View Full Version : Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name
SouthernDZ
03-02-2007, 11:03
Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name
March 2, 2007
A federal appeals court in Washington cleared the way for the U.S. Navy to dismiss Chaplain Gordon Klingenschmitt, who earned the ire of his commanders with his prayers "in Jesus' name". His 16-year career officially ended at midnight Thursday.
"It's now official and final. Yesterday I was booted from the Navy. As of midnight last night, I became a civilian. Yesterday, I received orders to separate by 1 Mar 07, so I signed the DD 214 ending my 16 year military career," Klingenschmitt said.
He told reporters that to further punish him, he was informed that the chief of naval operations had contacted the Conservative Political Action Conference, where Klingenschmitt had been invited to deliver the invocation Thursday night, and had his invitation rescinded, Christian Newswire reported Friday.
Klingenschmitt was listed on the CPAC Program to deliver the invocation at a conference where Vice President Dick Cheney was scheduled to be, but was 'disinvited'. "The Navy is embarrassed that I might have prayed in Jesus' name in front of the Vice President!"
Earlier, Klingenschmitt told reporters that the costs of the battle have been high but worthwhile, because Congress has already instructed that the policy be rescinded, and other chaplains will have the freedom that Klingenschmitt sought.
"My sacrifice purchased their freedom. My conscience is clear, the fight was worth it, and I'd do it all again," he said. Klingenschmitt ran into trouble when he publicly prayed 'in Jesus name' during a rally for embattled Judge Roy Moore at the White House last winter. Judge Moore was removed from his office when he refused to follow a federal court order he considered unlawful: to remove a Ten Commandments monument from public property.
The Navy convicted Chaplain Klingenschmitt of failing to follow a lawful order because his superior didn't want him praying "in Jesus' name". But when Congress got word of Klingenshcmitt's fine of $3,000, it caught their attention, and they ordered the Navy to remove the limitation and allow chaplains to pray as their 'conscience dictates'.
Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name
March 2, 2007
The Navy convicted Chaplain Klingenschmitt of failing to follow a lawful order because his superior didn't want him praying "in Jesus' name". But when Congress got word of Klingenshcmitt's fine of $3,000, it caught their attention, and they ordered the Navy to remove the limitation and allow chaplains to pray as their 'conscience dictates'.
Am I missing something here? If congress lifted the limitation; why is he still being punished?:confused:
This is the same kind of stuff which is the basis for the book, Boots on the Ground. The author's contention is that the chaplains are hamstrung by rules limiting what spiritual guidance they provide and access to the front lines. If some in America would have their way, the office of Chaplain would be eliminated completely. Of course those folks are not the ones in harms way.
I have no problems with Atheists. What a man believes is his own business. However, I do have a problem when the very few trying to dictate to the many the manner in which they worship and any attempts to limit the spiritual provisions for our troops.
However, I do have a problem when the very few trying to dictate to the many the manner in which they worship and any attempts to limit the spiritual provisions for our troops.
I see this as a left wing vs. right wing thing. Call it culture war,whatever. The wonderful progressive left wants to take us to new and better ground while the right sees where we come from and what/who made us great as a nation and says no thanks to the liberal. My .02.
Ret10Echo
03-02-2007, 12:23
Extract from the Preface of Macniavellis Art of War
Many, Lorenzo, have held and still hold the opinion, that there is nothing which has less in common with another, and that is so dissimilar, as civilian life is from the military. Whence it is often observed, if anyone designs to avail himself of an enlistment in the army, that he soon changes, not only his clothes, but also his customs, his habits, his voice, and in the presence of any civilian custom, he goes to pieces; for I do not believe that any man can dress in civilian clothes who wants to be quick and ready for any violence; nor can that man have civilian customs and habits, who judges those customs to be effeminate and those habits not conducive to his actions; nor does it seem right to him to maintain his ordinary appearance and voice who, with his beard and cursing, wants to make other men afraid: which makes such an opinion in these times to be very true. But if they should consider the ancient institutions, they would not find matter more united, more in conformity, and which, of necessity, should be like to each other as much as these (civilian and military); for in all the arts that are established in a society for the sake of the common good of men, all those institutions created to (make people) live in fear of the laws and of God would be in vain, if their defense had not been provided for and which, if well arranged, will maintain not only these, but also those that are not well established. And so (on the contrary), good institutions without the help of the military are not much differently disordered than the habitation of a superb and regal palace, which, even though adorned with jewels and gold, if it is not roofed over will not have anything to protect it from the rain. And, if in any other institutions of a City and of a Republic every diligence is employed in keeping men loyal, peaceful, and full of the fear of God, it is doubled in the military; for in what man ought the country look for greater loyalty than in that man who has to promise to die for her? In whom ought there to be a greater love of peace, than in him who can only be injured by war? In whom ought there to be a greater fear of God than in him who, undergoing infinite dangers every day, has more need for His aid? If these necessities in forming the life of the soldier are well considered, they are found to be praised by those who gave the laws to the Commanders and by those who were put in charge of military training, and followed and imitated with all diligence by others.
Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name
Sir,
Amazing that this was posted today...today my father was telling me old tales , that I had never heard before, of His time in the Navy. This story co-incides with what he told me, so I guess some things do not change. It is aparent that PC is still alive and well. :mad:
(note:WE are not PC in my family)
Congress can pass all the laws it see's fit, but in the Navy, "they" deal with thier own, for good and bad. :confused:
Holly
Can the Muslim clerics in the military still use Mohammads name when praying?
Just wondering.
blue
SouthernDZ, Please make sure you attribute your source of news articles.
---break---
I personally believe that he and others should be able to pray in Jesus' name because that is how Christians should pray.
The article SouthernDZ posted is not the whole truth...no one is booted from the military as quickly as the article leads you to believe. Yes...he prayed in Jesus' name and should, but the real reason he ran into trouble with the Navy is not reported properly in the posted article. He disobeyed an order to not wear his uniform while publicly protesting the Navy's policy over using non-denominational prayers only.
...but the real reason he ran into trouble with the Navy is not reported properly in the posted article. He disobeyed an order to not wear his uniform while publicly protesting the Navy's policy over using non-denominational prayers only.
Sir,
That fact has me scratching my head as to how the United States Navy, a branch of Our Armed Forces, could do such a thing?
I suppose I am too old fashioned. :confused:
Holly
He disobeyed an order to not wear his uniform while publicly protesting the Navy's policy over using non-denominational prayers only.
He was hired to do the job of a Christian minister just like the Muslim clerics we seek out for hire as a Chaplin. If he is a Christian minister he is required by his faith to disobey an order that he believes would conflict with the duty he owes to God- just a Muslim would / should.
That being said, our nation must make a choice, Jesus, Allah, or a secular view. All are mutually exclusive of the other because each of the big three religions claim the only way to God and the secular view denies the big three.
If our people choose the secular way - why do you need a Chaplin anyway? Spend the money on a Psychiatric counselor instead - we can't ride the fence.
(Joshua CH.24)
Military law is very clear about not wearing your uniform when participating in "public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or public demonstrations", except when it is authorized. He didn't have the authorization when he demonstrated in uniform and this is where he crossed the line, not by using Jesus' name in prayer. Always consider your source...which SouthernDZ left off of the article he posted and do your research before spouting off.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-02-2007, 15:22
Military law is very clear about not wearing your uniform when participating in "public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or public demonstrations", except when it is authorized. He didn't have the authorization when he demonstrated in uniform and this is where he crossed the line, not by using Jesus' name in prayer. Always consider your source...which SouthernDZ left off of the article he posted and do your research before spouting off.
Concurr completly. This whack job disobeyed a lawful order. It is quite simple, you are in the military or you are not in the military. You follow military law and the terms of your commission/contract or you follow whatever other pursuits you wish outside of the military. Chaplains may feel that they have devine guidance and that their heart lies with whatever faith and god to which they are devoted but when they are in the military their 4th POC belongs to the chain of command when it comes to following orders and adhering to the rules that are devined to establish good order and discipline.
Always consider your source...which SouthernDZ left off of the article he posted and do your research before spouting off.
Sir,
NOT trying to "spout" here. I am genuinely curious, and applogize if I mis-spoke and caused offense. :o
Holly
Sir,
NOT trying to "spout" here. I am genuinely curious, and applogize if I mis-spoke and caused offense. :o
Holly
Likewise Gents.
Military law is very clear about not wearing your uniform when participating in "public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or public demonstrations", except when it is authorized. He didn't have the authorization when he demonstrated in uniform and this is where he crossed the line, not by using Jesus' name in prayer. Always consider your source...which SouthernDZ left off of the article he posted and do your research before spouting off.
point taken.
Chaplains may feel that they have devine guidance and that their heart lies with whatever faith and god to which they are devoted but when they are in the military their 4th POC belongs to the chain of command when it comes to following orders and adhering to the rules that are devined to establish good order and discipline.
Sir,
With all due respect, following this line of reason a committed Christian Minister should then never serve as a Chaplin - unless he feels called to be Chaplin for the military first and then a Christian Minister second. It was Jesus that said a man cannot serve two masters.
With all due respect, following this line of reason a committed Christian Minister should then never serve as a Chaplin - unless he feels called to be Chaplin for the military first and then a Christian Minister second.
And I must respectfully disagree. Take it from me, the church is not the only place folks can hear the "good news."
There is many a bar, garden, park etc...IMHO. Depending on how it is followed through.
Holly:)
SouthernDZ
03-02-2007, 16:06
Sorry I left off the attribution; this was Reuter's (World) News Service, 28 February. I posted it without any personal comment in order to initiate conversation without any slant one way or the other; but here's my two cents.
Over the years I've seen refusal to wear a blue helmet, deploy in harm's way and now overt involvement in PACs despite orders not to do so. While you may find an order objectionable, if it is lawful - follow the lawful order. The order was clear and unambiguous; he chose not to follow it and he's fortunate all he had in his future was a discharge. The discipline of the military is not for everyone.
Administrator: sorry once again.
And I must respectfully disagree. Take it from me, the church is not the only place folks can hear the "good news."
There is many a bar, garden, park etc...IMHO. Depending on how it is followed through.
Holly:)
Agree completely.
He obviously felt muzzled to the point that he couldn’t do his job due to what I would call "P.C. regulations” that we all work under in America today. I’m thinking that this man felt his religious principles trumped his military duty – therefore he should not be in the military (much akin to a conscientious objector)
Corporations don’t hire Ministers so this type of conflict doesn’t occur. The military does, thus setting the stage for conflict of interest.(BTW, what became of the Muslim chaplain that got into hot water in Gitmo?)
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-02-2007, 19:48
following this line of reason a committed Christian Minister should then never serve as a Chaplin - unless he feels called to be Chaplin for the military first and then a Christian Minister second..
Right, and what's your point? Is this clown an officer, does he have a commission, is he not responsible to obey the lawful orders of those appointed
over him, etc, etc, etc? If a committed Christian Minister cannot live by those tenets you are absolutely correct-there is no place for him in the military. As a matter of fact anyone who has aspirations of serving in the military that has a personal conflict with living up to the oath of office that they take, which as I recall is without reservation or hesitation, should serve whatever group of folks, country, mankind, or cult in some other profession. You cannot have one set of standards for one officer because he wears the cloth and another because he does not.
Right, and what's your point? .
Sir,
I'm actually discovering my point as I go with help from you and others in this forum that share of their time, wisdom, experience, and knowledge. A sincere thanks to you.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-02-2007, 20:15
Sir,
I'm actually discovering my point as I go with help from you and others in this forum that share of their time, wisdom, experience, and knowledge. A sincere thanks to you.
Okay, look-perhaps my response was a little harsh and out of line. I have dealt with folks of the cloth and other technical professionals who felt that they were special because of their calling or MOS and when they found out that they too had to perform duties and responsibilities expected of them by regulation and directive the excuse was, but I am a ....... (fill in the blank). The bottom line with me, and perhaps it is only me, that everyone is a soldier first and a "whatever" next and as soldiers they have sworn oaths to perform as such. For some reason, some, not all, feel that they are civilians in uniform and the military rules just don't make sense or fit their chosen path so they conform to whatever "higher calling or standard" that they see fit. Well that never washed with me. I do not wish to belabor the point, I am too damn old to change my point of view on this, and you are welcome to your point of view or position. I have no corner on the market in wisdom, experience or knowledge.
I have no corner on the market in wisdom, experience or knowledge.
Yeah, but ya got a lot more than me......and class, true class. It’s an honor and privilege to be able to learn from you sir. Thanks again.
I have dealt with folks of the cloth and other technical professionals who felt that they were special because of their calling or MOS and when they found out that they too had to perform duties and responsibilities expected of them by regulation and directive the excuse was, but I am a ....... (fill in the blank).
Why do Doctors always fill this profile? Maybe it was the MASH TV-show thing.
I have run into lots of MP's with the same attitude.
I think the one that floored me the most was this E-4 driver/administered assistant of a Signal BN Commander...(She got this job straight out of AIT at her first duty assignment) and she thought she spoke with the authority of a LTC, she also thought her sh** didn’t stink as well. But the most amazing part was the number of idiots that actually played into her game.
Sir,
I'm actually discovering my point as I go with help from you and others in this forum that share of their time, wisdom, experience, and knowledge. A sincere thanks to you.
Thanks for acknowledging that you didn't know what your point was when originally posting. In the future let others that are SMEs and know the full situation make their point so we can learn from them, not pointlessly talking about things and wasting other folks time by needing to come in and setting things straight. Discussion is one thing, but figuring out what your point is many non-quality posts later is not what we're looking for on our forums.
BTW, what became of the Muslim chaplain that got into hot water in Gitmo?
Another example...use a search engine / news search and be informative instead of wanting someone else to find out for you. We're not here to do your homework. Let's try to keep posts quality and not quantity!
incommin
03-03-2007, 18:25
I think a point has been missed. Military Chaplains are required in most cases to give non denominational services. One Chaplain is often providing spiritual guidance to a variety of religious believers.
I have been to services in the field where the Chaplain asked the faith of all those there, and after getting an answer, provided a service that would have made any old Southern Baptist minister proud.
Jim
Peregrino
03-03-2007, 19:12
The military chaplains I've met have performed their duties (all of them - not just providing religious services) with professionalism and dedication to whatever their religious calling happened to be, without fanfare or theatrics. My favorite was LTC Strange; SWCS IIRC. He had no problems describing himself as an "Army Green, Protestant" (one each, definitely non-standard issue). He ministered to everyone IAW their needs; didn't even have a problem tending to us "secular humanists". I met him when I was forced to take a second religion class at Campbell University. He impressed me enough that when it was time to marry the girlfriend I tracked him down and asked him to do the dirty deed. Somehow I doubt he would be sympathetic to the plight of this Navy Chaplain. Peregrino
The Reaper
03-03-2007, 20:22
Neither would my favorite, Chaplain Dennington.
TR
Roger. Wilco.
Pick one; you can't use both:
Roger - Transmission received and understood.
Wilco - Transmission received, understood and I will comply with the instructions provided.
Monsoon65
03-04-2007, 21:50
Pick one; you can't use both:
Roger - Transmission received and understood.
Wilco - Transmission received, understood and I will comply with the instructions provided.
At one point in my military career, that would have cost me 1000 pushups.
Ranks up there with "over and out", a phrase that makes me cringe when I hear it.
At one point in my military career, that would have cost me 1000 pushups.
Ranks up there with "over and out", a phrase that makes me cringe when I hear it.
:(
That like hearing a call for a radio check - standard reply is 2 by 2 by 2 -
Too loud - Too clear - Too often.
BT
Spartan359
03-06-2007, 07:36
Interesting. In the four years I spent on the Kitty Hawk not once was there a complaint against the Chaplins prayers. Everynight before lights out he would come on the 1MC and say a prayer. "In Jesus name we pray" was used often if I'm not mistaken.
Sweetbriar
03-11-2007, 00:29
I followed Klingenschmitt's story for awhile and really haven't had any sympathy for him, although I actually am a Bible believing Jesus-praying freak myself. My opinion is formed from observing Navy command culture as well as Christian lay leadership in the Navy.
Klingenschmitt never understood his mission as servant to all, regardless of their particular view of faith. He was offended that access to the position of chaplain required a far more circumspect attitude than he seems to be remotely capable of. The instant he took his complaints outside his command chain he made a major league career error, and taking it to the media put him in full bore rebellion.
In this case, offense and rebellion are also theological/spiritual terms. The guy is full of himself. If you want to give your life away so that others might know the love of God, then honor them that have authority over you, be very modest in your view of yourself, and be diligent to buy up every opportunity (pay the price required). It doesn't matter if you are on a mission field in the heart of Islam, the deck of a ship, or the breakroom.
The Navy is better off without him and I hope he didn't cause too much damage on the way out. IMO.
Okay, look-perhaps my response was a little harsh and out of line. I have dealt with folks of the cloth and other technical professionals who felt that they were special because of their calling or MOS and when they found out that they too had to perform duties and responsibilities expected of them by regulation and directive the excuse was, but I am a ....... (fill in the blank). The bottom line with me, and perhaps it is only me, that everyone is a soldier first and a "whatever" next and as soldiers they have sworn oaths to perform as such. For some reason, some, not all, feel that they are civilians in uniform and the military rules just don't make sense or fit their chosen path so they conform to whatever "higher calling or standard" that they see fit. Well that never washed with me. I do not wish to belabor the point, I am too damn old to change my point of view on this, and you are welcome to your point of view or position. I have no corner on the market in wisdom, experience or knowledge.Stay safe.
Makes me wonder what 3 yrs., and 33 posts ago might turn up.
Prayer -
Christian, Hewbrew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddha, US Chaplains serve to give support and comfort to Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. I've heard Chaplains call for God's blessing by calling him Father, Lord, Allah, Jesus, Elohim, and Jehovah.
I've heard Chaplains give entire talks/sermons in native languages, bless the sacrament, perform baptisms, marriages, last rites and funeral services.
I beleive a soldier need not have to choose between being a soldier or a follower of his faith, our enemies curtainly do not. An American serviceman is capable of doing both.
Is one's faith only practiced in chapels, temples and such? If it is, then we are hipocrites. Are we not encouraged to open our hearts, "speak as one man speaketh with another" while talking in suplication with our Father in Heaven? Must we only read, pre-prepared prayers, reviewed by committee, or can we not kneel in solemn prayer beside out bunks, with our families or together before an Op? Can we gather together after an Exfil and thank our God for a safe return?
Army regs. allow me to wear my Class A uniform in place of a civilian suit while attending a social function, religious service or "my buddy's wedding". I am a US fighting man. My enemies do not care what tab I have or don't have, they do not care if I'm a beleiver or not. They want my destruction.
Knowing the task at hand, I will use whatever weapons and means at my disposal to protect and serve my fellow team mates, my country, my God.
I have served in harms way, I have felt His divine province in my protection, I recognize His hand in all I do.
Almighty GOD, Who art the Author of liberty and the Champion of the oppressed, hear our prayer.
We, the men of Special Forces, acknowledge our dependence upon Thee in the preservation of human freedom.
Go with us as we seek to defend the defenseless and to free the enslaved.
May we ever remember that our nation, whose motto is "In God We Trust", expects that we shall acquit ourselves with honor, that we may never bring shame upon our faith, our families, or our fellow men.
Grant us wisdom from Thy mind, courage from Thine heart, strength from Thine arm, and protection by Thine hand.
It is for Thee that we do battle, and to Thee belongs the victor's crown.
For Thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory, forever.
Father, please watch over my little ones while I am away, may their dreams be filled with sweet memories of dad being home once more. See to their needs, let them know I am safe with my team. Thank you the warmth this night, the food we have. Bless this village, the women and child here, that they may sleep without fear of terror. See to the leaders of this land, allow your spirit to dwell here for a time. Bless and guide our elected leaders, bless the United States of America.
AMEN
Doo Hak 'eh hoodez gl"ee"da' nah 'ah baad di
1stindoor
12-21-2010, 08:08
Thanks for the bump WD, I too have no problem in professing my faith. But as the good COL pointed out I am also a Soldier. I have no found a problem being both.
craigepo
12-21-2010, 09:38
I often marvel at how chaplains and other persons performing a public prayer mess this up.
Last year, I was one of 5 chaplains for the Grand Lodge of Missouri. Of the five, there was myself(Lutheran), a Lutheran pastor, a Baptist, a Southern Baptist minister, and a Jewish rabbi. Our duties were to travel our piece of the state when the head dudes were around, and perform the prayers for whatever was going on.
One prerequisite for admission into a masonic lodge is a belief in God. Many are Christian, some Jewish. I presume there are some Muslims, although I have personally never met one. Nonetheless, there is always an interesting cross-section of religious beliefs at a Masonic function.
When performing a prayer at such a function, all present believe in God; not all believe in Christ. To finish a prayer with "in Jesus' name" forces a Jew to pray to someone he believes is a false prophet. Accordingly, Masonic prayers do not so end. (That Special Forces prayer above seemed very Masonic, by the way.)
Some present-day Christians have some heartache over such a prayer. Having memorized the Lord's prayer, I don't understand their consternation. When one reads the prayers and other like discussions from our country's Founding Fathers, much of the language found therein followed the Masonic idea discussed above.
1stindoor
12-21-2010, 09:53
Some present-day Christians have some heartache over such a prayer. Having memorized the Lord's prayer, I don't understand their consternation. When one reads the prayers and other like discussions from our country's Founding Fathers, much of the language found therein followed the Masonic idea discussed above.
The ending comes from John 14:13-14. Jesus says,
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
From the King James
There is a "belief" that anything asked in "his name" must be granted. I use it occasionally when I honestly feel that my prayers are not for me but for His kingdom.
craigepo
12-21-2010, 10:38
1stindoor:
I guess my question would be whether that ending is mandatory, as opposed to discretionary, to the point the chaplain must either disobey orders or his faith?
1stindoor
12-21-2010, 11:46
1stindoor:
I guess my question would be whether that ending is mandatory, as opposed to discretionary, to the point the chaplain must either disobey orders or his faith?
I would humbly offer that it is discretionary. I think the only ones that would take it as "mandatory" would be those of the fundamentalist persuasion.
I would humbly offer that it is discretionary. I think the only ones that would take it as "mandatory" would be those of the fundamentalist persuasion.
FYI - "He" taught, by way of example, when "those" around him asked, "Lord, teach us".
He said, "Pray as I do".
Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name; (address God)
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done,
in earth as it is in heaven. (recognize His purposes)
Give us this day our daily bread, (ask for our needs)
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.
(ask for foregiveness, a sign for humility)
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil. (His blessings)
For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen. (in His name)
I do not think the Lord ever intended that our prayers become repititious or religious. His ministry was about braking the bonds of religious crap. The exisitng leaders viewed the Lords ministry as rebelious and counter to their power base. The followers of Judah went to their leaders, who prayed for them, was their conduit, in short, controlled them, held those ancient text/scrolls close to their vests/robes.
When Jesus showed up, which was predicted, the leadership base viewed his arrival as a threat, the whole Joseph/Mary tax, have all male children killed thing.
At the age of 12, he was teaching the established religious leadership, he knew the text well, he was preparing for his ministry like all good young jewish boys, he started his ministry like all other rabiis at the age of 30. He knew his role. "Know thyself is the foundation of knowledge".
God gave the children of Israel the 10 Commandments, God then gave other commandments during the 40 years in the wilderess, and not until an entire generation had passed, did they find the promised land. In doing this no one entered the new place with "bad blood" in remembering Egypt, enslavement/occupation, civil order of law or rule. They were children in a new country.
When Jesus finally started his ministry, the group was quagmired in 1,000's of laws to include don't cook on the Sabeth, do not provide comfort on the sabeth, do not help your neighbor on the sabeth, etc.
When Jesus taughty with parables, the Good Samaritan as an example, he chose "Samaritan" with purpose. He did not say the Good Syrian, or the Good Roman, the Good Egyptian or Jew. The Samaritan was viewed as the lesser of all other ethnic groups, they were the lowest group on the ladder.
Him choosing Samaritan makes the lesson more valuable.
If the parable was told today, it might be more like the comedian who once said, "Boxing was a white man sport, followed by the black man who was followed by a Mexican. Once a Puerto Rican makes it to the top, look out, theres an American Indian about to kick his ass."
When Jesus said, "You can talk to God directly, he knows the status of even the smallest of birds, do you not think he knows your needs, go to him prayer". Once he did that, the plan was set in place to remove him from taking any more power and authority from the established leadership. They challenged him directly, siting the Law. He said, as Isaiah predicted, He would replace the Law.
I think Jesus has a great sense of humor, "Great are the words of Isaiah, look that's me talking to Isaiah, who is talking to you today, ha, ha. Today I give you a knew Law. Love God, love thy neighbor".
Simple to the point, that one simple passage encompass all other laws together. No other law falls outside of those two.
Keeping the 10 commandments becomes easier to understand, we keep those commandments - Honor God, no other Gods before, no false Gods, do not worship idols, TVs, strippers, booze, money, movie stars, politicans, celeberties, do not take my name in vain, etc.
Love your neighbor, do not steel, murder, commit adultry, lie, covet thy neighbors Harley Davidson, boat, truck, job etc.
Now we are commanded to help our neighbor get unstuck, find him a job, take his kids hunting when they are down range, remove the ox from the mud, visit the sick in the Nursing home, buy the old vet breakfast.
God is not lookig for perfection, he just holds high standards in behavior, do unto others.
I'm kind of going thru the same thing in my VFW post. Our Chaplain insists on ending every prayer "in Jesus name" We have Jews , Native Americans, and at least one Buddhist who are being made uncomfortable during the official post meetings. Most solve it by just not going to the meetings.
I've mentioned it to him as well as the officers, to no avail. He has a "Klingenschmidt" attitude.
It is divisive for no reason. The VFW ritual and Chaplains Handbook are ecumenical and should be read as written.
I have to decide if it is a hill I want to die on.
It is divisive for no reason. The VFW ritual and Chaplains Handbook are ecumenical and should be read as written.
I have to decide if it is a hill I want to die on.
Why? I mean why the Chaplain? Why him? Why not someone else? You for example, would you say something different?
Reading from an authorized committee driven book sounds a lot like agenda not prayer. "Now if I can just get the message changed, change direction, change meaning, change,..."
Dragbag036
12-21-2010, 14:36
Now we are commanded to help our neighbor get unstuck, find him a job, take his kids hunting when they are down range, remove the ox from the mud, visit the sick in the Nursing home, buy the old vet breakfast.
God is not lookig for perfection, he just holds high standards in behavior, do unto others.
WD,
I really like the way you have broken down these thoughts, as I also am not ashamed of my faith and my religion (Christianity), there is one thing that I believe people forget. It is not just about how good you are are and what you do for others, the Bible says Romans 10:9 (King James Version) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Lastly I will leave you Brothers with this passage to go along with what WD is speaking of
James 2:14-26 (New International Version, ©2010)
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
DB .00002 cents (I grew up in the church, my father being a Baptist minister is not what saves me, but he did raise me in the ways in which I should go) I am a QP, but I am also a Christian. I take pride and draw strength from that fact!
Gawd, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.
Richard :munchin
Peregrino
12-21-2010, 17:56
Gawd, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.
Richard :munchin
Amen!
greenberetTFS
12-21-2010, 18:05
Gawd, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.
Richard :munchin
:lifter
Big Teddy :munchin
Gawd, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.
Richard :munchin
I second that, Amen.
99meters
12-21-2010, 21:20
I would humbly offer that it is discretionary. I think the only ones that would take it as "mandatory" would be those of the fundamentalist persuasion.
I would humbly offer that it is not discretionary. Religion is about God, christianity is about Jesus. If you're not using the chain of command and going through Jesus to get to God you are not practicing christianity.
It is Jesus that conquered death; it is by Jesus sins are washed away and salvation gained, so if he says to pray to the God in his name then follow orders and do it.
1stindoor
12-22-2010, 08:44
Gawd, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.
Richard :munchin
You know what you get when you combine a dyslexic, agnostic, and an insomniac?
Someone who stays awake all night wondering if there truly is a Dog.
1stindoor
12-22-2010, 08:49
I would humbly offer that it is not discretionary. Religion is about God, christianity is about Jesus. If you're not using the chain of command and going through Jesus to get to God you are not practicing christianity.
It is Jesus that conquered death; it is by Jesus sins are washed away and salvation gained, so if he says to pray to the God in his name then follow orders and do it.
I refuse to get into a religious debate online. I am a confessed believer in Christ, I also use the King James as my sole Bible. I also come up short daily and ask forgiveness.
So I'll just accept your interpretation of that verse as your "order" ask if you also follow all of his other "orders" as well?
ZonieDiver
12-22-2010, 09:41
I just say "Lord" and let it go at that. "They" can figure out which one of "Them" I am speaking to at the moment - Holy Trinity and all.... :D
I would humbly offer that it is not discretionary. Religion is about God, christianity is about Jesus. If you're not using the chain of command and going through Jesus to get to God you are not practicing christianity.
It is Jesus that conquered death; it is by Jesus sins are washed away and salvation gained, so if he says to pray to the God in his name then follow orders and do it.
my·thol·o·gy (m-th l-j) n. pl. my·thol·o·gies. One religion's views of another's beliefs.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
craigepo
05-27-2011, 13:46
I thought this was an interesting epilogue to our recent discussion.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7583145.html
"Rainey's prayer, less than a page long, includes the recitation of the Lord's Prayer and closes with one reference to Jesus: "While respecting people of every faith today, it is in the name of Jesus Christ, the risen Lord, that I pray. Amen"