Guatemala- Ruined by America?

[Dub]

QPs,
A girl in my classes went on a mission trip to Guatemala over spring break. She came back saying how horrible the conditions were and that it was all America's fault, someone obviously told her all this.
Today another girl who went on the same trip published an article in JMU's newspaper reiterating what this girl had told me. Stating that much of the strife there was a result of our support and military advisorship of some Guatamalan faction during the cold war. She states our military training which we provided was put to ill use in Guatemala's civil war.

Here is the article: http://www.thebreeze.org/2007/03-15/op3.html

I'm fairly cynical when I hear about how America is at fault for a country's suffering. So...did America bail on Guatemala or is this another case of some liberal indoctrinating students with hate-america BS?

- Dub

[The Reaper]

I suspect that it is the latter.

We were a lot more active in Central America back when Nicaragua went commie and El Sal had an active insurgency, but we train a lot of poor countries who seem pretty happy to get the training and the dollars.

As far as Guatemala goes, they were concerned about the spreading insurgencies and cracked down pretty hard on the dissidents, but that is not our fault, despite what the Socialist Workers Party would have us believe.

The corruption, concentration of wealth, a high indigenous (Indian) population, and lack of natural resources conspire to keep most of the country impoverished.

Again, another country seeking to blame us to divert attention from their internal problems.

And American college kids will believe anything, especially bad news about their own country.

TR

[Dub]

And American college kids will believe anything, especially bad news about their own country.

TR

Sad, but it is amazing how many are out there who simply swallow such garbage.

Personally, I find it easier to rationalize how someone who is born into a terrorist / islamist society and is indoctrinated in hate since the day they are born can kill in the name of religion, than I can rationalize how those who grow up in America can become such America-hating-spineless-ignorant-liberals

- Dub

[NousDefionsDoc]

Guatemala is a LATAM gap state - for a lot of reasons. The US does not have a responsibility to Guatemala, we do what is in our own interests.

[Dub]

TR,
I emailed the girl from my class your response, telling her that I was not attacking her, but just wanted to give her a different opinion on the situtation. Also I put in NDD info about gap states. Here is her reply. Which is excellent!

Hey Don,

No worries! I always like to learn more about a subject,
especially hearing opposing viewpoints.

Your first email related many times to the Breeze article
written about Guatemala. I would not even begin to know
whether or not her sources are credible, and I certainly do
not assume all of the accusations that are presented in the
article. During our short walk the other day, there was not
exactly the opportunity to discuss the issue in detail, so I
chose the information that had appeared most shocking to me
on my trip. I should have articulated my opinion more
clearly.

On my trip we learned about several of the factors that the
US Special Forces Soldier discussed in his email
(corruption, wealth distribution, etc.) In addition, we
learned about the lack of a well-established property
system, as well as the lack of motivation among impoverished
inhabitants of Guatemala to improve their conditions (a very
interesting subject if you get a chance to read about it!).
However, I also was able to speak to many Guatemalan
citizens about their perspective on America and American
policies. Granted their opinions will be tainted, just as
the opinions of American citizens may easily be tainted;
however, it definitely opened my eyes to the possibility
that there may be more factors contributing to the current
circumstances in Guatemala than I was aware of.

I completely agree with you on many counts; it always
bothers me when I see people making assumptions about
situations based on minimal or not credible sources.
Therefore, I am embarrassed in the sense that I chose words
that made me come across as America-bashing and believing
solely that America is responsible for the poverty in
Guatemala. However, I am definitely not “simply accepting”
the fact that America is responsible for any of the current
issues in Guatemala and have been constantly researching the
topic since I returned home from spring break.

I am always looking for more information, so thank you again
for sending the information you received! The email
response was very interesting, in addition to that website.
I definitely am interested in hearing any new viewpoints on
the subject if you get any other information.

See ya in class!

[one-zero]

I own a home and have family in 'guate'...and speak from both personal/professional observation of this phenomena of self-loathing from Americans. The majority have no more than transient experience with the LATAM regions or populations which they later starting spouting leftist sound-bites about.

There is an entire sub-culture (industry) in LATAM that feeds off transient US students/travelers and dominates the areas these people are 'herded' within respective countries and the folks they are exposed to...it's usually a function of convenience as the groups provide the entree most Americans lack - Language.

Many feel they are getting an 'authentic' taste of the envronment and indigenous people when in actuality it's a gristmill the locals have had down pat for 20+ years.

As for our QP members (most who speak the language of areas they frequent) - we tend to avoid the above locales like the plague, as do many of the self-respecting citizens of those countries...while everyone loves a good conspiracy in LATAM, when you get to the root causes of failure/success in any given country it comes back to the inhabitants action/inaction regarding cronyism, nepotism, and other forms of corruption (and sheer incompetence) - not a superpower boogeyman like USA, Russia, China....the idiots in Cuba, Venezuela, and perhaps Nicaragua (word is Danny O. has seen the capitalist light - but is just using old FSLN soundbites for votes) have no one to blame but themselves.

As for Guatemala's situation...any gripes there reference USA are throwback ploys used to sucker the same folks that buy Che' T-shirts and attend Cindy Sheehan rallies - no substance.

It's an easy business to get into, and there's fresh meat every semester/summer.

salud,
1-0

[The Reaper]

Dub:

Do you know how many Guatemalans flee Guatemala every year for the US?

I add this only to point out that it is hard for me to accept that if the average Guatemalan actually believed that the US had destroyed his country by training the Army to oppress the population, that they would come here to the source of all evil as they perceive it.

The point your friend raised about the lack of motivation among the indig is valid and frequently observed. I have often wondered why we were there as visitors repairing schools, building clinics, etc. At one such event, I asked my host nation military counterpart why we didn't just provide the paint and brushes and let the parents who were watching us paint their childrens' school do it themselves, he explained that they would just sell the paint and gear in the local marketplace for whatever it would bring. Curious.

Since 1985, I have been to every country in Latin America except for one. Over my career, I have lived in Latin America for more than seven years. I have an undergrad degree in Political Science and a Masters in Military Arts and Sciences with a concentration in History. I have a pretty good background in National Defense as well, from Unconventional Warfare to Foreign Internal Defense. My Spanish is rated at a 3/3 level, the highest a non-native speaker can attain. During my time there, I have walked the streets alone in some poor neighborhoods, interacted with Latin American Presidents and worked directly for US Ambassadors, as well as the most junior soldados in their militaries. I have been responsible for the execution of US military strategy in those countries. I tell you this not to toot my horn, but to establish a basis of credibility against being labeled as "tainted", and to say that I think I know a little bit more about the region than your basic tourist.

The US is not responsible for the strife in that country or that region. The internal policies and problems of those countries are. The training the US provided to the Latin American nations is normally basic FM 7-8 and & 7-10 type operations, includes large blocks of instruction on Human Rights, and none that I am aware of on how to oppress your countrymen. They probably learned that from the Cubans, or some other Marxist, Leninist, or Maoist group.

The worst I have heard said about the US in Guatemala is that some personnel were taught interrogation techniques by US Military Intelligence personnel. I can assure you that anyone captured in the region would MUCH rather be interrogated for months by US personnel than being questioned for a day by the local descendants of the Aztecs or Mayans. I am sure that US "torture" techniques like sleep deprivation or loud music would be very familiiar to most college students.

There is an group of semi-educated people in most foreign countries that exists by blaming the US for all evils there, even if they have been the recipients of large amounts of US foreign aid. They have counterparts in the US (mostly in academia) who make a living by doing the same. A short overseas tour in the service of one's country to see the world from a different perspective is usually enough to correct the blind acceptance of that view.

Best of luck.

TR

[Dub]

Do any of you who have posted have a problem with me putting your replies into a letter to the editor in response to the other article.

I will post what I have drawn up for your approval before submitting.

- Dub

[Team Sergeant]

Do any of you who have posted have a problem with me putting your replies into a letter to the editor in response to the other article.

I will post what I have drawn up for your approval before submitting.

- Dub

Not as long as you properly credit the sources.;)

Team Sergeant

[Dub]

TS,
You certaintly do not have to worry about note being cited appropriately. At least by me :)


Here is what I have drawn up, feel free to post suggested changes/additions/removals/corrections:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The article recently published concerning Guatemala is
disgustingly unresearched and naive. I hope the Breeze weeds
out such misguided works in the future, and Ms. Novak gains
some situational awareness.

I am cynical when I hear how America is responsible for
large amounts of suffering, thus I showed the article to US
Army Special Forces soldiers via www.professionalsoldiers.com. Everyone on this website who has "Quiet Professional" under their screen name is a verified Special Forces soldier.
For those of you not familar with the US Army Special Forces, these soldiers are trained to become experts in foreign culture; learning langauge, history, economics...everything they can about their area of responsibility in addition to military training and learning the art of teaching.

Here is my question to them and the responses of several US
Army Special Forces soldiers. I hope these men can dispel the liberal lies so definitely stated by Ms. Novak, and encourage her and others to do their research before writing into a newspaper read by intelligent people with good situational awareness:

Quiet Professionals,

Today a girl who went on a mission trip to Guatemala
published an article in JMU's newspaper saying how horrible
the conditions were and that it was all America's fault,
someone obviously told her all this.
She stated that much of the strife there was a result
of our support and military advisorship of some Guatamalan
faction during the cold war. She states our military
training which we provided was put to ill use in Guatemala's
civil war.

Here is the article: http://www.thebreeze.org/2007/03-
15/op3.html

I'm fairly cynical when I hear about how America is at fault
for a country's suffering. So...did America bail on
Guatemala or is this another case of some liberal
indoctrinating students with hate-america BS?

- Dub
-------------------------------------------------------------
Response from a Green Beret:

As far as Guatemala goes, they were concerned about the spreading insurgencies and cracked down pretty hard on the dissidents, but that is not our fault, despite what the Socialist Workers Party would have us believe.

The corruption, concentration of wealth, a high indigenous (Indian) population, and lack of natural resources conspire to keep most of the country impoverished.

Again, another country seeking to blame us to divert attention from their internal problems.

And American college kids will believe anything, especially bad news about their own country.

TR
-------------------------------------------------------------
Response from a Green Beret:

I own a home and have family in 'guate'...and speak from
both personal/professional observation of this phenomena of
self-loathing from Americans. The majority have no more than
transient experience with the LATAM regions or populations
which they later starting spouting leftist sound-bites about.

There is an entire sub-culture (industry) in LATAM that
feeds off transient US students/travelers and dominates the
areas these people are 'herded' within respective countries
and the folks they are exposed to...it's usually a function
of convenience as the groups provide the entree most
Americans lack - Language.

Many feel they are getting an 'authentic' taste of the
envronment and indigenous people when in actuality it's a
gristmill the locals have had down pat for 20+ years.

As for our QP members (most who speak the language of areas
they frequent) - we tend to avoid the above locales like the
plague, as do many of the self-respecting citizens of those
countries...while everyone loves a good conspiracy in LATAM,
when you get to the root causes of failure/success in any
given country it comes back to the inhabitants
action/inaction regarding cronyism, nepotism, and other
forms of corruption (and sheer incompetence) - not a
superpower boogeyman like USA, Russia, China....the idiots
in Cuba, Venezuela, and perhaps Nicaragua (word is Danny O.
has seen the capitalist light - but is just using old FSLN
soundbites for votes) have no one to blame but themselves.

As for Guatemala's situation...any gripes there reference
USA are throwback ploys used to sucker the same folks that
buy Che' T-shirts and attend Cindy Sheehan rallies - no
substance.

It's an easy business to get into, and there's fresh meat
every semester/summer.

salud,
1-0
-------------------------------------------------------------
Another response from TR:


Do you know how many Guatemalans flee Guatemala every year
for the US?

I add this only to point out that it is hard for me to
accept that if the average Guatemalan actually believed that
the US had destroyed his country by training the Army to
oppress the population, that they would come here to the
source of all evil as they perceive it.

The point your friend raised about the lack of motivation
among the indig is valid and frequently observed. I have
often wondered why we were there as visitors repairing
schools, building clinics, etc. At one such event, I asked
the host nation military counterpart why we didn't just
provide the paint and brushes and let the parents who were
watching us paint their children's school do it themselves,
he explained that they would just sell the paint and gear in
the local marketplace for whatever it would bring. Curious.

I have been to every country in Latin America except for
one, and started going there in 1985. Over the years, I have
lived in Latin America for more than seven years. I have an
undergrad degree in Political Science and a Masters in
Military Arts and Sciences with a concentration in History.
I have a pretty good background in National Defense, from
Unconventional Warfare to Foreign Internal Defense. My
Spanish is rated at a 3/3 level, the highest a non-native
speaker can attain. During my time there, I have walked the
streets alone in some poor neighborhoods, interacted with
Presidents and worked directly for US Ambassadors, as well
as soldados. I have been responsible for the execution of US
military strategy in those countries. I tell you this not to
toot my horn, but to establish a basis of credibility
against being labeled as "tainted", and to say that I think
I know a little bit more about the region than your basic
tourist.

The US is not responsible for the strife in that country or
that region. The internal policies and problems of those
countries are. The training the US provided to the Latin
American nations is normally basic FM 7-8 and & 7-10 type
operations, and includes large blocks of instruction on
Human Rights.

The worst I have heard is that some personnel were taught
interrogation techniques by US Military Intelligence
personnel. I can assure you that anyone captured in the
region would MUCH rather be interrogated for months by US
personnel than being questioned for a day by the local
descendants of the Aztecs or Mayans. I am sure that
US "torture" techniques like sleep deprivation or loud music
would be very familiiar to most college students.

There is an group of semi-educated people in most foreign
countries that exists by blaming the US for all evils there,
even if they have been the recipients of large amounts of US
foreign aid. They have counterparts in the US (mostly in
academia) who make a living by doing the same. A short
overseas tour in the service of one's country to see the
world from a different perspective is usually enough to
correct the blind acceptance of that view.

Best of luck.

TR
__________________
"On a night in mid-October 2001, 11 members of an A-
detachment from the 5th SF Group dropped into a valley deep
inside Taliban territory in central Afghanistan....Gentlemen, every man on that team was carrying America's foreign policy on his shoulders, and
that's one hell of a responsibility."
- CWO3 Charles E. Simmons, U.S. Army SF

De Oppresso Liber

-------------------------------------------------------------
Another Green Beret states:

Guatemala is a LATAM gap state - for a lot of reasons. The
US does not have a responsibility to Guatemala, we do what
is in our own interests.

- NDD
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You can read more about gap states here: http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/published/pentagonsnewmap.htm

[kgoerz]

The point your friend raised about the lack of motivation among the indig is valid

The best example of this has to be Haiti. How could any sane person spend time in that country. Then come to the conclusion that we could make a change for the better. It's amazing the millions of dollars and resources Haiti received during the Clinton years. After the main power plant was finished and providing power to the capital. Providing jobs to the locals. It was turned over to the Haitian Govt. It was immediately stripped and the metal sold for scrap. This wasn't out of control looting by criminals. It was a planned community event.
I am sure to this day we are providing assistance to these very same people. I been in some crappy places before. Haiti was by far the worse. What made it so bad compared to others. The people weren't torn by war and disease. They aren't isolated from the west or primitive. They just have no desire to live. If breathing required effort they would all die.
Saw a pallet of food supplies rotting and being ripped apart by dogs because no one would break it down. Before I found out about the one fenced off area by the Beach. I thought my parents were crazy when they told me their cruise ship stopped in Haiti.

[one-zero]

Oh Kg just had to throw in the Haiti card!! The ugly anomaly in primarily hispano-colonized LATAM...

Unfortunately our honest, objective discussions of Haiti's situation will always lead to the apologists citing bigotry on the NorteAmericano's part...Even though we've been there and 99% of them have not.

I used to jokingly tell friends thinking of working in West Africa or Somalia to get a little time in Haiti and see if they like it before signing on for the long haul on the dark continent, had nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture. It's incredible the night/day difference between Haiti/DomRep even though they occupy the same island and had the same available resources at hand - DR is no model of perfection, but it shines in comparison to it's neighbor.

For my 2cents worth, the indig everywhere else in LATAM deserve just a tad more credit than the haiti crowd, I'm generalizing of course....what a damned waste of caribbean real estate.

salud,
1-0

[NousDefionsDoc]

I own a home and have family in 'guate'...and speak from both personal/professional observation of this phenomena of self-loathing from Americans. The majority have no more than transient experience with the LATAM regions or populations which they later starting spouting leftist sound-bites about.

There is an entire sub-culture (industry) in LATAM that feeds off transient US students/travelers and dominates the areas these people are 'herded' within respective countries and the folks they are exposed to...it's usually a function of convenience as the groups provide the entree most Americans lack - Language.

Many feel they are getting an 'authentic' taste of the envronment and indigenous people when in actuality it's a gristmill the locals have had down pat for 20+ years.

As for our QP members (most who speak the language of areas they frequent) - we tend to avoid the above locales like the plague, as do many of the self-respecting citizens of those countries...while everyone loves a good conspiracy in LATAM, when you get to the root causes of failure/success in any given country it comes back to the inhabitants action/inaction regarding cronyism, nepotism, and other forms of corruption (and sheer incompetence) - not a superpower boogeyman like USA, Russia, China....the idiots in Cuba, Venezuela, and perhaps Nicaragua (word is Danny O. has seen the capitalist light - but is just using old FSLN soundbites for votes) have no one to blame but themselves.

As for Guatemala's situation...any gripes there reference USA are throwback ploys used to sucker the same folks that buy Che' T-shirts and attend Cindy Sheehan rallies - no substance.

It's an easy business to get into, and there's fresh meat every semester/summer.

salud,
1-0
Have you ever heard of General Letona?:munchin

[one-zero]

Presume you're talking about below:

November 1996 – General Roberto Letona, the military attaché in Washington, D.C., is ordered to return to Guatemala following revelations that he had stolen US$2.7 billion in tax revenue over the past 15 years. Letona is linked to alleged crime boss Alfredo Moreno.

>>>never met or worked him personally, but know the type...you remember that even local cuartel Cdrs were running rackets in their own AORs...guys like Letona are big time though. But everyone seems to have a racket including the utilities/phone companies...same ol' same ol'.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Yeah, same guy. He's more famous for the coup though. I think a lot of that stuff was a smear afterwards. I worked with his son for about a year. I met him once. Nice guy.;)

[one-zero]

All part of the landscape down there verdad??? Know many of these guys personally as well...but at the end of the day can't go native as they are capable of doing some off the wall stuff good & bad - but not mine to judge as a servant first/foremost to USA. These lefties buying crap from other side have lost sight of that...

Hell, there's still a crowd of goofballs trying to shut down the School of Americas - only cite cases which are Anti-US....but never the good some of the grads have brought to their countries or USA as a result of 1st hand exposure to America.

On that note - it's interesting the number of commies/et al who've made their way over here that are loath to leave...

[Dub]

NDD,
Could you explain what our interests are a bit. Its just that I can see some liberal taking your words:

"The US does not have a responsibility to Guatemala, we do what is in our own interests."

and saying... look there is the problem right there, Americans are selfish and are robbing that country.

Nevermind that America's interests are usually stability and helping people.

Thanks,
- Dub

[The Reaper]

NDD,
Could you explain what our interests are a bit. Its just that I can see some liberal taking your words:

"The US does not have a responsibility to Guatemala, we do what is in our own interests."

and saying... look there is the problem right there, Americans are selfish and are robbing that country.

Nevermind that America's interests are usually stability and helping people.

Thanks,
- Dub

Robbing them of what?

Illegal aliens?

Guatemala does not have a tremendous amount of resources to steal. I can pretty much guarantee that we have given them far more than we have taken.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

What the Reaper said and hence one of the reasons it is a gap state. Same with Honduras.

Every country does and should what is in its own best interests.

[Dub]

Well... whoever published what I wrote must be half retarded.

They cut out my question to you and your responses...and wrongly edited my words so when I refer to special forces as 'his' they changed it to 'his or her'.

basically after their editing the article makes me look like a dumbass, Im kinda pissed right now!

Here it is:

http://www.thebreeze.org/2007/03-19/op4.html

[The Reaper]

Well... whoever published what I wrote must be half retarded.

They cut out my question to you and your responses...and wrongly edited my words so when I refer to special forces as 'his' they changed it to 'his or her'.

basically after their editing the article makes me look like a dumbass, Im kinda pissed right now!

Here it is:

http://www.thebreeze.org/2007/03-19/op4.html

Completely predictable.

That is why I stay out of those foodfights.

They make the rules and they can edit what you said taking the least significant material that supports their positions.

Frankly, I do not want to be involved in their discussions via quotes or redirects attracting kids with no real world experience or sense of realpolitik to this site. Let them live in their own little worlds and design a utopia, right up till they get slapped in the face hard by a great big steaming chunk of reality.

TR

[cadete]

Well about Guatemalan i could be of help on the subject, the problem with States and Guatemala it was the interests of the US in here, They had a lot of companies making bussiness in Guatemala and back in the 1954 with a social democrat goverment of Arbenz he made an reform taking some of the United States Fruit Company fields, then the CIA made an invasion army to take down Arbenz. This is how all started, Actually our Special Forces Called Kaibiles are based on Army Rangers and trained by US Special Forces back in the 80's and right now as a fact we have here an ODA training Guatemalan SF Counter Terrorism Unit.

United States just as always its looking at their interests, i feel great to be a fully democratic person who believes in it, im currently on college and i hope someday to inmigrate to the States and join the Army and hopefully someday become a Quiet Professional to fight for Democracy on countries without it.

[The Reaper]

Well about Guatemalan i could be of help on the subject, the problem with States and Guatemala it was the interests of the US in here, They had a lot of companies making bussiness in Guatemala and back in the 1954 with a social democrat goverment of Arbenz he made an reform taking some of the United States Fruit Company fields, then the CIA made an invasion army to take down Arbenz. This is how all started, Actually our Special Forces Called Kaibiles are based on Army Rangers and trained by US Special Forces back in the 80's and right now as a fact we have here an ODA training Guatemalan SF Counter Terrorism Unit.

United States just as always its looking at their interests, i feel great to be a fully democratic person who believes in it, im currently on college and i hope someday to inmigrate to the States and join the Army and hopefully someday become a Quiet Professional to fight for Democracy on countries without it.

A good start for you would be following the instructions in your registration message and reading the rules and stickies before posting further.

TR

[swpa19]

Cadete:

Im a fairly new person to this site, as being such, perhaps I can save you some embarrassment. You would be advised to do a few simple things. Follow instructions given you and observe before posting. Go back to the particular thread you plan on posting to, and see what others have said. Get a feel for the intelligence and background of those that made previous posts. AND take advice given as tuition to your education on this site.

Now, this is just an Ole Guys point of view. Remember anything you may have learned, someone here has probably been instumental in making it happen.



Something my dear departed father used to tell me: "Remember boy, you didnt write the book. Your just turnin the pages".

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

On a recent visit to Guatemala, I didn't notice anything that bad there. I thought it was doing pretty good for a country in that region. But then I'm not living there either! ;)

[bailaviborita]

Was interesting in that girl's article that she said that an American company kept 90% of its profits. I imagine most foreign companies in the US keep 100% of their profits. Wouldn't this make US companies altruistic? I guess the American company would be thought better of if they packed up and left and those workers went unemployed? Bet none of those workers are complaining...

The only bad thing I think the US is doing to Guatemala is the Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton-inspired protectionism that is keeping their sugar out of our country due to the Dems curbing CAFTA. But, hey- we should all be happy illegal workers cross the border to work on our sugar farms instead of staying and growing sugar down there, right?

[RT AXE 10]

Guatemala,

Another LatAm country struggling to keep up with the demands of life. We have done a hell of a lot to bring Guatemala out of the iron age and into the space age by passing the atomic and nuclear ages. Aside from it's sea food, agricultural produce and it's touristic remnants of the past Mayan civilization there is not much in the way of resources for the locals to prosper on, so corruption is up, and at every level. Meanwhile, other better off countries are poised to take advantage of the poverty and procure the few remaining resources availlable for a hand full of change which will last a day or two. Now with the population growth of Guatemala out of controll, Where will they be, 5, 10, 20 years down the time road? NAFTA is an important part of their future, as purchasing and procuring items of neccessity cost 2 to 10 times more than in the US... But where is NAFTA? stuck in Mexico somewhere... With this in mind, can you imagine how the power plays from the different factions and segments of the entire social structure come into play. How should help/support be rendered?
A tourist travels to Guatemala, hears a story form an underpaid native Guatemalan from an unknown faction, then writes a book on how America ruined that country... excuse me....Stand in the door!!!!!!!!