SFCDQC Questions

[Robertson]

Hello gentlemen,

As I previously have stated on SOCNET, (I will attach the link at the end of this thread) I will be attending Pre-Scuba 16MAY-27MAY. Being that I complete Pre-Scuba, on the 31MAY I will attend SFCDQC and the scheduled graduation date is 02JUL. I am here to ask questions on specific tasks as they are unclear and I hope some of you if not most can guide me so I can train to the standards. Currently on the other site, my first set of questions was answered.

Questions that I still have are as follows:

Currently the one event that is kicking my butt while practicing is treading water for two minutes with my hands and ears out. I can tread the water for two minutes, but once I reach the 1:15 mark I am beginning to struggle. Now, one of my friends goes down to the pool with me in the morning and afternoon. He's been trying to teach me the eggbeater method but I cannot get it down. He can tread water for two minutes no problem. Is there another method to practice - or do you recommend I keep practicing?

For the Weight Belt Swim is says that the UDT recovery stroke is the most common used. What is it?

Underwater Knot Tying. Do you have to tie all your knots in one breath? Or do you tie your knots one at a time or as many as you can? On www.specialoperations.com they have a section where you can view videos and they have knot tying - in which they tie one knot at a time. I am not sure if this footage was taken at the Keys.

Surface Swim. What do you wear, and is there a specific type of stroke or method during this swim?

Thank you for your time,

-Robertson


The website to SOCNET thread:

SF Scuba School (http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=36017)

[NousDefionsDoc]

Mr. Robertson,
I can help you with the treading of water. The key is to relax. This is true with almost any water-involved activity. If you fight the water, you will not do well. You should be able to tread water for 2 hours, not 2 minutes, as there is very little physical exertion involved when done properly. The way I do it is slowly scissor kick and wave arms in front, only when needed and just enough to raise the breathing apparatus (mouth and nose) above the water.

It sounds like you are fighting against the water. Just relax.

[Robertson]

NDD,

I can tread water for hours if I can use my hands, its when the hands come out of the water that I have trouble and feel like my legs are becoming rocks. I usually start to struggle once my muscles tense up usually around 1:15-1:35


-Robertson

[NousDefionsDoc]

NDD, not sir. Ahh. You can't use your hands. But same applies. You said it yourself, "When my muscles tense up." You have to relax. Anyway, just wait, somebody with much more experience in the water will be along.

[Robertson]

NDD,

I don't know if they are tensing up from being tense myself or they are tenseing up from the way I am treading.


-Robertson

[The Reaper]

I think I will wait till he passes pre-SCUBA before I start dispensing a lot of advice about the CDQC.

I can guarantee that if you are so uncomfortable in the water that treading water for 2 minutes tires you, you are almost certainly going to fail to complete pre-SCUBA satisfactorily. Take NDD's advice and conquer your fear, or it will overwhelm you in the stress events, if not before.

You may want to consider trading for a slot to Airborne or Ranger School rather than the CDQC. The water is cold and unforgiving.

Good luck.

TR

[Robertson]

Sir,

I can tread water for 2 minutes. My technique on treading needs work other than this I feel comfortable in the water.

I have a schedule, which is based off the hours the pool is open.

Tuesdays I'll swim only using a snorkel and a mask and can not at any time touch the outside of the pool, and I wont take off the mask or snorkel at anytime unless I’m practicing clearing the mask. Tuesdays I'm in the pool 0500-0630 then after classes from 1530-17:30.

Wednesdays I have SCUBA lessons to get certified and I'm in the pool from 1530-1730.

Thursdays I'm in the pool 0500-0630 and I swim with fins, snorkel, and a mask and practice swimming distance and underwater as well. Then later around 1530-1730 I'm down practicing again.

Fridays I wear no equipment and practice drown proofing from 1530-1730.

Saturday I practice the subsurface 50M swim, clump retrieval, 500M swim, and knot tying.

Sunday is the day I practice all of the events and see which I have improved in.

I need to add CROSSOVERS to everyday - anyone have any recommendations of how many I should do?

I have three days between pre-scuba and CDQC.

Thank you for the advice,

-Robertson

[NousDefionsDoc]

Mr. Robertson, my Brother with Gills is here to help you. His name is Matchanu and he is an expert on the subject. Mind your manners, he eats ROTC cadets for lunch. LOL

[Matchanu]

Originally posted by Robertson


Currently the one event that is kicking my butt while practicing is treading water for two minutes with my hands and ears out. I can tread the water for two minutes, but once I reach the 1:15 mark I am beginning to struggle. Now, one of my friends goes down to the pool with me in the morning and afternoon. He's been trying to teach me the eggbeater method but I cannot get it down. He can tread water for two minutes no problem. Is there another method to practice - or do you recommend I keep practicing?

For the Weight Belt Swim is says that the UDT recovery stroke is the most common used. What is it?

Underwater Knot Tying. Do you have to tie all your knots in one breath? Or do you tie your knots one at a time or as many as you can? On www.specialoperations.com they have a section where you can view videos and they have knot tying - in which they tie one knot at a time. I am not sure if this footage was taken at the Keys.

Surface Swim. What do you wear, and is there a specific type of stroke or method during this swim?

Thank you for your time,

-Robertson


The website to SOCNET thread:

SF Scuba School (http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=36017)



The egg beater is like trying to ride an unvisible bicycle with bad hemmoriods and holding in a big poo at the same time. When you get the technique down, try holding a folding chair about shoulder hight for a few minuets at a time. That will build up your strength in no time.


UDT underwater recovery stroke is basically the side stroke, but with your hands and arms always underwater. The trick is the timing of your kick stroke and glide, and try to swim with your head underwater, only surfacing to breath. You'll plane out easier that way and go faster.

In BUD/S, the knot tying is one at a time, or all at once if you have the balls. It's atually easier than it looks. Just relax and do it.

I'm not in tune with the SF scuba course, so it may be different.

I hope this helps you a little.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Thanks G.

[Matchanu]

Originally posted by Robertson
.

Tuesdays I'll swim only using a snorkel and a mask and can not at any time touch the outside of the pool, and I wont take off the mask or snorkel at anytime unless I’m practicing clearing the mask.





Again, I'm not that familier with the SF course, but forget the snorkel. This makes it a lot easier to breath. A mask with no snorkel when swimming side stroke, (underwater recovery) takes some getting used to. For one thing, water funnels it's way to your mouth with a mask on, and you can't breath through your nose.

Once you get nice and comfy with the pool, take your comfort to the ocean. It's a whole new experience.

[Robertson]

Matchanu,

Thank you very much for the information. Once I get back to my college I'll be in the pool trying the eggbeater method. Everyday I wake up that's all I can think about is how to improove this. The UDT Recovery Stroke seems like it takes some practice. I realized from one of the videos on specialoperations.net that once you get the technique down, you literally cruise underwater.

I'll ditch the snorkel until I hear otherwise from someone else.

As for getting to the ocean I've experienced that out in Huntington Beach, CA. - I'll have to wait until CDQC. I'm packed schedule wise.


-Robertson

[Robertson]

I'll be hitting my Tuesday pool time for tomorrow.


-Robertson

[Roycroft201]

Robertson,

First, I am a 'guest' here at PS.

I enter this discussion only because I was a certified WSI (Water Safety Instructor) and had to teach some of what you are referring to others (to civilians, not military) who were trying to qualify to become certified intructors themselves.

My comments are directed only to your problem of getting over the hurdle of treading water,w/ head and hands above water, for a sustained period.

You have received excellent information. One mentioned using a scissors kick method and the 'egg beater' method was mentioned by someone who has BTDT. I am in no way trying to promote one method over the other. I am suggesting that you try both methods and see which feels more 'comfortable'.

In addition, you have to listen carefully to what has been said to you about your mindset and step back and relax.

As NDD mentioned, I too found success with the scissors kick method. Envision the surface of the water as a horizontal plane. By doing a scissors kick (the same scissors kick you would do with the sidestroke but now you are vertical) you will find that your head and hands will go up and down above that plane as you execute the stroke but by finding the proper speed of doing that stroke, you will NOT go down so far that you break that plane. You will find a speed of repeating the kick (and this applies to eggbeater too) that allows you to MAINTAIN your goal but does not burn you out. Please note: I say this as instruction for having to sustain head and hands above water for a prolonged periods of time. If you are required to keep head and hands "X" number of inches above that plane obviously you will have to increase the speed of your repetitions.

Questions:
Are you doing your kick 'effectively'? If you are not executing the kick properly in the first place you are overcompensating for a poor kick. Find someone knowledgeable to observe your kick underwater to see if you are executing the basic movements correctly.

Then move on to determine which method of kick you are most comfortable and successful with. Give each method a fair trial. If however, you are REQUIRED to do one kick rather than the other, then just ignore what I just said.

Experiment with 'speed' of kick so you can comfortably prolong
your time.

Once you have all your basics down, begin holding weights in your hands (rubberized block weights work well to start).

You can't go wrong when you have people like NDD and Match giving you instruction.
Good luck.

Roycroft201
(once a teacher, always a teacher- just the curriculum changes).

[Robertson]

Roycroft201,


Thank you for the advice.

-Robertson

[Robertson]

When doing crossovers, do you swim the length of the pool or the width? What is a good number of crossovers to do. There is no lifeguard that is at the pool so I don't want to risk blacking out.


The length of the pool I've been in is 25M.
The width I don't know.


-Robertson

[Ambush Master]

Originally posted by Robertson
When doing crossovers, do you swim the length of the pool or the width? What is a good number of crossovers to do. There is no lifeguard that is at the pool so I don't want to risk blacking out.


The length of the pool I've been in is 25M.
The width I don't know.


-Robertson

You just busted RULE #! !!!

NEVER SWIM WITHOUT A BUDDY !!!! And that Buddy knows how to swim plus there must be apparatus available and readily accessible to retrieve someone from the pool !!

P.S. Roycroft 201: I also was a certified WSI (Water Safety Instructor) .

Take care.
Martin

[Robertson]

Ambush Master,

I swim with a buddy but there is no lifeguard. I am not sure if he knows how to do proper steps to retrieve someone from the pool. No one, at my college is man enough to get up at 0450 here and go swimming until 0630. That would mean they lose almost a whole hour of sleep. Reveille plays at 0545.




-Robertson

[Robertson]

Gentlemen,


I'm at less then 10 days until I depart for Pre-CDQC. I've been asking around to a number of different people about knot tying. The one knot that I ask about is the Girth Hitch. When I ask about this knot people look at me like my head is on backwards - does anyone know how to tie this knot?

-Robertson

[Kyobanim]

Originally posted by Robertson
Gentlemen,


I'm at less then 10 days until I depart for Pre-CDQC. I've been asking around to a number of different people about knot tying. The one knot that I ask about is the Girth Hitch. When I ask about this knot people look at me like my head is on backwards - does anyone know how to tie this knot?

-Robertson

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Girth+Hitch

There's too many links here for me to post. Here's a pic.

[Robertson]

Kyobanim,


Thank you for the picture. My trouble is acutally tying the knot. I've looked around on google and I've seen pictures as you have displayed. I'm trying to find directions and pictures as they have displayed in this link:

http://www.climerware.com/cknot1.htm

I'll keep looking around on the net, if I dont find anything I'll let you know.


Thank you,

-Robertson

[Surgicalcric]

here is another one...

[Robertson]

Thank you,


I found this link which showed these two images and I figured it out from there.

[Robertson]

here is the second image once the rope is tightened:




-Robertson

[ccrn]

I hope I am not overstepping any bounds here as I am not a military or combat swimmer.

I did however grow up surfing and swimming in the ocean. Aside from all that has already been mentioned is breathing.

When treading water (or even just floating or swimming), exhale then immediately inhale and hold your breath until you need another. Then exhale and inhale right away again. This causes you to be more bouyant-

FWIW

ccrn

[Robertson]

Less than 7 days then I'm off to Pre-CDQC.

Is it normal to have the feeling of just wanting to get there and start the training?

In all seriousness I am having trouble sleeping and all I can think about is getting to Pre-CDQC and training.

I was trying to relax today watching TV with the family tonight and I said to my self 7 days until Pre-CDQC and just got up and went running and then when I decided that my urge was over I had ran 6 miles.

Then I caught myself tying knots today for a good hour. I came across a question - What is the end of bowline with an extra turn? What is the Extra Turn part?


I'm just wondering what it is that I am feeling - All I can think about is Pre-CDQC, keep training- no slacking, and I just keep hopeing the days speed up so Sunday comes around and I am there.

Now once I get there I may have some other thoughts to myself but I realize in the end it will all be worth it.


-Robertson

[Robertson]

I would just like to thank everyone for all their advice. Today was my last day of swimming/running/working out.

I will be leaving in less than two days and I am going to use them to relax and jogging of course.

Special thanks to NDD

I'll try to keep everyone posted on my status - wish me luck.


-Robertson

[tmax1014]

I am working on getting my gills at the moment in preparation for the 18x process. My main problem right now is getting my breathing down on my strokes. This is mainly do to a little bit of water getting in my up my nose and down into my throat when I inhale. I have been tempted to get nose plugs, but I am concerned that they are not allowed during the combat survival swimming tests that I will need to do. I also do not want to develop a crutch. I have looked many places on the net and searched through past threads on here that are related or have covered this topic. If anyone could inform me on whether or not nose plugs are allowed or discouraged, I would greatly appreciate it.

Hopefully within a few months of swimming daily, I will grow my gills and no longer have the need to breath between strokes:rolleyes:

[Richard]

Nose plugs/clips? Thanks for making my day! :D

Practice - concentrate on exhaling as your face clears the water and making sure your face is free of the water before inhaling - it's a rhythm and it'll come with practice. Just wait until you're in a marginal sea state - at night - with all your gear in tow - you'll either figure it out or drown - your call. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

[tmax1014]

Glad I could help! lol

Thank you for the advice. I figured that it was a no-go on the plugs, but I wanted to be sure

[Pete]

You are allowed to use Snorkel Lips if you have them.

[Scimitar]

I'm not in the SFQC so I comment carefully here, someone more in the know can confirm or deny.

I was advised by a number of different sources that on the list of "shit you need to have squared away", swimming and specifically the Combat Swim Stroke is WAAAYYY down the list and arguable not on it at all.

Sure, be able to swim 100m with gear on for the SFAS swim test, but anything after this is probably time spent on the wrong priority...? (not that I'm one to comment in this area...:cool: )

My understanding is that with the SFAS swim test 100m of doggy paddle would still pass; it is a safety check not a swimming proficiency test.
i.e. if you fall in water on a night movement during Selection, can you DX your Ruck and swim to safety with out panicking and drowning?).
This is why that have / had the 2 wks? swim school for those who DXed the swim test...

Better information welcome...

Scimitar

[tmax1014]

I'm not in the SFQC so I comment carefully here, someone more in the know can confirm or deny.

I was advised by a number of different sources that on the list of "shit you need to have squared away", swimming and specifically the Combat Swim Stroke is WAAAYYY down the list and arguable not on it at all.

Sure, be able to swim 100m with gear on for the SFAS swim test, but anything after this is probably time spent on the wrong priority...? (not that I'm one to comment in this area...:cool: )

My understanding is that with the SFAS swim test 100m of doggy paddle would still pass; it is a safety check not a swimming proficiency test.
i.e. if you fall in water on a night movement during Selection, can you DX your Ruck and swim to safety with out panicking and drowning?).
This is why that have / had the 2 wks? swim school for those who DXed the swim test...

Better information welcome...

Scimitar


Based on what I've read around here you need to be a strong swimmer. The 100 meters is a minimum, and I definitely don't want to get by with the minimum. I am well away from SF, even SFAS. I'm signing in Oct. and I want to be prepared when I get where I am going. I already feel like I'm behind the eight-ball.

[Richard]

I already feel like I'm behind the eight-ball.

Don't worry about it - it'll go away when you sign out and they give you that blue ID card. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

[tmax1014]

Don't worry about it - it'll go away when you sign out and they give you that blue ID card. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Sign out...blue ID card?

[Richard]

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Sign out...blue ID card?

Retire. :lifter

Richard's $.02 :munchin

[tmax1014]

Retire. :lifter

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Haha, gotcha! Well I guess I can start getting acclimated to the feeling then. Again thank you for the insight.

[Scimitar]

Based on what I've read around here you need to be a strong swimmer. The 100 meters is a minimum, and I definitely don't want to get by with the minimum. I am well away from SF, even SFAS. I'm signing in Oct. and I want to be prepared when I get where I am going. I already feel like I'm behind the eight-ball.

Again, I could be wrong, but I think the only swimming you will be doing during the whole SFQC is that 100m test. Yes most teams, if not all, have swimming as a required infil technique (i.e. CSS), but my understanding is that there really is no need to learn the Combat Swim Stroke until you hit a team.

Honestly I'm pretty sure that LTC Martin would have mentioned it in his book "Get Selected for Special Forces" if it was important.

What he does say is important is
1) PT Prep incl Rucking
2) Mental / Emotional Prep
3) A bit of Land Nav Prep
4) And the 100m swim test

Doesn't mention anything more then this swim prep wise. If you have those 4 bases covered sure knock yourself out and learn the CSS, but shit what do I know. Just some thoughts from a Non-QP and what he's been told by QPs. Again there are far more qualified then I to give advice in this area.


Scimitar

[Utah Bob]

Well, he left for the course on 5/15. No word yet.
Hope he didn't drown.:munchin

[Remington Raidr]

5/15/2004. Now a Ranger schooled infantry PL in the Guard if I read his profile correctly.:eek:

[tmax1014]

Understood. Will keep working on my swimming, but the Ruck/Run/Landnav will take the front seat.