The disadvantaged

[incommin]

Questions.....

Whom or what are the disadvantaged????????

What does it take to classify someone as disadvantaged????

How should we define disadvantaged???


Jim

[TF Kilo]

Does a clinical diagnosis count?

[CPTAUSRET]

Jim:

I can't put a definition to your query...But, I believe "Conservatives", create the conditions which allow lazy, indolent people to fall into this category; which strangely enough, can only be defined (maybe felt, as in "I feel your pain!") by a "Liberal"!;)

[tk27]

In our country, in our world, or both?

[incommin]

Where ever by what ever standards!

Is disadvantaged in the eye of the beholder?????

Jim

[swatsurgeon]

definition= those that think they are and live that way...without attempting to change.

ss

[7624U]

Questions.....

Whom or what are the disadvantaged????????

What does it take to classify someone as disadvantaged????

How should we define disadvantaged???


Jim

18X coming to phase II SUT for the first time :D

[Prester John]

Regular Army guy coming off a deployment to SFAS... to compete against 18X's.:D

11A who went to Ranger school as a 2LT coming to Phase II to lead a bunch of 18X's who went to SOPC II.:D :eek:

:munchin

I'm going to see if I can get into my flame proof suit fast enough on this one.

Doug

[x SF med]

Regular Army guy coming off a deployment to SFAS... to compete against 18X's.:D

11A who went to Ranger school as a 2LT coming to Phase II to lead a bunch of 18X's who went to SOPC II.:D :eek:

I'm going to see if I can get into my flame proof suit fast enough on this one.

Doug

Dougie,
Shouldn't you be studying, or doing PT? Hmmmmmmmmmmm? Possibly in a hull defilade position to keep yourself protected from incomming fire? Low crawling through a swamp? Practicing Land Nav? Or asking if TS needs anything?:rolleyes:

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

definition= those that think they are and live that way...without attempting to change.

ss

That says it all! Nice summary swatsurgeon:lifter

[x SF med]

As Einstein said:
"In the midst of difficulty lies opportunity."

A disadvantage should only be a temporary setback, not a way of life, IMHO.

[The Reaper]

Regular Army guy coming off a deployment to SFAS... to compete against 18X's.:D

11A who went to Ranger school as a 2LT coming to Phase II to lead a bunch of 18X's who went to SOPC II.:D :eek:

:munchin

I'm going to see if I can get into my flame proof suit fast enough on this one.

Doug

Dougie, you are an officer?

Where is my counseling stick with the nail in it?

TR

[7624U]

As Gen. Anthony McAuliffe said:


"NUTS!"

[Team Sergeant]

definition= those that think they are and live that way...without attempting to change.

ss

Sounds like the democratic party........;)

[Roguish Lawyer]

I think incommin's question is a good one.

For me, the answer is relative and it depends on the context. For example, in a college environment, I would say that a kid who grew up in relative poverty and went to bad public schools is disadvantaged relative to a rich kid who went to Andover. Doesn't mean the "disadvantaged" kid can't outperform the other kid academically, but it probably does mean he has to work harder to do so.

:munchin

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I think incommin's question is a good one.

For me, the answer is relative and it depends on the context. For example, in a college environment, I would say that a kid who grew up in relative poverty and went to bad public schools is disadvantaged relative to a rich kid who went to Andover. Doesn't mean the "disadvantaged" kid can't outperform the other kid academically, but it probably does mean he has to work harder to do so.

:munchin

I really do not want to start dealing with liberal buzzwords, but if I am reading your text correctly-being disadvantaged and all-both these folks are in college. The only one that becomes disadvantaged here is the one that does not maximize his potential to achieve whatever is possible given the resources with which he has to work. As you say it is all relative and depends on context. I think not in terms of advantaged or disadvantaged because that implies external variables over which you have no control-in other words it deals with the cards with which you were dealt. I would prefer to deal in terms of opportunities lost or gained based on personal desire to achieve whatever level of success or mediocrity they so chose in a country where even illegal aliens have inalienable rights.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I really do not want to start dealing with liberal buzzwords, but if I am reading your text correctly-being disadvantaged and all-both these folks are in college. The only one that becomes disadvantaged here is the one that does not maximize his potential to achieve whatever is possible given the resources with which he has to work. As you say it is all relative and depends on context. I think not in terms of advantaged or disadvantaged because that implies external variables over which you have no control-in other words it deals with the cards with which you were dealt. I would prefer to deal in terms of opportunities lost or gained based on personal desire to achieve whatever level of success or mediocrity they so chose in a country where even illegal aliens have inalienable rights.

I think liberals try to use the term "disadvantaged" to justify social engineering to create "equality." For example, the poor are "disadvantaged" so they should get money or other benefits from the government.

I don't think the fact that one uses the term necessarily constitutes an endorsement of liberal policies. Sticking with the college context, for example, if a poor kid from the Bronx graduates at the top of his class at Harvard, that is a much bigger accomplishment than some CEO's kid who grew up on Park Avenue doing the same thing. As you say, some people start with certain advantages and some don't. That doesn't mean the government needs to level the playing field. And it also doesn't mean that people who lack relative advantage have good cause to throw up their hands and ask others to help them out.

[Guy]

If you think you are "disadvantaged"...

"Choose another career, hobby, sport, religion, etc. that you have an advantage at!"

Stay safe.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I don't remember where I heard this, but someone said once that no one is too poor to clean up their front yard.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I Sticking with the college context, for example, if a poor kid from the Bronx graduates at the top of his class at Harvard, that is a much bigger accomplishment than some CEO's kid who grew up on Park Avenue doing the same thing.

Now Roguish I was not calling you a liberal, I was refering to the favorite term of the liberals. Using your example, where is the disadvantage here? Seems to me that the CEO's kid disadvantaged himself if in fact graduating at the top of one's class is a measure of success or perhaps being poor is not a measure of intelligence and therefore not a disadvantage but something that makes you lean and hungry to succeed.:D That is why I like swatsurgeon's definition.

[Peregrino]

I'm with COL M; SS has a good working definition. Personally, I have serious problems with the PC concept of "disadvantaged". Too many parasites wearing the label with a perverse pride in their lack of achievement; too many liberal politicians eager to leverage their discontent into power. If you want a socialist workers paradise, as most of the professionally disadvantaged seem to be clamoring for, look elsewhere (or ellect Billery in 2008 - Nancy P. ought to have completed the groundwork by then). America is about equality of opportunity, NOT outcomes. IMHO we're better at it than any other country in the world. After all - where/how did Andrew Carnegie get his start? As for the disadvantaged - life's full of choices. Choose success or failure. Not choosing is a choice. My .02 - Peregrino

[spectre919]

Disadvantaged (n.), one who did not make lemonade.

I am disadvantaged playing basketball...I make up for it with all of the fouls!

[tk27]

Disadvantaged: Anyone born after the Baby Boomers, approximately $170,000 and growing, worth of disadvantage. Latest GAO report (http://fms.treas.gov/fr/06frusg/06frusg.pdf) has our federal fiscal exposures around $50 trillion. Thanks Mom and Dad!

The family and I looked over this report during the Holidays. My folks laughed and asked my sister and I how it felt to have "the worst parents ever", our retort was asking how they felt about the prospect of their grandchildren being sold to the Chinese.

[EX-Gold Falcon]

I believe a more suitable approach for defining what is disadvantaged, is to separate this term into both the external and internal.

External: a lack of material means i.e.; wealth, a substandard pre-college education, an unstable family, etc.

Internal: The Physically or mentally handicapped, physical size/stature & mental capabilities and furthermore, dyslexia and ADD would fall into this category.

So far, everyone has chosen to address the former, yet what about the latter?


Travis

[swatsurgeon]

I believe a more suitable approach for defining what is disadvantaged, is to separate this term into both the external and internal.

External: a lack of material means i.e.; wealth, a substandard pre-college education, an unstable family, etc.

Internal: The Physically or mentally handicapped, physical size/stature & mental capabilities and furthermore, dyslexia and ADD would fall into this category.

So far, everyone has chosen to address the former, yet what about the latter?


Travis


Actually, mine addresses both quite accurately: everyone, other than in coma, can make an internal decision to make a difference in their lives. So many 'free' opportunities if someone has the motivation/drive to accept them and run with them........
Little story time. When I was in medical school, there were a group of 'disadvantaged' students accepted into a 4, 5 or 6 year program to complete all requirements that us 'less disadvantaged' students HAD to do in 4 years. They were given daily tutors, allowed extra time for exams, could fail 2 classes and not be dismissed....we could not fail 1. They were given/spoon fed an entire medical education BUT had to return to their underprivileged area for 4 years as pay back. Most of them made it through in more than 4 years, had to take the major exams more than once and clinically on their rotations were ranked at the bottom of the class. All but 1 graduated. Not one of them went back to serve their towns and payback their debt, not 1 of them would I or my friends let treat a family member because the quality of their skills was so far below the 'standard', yet they now wear the label of "M.D." and have not changed the mentality of "I'm disadvantaged, therefore I am owed".
The entire spectrum of "underprivileged, disadvantaged, minority is 100% political and sociatal. If you beieve you are than you must be, therefore you are. What are each of us in our own minds: achievers in everyday life, motivated to do something constructive, worthwhile and positive for self and society.
Enough said.

ss

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I believe a more suitable approach for defining what is disadvantaged, is to separate this term into both the external and internal.

External: a lack of material means i.e.; wealth, a substandard pre-college education, an unstable family, etc.

Internal: The Physically or mentally handicapped, physical size/stature & mental capabilities and furthermore, dyslexia and ADD would fall into this category.

So far, everyone has chosen to address the former, yet what about the latter?


Travis

By those standards, both external and internal, I have been disadvantaged since birth. Well thank you very much for that, I just thought I was normal:D

[82ndtrooper]

I think liberals try to use the term "disadvantaged" to justify social engineering to create "equality." For example, the poor are "disadvantaged" so they should get money or other benefits from the government.

I don't think the fact that one uses the term necessarily constitutes an endorsement of liberal policies. Sticking with the college context, for example, if a poor kid from the Bronx graduates at the top of his class at Harvard, that is a much bigger accomplishment than some CEO's kid who grew up on Park Avenue doing the same thing. As you say, some people start with certain advantages and some don't. That doesn't mean the government needs to level the playing field. And it also doesn't mean that people who lack relative advantage have good cause to throw up their hands and ask others to help them out.

Socially speaking you hit the nail on the head ! .



The idea here is "redistribution of wealth" Usually in the form of tax hikes. No doubt, those hikes hit the rich and are targeted for utopian welfare programs to the "Poor" "Poor" can defined many way's, but in the case of larger politics, it's generally the minorities, not Unlce Bob who just lost his job after 20 years at the local industrial plant. In other words, if you want to be qualified for the democratic utopia, start taking drugs, do not apply for work, and restore your living conditions to that of a third world nation house hold.

Plenty of "Disadvantaged" individuals have in fact made it big, contributed to society, and over come obstacles that most of us have never faced. What's the difference in that person and the street hustler ?

"Two twin boys that grew up with an alcoholic father were asked, how did you turn out the way that you did ? They both replied with the same answer...........................with a father like mine, what else could I have done............one son was a Doctor at University of Cincinnati, the other a burn out living in a homeless shelter with drug and alchohol addiction"

[lksteve]

you are holding a pair of twos across the table from a full house...

you brought a knife to a gun fight...

you think you are...

and if you mean disadvantaged and forget the 'd'..

[x SF med]

Internal: The Physically or mentally handicapped, physical size/stature & mental capabilities and furthermore, dyslexia and ADD would fall into this category.

Travis

Travis-

My dad is left handed and dyslexic - he also graduated cum laude from Colgate with a double major in Economics and English, became an AF pilot and flight instructor, was a successful corporate executive, and does absolutely amazing hand cut inlay and veneer work to repair antique furniture as a retirement career/hobby/avocation.

He taught me that there are no true disadvantages, just challenges to be overcome. Any time you whine about being disadvantaged, you haven't really surveyed the situation and prepared your contingencies.

[smanders]

From X-SF_MED
He taught me that there are no true disadvantages, just challenges to be overcome. Any time you whine about being disadvantaged, you haven't really surveyed the situation and prepared your contingencies.

Sounds like model advice for the rest of us dads.

[echoes]

As for the disadvantaged - life's full of choices. Choose success or failure. Not choosing is a choice. My .02 - Peregrino

Sir,

After having read all the responses, I find yours the most acturate for my humble .02.

I have personal knowledge of someone, who by "Standards" is called disadvantaged because they are "mentally & physically disabled."
(cannot walk, talk, or see)

The interesting thing is, this person does not see themselves as "disadvantaged", rather, they see themselves as having more challenges to overcome.

After having spent time around those folks, it seems to me that soceity puts on the label, ( in certain cases), not the individual. And how wrong soceity is.

[82ndtrooper]

Carlos Moleda, Navy SEAL with ST-4 was paralyzed from the waste down after taking hits to the spine from PDF soldiers AK's at Patilla Airfield, Panama during operations "Just Cause" He's not considering himself "disadvantaged"

Story here

http://www.challengedathletes.org/athletes_stories/Carlos_Moleda.htm

U.S. Army Major David Rozelle returns to duty as below the knee amputee.

Story here

http://www.challengedathletes.org/athletes_stories/David_Rozelle.htm



Both of these men have taken major "Disadvantages" and made them "Advantages" to themselves and others.

[incommin]

There are some individuals with real disadvantages; severe mental problems would be one.......

But for the most part, is there a general agreement or thought that the majority of "disadvantaged" are the individuals who think of themselves as disadvantaged and us it as a crutch..........


Jim

[CPTAUSRET]

There are some individuals with real disadvantages; severe mental problems would be one.......

But for the most part, is there a general agreement or thought that the majority of "disadvantaged" are the individuals who think of themselves as disadvantaged and us it as a crutch..........


Jim


Jim:

My wife has spent over 30 years doing scientific research in order to help the first group...I agree with the analysis of the second group.

[tk27]

My wife has spent over 30 years doing scientific research in order to help the first group...I agree with the analysis of the second group.
Sir, What do you and your wife think of positive psychology, the study of optimal human functioning? In particular the concept of psychological resilience, the positive capacity to cope with stress and catastrophe.

But for the most part, is there a general agreement or thought that the majority of "disadvantaged" are the individuals who think of themselves as disadvantaged and us it as a crutch..........
I would agree to a certain extent yes. However, do you think people who could not identify, and thereby could not correct or adapt a disadvantage, are indeed "disadvantaged"?

One of the most interesting things I read last year was an article called Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments (http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/unskilled.html). It concluded with:

In sum, we present this article as an exploration into why people tend to hold overly optimistic and miscalibrated views about themselves. We propose that those with limited knowledge in a domain suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach mistaken conclusions and make regrettable errors, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it.
Is this the real disadvantage?

[Peregrino]

One of the most interesting things I read last year was an article called Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments (http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/unskilled.html).

Sounds like a description of the average tenured GS middle manager. They seem to function just fine in their own lives. It's everybody around them that suffers. :munchin Peregrino

[incommin]

Jim:

My wife has spent over 30 years doing scientific research in order to help the first group...I agree with the analysis of the second group.

May the gods that be, bless your wife for her labors!

Jim

[echoes]

Quote: In sum, we present this article as an exploration into why people tend to hold overly optimistic and miscalibrated views about themselves. We propose that those with limited knowledge in a domain suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach mistaken conclusions and make regrettable errors, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it.

IMO, if a person buys in to this theory, then they deserve whatever mediocrity they attain, because they can use this type of thinking as a scape goat.

No matter where you start on the racetrack, you can win, you just have to stay focused, believe in yourself, and never, ever quit.

Holly

[tk27]

IMO, if a person buys in to this theory, then they deserve whatever mediocrity they attain, because they can use this type of thinking as a scape goat.
The thing is that they are too incompetent to recognize their failure, let alone scape goat it.

[CPTAUSRET]

May the gods that be, bless your wife for her labors!

Jim

Nancy was awarded the "NMS" in 2000, consequently we spent two days in the White House, the second day we spent 45 minutes in the Oval Office w/Pres Clinton...I utilized my opportunity to speak frankly with that man!

My writeup is on here somewhere, but we are in Glasgow at the moment running late, and I don't have time to do a search.