire??

When was the last time YOU ran to the sound of the guns??

When was the last time you made a decision to disregard your own safety for the welfare of a total stranger?

Have you a clue about what it is that we in the service and the police in the field have committed ourselves to?

What site do you think this is? Many here can answer the questions I ask with an affirmative YES, and have lived through the anger, frustration, and loss that come with each and everyone.

While you find offense in the actions, we find offense in the inactions. You talk like a sheep in a forum for sheepdogs. You see, you will not understand what we see unless you have seen it before yourself. No amount of lurking on the internet, reading, or watching Hollywood shoot em ups will ever educate you to the level you seemingly credit yourself with.

Before you start painting this site in such a diminishing coat of paint you better follow your own advice and be specific. The mere fact that you are brandoning us all "Captains of Valour" is only an example of your own stupidity. This site has a wide variety of responses from guys who have BTDT, and responses from LEO's who are currently serving and protecting. I have read many posts of inspiration and courage, but I guess I have not been wearing your Rose Colored glasses.

You had better remember your SA. If you want to hug and kiss with other sheep and feel bad about life then I suggest take it to another site.

But honestly, IMHO, your decision to vent here on this site was ill conceived and irrelevant. You have done nothing to earn respect here, and if you think posting such an inflammatory thread here gives you "street credit", then you have learned nothing.

And lastly, in the future try and stand on your own two feet instead of inviting an Admin to lock this site. Show some conviction and let those you so easily degrade respond back.

I'm done with you.

[Pete]

Good Hi jack of a thread Pandora. Turning it into "It's not about them, it's about us (you)".

I hope you feel better after typing that. Did not make any impression on me.

We are what we are and we, of all people, realize we are only human. We know that we can only do so much, but we still continue to do our best to the end.

Pete

Who is a Life member of the NRA and wished they would do more.

[sg1987]

Pandora’s Box,
I count myself a Christian and one who is quite compassionate. I am not a Q/P. and would not presume to answer for them; however I would make an observation.
I agree that training plays a pivotal role in making the elite. There is also something to be said for the innate qualities found within the heart of a warrior.
Many times I’ve heard the compassion that you are looking to see in words such as “Damn, why didn’t the SOLDIERS fight back? How is it that they were taken alive?” These are words of a warrior that feels pain in his heart due to the horrible deaths of fellow service members. If they express this for fellow soldiers, how much more so for kids in school – kids that are of age to serve in the military now. I suspect that many do not serve because of the lack of innate qualities needed for the job.
The frustrations expressed by the members here are because of the needless loss of life that could be avoided or curtailed if not for the “Sheep” mindset of many.
There are some stories that are emerging of heroic acts, but sadly most of the victims were like lost sheep, not due to lack of training or being locked in a classroom; instead they are locked into a mindset.

[G]

Maybe now, more people will act like sheepdogs in similar situations. Maybe, just like what happens in the air post 9/11 when a passenger gets crazy or out of control in some way, the other passengers deal with it, fast and decisively. Maybe.....

G

[Ret10Echo]

Poker of bees nests is correct Pandora..

Hillsdale College, January 2002....you should look that up.

[CoLawman]

[QUOTE=Pandora]
I agree entirely that many people coulda/shoulda/woulda reacted more proactively and aggressively to save lives if they'd had your combined experience and training.

This statement succinctly establishes the mindset of the sheep.

"...IF they'd had your combined experience and training."

Further, your comment about Fight or Flight shows a narrow comprehension of this physiological response to a psychological stimulus ending in an action. IMO LTC Grossman ,et al, properly dispel the either or proposition. POSTURING and SUBMISSION are also reactions to the F or F Syndrome. Submission is what sheep do.

I apologize for leaving my lane, just wanted to get my .02 worth out based on 20 years of Forensic Psychoanalyst experience.

[CoLawman]

Poker of bees nests is correct Pandora..

Hillsdale College, January 2002....you should look that up.

Bullseye!

[The Reaper]

Not sure where this slid sideways, but let me toss a few comments into this mess.

I have not seen any real criticism of the students who tried to escape, or the people who may have tried to stop the gunman. I offered that I have told my kids not to stay in the classroom in lockdown during a school shooting incident, but to flee.

No one expects unarmed civilians to act like trained professionals. I would say that those who merely sat there or turned their heads while the scumbag in question was walking through, taking headshots on them acted like sheep. Fight, or flight. Don't freeze. Even people without military training should be aware when they enter any interior space of where the exit routes are for fire, earthquakes, etc. Have you ever flown or seen the evacuation signs on the walls? We are first responsible for our own safety. If we fail to take actions when immediate danger threatens, other than to sit there and wait, we are sheeple. I would hope that my own kids, nine and eleven years old, would escape rather than wait. No one expects them to execute a disarming technique and to hold the shooter for the authorities.

No one has all of the facts yet, I am sure that they will come out during the course of the investigation. However, based on what I have seen so far, the administration failed in allowing classes to continue after a double homicide without the suspect in custody. The LE response I have seen on tape appears to be slow and tentative. The medical response which I questioned appears to be grossly inadequate in evacuating the victims to a casualty collection point. The actions of Professor Liviu Librescu (who I am proud to consider an American) are above and beyond. The students who jumped or fled did the right thing. Anyone who attempted to disarm the shooter did the right thing. Those who knelt and waited for him did the wrong thing, but they are not guilty of anything. I believe that I offered prayers for all of the victims. The murderer was a sorry scumbag. I only wish that he started his rampage by killing himself, rather than ending it that way.

You might look for the thread on the Israeli professor for some sense of what we are saying.

You say "NRA" like it is a dirty word, and seem to be a believer in the media propoganda war against the NRA. I recommend that you do some more independent research before buying into that argument. The killer used a normal handgun like any person who wanted to carry for self-defense or police officer would. In the course of his rampage, he had to stop and reload multiple times, during which his primary weapon was down. Would you have been happier if he had used explosives or a truck to attack and kill the students? Schools have been dynamited with students inside before. Do we ban all explosives because of that? Is the car responsible for drunk driving?

The fact that the students were not allowed to be armed in accordance with the law to protect themselves is a serious issue. One armed student or professor could have ended this before it got beyond the first few shots.

I do not know how things are in Canada, but in the US, the SCOTUS has determined that LE is not legally responsible for protecting anyone. I take it as a personal responsibility, and have, in the past, carried where I was not supposed to, fully prepared to live with the consequences of defending myself or others rather than to die or let others die at the hands of a madman or thug. I would rather suffer the legal consequences of defending you rather than the moral ones of watching people be hurt while I had the means to stop it. Should I reconsider my actions because you find some of this dialogue offensive? Perhaps the sheep are finally taking over.

Consider this before becoming so indignant again. The armed forces of the US and Canada and the LEOs combined comprise less than 1% of our populations. That is all that stands between us and people like the killers. What have you done for your country, your fellow citizens, or to better prepare yourself?

I have previously enjoyed your posts and discussions with you. I do not know what has triggered your sudden problem with us, perhaps you have been glued to your tube, absorbing all of the angst and anti-NRA rhetoric. At the same time, I believe that you are aware that this board is by and for SF personnel, and the guests who wish to visit. We are asking serious questions here about the response to this tragedy, and root causes. If you find our comments so disturbing or offensive, I suggest that you either stop reading this thread, or stop visiting PS.com altogether. Unlike the Soviet Union, where there was only one channel, I am sure that there are plenty of other places you can visit, where like minded people sit and kvetch, whining, moaning, and blaming inanimate objects like guns for all of the troubles of the world.

Hope you feel better soon.

TR

[booker]

Pandora-

As a student at Virginia Tech (and a military veteran) I find your diatribe ignorant and pestilent. Do you think that the 76 year old professor had any "elite" military training? The words of the QP's on this site have been echoed by many in the days that have followed the event, thus giving more credibility to their knowledge and experiences. I know how I would have reacted in such a situation, and I know how many of my peers (mostly non-military) would have reacted. Sadly, we are a minority on any college campus across the nation (with the exception of VMI and USMA) that would not idly sit by and watch others be gunned down without expending that energy necessary to, whether ultimately successful or not, try to end the situation. I stand by the comments posted by myself and others on this site. Finally, this has become a gun control debate very quickly, with the argument started by the Dems (I forget the politician's name, but Tuesday morning he was on one of the news shows blaming "Virginia's lack of strict gun laws" for the incident). Any person on this site has reason to be worried that this incident will be extrapolated and used as the basis for stricter (read as: unecessary) gun laws that will impede the law abiding citizen's right to bear arms. Granted, Canada may not understand this issue.




TR-

Great post sir!

[Warrior-Mentor]

Pandora,

It's tough situation. Clearly being caught without weapons or even training makes it an extreme situation. Even with training it would be VERY difficult. I hope never to be put in that position. Further restrictions on CCW Permits will only make this more, not less likely. Worth looking at Texas and Arizona and evaluate "Why hide the fact that you are carrying?"

Yet on 9/11, the words "LET'S ROLL!" took on new meaning. Untrained, unarmed people (granted, adults) took fate into their own hands and likely saved countless lives.

I will not disparage the actions of any of the students or faculty. It is completely rational for an unarmed person to flee a gun fight. But what if you can't flee? At that point, you must accept that you're dead and fight to prevent that from happening. One can never know how one might respond until put in that position.

What can be questioned, is our mentality, as a society. Personal responsibility...to be prepared for the worst...at any time...yet some will paint this as being a paranoid survivalist. Others will say, it's just smart to follow the Boy Scout motto and "Be Prepared."

The cliche "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." is absolutely true.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of the victims.

[CPTAUSRET]

Not to detract from the topic at hand, but we wre going to be there tomorrow. Nancy has been scheduled to give a talk (at VT) for some time, and she is going to do so.

[Air.177]

OK,

Bid of a sidetrack here, but why are these victims being called "Children" ?

They were COLLEGE STUDENTS, I doubt anyone under the age of 18 was wounded. I could be wrong (obviously) but these people are exactly the same age as the troops that are prosecuting a war on the other side of the world. The loss of life is unfortunate and regrettable; but those who chose neither to fight nor to flee, were old enough to know better and should not have needed an "adult" to tell them that they were in a bad spot and needed to do something.

Perhaps those who say that the victims were untrained are right. They were not trained to bring the fight to the enemy, nor even to hold their own if the fight is brought to them. However; if at the post-graduate level, these people do not have the common sense to get the hell out of a gunfight in which they are an unwilling participant, perhaps we should re-examine our educational values and possibly attempt to instill some common sense at an earlier stage.

My .02, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

YMMV,
Good times,
blake

[Ret10Echo]

OK,

Bid of a sidetrack here, but why are these victims being called "Children" ?

They were COLLEGE STUDENTS, I doubt anyone under the age of 18 was wounded. I could be wrong (obviously) but these people are exactly the same age as the troops that are prosecuting a war on the other side of the world. The loss of life is unfortunate and regrettable; but those who chose neither to fight nor to flee, were old enough to know better and should not have needed an "adult" to tell them that they were in a bad spot and needed to do something.

Perhaps those who say that the victims were untrained are right. They were not trained to bring the fight to the enemy, nor even to hold their own if the fight is brought to them. However; if at the post-graduate level, these people do not have the common sense to get the hell out of a gunfight in which they are an unwilling participant, perhaps we should re-examine our educational values and possibly attempt to instill some common sense at an earlier stage.

My .02, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

YMMV,
Good times,
blake

Because reference to the vicitms as children increases the impact of the story on the general public.

[The Reaper]

Because reference to the vicitms as children increases the impact of the story on the general public.

Exactly.

Are we allowing "children" to vote and serve in the military?

When the media whines about 80 "children" per day being killed in the US by firearms, they include people up to 21 to 25 years of age, and even include those shot by LEOs in the line of duty.

The real number of people under the age of 18 accidentally killed by firearms in this country is at an all-time low, somewhere between 1 and 2 per day, IIRC. But that is not a real interesting story.

That does not take away from the loss of these young adults, who had most of their lives ahead of them.

I am sorry that for ten minutes, Hell was allowed to reign on Va Tech's campus, courtesy of a little punk who should have been cut down within the first mag.

RIP, those who are gone, Godspeed, and prayers out to friends and family left behind. Heal quickly and painlessly those who are wounded. I hope that you soon find peace, those who escaped, but are traumatized. Thank God for people like Professor Librescu, Sir, you are a hero. Thanks to all of those who responded and did their duties to the best of their abilities. To those who are greatly disturbed by this tragedy, think about how you could change the way you live to better be prepared to survive such an incident. I know that I am a bad Christian for saying this, but I hope that the shooter rots in Hell for all eternity.

I cannot turn on the TV to keep up with world events without being bombarded by the MSM and an anti-gun message.

TR

[SOCOM8721]

A 76 year old professor that was a Holocaust survivor. His mindset had to be..."NEVER AGAIN"

Having a little experience in this type of situation (responded to Columbine on 20 April 1999), The police, though some are ex-military are responding into a situation of unknown number of subjects with many folks running away from the location when they arrive and active small arms fire being heard into a location that has been barracaded (locked) by the subject.

CHAOS...

The action of a brave few will always save many.

Civilians will always duck and cover first. They are not trained to move to contact. It is only after the situtation has set in for a few seconds or minutes that civilians have time to process the thoughts and mount a defense.

My young children have been and are being trained to react to situations regarding armed as well as unarmed subjects. It is up to us as individuals to protect ourselves, our families and our property.

Just as it is up to us to listen to and heed an evacuation order for a Hurricane, provide for our families and our loved ones in the event of these emergencies and not for us to rely on the government.

The police response time should always be considered a minimum of 5 minutes. How long does a hit and run firefight really last???

As a child I was taught these things by my grand father (WWI and WWII), my father (VN) and mother (LEO), the boy scouts (Be Prepared) and then the US Army (20 + year veteran).

I pass these things on to my children and hope and expect that any other good parent would as well. You may not like to think that this could ever happen to you or your loved ones but these things can happen to anyone.

My heart goes out to those who have suffered personal tragedies such as these.

I second guess not one person in authority here. What you and I think, or know that we would do has no bearing on what someone next to you would do if you have not been in battle with them.

There were many things that happened at Columbine that have never been released to the public, and all involved have been put under court order and seal not to reveal.

That was a mistake. How can we learn without the information.

I hope that they are open and have full disclosure of what went down here and what this perpetrator has done.

I hope that people wake up and start going through a scenarios and reactions to these scenarios with their children just as you would with a fire drill.

My hat is off to the brave individuals who kept their heads under fire and reacted in order to save the lives of many. This 30+ dead easily would have been 70, 80 as he returned to the rooms to kill more only to meet closed and barricaded classroom doors.

[Air.177]

Not to detract from the topic at hand, but we wre going to be there tomorrow. Nancy has been scheduled to give a talk (at VT) for some time, and she is going to do so.


You know Terry; It's against school policy to carry a firearm on campus:rolleyes:

Have a safe trip.

[Team Sergeant]

TS, bring on the ban after this post. I deserve it.

Guide those who follow - these are the people you sign up to protect, aren't they?

Pandora - OUT

No banning today, not for you anyway. We can agree to disagree all day long.

Kids, I think not, all at that school are old enough to drive, vote and enlist in the military. I was 17 when I made the conscious decision to join the military. If someone would have called me a kid in uniform we would have had a problem.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The oath I took was to defend the "Constitution of the United States" not the people. Yes, we can talk semantics’ all day long but it boils down to Freedom. We are defenders of freedom, nothing more nothing less. It's a concept that's been around a long time and it would seem many are forgetting what freedom is and the cost. We know the cost of freedom. Professor Librescu knew the cost and as NDD stated, Professor Librescu probably made up his mind a long time ago what his actions would be when and if ever again he confronted by an evil man.

There are a few things, IMO, that are worth dying for and at the top of our list is freedom. When sheeple speak of removing our freedoms we get understandably upset. I don’t expect most to understand, not unless they themselves have not only defended freedom but another’s life or freedom as well.

This used to be a country where we looked out for each other and defended each others children, not any more. We’ve become a nation of me’s, and me first. Very few know what selfless service or a selfless act is let alone actually performing one. Professor Librescu committed a selfless act and he alone paid the cost. As another has pointed out Professor Librescu had no elite training and even if he did at 76 he was no match for the armed mad-man.

It is not the warrior-elite that are the hero’s of today’s society it is those ordinary men and women that step up and answer the call in extraordinary circumstances, they are the hero’s. Professor Librescu is a true hero.

Society takes for granted that “we” would answer the call and do what is necessary to stop the evil men. That may be so but, people need to take responsibility for each other and do what is necessary to stop the evil men when they come face to face with them. We will not always be there.

I’m afraid that if the Titanic went down today I don't think we'd see the same sort of sad ending.

Team Sergeant

[SOCOM8721]

KUDOS TS...

That says it all...

[Ret10Echo]

Pandora served the purpose of sparking people to THINK about the incident. The mutual admiration society (a.k.a. the cool-aide drinkers) is not what people should seek. Iron sharpens Iron...you don't get mentally tougher by hanging with a bunch of "Yes" men (contrary to the thought of many of the politicos). Hearing an opposing opinion makes you examine yours. Those who are weak will knuckle under to what is perceived as "popular belief". Those unable to support their position with facts are OBE..not worth the time.

[JGarcia]

Ditto, they do the same thing with the deaths of Soldiers in Iraq----

"Our Children are dying in Iraq." It's an impact maker.

When I was in college, I had a class where we had to take one side of a hot button issue or the other. I of course, opted to defend gun rights. During the discussion, I brought up the FACT that the Police and the Government have no legal obligation to protect you. The class challenged me on that, demanding my sources, they were stunned to find this to be true.

There are lots of 'good' statistics out there about armed civilians that don't get talked up very much.

TR, excellent points (as usual). The one in particular that I will add to my repetoire is about Police, etc., being < 1% of the population.

Can we disregard the firearms for now, and focus on the real problem. No not security, the Police, the school, how bout the Parents? What occurred in this young man's environment during his upbringing to make him this way? It is an unnatural act to decide to arbitrarily shoot 33+ people, who are not threatening you witj death or the deaths of others. Somethings are happening at these middle class homes across the country, and in rare instances it manifests itself as a spectacular incidence of violence directed at people they barely know. Since the incidence of these attacks are infrequent, it shouldn't be too difficult for behavior scientists to take apart the environment of the criminals in these cases; in order to expose common threads or ingredients if you will. There are certain things that when you throw them into the mix will certainly result in the Mr. Cho's of the world.

What can parents do to make sure they aren't making more Mr. Cho's? What can communities do to identify these kids that the parents aren't? We have to get to these kids before the recipe is mixed and sent into the oven. Can we reach out to them? Get them involved in scouting, get them involved with other people in meaningful ways.

This aint a gun problem, this is a society problem. We are teaching this behavior to people, not intentionally obviously. So where is it that a boy decides to avoid people and see them as dangerous threats? What is different in the upbringing of a young man that dons a long tab one day and a Mr. Cho? The future of gun rights, of our nation, depends on the children of the family two doors down from you. WE the Men of our country, if we sincerely wish to pass on our American heritage have to ensure that it is passed on to other peoples kids, because gents, WE aren't having as many kids as the illegals that got here last month, because gents, there are houses a plenty where both parents are working 40+ hours a week and the kids are up to who knows what. Because gents, the kids spend more time with a socialist minded university educated teacher in a class room than they spend with their parents or guys like you and me. That teacher develops these new Americans in a micro universe of what they would like a new America to be. A place where defending yourself gets you suspended from being a part of society.

We are spinning our wheels if we think that this problem is about gun control. Its about minds. There are fewer and fewer minds like ours every day. What are we doing to make more of them? If we keep on doing like we are, guns will definitely be illegal within a decade. Violence and guns are tools, meant for specific applications in certain circumstances. We have to end this psycho babble about "zero tolerance" for violence, and teach people that there is a time and a place for measured amounts of it. We have to teach people that they have the right -no- obligation to defend themselves, that its okay for two boys to settle their differences. We can't tackle every little thing thats wrong, but we can tackle them one at a time. We've got to find out why Klebold and Cho go berzerk and find out how to identify these boys before they get there.

[sg1987]

That teacher develops these new Americans in a micro universe of what they would like a new America to be. A place where defending yourself gets you suspended from being a part of society.

My son stays in trouble with the administration at his school because I insist that he fight back when bullied.

We are spinning our wheels if we think that this problem is about gun control. Its about minds.

Dead on target!

[mumbleypeg]

Add this to the list of things I don't understand.

http://media.www.dailytarheel.com/media/storage/paper885/news/2007/04/18/News/Police.Characterize.Virginia.Tech.Shooter.As.Menta lly.Unstable-2849670.shtml
Police characterize Virginia Tech shooter as mentally unstable
By: From Staff Reports
Posted: 4/18/07
BLACKSBURG, Va. - According to Virginia Tech campus police, the student responsible for at least one of the two shootings Monday at the university was mentally unstable.

Campus police twice received complaints from women regarding Cho Seung-Hui. The first incident occurred Nov 27, 2005, campus police Chief Wendell Flinchum said.

He added that the female complainants characterized Cho's contact with them as 'annoying.'

A second incident occurred in December when a female student contacted police after Cho repeatedly contacted her. After that complaint officers followed up the next morning with an in-person interview, Flinchum said.

Officers asked Cho to speak to a mental health counselor and he agreed. Cho was committed at a facility in Radford, Va., on Dec. 13.

"The attacks since those contacts in November and December of 2005 I am not aware of any additional incidents or reports made to our department," Flinchum said.

Virginia state police superintendent Col. W. Steven Flaherty said federal, state and local law enforcement still are trying to establish connections between Cho and the victims, but are not able to confirm any at this point. © Copyright 2007 Daily Tar Heel

[SOCOM8721]

[QUOTE=sg1987]My son stays in trouble with the administration at his school because I insist that he fight back when bullied.



I stay in trouble with the school administration for backing up my daughter and two sons who refuse to be bullied at school.

Last month they suggested I consider home schooling. I suggested they bring the other kid's parents in to meet with me, the school and the kids.

The other parents and kid were a no show at the meeting.

Principal's reply to that, " I get your point."

[Ret10Echo]

Add this to the list of things I don't understand.

http://media.www.dailytarheel.com/media/storage/paper885/news/2007/04/18/News/Police.Characterize.Virginia.Tech.Shooter.As.Menta lly.Unstable-2849670.shtml
Police characterize Virginia Tech shooter as mentally unstable
By: From Staff Reports
Posted: 4/18/07
BLACKSBURG, Va. - According to Virginia Tech campus police, the student responsible for at least one of the two shootings Monday at the university was mentally unstable.

Campus police twice received complaints from women regarding Cho Seung-Hui. The first incident occurred Nov 27, 2005, campus police Chief Wendell Flinchum said.

He added that the female complainants characterized Cho's contact with them as 'annoying.'

A second incident occurred in December when a female student contacted police after Cho repeatedly contacted her. After that complaint officers followed up the next morning with an in-person interview, Flinchum said.

Officers asked Cho to speak to a mental health counselor and he agreed. Cho was committed at a facility in Radford, Va., on Dec. 13.

"The attacks since those contacts in November and December of 2005 I am not aware of any additional incidents or reports made to our department," Flinchum said.

Virginia state police superintendent Col. W. Steven Flaherty said federal, state and local law enforcement still are trying to establish connections between Cho and the victims, but are not able to confirm any at this point. © Copyright 2007 Daily Tar Heel

Once again the people demand protection, but in the very same breath tie the hands of those who would be their protectors (COLawman??). Things become reactionary. How to crack that nut I can't say. There is much to be said about arrests/confinement based on potential vs conduct. We live in a society that requires the person to perform the deed prior to action. Such is the case with career criminals, pedophiles and other sex-crime types.
Best solution is to be prepared. Prepare your children, prepare your wife, prepare yourself. Understanding your operational environment is key. 15 years ago Cho's actions would have been referred to as 'infatuation', now it is 'stalking'. Then again the chances of someone acting upon those thoughts would have been much lower 15 years ago.

[sg1987]

Last month they suggested I consider home schooling.


I am OFTEN wrong (just ask my wife) but I wonder if the following scenario is accurate:

1. In the distant past of our country men were once the primary providers for the family.
Women stayed home to educate / raise the kids.

2. Over the course of time Moms went to work to help Dad meet the needs of the family.

3. The kids went off to government daycare-strike that- schools.

4. A system has evolved here where by parents must compete with liberal educators whose world view is strikingly different than most of the parents.

[Defender968]

First and foremost my heart and thoughts go out to all the students, faculty, and especially the family and friends of the slain, may they rest in peace.

My heart and thoughts also go out to all the LEO's involved in this, especially the VT police department as they are now facing an onslaught of criticism, some of which is warranted but most of which is absolutely not IMHO.

I'd like to weigh in here as an LEO, I had a pretty steaming rant going for Pandora specifically for this statement,

Bash on the V. Tech campus police and Administration. That makes some sense, although offering up you expertise in an advisory manner would be far more productive than posting arm-chair opinions.

But I had a troop who needed some help so my rant had to go on the back burner and by the time I got back to it those smarter and more experienced than I have taken care of it eloquently.

With that being said, right now allot of folks are second guessing all the LEO's involved with this whole tragedy, and while I understand it is natural to question, I am glad to see you all for the most part withholding judgment.

A couple of observations I found about this case with the preliminary info I have, first the VT PD only has 38 sworn officers, which means if they're working 12 hr shifts they maybe had 20 folks on duty when this went down. That severely limits their response abilities. Now we also don't know what the original call was, and the "fog of war" certainly could and I'm pretty sure did apply here. It is entirely possible that they thought it was a murder suicide one male one female dead in a dorm room, and there are a hundred other possibilities of what that call could have come in as, and since from what I've read no one saw the first 2 victims get murdered, the call probably came in that there were either loud bangs in a dorm, or maybe someone found the bodies and called in 2 GSW victims down in the dorm. Now all the LEO's on duty are going to collapse on that building, and since there was no active shooting going on they're probably going to set up a perimeter on the building, which from what I saw is what they did. Then they've got to search/clear the building. The way it's done by most in LE takes allot of time when you don't have victims or an active shooting going on, which is why the active shooter method was developed, but when you know you've had a shooting, but no shooting is occurring currently it's even more critical that the search is done methodically to ensure the Shooter isn't hiding or blending in with other students preparing to strike again, which is why I think it might appear that things were going slowly.

I would venture to guess at that point no reinforcements had been called i.e. state police at the time of the initial shooting, and I'd venture to bet the VT PD doesn't have an organic SWAT team and since they no longer had an active shooting using an active shooter method wouldn't be practical anyway at the point of the first shooting if in fact they even had that training. I know that I am a full time LEO in a PD of 400 with jurisdiction including several colleges don't have that training, so I would find it very plausible that this tiny PD of 38 didn't have it either.

I do believe that the Admin should have called for the canceling of classes once they had a double murder/shooting and no definitive suspect, but we don't know exactly what they knew or when they knew it. Could it have happened quicker maybe but we've got all the info and have the luxury of playing Monday morning QB, they did not it would depend on how long it took to get to the initial victims and then that to filter back to the Chief, once it did then I would guess he would make the recommendation of where to go from there to the VT president, And even if they knew immediately I wonder if they have a way to effectively shut down the campus. It's not like a base that's fenced in and where we can close the gates and make an announcement on the giant voice, send an email, and run through recall rosters to get the word out, it's a college campus of 25000 students on 2600 acres, it's as unsecured as anything I can think of, I know for sure neither 20 nor 38 LEO’s could have done it.

Now what I do believe is the call for help to the State had to have happened fairly quickly, I know it takes our SWAT team an hour to get assembled and moving in my city, I can't imagine how long it would take a state team to assembled and get to a location so the VT PD chief must have made that call fairly quickly. As already stated by Smokin Joe that once the second series of shootings started it took only 10 minutes to get to the shooter although the cowardly POS may he burn in hell had already taken his own life by the time the LEO's got there from what I've read. So I'd assert that the response was not what the Leftist news commies are portraying to someone who knows a little more about LE and their response to this type of thing, but of course that doesn’t sell newspapers or get viewers or make people feel better like finding a scapegoat does.

I also wanted to throw this out as well with regard to the medical response once the second set of shootings started, they the LEO's didn't know if they had more than one shooter, so they had to clear that building as well, in our department the EMT's won't come in until it's secure, so carrying the wounded out would be the fastest way to get them to the EMT’s, now how that happened I don't exactly know, but I would venture to guess once a floor was initially secured the LEO's who weren't search for the other possible gunman or gunmen started carrying the wounded to the EMT's.

Anyway I’ll go back to lurking. My hearts and thoughts go out to all involved, and I hope they don’t come looking for my firearms after this tragedy. Because as many other have said if one or two law abiding citizens had been armed this might have ended before the murderer got to 32.

[JGarcia]

1. In the distant past of our country men were once the primary providers for the family. Women stayed home to educate / raise the kids.

2. Over the course of time Moms went to work to help Dad meet the needs of the family.

Buddy, we can't lament the past.

We've got to be ahead of the game. Nothing we can say is going to put women out of the work force and back home raising kids. We've got to recognize that Men or Parents rather have been marginalized, and work within those realities. People want more square footage, the want as many nicer things as they can almost afford. Consequently Americans have fewer kids, and spend less time with the ones they do have.

If there is going to be a future of firearms ownership, of self reliance, of independence, of Americans as we know what it means to be one...... WE! Have to pass it along to kids other than our own. WE are disappearing faster than we can reproduce ourselves. The way you change the future is to change the kids.

WE can't be selfish, and think "I've got my guns, and I'll pass them down to my kid with my values, whatever the laws are he will hold on to them." That will guarantee that our children's future is one where they are fugitives living outside the law in fear of persecution.

WE, have to fix society one neighborhood at a time. The saying that no man is an island to himself is true more so today than in years past. We will all bear the consequences of this spectacular event and the next spectacular event as people decide to spend their liberty for security. I am saying spectacular not in a good way, I mean spectacular in the sense that these shootings are huge media events, the stories get told in every news medium there is and in just about every country on the planet.

This is not about guns, this is not about what the school admins did, what the police did, or who is to blame (though I am sure that by Friday somehow this will all be the POTUS's fault).

WE do not have time to wait! Be active in your community; affect as many kids as possible with your beliefs and values - the illegals' kids as well as your own - or America will cease to exist as we know it.

Government isn't to be depended on to secure our liberties, it can't prevent drugs or illegals from coming cross the border, why place your money on them for your liberty?

Change has to come from the people. It's the American thing to do.

[CPTAUSRET]

Not to detract from the topic at hand, but we wre going to be there tomorrow. Nancy has been scheduled to give a talk (at VT) for some time, and she is going to do so.


We are no longer going to VT!

Nancy's talk was cancelled.

[shadowwalker]

I fear, that like many people have said, that this is a social issue. I also believe it will become a gun issue, and that the fallout has only begun. I am also a life time member of the NRA. My worst fear though is that people in general do believe they have the right to be protected rather that protect themselves and that because of this incident or future incidents the people will make the mistake of asking for the government/military to protect them. History has shown that once this path is taken there is no return.

[Ladyhawke]

News just out that the gunman sent a package to NBC with photos, video and a letter several pages long. The letter is reported to be rambling and not making much sense. He is reported to have mailed it between the first shootings and the second one. More and more; this is looking like a premeditated act carried out by a very mentally unstable person. My prayers to the families of those lost, speedy recovery to those injured. I hope that if this happens in the future-God Forbid, but it might; that people will learn something from this incident. If they learn nothing else, I hope it is that many can usually overpower one, wolves hunt in packs for a reason as do lions and other animals. FIGHT and you may live! Do nothing and sadly life will usually be forfeit.

[futureSoldier]

Being an NRA member, I, like most of you, am quite upset about what political rape of this tragic event. However, I am wondering about this new bit regarding Cho being declared "mentally ill" by a court. While I am all for gun rights, on the face of things it does seem pretty illogical that a person could buy a gun within 2 years of being declared mentally ill and staying in a psychiatric facility. I really haven't put much thought into it other than what it seems at face value. I understand that we cannot and should not micromanage citizens for the sake of safety but it does seem a like having a court ordered psychiatric stay is something that would (or should) show up on a background check-especially within a year or two. Just wondering what other folks' thoughts are.

Joe

[Slantwire]

Does anybody know if any part of VT's Corps of Cadets was armed? Im assuming not, due to the campus ban on guns.

You assume correctly. The VTCC arsenal consists of 1903 Springfield bolt-actions, most of them lacking firing pins. The ROTC departments do have some real weapons (Army and Marines only, I'm pretty sure), only brought out for BRM classes.

Most cadets are not trained to use weapons anyway. It's an academy situation, not a tactical school. The focus is developing military character traits rather than military skills. The teaching of skills is left to the actual services. At least, that was the case when I graduated a few years ago.

All that said, they should still have had the wherewithal to respond in a similar manner to Prof Librescu. I only know of one cadet fatality, but I hope he at least died trying to do something.

[Phazed]

They said that one of the faculty, who was a Holocaust survivor, held the door shut from the guy while the rest of the people in the room jumped out the window (it was the second story). He got killed though, but he saved those people's lives.

On a side note, you guys won't believe this, but up here at the university Rochester Institute of Technology, some kid at the R.I.T. Inn and Conference Center got caught with a couple of "high-powered rifles" (I don't know which they were, but probably assault weapons of some type) in his room that are illegal in New York state, along with a bunch of ammunition in his car (!?!).

He got caught because he literally assembled the weapons in his room and someone heard it.

They say he has a lot of friends and is well-liked, so IMO if the media is reporting it right, he was either planning something very bad or he was incredibly stupid (real intelligent to assemble two illegal weapons in your room the day after a massive college shooting, and have ammo in your car).

They didn't tell a whole lot, but who knows, maybe he was planning a follow-up? If so, whoever overheard him might've saved a lot of people's lives.

He's in jail right now.



I also go to RIT and a girl I work with knew someone who knew this kid and apparently he was making a present for his dad. I realize there are degrees of separation between the information I received and myself but for what its worth...

We are in agreement that is was a stupid thing to do.

[APLP]

The following article was sent to me via the internet. I apologize that I have no reference as to who wrote the information copied below, but found the content of interest:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It is worthwhile to note that Virginia Tech is -- because of deliberate
policies set by its administration -- a victim disarmament zone, where even
those with a state-issued concealed carry permit are denied their right of
self-defense.

In fact, pro-gun forces just last year tried to get the Virginia legislature
to address the problem. The bill to allow permit holders to carry on
state-supported college campuses died, due in no small part to rabid
opposition from Virginia Tech itself.

VT spokesman Larry Hincker put it this way after it became obvious that the
bill would not pass: "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of
the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students,
faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Gun bans disarm victims, not criminals.

That is the simple lesson that anti-gun groups refuse to acknowledge as they
race to dance in the blood of the Virginia Tech tragedy. Prior to April 16,
2007, Virginia Tech was an anti-gun "success story." Tech
fought, and won, a battle against a statewide measure that would have
guaranteed the right of students to defend themselves while on campus. In
Virginia, students with a concealed carry license are allowed to carry on
college campuses unless the college prohibits it. Virginia Tech prohibits
it, and fought to make sure they could continue to prohibit it.

Within hours of news of the shootings first breaking, the "usual suspects"
had geared up their P.R. machines to begin their attempts to exploit
tragedy. Several organizations made sure to send their
releases in time for West Coast mid-day news, practically before the campus
was even secure. While they lament "the culture of violence," they are
silent about "feeling safe" resulting in a pile of bodies.

Representative of this exploitation is Toby Hoover and her organization and
their release entitled "It's about the guns." In the usual fashion, the
release is full of blatant appeal to emotion. Conspicuously absent from
this release is any facts. That is because in their race to try and shape
the initial news coverage, these groups cannot be bothered with any facts.
It's too important to get in front of the cameras before the bodies cool. In
fact, groups like Freedom States Alliance criticize groups like the NRA for
not rushing to join
them in debate atop the pile of bodies.

While gun groups typically take the approach of respecting the families and
the victims by allowing them to grieve privately, it is increasingly obvious
that "abandoning the field" in the days following a tragedy serves only to
clear the airwaves for the distortions and misinformation from the anti-gun
groups. At present, all that appears to be known conclusively is:
1.) The victims were purposefully and aggressively disarmed by the school
administration,
2.) The police served only to document the crime scene and count the bodies,
and
3.) If just one victim had been armed they would have at least had an option
before they were executed.

Unlike our foes, we will await the reporting of further facts prior to
calling for or opposing any further legislation.

The unfortunate irony continues when one recalls that not long ago, two
students at nearby Appalachian School of Law managed to stop a gunman at
that institution. Happily, they were able to dash off-campus to retrieve
their guns from their vehicles.

On the inside of one of the arms of this South Korean was inscribed "Ismail
Ax" in ghoulish red ink. He inscribed his mark of justice just prior to his
onslaught on the Virginia Tech campus, checked his arsenal, loaded his guns,
then headed out to execute his justice.

Does "Ismail Ax" Suggest Korean Student Was A Secret Muslim Terrorist? How
often are you going to see that the Korean at Virginia Tech had "Ismail Ax"
written on his arm? Not too often, I suspect.

Do you know what 'Ismail Ax" means? Let's examine what we do know.

Muslims world-wide use the name "Ismail" extensively. Each country may have
some variation, but it always refers back to Abraham and his son, Ishmael.

Abraham is a special figure in Old Testament history. There is much written
in the Old Testament, but the germane issue is that he had two sons, one
legitimate, Isaac, and one illegitimate, Ishmael.

So the first portion of the word "Ismail" can be related to Ishmael, son of
Abraham.

AX refers to the Muslim belief that Abraham was to kill Ishmael as an act of
obedience and faith using an AXE. On the contrary, in the Old Testament it
is Isaac who was to be sacrificed on an altar in the wilderness, with a
KNIFE. Isaac was spared when God instead provided a ram for the sacrifice.

There is also a Muslim belief that Abraham attacked idols around him with an
AXE. This could relate to the axe potentially used to kill Ishmael.

Thus, this phrase, "Ismail Ax", seems undeniably related to carrying out an
act of judgment in the Muslim context. The two words together suggest both
sacrifice and judgment, which seems to go along with the strange note he
left behind.

Finding his connection to Islam, and radical Islam will be the next mystery.

There was a Muslim Shah Ismail I - founder of Safavid Dynasty of Iran -
himself a poet:

I know the Truth as my supreme guide, I would sacrifice myself in his way, I
was born yesterday, I will die today, Come, whoever would die, here is the
arena.

Ismail is also a character from Islam - the Muslim version of Abraham
(Ibrahim in the Islam version). In Islamic lore Ismail was ready to be a
willing sacrifice to the will of Allah.

Then there is Isamail Haniya, the Muslim Hamas senior leader - now Prime
Minister of the Palestinian Authority.

n. - terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act -- (the calculated use of
violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals
that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done
through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)

No matter how much the authorities try and divert attention from the reality
of it all, by definition, this was a terrorist attack. Ismail's axe has
swung - and it will swing again, and again, and again. Things are not as we
are told.

After all, this was just another isolated incident, right?. Yeah, right.
Labels: cover-up, Defeatocrats, Islam, Ismail, Killer Muslims, Liberals,
Mass murderer, Virginia Tech. "

-----------------------------------------------------------

[booker]

The Ishmail character assessment may not be entirely related to Islam. Google the name and it is related to many different things, including a posting on a message board on a conspiracy theory site (pertains to Ishmail Ax). Cho was obviously a deranged nut job, so I doubt that he was trying to make a religious statement. His video clips alone paint the picture of someone who has had a long standing mental issue (plus he called the Columbine duo martyrs), notwithstanding the state mandated stay in the mental hospital.

[x-factor]

Being that he was an English major, there's a good chance "Ismail" is referring to the main character from Moby Dick.

[Ambush Master]

http://www.hillsdale.edu/imprimis/2004/09/

[OIFDan]

I have never in my entire life been so disgusted in the way a news organization has twisted and pushed the facts. Anything can be taken out of context when pushed far enough. MSNBC and NBC news have shown complete lack of tact and have completely lost my already extremely limited trust as news agencies. I have found it very hard to listen to such bullshit coming out of the mouths of "journalistic professionals". The interview between Chris Matthews and the shooters suitemate is incredibly pushy and I can just hear Chris Matthews twisting the words and taking the meaning out that he wants to push. Its really incredible to see or to watch an interviewer hear only what they want to hear, then twist it put it out as fact and repeat it over and over. I wont be watching Hardball anytime in the future. I am totally disgusted.
My one rant.
Dan Out...

[VAV1500]

I just watched the video Cho Seung-Hui sent to NBC news, supposedly during the interim period between the two shootings. This guy had a serious screw loose. I'm a big believer in the Sheepdog/Sheep/Wolf model, but I feel as if you'd have to classify this guy as something else...a wolf preys on the sheep for sustenance, Cho wanted only to visit his suffering on the world, like a disease...

It feels like an afterthought, espescially after so many people died for no good reason at all, but I second TR's sentiment and hope it's hot enough in Hell for Cho Seung-Hui.

[Team Sergeant]

Being that he was an English major, there's a good chance "Ismail" is referring to the main character from Moby Dick.

You may want to do a little more research. (isn't that your job?)

The "ax" after the Ismail; "Ismail Ax" might refer to an islamic story in the quran.

TS

Side note, playing the devil's advocate on Professionalsoldiers.com is not a good idea if you're not a Special Forces soldier.

[booker]

I think he completely lost the loose screw! It seems that, after seeing the videos, he thought of himself as something akin to a god character (refering to himself as being like Christ, whatever that was supposed to mean). I completely agree, this guy wasn't a wolf, he was more of a fanged duckbill platypus, rare and hard to recognize until it's too late.

[swatsurgeon]

Looking at the pics of his ammo.....is that Hornady TAP?
I am going to try and excise one of the bullets tomorrow from one of the victims and with my interest in wound ballistics, I am hoping someone can look at the pic of the ammo and come up with a definite ammo type. I can not yet get this info from our LE agencies.

ss

Please do not ask for details....I am caring for the most injured of the 27 that are still alive.

[JGarcia]

Cho, Klebold, Kinkle, etc. The name changes, but the problem is still here. It's a matter of course that this will happen again. Whatever Mr. Cho said is irrelevant now.

Ask yourself what you can do to lessen the chances of some other kid going south the way these guys have.

[Gypsy]

God bless you, Swatsurgeon. These injured victims are in my prayers...

[swatsurgeon]

He bought the Glock 19 at the store I go to...completely legit buy, all paperwork correctly done and cleared by ATF/State Police. The owner is a friend and feels terrible about it. No nervous attitude while purchasing....they actually will not sell if the person doesn't come across as 'normal, calm, rational, etc'
The Walther P22 was from a pawn shop somewhere.

ss

[swatsurgeon]

BTW,
Anyone that believes that their own safety can be insured by LE, etc in a rural community needs to take their head out of the sand. Our hospital has a 'no carry' policy and our armed police force stopped asking me if I was carrying, they know I always carry, and actually count on it to protect the people in our trauma room. We take care of alot of people that draw a bad crowd and have on occasion been threatened and I know that my personal defense rests in my head and hands....the police can't be everywhere at once.
Would the disaster have ended sooner if an armed and trained student had intervened?

ss

[booker]

....I am caring for the most injured of the 27 that are still alive.


I hoped that you were, sir! When I heard where the victims were headed, I knew they would be in the best hands possible.

[x-factor]

You may want to do a little more research. (isn't that your job?)

The "ax" after the Ismail; "Ismail Ax" might refer to an islamic story in the quran.

TS

Side note, playing the devil's advocate on Professionalsoldiers.com is not a good idea if you're not a Special Forces soldier.

I wasn't playing devil's advocate. All I said was there was a good chance (raising alternative theories is also my job.) and I think there is. Moby Dick is perfect for sociopaths with its themes of obsession and self-destruction and the guy's dense prose suggests he might be trying (consciously or unconsciously) to emulate Melville.

Take it or leave it, but it was a theory offered in good faith.

There's an equally good or better chance thats its an Islamic reference (or possibly a dual reference to both?), but that possibility had already been raised so I didn't see a need to repeat it.

[BrianH]

The photographs the shooter sent to NBC have been released. They are extremely sad. He sent the package, which included yet-to-be-released video, 1 1/2 hours before the first shooting. Terrible.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

[The Reaper]

Please do not ask for details....I am caring for the most injured of the 27 that are still alive.

May God's hand be on yours, and may he watch over your patients with you.

Best of luck, Doc.

TR

[CoLawman]

Praying for you Doc and your so very important patients!

[CPTAUSRET]

BTW,
Anyone that believes that their own safety can be insured by LE, etc in a rural community needs to take their head out of the sand. Our hospital has a 'no carry' policy and our armed police force stopped asking me if I was carrying, they know I always carry, and actually count on it to protect the people in our trauma room. We take care of alot of people that draw a bad crowd and have on occasion been threatened and I know that my personal defense rests in my head and hands....the police can't be everywhere at once.
Would the disaster have ended sooner if an armed and trained student had intervened?

ss


God Bless you S:

Terry

[x-factor]

Good luck and God bless, Doc.

[Ambush Master]

Here's a very interesting article concerning "Our Right to Protection"!!!

It does not exist!!!

All that Law Enforcement is there to do is catch the bad guys after the fact!!

http://jimdark.com/files/2005_JulAug_DarkEditorial.pdf

Good read!

Later
Martin

From the lack of comment on this article, I'm posting it in it's entireity.

What is it about the Constitutional RIGHT that we have to PROTECT ourselves that is not understood!!!

The Government is NOT THERE TO PROTECT YOU!!!
Vol. 37, No.4 TSRA Sportsman www.tsra.com SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! page 3
by James Dark
Unexpected Help from the Supreme Court
Executive Director's Message

The recent Supreme Court decisions that were announced on June 27th provided much fodder for national news sources, and some of these decision effected Texas directly. For example, the controversial decision about eminent domain seizures prompted Governor Rick Perry to uncharacteristically broaden the agenda of the ongoing Special Session of the Legislature so that Texas lawmakers could attempt to dull the effect of this decision.

However, there is one case that may have eluded the radars of most gunowners, the Colorado case of Castle Rock v. Gonzales. While the case was not directly about gun laws, it created a chilling effect on the concept of American citizens being defended from harm by criminals. In 1999, Jessica Gonzales obtained a restraining order against her estranged husband Simon. Shortly thereafter, Simon abducted their three daughters. After repeated pleas for assistance, police visited the home and decided that Simon was nonviolent, and the questions surrounding his access to his daughters by court order needed to be decided by the courts, not the police.

The next morning, Simon Gonzales appeared in front of the Castle Rock Police Department and began firing a gun indiscriminately into the building. Not surprisingly, he was immediately killed by return fire. In his truck, his three daughters were found shot to death.

Jessica Gonzales sued the Town of Castle Rock, claiming that her and her daughters had been denied due process under the 14th Amendment. In a 7-2 decision, the Supreme Court ruled citizens of the United States do not have a constitutional right to police protection, even when a restraining order has been issued. The language of one of the cited court cases is telling indeed. In the 1982 case of Bowers v. DeVito, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeal stated that “there is no Constitutional Right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen.”

Justices on both sides of the opinion, even those dissenting, were united in the belief that police protection is not a constitutionally protected entitlement. Justice Scalia, in the court's opinion, stated, "our cases recognize that a benefit is not a protected entitlement if government officials may grant or deny it at their discretion." This clearly recognizes that law enforcement by its very nature is a profession that relies on discretion by enforcing officers. In a nutshell, the Supreme Court has effectively said that self-defense is the job of each and every citizen.

I have had conversations with many law enforcement officers on the subject of protecting citizens. I have heard a virtually universal opinion that their main focus is to bring perpetrators to justice, to investigate, etc. Most police officers will freely admit that they often arrive on the scene after the damage has been done. Most criminal offenses occur quickly, and are over even before 911 is called.

The fact that the highest court in the land has ruled that we should not rely on the police for protection makes a number of things very important. We should redouble our efforts to ensure a reasonable and universal “shall issue” Concealed Handgun Licensing system throughout the United States. No citizen should be deprived of this right.

We should redouble our efforts to encourage everyone to prepare to defend themselves. Laws or policies impeding gun ownership are no longer acceptable, if they ever were. Groups that oppose gun ownership, citing the protection offered by law enforcement, should be referred to this decision.

But very importantly, we should realize that the Supreme Court has, at least indirectly, done us a huge favor. Freedom-loving, gun-owning Americans will seldom see a decision by this court that so effectively takes the legs out from underneath our opposition. The argument that we don’t need to protect ourselves, that the police will be there for us, has been jettisoned unceremoniously out the window. And I’m OK with that, because I never bought it anyway. As the ramifications of Castle Rock v. Gonzales gradually sink in, I expect we will see a renewed interest in firearms ownership. Much like Americans felt threatened, and headed to gun stores in record numbers in the days following the 9-11 attacks, I expect we will see a renewed interest in self-defense. We have long argued that every American has an inherent right to self defense as one of our basic human rights. The Supremes have, with this opinion, have made it abundantly clear that every American is in the driver's seat regarding their own safety.

The Police Chief of Castle Rock opined that the Gonzales case “points out the much larger problem in this country…with restraining orders. They do not protect society from the Simon Gonzales’ of the world.” In this the chief is absolutely right. The Supreme Court has made it clear that it is a fool’s errand to rely on the police as your sole source of protection. Jessica Gonzales’ experience shows us that relying on court restraining orders is equally futile. In fact, in most cases, they are likely not worth the paper they are written on. I will hold with the opinion that two other pieces of paper will be far more valuable in defending me and my loved ones. Those are my concealed handgun license, and the target from my latest trip to the range.

AM - I reformatted for readability. Thanks for posting it. Most citizens are clueless about these decisions and their implications. Peregrino

[blue02hd]

Swatsurgean,

Thank you so much for posting at a time when you have your hands full. Any information you share with us is greatly appreciated as we all keep those who have been injured in our thoughts and prayers.

[Pete]

Once again we are treated to 24/7 coverage of the shooter. Every 1/2 hour his pictures are shown on the News Shows, front page in the local paper and his is "The Subject" around all the water coolers.

The press hates to dig into two questions that circle all these mass killings. Medications? What drugs were the shooters on? Were they taking them?

But the big one - What roll does the 24/7 news coverage play in the mind of the shooters?

The slim ball mailed the package knowing the media would splash it all over the world. How much did the knowledge that the media would turn him into front page news play in his actions?

Would mass killings be cut back if the press refused to focus on the killer and only published big stories on the killed? The only section that talked about him was the obits?

Makes you wonder.

Pete

[JGarcia]

Best of luck SS,
I'd be happy to know you were my doc if I was one of the victims. Prayers out.

[The Reaper]

Once again we are treated to 24/7 coverage of the shooter. Every 1/2 hour his pictures are shown on the News Shows, front page in the local paper and his is "The Subject" around all the water coolers.

The press hates to dig into two questions that circle all these mass killings. Medications? What drugs were the shooters on? Were they taking them?

But the big one - What roll does the 24/7 news coverage play in the mind of the shooters?

The slim ball mailed the package knowing the media would splash it all over the world. How much did the knowledge that the media would turn him into front page news play in his actions?

Would mass killings be cut back if the press refused to focus on the killer and only published big stories on the killed? The only section that talked about him was the obits?

Makes you wonder.

Pete

I agree.

I will not use his name, or watch shows glorifying him for the next nuts out there to watch and think that this is a great way to check out.

I predict a lot of copycats in the near future, as the Columbine punks started.

F*** him, may his name never be mentioned again, and may someone piss on his grave every day for the next hundred years.

TR

[Surgicalcric]

...F*** him, may his name never be mentioned again, and may someone piss on his grave every day for the next hundred years.

TR

I think that just about sums it up. Very well put Sir.

Crip

[JPH]

I CAN NOT BELIEVE THIS!!!:boohoo :confused: :mad:

The following are e-mails I have received in the past few days from my university, the “sheeplenes”, hypocrisy, and BS is beyond me… I will follow with my personal comments and observations of campus life…


On behalf of Missouri State University, I want to express our sorrow to Virginia Tech University for the loss of lives and the trauma caused by yesterday’s mass murder at that institution. A tragedy on one campus in America affects all of us, and our thoughts are with our colleagues at Virginia Tech. Among the many personal and collective reactions to yesterday’s shooting rampage at Virginia Tech University is the understandable concern about the plans and procedures that Missouri State University has in place to respond to this and other kinds of emergencies that could occur on campus. Although the University takes a number of steps to prevent violence and promote safety (such as prohibiting weapons on campus and having a regular system of uniformed officer patrols), it is also prudent to recognize that it is simply not possible to prevent, in every instance, the rare crisis that could be precipitated by an individual who, with premeditation and suicidal determination, is bent on committing a massacre. Our obligation to plan for emergencies is one that we take seriously. In fact, today, we also participated in a conference call with the Governor’s office and other public university officials to review the plans and procedures that in place at our institutions and to learn about the Governor’s plan to develop a state-wide Campus Security Task Force.
For your benefit and understanding, I did want to describe to you some of the policies in place at Missouri State University. First, for a general description of our Emergency Response Plan please refer to the following link: http://www.missouristate.edu/safetran/12806.htm. This link contains a great deal of information that describes contingencies in place to handle a range of emergencies and disasters of both natural and man-made origins. Second, it is important to recognize that, unlike many campuses, we do not have our own uniformed police force. Instead, the Springfield Police Department (SPD) and Missouri State University have a contractual relationship that provides for a strong SPD presence on the Missouri State campus. SPD has a substation located on campus with ten SPD officers housed with the Missouri State University Safety and Transportation staff. Joint activities between SPD and the University include regular campus patrols, an ongoing presence in the residence halls, safety and training initiatives, and other activities to heighten security awareness on the Missouri State campus. Missouri State and SPD have had this cooperative arrangement in place since 1992. This arrangement has proven to be a good one for the University, and we are pleased with the professionalism and service that the Springfield Police Department has provided us. Any official law enforcement response to a crime or emergency on our campus would be directed by the Springfield Police Department, with which the University’s various offices and officials (e.g., Residence Life, Safety and Transportation, Taylor Health) would cooperate and coordinate. Third, the campus periodically tests and evaluates its emergency response plans and methods, the most recent being last year when we field-tested our responses to a hostage-taking crisis.
Finally, matters of safety and security are everyone’s responsibility at some level – obeying the University’s restriction on having weapons on campus, being vigilant for breaches of security, locking doors to buildings and offices when we leave them for the day, encouraging individuals who may be undergoing stressful periods or experiencing obvious signs of emotional disturbance to seek professional intervention – are just some of the practices that each of us can render in the interests of all us. Please let me know of additional suggestion you might have to improve our capacity for responding to emergency situations on campus as we strive to make our campus as safe and secure as possible.
Michael T. Nietzel
President


As a follow-up to his earlier message, President Nietzel asked me to emphasize the campus policy regarding the presence of firearms and other weapons. Missouri State University strictly prohibits any firearms, whether concealed or in plain view, from campus, unless specifically approved by the Director of Safety and Transportation. Included in this prohibition is ammunition, as well as weapons of any kind, including explosive weapons. This policy applies to all areas of campus, including parking lots and vehicles.
Thank you for your assistance in abiding by this policy. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact my office or the Director of Safety and Transportation, Gary Snavely.
Ken McClure
Associate Vice President for Administrative and Information Services


I want to inform all members of the University community that at 7:48am this morning, the Office of the President received an email that contained threats against various categories of individuals. The email had been sent first to an instructor of a Spanish class and to the Head of the Modern and Classical Languages Department. The individual believed to be responsible for sending the threatening email was detained in Craig Hall by Springfield Police and University security officers. He has been removed from the building and is being questioned. Craig Hall was locked down briefly so officers could search the building. They determined that Craig Hall is safe to be reopened and classes are being conducted as scheduled. We believe this threat has been responded to quickly and effectively and that it no longer poses a risk to the campus.
I and members of my staff will be available to the media at 10am to answer questions about the incident based on what we know at this time. In the meantime, it is apparent that campuses across the nation – including Missouri State - are now experiencing what might be some ripples from the tragedy at Virginia Tech earlier this week. I encourage all of us to be vigilant to risks and signs of danger that may be encountered while at the same time we maintain a reasonable approach to daily life and the activities of our University.
Michael T. Nietzel
President


I am simply not mature enough at this point to handle this, I want to scream at the top on my lunges and throw a fit like a 7 year old boy as my mind can’t comprehend how the world can work like this!!!

To start with the last e-mail received, this is the only communication I have received from anyone (fellow student or authorities) about this mornings events. That is the main classroom building for MY CLASSES TODAY. Now the kicker is that our university in their information gathering from students has all our phone numbers, e-mail addresses and home addresses. They have a computer calling system ON campus (in other words it isn’t out sourced to a local company, OF WHICH we have several in town) they use this calling system to advertise events and call for money all the time, it wouldn’t take anything to record a message and tell the computer to notify students!!!!

In high school they used dogs to find explosives and drugs; they walked through the parking lot twice a month. I was even called out for a single 308 round the dog found in my SUV, it was hunting season and I was a active out going student the vice principle and security guard knew, so I was sent back to class, no problem… Will this happen at MSU?

Now if you would have ask me Sunday if I was willing to face the consequences of carrying where I am not allowed I would have said yes, because the only way anyone was going to know was if I produced my weapon(s) in an emergency… now I fear that dogs my be used to invade my privacy and after inspecting my vehicle a third party looking in to my life (gun owning, soon to be military, “wantabe” Special Forces, young “kid”, loner in my political views (i.e. not a lost dem), Boy Scout… the list goes on)…

How can the un/under-educated take away the rights and install fear in the lives of the educated so easily?

Rant Over (or should I say confused screaming fit… lol)
JPH

[JPH]

To add as an after thought and additional subject, we are only a few weeks away from finales, and my generation (the kids who were in high school during the Columbine shootings, in other words the ones who have grown up with this as the norm) will be graduating this year…

Thousands of scared, about to face the real world, young students faced with the most stressful exams of their lives and I am suppose to go to class and feel safe that the un-armed public safety department will protect me from some nut copycat??????

JPH

edit for spelling

[Team Sergeant]

This is only a few miles from where I live..... Where do all these crazies come from? TS


Estrella classes resume after 1-day evacuation
Elias C. Arnold
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 19, 2007 12:00 AM

AVONDALE - Avondale police detectives are investigating who may have sent a shooting-threat letter that prompted the one-day shutdown of Estrella Mountain Community College.

Classes resumed Wednesday, a day after college officials evacuated the campus in response to a threatening three-page letter sent to security officials through intercampus mail.

The Avondale college was just one campus in nine U.S. states that reported lockdowns or evacuations prompted by threats or suspicious activities Tuesday. The closures came a day after 33 people died in a mass shooting at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg. advertisement

Estrella Mountain officials said they received the letter about 11:30 a.m., and the campus was evacuated within 15 minutes. Officials estimated up to 2,000 people were on campus at the time.

Avondale police searched the school, but found no evidence that a gunman had been on the campus northwest of Dysart and Thomas roads.

Two officers have been assigned to the campus to allay students' and staff members' fears, said Avondale police spokeswoman Amy Bolton.

"It's a little scary," 19-year-old Erica Hernandez said of returning to campus. "You're just now more aware that something could happen."

Alena Mitchell, 20, was sitting on the campus lawn talking with a teacher Tuesday when she was told to leave.

Mitchell said she had a hard time believing anything bad could happen at such a small campus, but she appreciated the added security and evacuation.

"That's totally understandable, what they did," she said.

Two Valley high schools also received threats of violence this week, which marked several grim anniversaries.

April 19 is the anniversary of the 1993 inferno in Waco, in which 80 members of a Texas cult died, and of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. The 1999 Columbine High School shooting and Adolf Hitler's birthday are April 20.

Corona Del Sol High School in Tempe added extra security through Friday after officials found threatening notes and messages written on bathroom stalls.

The most recent threat, found Monday, warned students of possible violence Friday.

In Goodyear, police arrested an 18-year-old Millennium High School student Tuesday on suspicion of writing a bomb threat on a Millennium High bathroom wall.

The student, whose name was not released, has been suspended pending the results of a disciplinary hearing, said Millennium High Principal Dennis Runyan.

Staff writer Eugene Scott contributed to this report

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0419wvthreat0419.html

[SOCOM8721]

This is only a few miles from where I live..... Where do all these crazies come from? TS



Today in Florida -

ST. JOHNS COUNTY, FL -- The St. Johns County Sheriff's Office has made an arrest in the wake of the tragedy at Virginia Tech.

A 14-year-old Bartram Trail High School student allegedly e-mailed a school threat to a friend. The threat claimed the boy would top the record of killing 33 people at school.

A parent intercepted the e-mail and called police Wednesday morning.

Deputies with the St. Johns County Sheriff's Office Youth Resource Unit started investigating after the phone call.

The teen apparently said he wanted to kill 100 people at school. The investigation also revealed that the boy made similar threats several weeks ago. Those went unreported.

The suspect was found at his home and taken into custody. He was charged with Threat to Throw, Project, Place or Discharge any Destructive Device. It's a second degree felony.[/I]




ALL;

This is nothing new. We attended a high school in Houston that was predominately middle and upper class. Mix of Asians, Hispanics, african Americans but predominately white. Large percentage of Jewish.

During my Junior year I was shown a pistol (.45 revolver), at school by a student (Richard) that I had gone to school with since elementary. In 6th grade he had set our class room on fire, and called in bomb threats to our school for 5 days causing the evacuation of the school for hours each of those 5 days. I asked him why he had it and he said that it was to take care of the people that were never nice to him. He was a loner, considered a weirdo by most. He "stalked" girls in the school to a point.

He was in my next period class, so I went to the Assistant Principal, Joe Tapal, who also was my family's neighbor and advised him of the situation. They removed this young man from class and got the weapons (he had a large knife as well) and two boxes of ammunition.

Setting Fires, mean people, sounds familiar and gives me the chills.

The next year a young man(Norman Thayard) shot a coach/history teacher at our school. He knocked on the classroom door, said something to Mr Peredon and fired several shots into him before another teacher tackled him. Norman came from an upper middle class family in Houston. Mr. Peredon survived but spent several weeks in critical condition and almost lost his life.

Two weeks later our next door neighbor's son also showed up at school and showed me a Colt .38 Super Auto stating that this was for a particular teacher. In order to preserve our relationship with our neighbors I notified my mother at work (Houston Police Dept.) rather than school officials and she went and got his mother. They came to the school and with the help again of Mr. Tapal they took care of that situation. That individual is still in a mental health facility today.

This was in the early 80's in Houston, Texas. Good school, Good neighborhood.

We just did not have things like the internet and the National news did not cover things like they do today.

The irony for me was that I responded to Columbine with a member of the Arapahoe County Sheriff's Office around 11:30 am 8 years ago tommorrow.
Many of our conversations after this incident for years and even this past Monday afternoon were that we hoped that they let all of the information out.

There are many things related to Columbine that were sealed and not released. All involved are covered under this court seal. Many of us that responded wish that more of the information came out in order to let people know what more to look for.

One thing that we all said then and I will say again today, this will happed again. It will be worse. There are individuals out there that will relate to the statements, "manifestos" and general feelings of the individuals that perpetrated these acts. They were well orchestrated, organized, planned, plotted and diagramed in a measure such as to inflict the most harm in the least amount of time. They new that they would take there own life and to them they were through and nothing else matter.

I look at this from the perspective that even though it is premier in the news today...In a week or two it will not be. In a month it will not be the foremost on the minds of individuals not directly related to the incident. Just as it is easy to forget that we have service personnel protecting our freedom everyday if you are not related to, parents of or a current or former/retired service member.

Again, it is up to us to be aware, teach our family members to be aware and to advise the proper authorities as well as follow through with the authorities to insure that these individuals are placed where they need to be before this happens.

On January 09, 2007, After 2 months of terrorizing my 11 year old daughter and a friend at their bus stop and numerous calls to the authorities we set up our own sting/surveillance operation in our neighborhood to catch a sex offender. On January 11, 2007, after a significantly long chase throughout the city we caught Aurelio Avelar and he was arrested by the police.

http://www.ircsheriff.org/prog_nw_inmate_search_details.cfm?bookingID=-59853

This individual changed vehicles everyday, planned his routes and I have no doubt in my mind that he would have eventually kidnapped and destroyed the life of my daughter or someone elses child.

I was immediately at our judges reidence the morning of the arrest and at his first appearance. 1 million 1 hundred thousand dollars bond. 4 counts of Felony Lewd and Lacivious Acts to a child under the age of 12 years old. He is an Illegal Alien, but worst of all the father of two very small girls.

I personally would be glad to give up my life and/or liberty and spend any amount of time in prison than to see any of these things this happen again to anyone.

But I will not give up my rights to protect myself, my family, my liberty and my property. That is the reason these rights are protected under law.

[echoes]

I wasn't playing devil's advocate. All I said was there was a good chance (raising alternative theories is also my job.) and I think there is. Moby Dick is perfect for sociopaths with its themes of obsession and self-destruction and the guy's dense prose suggests he might be trying (consciously or unconsciously) to emulate Melville.

Take it or leave it, but it was a theory offered in good faith.


x-factor,

Normally I do not imput on things like this, but after reading your response to The Team Sergeant...

As I like to say, "Only basil knows its basil." The rest of us just consider it an herb. Get it?

Who cares, is my point! So what if this young man was "un-loved, not nutured, and a loner?" Well, damnit, change your life...Join a book-club, pick-up photography...whatever! This guy will probobly get sympathy for being, "an outcast", who was picked on in school. ( I can hear the Lib's now...)

To that I say, he should have grown the hell up and grown some!
Holly

Oh, and x...when I address a QP on this site, it's Sir. Just a show of respect, and SA. my .02

[echoes]

Moving along...nothing to see here...

[SOCOM8721]

They were telling her he was just talking, but she said, especially after these last events, that she doesn't think at all that it's "just talk," so now they are going to do something about him hopefully.[/QUOTE]

Broadsword - tell her to do whatever it takes... Call the press, jump up and down. She will save lives no matter what...

[x-factor]

Echoes - I think you misunderstood my post. TS and I were giving different takes on the killer's use of the term "Ismail." No disrespect, just different analysis. I did not say anything even close to what you're suggesting, regarding excusing the killer or the like.

[echoes]

Echoes - I think you misunderstood my post. TS and I were giving different takes on the killer's use of the term "Ismail." No disrespect, just different analysis. I did not say anything even close to what you're suggesting, regarding excusing the killer or the like.

My own conclusion to your post...my mistake.

Back to the topic at hand.

Holly

[frostfire]

thank you for the update swatsurgeon. You're an inspiration for a health care professional!

Most cadets are not trained to use weapons anyway. It's an academy situation, not a tactical school. The focus is developing military character traits rather than military skills. The teaching of skills is left to the actual services. At least, that was the case when I graduated a few years ago.

you are correct, Pinhead. Several cadets did go to to the All Army Marksmanship this year to include courses taught by the USAMU, though.

[kgoerz]

The slim ball mailed the package knowing the media would splash it all over the world. How much did the knowledge that the media would turn him into front page news play in his actions?

I have never researched or read any Books about Columbine. But I can recite first and last names of the Columbine shooters just as easily as our last two presidents. Wonder where I heard those names mentioned over and over.....

[Gypsy]

AM, thanks for the article. This should be read by all Americans.

[Soft Target]

I'm a little late, pretty busy with new job on COS.

Terry: Just when they could have used her comments the most, oh well.

Pete: Saw your comments early in this string about children action during lockdown. I spent over six years, post-Columbine, working on school plans for this type of action and many others. As an EM guy in a FL panhandle county then, I worked the consequence management end of things, like EMS actions, etc. In response to a myriad of threats/hazards, officials have two major options with some variations; those are evacuate or lockdown. Central to both is maintaining control/accountability of the personnel, students, staff, faculty and visitors, etc. The course of action you espoused, desk through the window and run, might sound effective, I firmly believe it places the student at more risk than being afforded at lest a modicum of protection offered by an effective lockdown program. I participated in a few local lockdown incidents to deal with differing threats, including armed intruder although not as escalated as VT, but just as serious. IMHO and many others, having students running around willy-nilly would have placed them in greater harm than staying locked down. Please reconsider your position. Further, I would welcome any comment from the crisis management side (yeh, you blue canaries).

General Comment: I read several VA gun law epistles in this string. However, I did not read anything about the VA law that prohibits upper education students from being suspended/expelled for mental illness of any kind. Please note I have not researched this assertion that such a law exists, it wouldn't surprise me, and only pass it on as something higher that F4.

For those I know, things are going great in COS; having entered federal civil service at the ripe young age of 58. Love this place. More later,

Dave

[Pete]

.....IMHO and many others, having students running around willy-nilly would have placed them in greater harm than staying locked down. .... Please reconsider your position.......


Dave notice in my first post "Shooting". My kids are not trained to attack or defend. They hear shooting and I've told them to get out of the area, any area, the fastest way posible.

Don't worry though, I'll bet very few of their peers will follow them.

Lock down will work real great when about 5 guys decide to take over a school and make a few demands.

We must agree to disagree on this issue.

Pete

[The Reaper]

Soft Target:

One word - Beslan.

Check it out. Coming here to school near you. Sooner than you think.

TR

[CoLawman]

Dave notice in my first post "Shooting". My kids are not trained to attack or defend. They hear shooting and I've told them to get out of the area, any area, the fastest way posible.

Don't worry though, I'll bet very few of their peers will follow them.

Lock down will work real great when about 5 guys decide to take over a school and make a few demands.

We must agree to disagree on this issue.

Pete

I'm solidly with Pete on this one. I like my childs odds better if they bail out a window rather than hide under a desk hoping the door is not breached. I believe the walking into a covey of quail is analagous to my way of thinking. You have to acquire, track, and hit a target in the midst of confusion and multiple targets fleeing. I like the odds for the majority of the quail.

[medic]

5-0:

Once you have established a breach, and begin securing portions of a large building, can med teams not enter and evac areas that you have already cleared?

With the global threat we currently face, a Beslan- or Columbine-type situation is one thing that every county or metro area needs to be prepared for.

Agree that waiting is the worst thing to do. I wonder who did the intial entry and when/what/where they entered?

I am sure that details will follow.

Maybe the shooter was unaware of the campus no gun policy or forgot to check his in with security? I am sure that more laws would have deterred this senseless action.:rolleyes:

TR

I know in my department and many nieghboring departments we are not allowed on scene until we have an "All Clear" or "Scene Safe" from the police who depending on the call are there before us or we are sitting a block or two away from the scene waiting on them to show up. It's the whole thing that the cops don't want the backlash if something happens to an unprotected firefighter/emt/(paramedic).

[The Reaper]

I know in my department and many nieghboring departments we are not allowed on scene until we have an "All Clear" or "Scene Safe" from the police who depending on the call are there before us or we are sitting a block or two away from the scene waiting on them to show up. It's the whole thing that the cops don't want the backlash if something happens to an unprotected firefighter/emt/(paramedic).

They had students and LE carrying out victims.

Do civilians get to go in before med teams?

I would think that a prudent, thinking organization would analyze their disaster response planning, and realize that a large structure may not be immediately cleared by the force at hand, and the clock is running on the Golden Hour. People at Colombine died waiting for medical assistance. LEs has already stated that they are not there to provide medical care, they are focused on the tactical situation. This is nothing new.

If anything good comes out of this, maybe it will be the need to reassess our response plans for this sort of event, and leadership in all of our communities will bring all of the agencies togther to work on an integrated response plan.

Possibly a mass casualty trailer or roll out package with a bunch of Skedcos, poleless litters, trauma kits, etc. It could be handy for everything from a plane crash to a WMD event. Homeland Security may be willing to pay for some or all of it. We need to start thinking these contingencies through, before they occur. Train everyone on their responsibilities. Make sure that we can talk to one another. Then exercise quarterly or semi-annually to make sure that we are able to do the job right and to use lessons learned to improve our response.

Not second guessing, and I am not a responder, just trying to be prepared, learn lessons from our mistakes, and to think this through.

Think about it.

Incidentally, I found this Cavuto commentary to be of interest.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?041907/041907_cav_steyn&Your_World&Confronting%20Evil&acc&Your%20World&-1&Business&266&&&new

TR

[medic]

They had students and LE carrying out victims.

Do civilians get to go in before med teams?

I would think that a prudent, thinking organization would analyze their disaster response planning, and realize that a large structure may not be immediately cleared by the force at hand, and the clock is running on the Golden Hour. People at Colombine died waiting for medical assistance. LEs has already stated that they are not there to provide medical care, they are focused on the tactical situation. This is nothing new.

If anything good comes out of this, maybe it will be the need to reassess our response plans for this sort of event, and leadership in all of our communities will bring all of the agencies togther to work on an integrated response plan.

Possibly a mass casualty trailer or roll out package with a bunch of Skedcos, poleless litters, trauma kits, etc. It could be handy for everything from a plane crash to a WMD event. Homeland Security may be willing to pay for some or all of it. We need to start thinking these contingencies through, before they occur. Train everyone on their responsibilities. Make sure that we can talk to one another. Then exercise quarterly or semi-annually to make sure that we are able to do the job right and to use lessons learned to improve our response.

Not second guessing, and I am not a responder, just trying to be prepared, learn lessons from our mistakes, and to think this through.

Think about it.

TR

Sir,

I was not saying it is right. I sit in the ambulance everytime we are called to a shooting thinking to myself if these guys take any longer I am not going to get the chance to save this guys life. You have given me some good thoughts to consider. The department I work for has less money than most and our city is constantly talking about laying-off.

I will talk with my chain of command and possible take it upon myself to write the proposal for a grant from DHS for funding, since we cover an area that has 2 major flight lines going over us and 1 of those being AF.

[mumbleypeg]

This NYT op ed seems to echo TR's thoughts.



The New York Times
Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By

April 20, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Building a Better Lockdown
By CHRISTOPHER WHITCOMB

I WAS at my desk at the F.B.I.’s Critical Incident Response Group on April 20, 1999, when a colleague ducked his head into my office and asked if I’d heard the news. A school shooting in Colorado. Some place called Columbine. At least 10 dead. Columbine, I remember thinking as I clicked on the bank of TVs on the far wall. Where in God’s name is that?

After 13 years as an F.B.I. agent, I’d become somewhat inured to violence: bank robberies, murders, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City. Death had become my business. Yet these images were appalling. Teenagers were dying in a public high school. Almost as disturbing, I saw panic: people running, blue uniforms and black-garbed SWAT officers with rifles pointing at a threat no one yet understood. Confusion. Crisis. Dismay.

Such confusion may have been understandable eight years ago. But that was before a 16-year-old boy killed five students, a teacher and a guard in a Minnesota school; before a recently expelled student turned a gun on officials and students at Appalachian School of Law, killing three; before a truck driver shot 10 girls (killing five) at an Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania.

It was before the F.B.I.’s National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime held a symposium of 160 educators, law enforcement professionals and mental health experts from 18 universities in Leesburg, Va., and issued a comprehensive report on causes, mitigation strategies and security considerations of school shootings.

It was before this country’s 18,000 law enforcement agencies revised training procedures and adopted crisis-response protocols to deal with similar threats; before the release of dozens of relevant books, academic studies, television programs and documentaries; before high schools, colleges and universities made uniformed security guards a part of campus life.

So how did we end up here, yet again? Why are we still asking how a calamity like the deaths at Virginia Tech could happen?

The most obvious reason, and one that’s been widely discussed in the days since the shootings, is complacency. Well, we can wring our hands all we want, but to some extent complacency is unavoidable: it’s what sneaks in after all the blame has been handed out, the news media have disappeared, the critics have taken their shots and the political knees have stopped jerking.

There’s also a psychological reason for letting our guard down: we all want to return to day-to-day business and focus on things that are most likely to affect us. Deeper down, there is a natural instinct in all of us to block out the idea that anything so unthinkable could happen to us. To stay alert means to acknowledge that horror is just around the corner, and that runs against human nature.

And, to some extent, complacency is a rational response: major crises like Columbine and Blacksburg are statistically unlikely ever to directly involve any of us. Federal agencies like the F.B.I. and Department of Homeland Security try to maintain focus, dumping hundreds of millions of dollars each year into crisis management programs, but most other agencies are loath to spend hard-fought tax dollars on “frivolous” equipment and training they are unlikely ever to use.

Outside major metropolitan areas, high-level police officers won’t face anything even remotely like Blacksburg during their careers. It simply makes better sense to finance anti-gang operations and drug eradication programs in schools than to pay SWAT operators to sit around waiting for 16-year-old assassins. The solution doesn’t lie in blaming complacency for these events, but in finding a level of preparedness that, for local jurisdictions and large institutions, makes sense in terms of risk and expense.

A far less discussed reason we find ourselves facing another massacre is inexperience. Law enforcement is a noble profession, filled with men and women who devote their lives to protecting our communities; but crisis resolution in most departments is a career path that administrators and those with hopes for promotion avoid like the plague.

Why volunteer for the chance to make split-second choices under the worst possible circumstances, knowing you are going to be second-guessed and perhaps blamed every step of the way? The F.B.I.’s Critical Incident Response Group had to develop a computer-based training program because field office commanders resisted larger interagency training conducted by real people. These people knew that poor performance in simulations could damage their careers for real.

So, how do we move forward and prevent another nightmare like Blacksburg?

For starters, we have to assign blame where it belongs: on those who commit these heinous acts. Then our schools, businesses, hospitals, other institutions and communities must take the simple, commonsense decisions that countless studies recommend. Sure, the sorts of precautionary steps and community awareness being promoted in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings are important, but all the profiling and counseling in the world will not stop every attack. We need to prepare for and deal with the attack itself.

•

Every institution should have a crisis response plan. The scope and complexity will of course depend on factors like population, square footage and the presence of hazardous materials, but most don’t have to be expensive. Often small businesses can get away with simply taping a sheet of paper next to the copier that identifies exits, emergency contacts and safe areas inside the building. Most large corporations and institutions will need to find professional advice. (As someone who provides such advice, I admit it doesn’t come cheap. But the cost of preparation will pay off should disaster strike.)

•

While each plan will be different, the fundamentals remain the same. All should insure that potential victims are able to maintain two-way contact with law enforcement and emergency medical providers. Many people feel that crisis-call stations, which have long been staples at universities and in some communities, are no longer necessary in the age of cellphones. That’s wrong: these brightly marked, well-lighted phone towers not only provide communications when cellular networks are overloaded, but their very presence can deter attackers.

•

Whenever written emergency directions are posted, they should include understandable symbols for foreign-language speakers, children and the visually impaired. That may seem obvious, but I can’t tell you how many “emergency plans” I’ve seen that bogged down in unnecessary verbiage, directed people to nonexistent stairwells and failed to consider non-English speakers.

•

All emergency plans should prominently list a “check in” number that every employee or student should be asked to call in the event of emergency. Even if you feel you are safe, rescue experts need to know where you are and how many people are in the area. (It will also provide relief to your family if the situation drags on.)

•

Large institutions should compile detailed, easily available “site surveys” of buildings and campuses that rescue and law-enforcement officials can use to plan their strategies in a crisis. Site surveys should include blueprints of all buildings and infrastructure, videotapes of interior spaces, lock information, charts of surveillance camera coverage, notes on access to tunnels and other information.

•

I recommend to my clients that they get a professional risk assessment of all their current policies that can, for example, point out improvements to exterior lighting and in their ability to “lock down” all buildings.

•

While the police and medical professionals will eventually take charge, every institution should have set response protocols for its security personnel and employees who will manage the initial stages of the crisis. Where possible, planners should build and hire security staff for safe zones that these people can operate from, and where potential victims can take refuge.

•

And because all threats — natural, criminal or terrorism-related — eventually require evacuation, employers should make sure their people know where and under what circumstance they should move from “bunkering in place” to trying an escape. Often it is safer to find cover where you are than to expose yourself by running away. Helping your workers understand how to make the right decision can mean the difference between life and death.

As I reflect on the Blacksburg shootings and think about ways to keep it from happening again, I look back to that April afternoon in 1999 and the important project I was trying to finish. It was a paper on crisis management — one of the last requirements I needed for the master’s degree I soon received. From Virginia Tech.

Christopher Whitcomb, the chief executive of a security company, was a sniper on the F.B.I.’s hostage rescue unit. He is the author of two novels, “Black” and “White.”

[Karl.Masters]

Interesting analysis by Ted Nugent on CNN.

By Ted Nugent
Special to CNN

Adjust font size:
Editor's note: Rock guitarist Ted Nugent has sold more than 30 million albums. He's also a gun rights activist and serves on the board of directors of the National Rifle Association. His program, "Ted Nugent Spirit of the Wild," can be seen on the Outdoor Channel.

Read an opposing take on gun control from journalist Tom Plate: Let's lay down our right to bear arms

WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

Nearly a decade ago, a Springfield, Oregon, high schooler, a hunter familiar with firearms, was able to bring an unfolding rampage to an abrupt end when he identified a gunman attempting to reload his .22-caliber rifle, made the tactical decision to make a move and tackled the shooter.

A few years back, an assistant principal at Pearl High School in Mississippi, which was a gun-free zone, retrieved his legally owned Colt .45 from his car and stopped a Columbine wannabe from continuing his massacre at another school after he had killed two and wounded more at Pearl.

At an eighth-grade school dance in Pennsylvania, a boy fatally shot a teacher and wounded two students before the owner of the dance hall brought the killing to a halt with his own gun.

More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave, average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto.

My hero, Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp, was not allowed by Texas law to carry her handgun into Luby's Cafeteria that fateful day in 1991, when due to bureaucrat-forced unarmed helplessness she could do nothing to stop satanic George Hennard from killing 23 people and wounding more than 20 others before he shot himself. Hupp was unarmed for no other reason than denial-ridden "feel good" politics.

She has since led the charge for concealed weapon upgrade in Texas, where we can now stop evil. Yet, there are still the mindless puppets of the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun organizations insisting on continuing the gun-free zone insanity by which innocents are forced into unarmed helplessness. Shame on them. Shame on America. Shame on the anti-gunners all.

No one was foolish enough to debate Ryder truck regulations or ammonia nitrate restrictions or a "cult of agriculture fertilizer" following the unabashed evil of Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime against America on that fateful day in Oklahoma City. No one faulted kitchen utensils or other hardware of choice after Jeffrey Dahmer was caught drugging, mutilating, raping, murdering and cannibalizing his victims. Nobody wanted "steak knife control" as they autopsied the dead nurses in Chicago, Illinois, as Richard Speck went on trial for mass murder.

Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. Shame on us.

Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people.

Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in illegal possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun law. Feel better yet? Didn't think so.

Who doesn't get this? Who has the audacity to demand unarmed helplessness? Who likes dead good guys?

I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones. People who are so desperate in their drive to control others, so mindless in their denial that they pretend access to gas causes arson, Ryder trucks and fertilizer cause terrorism, water causes drowning, forks and spoons cause obesity, dialing 911 will somehow save your life, and that their greedy clamoring to "feel good" is more important than admitting that armed citizens are much better equipped to stop evil than unarmed, helpless ones.

Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.

[SOCOM8721]

Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back.


RELEASE THE SEALED COLUMBINE EVIDENCE! LET ALL KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR AND BE AWARE!

[echoes]

Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.

Mr. Nugent, Very well spoken sir.

Strings off for you.

Holly

[swatsurgeon]

Some good news.......
Of the 28 injured patients evacuated from VA tech, only 1 died. She had a lethal head injury and would not have survived even if it happened in our parking lot.

Regional disaster plan worked very well. The 3 worst injuries made it to the Level 1 Trauma certer (1 death mentioned) and one of our patients was recently transfered closer to home in very good condition after having been shot in the face/head. Our second face/head patient is making some positive progress, less critical, following commands.....but we have a ways to go.

All other operated on patients at the other 3 hospitals are doing well.

As a side note: we owe a thanks to the military for teaching us alot of what civilian Trauma surgeons and Trauma centers do today. There would be a greater loss of life if we had not learned the valuable lessens learned the 'hard way' by our miltary brothers for things medical. I am grateful for all that we have learned from you.

ss

[Sionnach]

God bless you, Swatsurgeon.

[kgoerz]

This NYT op ed seems to echo TR's thoughts.



The New York Times
Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By

April 20, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Building a Better Lockdown
By CHRISTOPHER WHITCOMB

I WAS at my desk at the F.B.I.’s Critical Incident Response Group on April 20, 1999, when a colleague ducked his head into my office and asked if I’d heard the news. A school shooting in Colorado. Some place called Columbine. At least 10 dead. Columbine, I remember thinking as I clicked on the bank of TVs on the far wall. Where in God’s name is that?

After 13 years as an F.B.I. agent, I’d become somewhat inured to violence: bank robberies, murders, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City. Death had become my business. Yet these images were appalling. Teenagers were dying in a public high school. Almost as disturbing, I saw panic: people running, blue uniforms and black-garbed SWAT officers with rifles pointing at a threat no one yet understood. Confusion. Crisis. Dismay.

Such confusion may have been understandable eight years ago. But that was before a 16-year-old boy killed five students, a teacher and a guard in a Minnesota school; before a recently expelled student turned a gun on officials and students at Appalachian School of Law, killing three; before a truck driver shot 10 girls (killing five) at an Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania.

It was before the F.B.I.’s National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime held a symposium of 160 educators, law enforcement professionals and mental health experts from 18 universities in Leesburg, Va., and issued a comprehensive report on causes, mitigation strategies and security considerations of school shootings.

It was before this country’s 18,000 law enforcement agencies revised training procedures and adopted crisis-response protocols to deal with similar threats; before the release of dozens of relevant books, academic studies, television programs and documentaries; before high schools, colleges and universities made uniformed security guards a part of campus life.

So how did we end up here, yet again? Why are we still asking how a calamity like the deaths at Virginia Tech could happen?

The most obvious reason, and one that’s been widely discussed in the days since the shootings, is complacency. Well, we can wring our hands all we want, but to some extent complacency is unavoidable: it’s what sneaks in after all the blame has been handed out, the news media have disappeared, the critics have taken their shots and the political knees have stopped jerking.

There’s also a psychological reason for letting our guard down: we all want to return to day-to-day business and focus on things that are most likely to affect us. Deeper down, there is a natural instinct in all of us to block out the idea that anything so unthinkable could happen to us. To stay alert means to acknowledge that horror is just around the corner, and that runs against human nature.

And, to some extent, complacency is a rational response: major crises like Columbine and Blacksburg are statistically unlikely ever to directly involve any of us. Federal agencies like the F.B.I. and Department of Homeland Security try to maintain focus, dumping hundreds of millions of dollars each year into crisis management programs, but most other agencies are loath to spend hard-fought tax dollars on “frivolous” equipment and training they are unlikely ever to use.

Outside major metropolitan areas, high-level police officers won’t face anything even remotely like Blacksburg during their careers. It simply makes better sense to finance anti-gang operations and drug eradication programs in schools than to pay SWAT operators to sit around waiting for 16-year-old assassins. The solution doesn’t lie in blaming complacency for these events, but in finding a level of preparedness that, for local jurisdictions and large institutions, makes sense in terms of risk and expense.

A far less discussed reason we find ourselves facing another massacre is inexperience. Law enforcement is a noble profession, filled with men and women who devote their lives to protecting our communities; but crisis resolution in most departments is a career path that administrators and those with hopes for promotion avoid like the plague.

Why volunteer for the chance to make split-second choices under the worst possible circumstances, knowing you are going to be second-guessed and perhaps blamed every step of the way? The F.B.I.’s Critical Incident Response Group had to develop a computer-based training program because field office commanders resisted larger interagency training conducted by real people. These people knew that poor performance in simulations could damage their careers for real.

So, how do we move forward and prevent another nightmare like Blacksburg?

For starters, we have to assign blame where it belongs: on those who commit these heinous acts. Then our schools, businesses, hospitals, other institutions and communities must take the simple, commonsense decisions that countless studies recommend. Sure, the sorts of precautionary steps and community awareness being promoted in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings are important, but all the profiling and counseling in the world will not stop every attack. We need to prepare for and deal with the attack itself.

•

Every institution should have a crisis response plan. The scope and complexity will of course depend on factors like population, square footage and the presence of hazardous materials, but most don’t have to be expensive. Often small businesses can get away with simply taping a sheet of paper next to the copier that identifies exits, emergency contacts and safe areas inside the building. Most large corporations and institutions will need to find professional advice. (As someone who provides such advice, I admit it doesn’t come cheap. But the cost of preparation will pay off should disaster strike.)

•

While each plan will be different, the fundamentals remain the same. All should insure that potential victims are able to maintain two-way contact with law enforcement and emergency medical providers. Many people feel that crisis-call stations, which have long been staples at universities and in some communities, are no longer necessary in the age of cellphones. That’s wrong: these brightly marked, well-lighted phone towers not only provide communications when cellular networks are overloaded, but their very presence can deter attackers.

•

Whenever written emergency directions are posted, they should include understandable symbols for foreign-language speakers, children and the visually impaired. That may seem obvious, but I can’t tell you how many “emergency plans” I’ve seen that bogged down in unnecessary verbiage, directed people to nonexistent stairwells and failed to consider non-English speakers.

•

All emergency plans should prominently list a “check in” number that every employee or student should be asked to call in the event of emergency. Even if you feel you are safe, rescue experts need to know where you are and how many people are in the area. (It will also provide relief to your family if the situation drags on.)

•

Large institutions should compile detailed, easily available “site surveys” of buildings and campuses that rescue and law-enforcement officials can use to plan their strategies in a crisis. Site surveys should include blueprints of all buildings and infrastructure, videotapes of interior spaces, lock information, charts of surveillance camera coverage, notes on access to tunnels and other information.

•

I recommend to my clients that they get a professional risk assessment of all their current policies that can, for example, point out improvements to exterior lighting and in their ability to “lock down” all buildings.

•

While the police and medical professionals will eventually take charge, every institution should have set response protocols for its security personnel and employees who will manage the initial stages of the crisis. Where possible, planners should build and hire security staff for safe zones that these people can operate from, and where potential victims can take refuge.

•

And because all threats — natural, criminal or terrorism-related — eventually require evacuation, employers should make sure their people know where and under what circumstance they should move from “bunkering in place” to trying an escape. Often it is safer to find cover where you are than to expose yourself by running away. Helping your workers understand how to make the right decision can mean the difference between life and death.

As I reflect on the Blacksburg shootings and think about ways to keep it from happening again, I look back to that April afternoon in 1999 and the important project I was trying to finish. It was a paper on crisis management — one of the last requirements I needed for the master’s degree I soon received. From Virginia Tech.

Christopher Whitcomb, the chief executive of a security company, was a sniper on the F.B.I.’s hostage rescue unit. He is the author of two novels, “Black” and “White.”

So this is how the Goverment, Businesses, Institutions and local LEO's should protect people. They will never admit that there is nothing they can do. Nothing in there about Armed Citizens. Just risk assessments, safety zones and fire drills:rolleyes:

[Gypsy]

That is great news Swatsurgeon, may the female who passed RIP.

[Texian]

I agree. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commentary.nugent/index.html)

[ClemsonTiger]

I was recently informed that the Westboro Baptist "Church" had planned on picketing the funerals of some of the victims, but agreed not to in exchange for airtime on a few news networks. Thank God that they aren't going to be there during the burials.

On a side note, if anyone ever wants to take a roadtrip to Topeka, Kansas (where the WBC is), I will gladly join in and contribute to the cost of however many bats we may need.

[echoes]

I have been closely following these wackos, and am still waiting for a response to my email...however this was printed on their website this morning"

"WBC to appear on Mike Gallagher's National radio show, Tuesday, April 24, from 9:00am-noon in lieu of picketing Virginia Tech funerals"

I can only imagine the carnage, had these people actually shown up!:eek:

Holly

[Ret10Echo]

Developing, from the AP


Virginia Tech was locked down Thursday when three children attending a summer camp said they saw a man holding what looked like a gun, an alarming report on the campus where a 2007 massacre left 33 people dead.

The university issued an alert on its website at 9:37 a.m. Thursday telling students and employees to stay inside and lock their doors. University spokesman Larry Hincker said during a news conference later in the morning that the campus alert remained in effect and that people should stay indoors until further notice.

The university posted the alert on its website and its official Twitter account. The Roanoke Times also reported that the university sounded its emergency sirens and issued an emergency alert by phone and email.

The school's website was inundated throughout the morning, and school officials said they were bringing additional servers online to deal with the traffic.

The children told police they saw the man walking fast toward the volleyball courts, carrying what might have been a handgun covered by some type of cloth. Police swarmed the area but said they could not find a gunman matching their description. The university said on its website that no one else has reported a person with a gun or anything suspicious.

Va. Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said that the three children were interviewed, and that the information they gave was deemed credible.

[booker]

Developing, from the AP

Nothing out of the ordinary going on elsewhere in town. My office is a few blocks from the sighting, but there doesn't really seem to be a concerted effort to look for the suspect off school grounds.

[Slantwire]

Nothing out of the ordinary going on elsewhere in town. My office is a few blocks from the sighting, but there doesn't really seem to be a concerted effort to look for the suspect off school grounds.

I'm hearing it was a report from a handful of camp kids (aged 10-12) that they saw someone carrying something, covered in cloth, that could conceivably have been a handgun.

University took the report seriously (understandable due to history), but came up dry. Temporary campus lock-down while they figured out what was going on, apparently now lifted. (Football practice pushed from 1600 to 1700, but not canceled, so life appears to be moving on.)

News media, on the other hand, took it and ran with it. Imagine that.