Rifles, Carbines, and Accessories, a Primer

[The Reaper]

Rifles, Carbines, and Accessories, a Primer

Introduction

There is a good bit of discussion today about carbines and what proper accessories are.

Many websites are out there with tons of information. Some is from experts, some is from guys who use their guns for games, and some is from kids who have not owned anything more lethal than an Airsoft rifle. An experienced warrior will hold the edge with a 1903 Springfield over a wannabe with a SIG 552. The weapon is merely a tool, and possession of the latest and greatest no more makes one a soldier than owning a Stradivarius would make me a concert violinist.

In light of that, I would offer the following as my personal opinions as a former action guy who has been a few places and done a few things, nothing particularly HSLD. I have access to a lot of different options and have, as I suspect that many of you do, accumulated several boxes of parts that were recommended or looked cool that once mounted, just didn’t do the job. I still shoot regularly and am involved with training SF and SOF personnel.

A brief history

It is generally accepted that the assault rifle had its beginnings in Germany with the STG-44. It was a compact, magazine fed, self-loading, selective-fire carbine chambered for an intermediate-powered cartridge, the 7.92x33 Kurz. The AK-47 has many similarities. Early post-War thinking led Western arms designers to believe that a full-powered round was a better choice for the next war, so despite the efforts of the Brits, the US pushed NATO into the 7.62x51 round, basically a shortened .30-’06. Rifles developed for it were the M-14, the FAL, and the G-3. These rifles generally used a 20 round magazine and loaded, weighed in the neighborhood of 9-11 pounds with an overall length of 40-44”. Eventually, the weight and size of the rifle and the ammo, combined with increasing numbers of females in the service, led the US to move to their first assault rifle, the AR-15, which became the M-16, using the 5.56x45 round.

Choose the right tool for the job

As with many things, requirements should drive your weapons selection. If you will need to make 600 meter shots, shoot through cars and buildings, or make head shots at 300 meters, an assault rifle/carbine is probably not the right selection. If you are looking for a lightweight, portable weapon to carry indoors, or in a vehicle, to be used at shorter ranges, but to possess more power than an SMG or pistol, then the assault rifle/carbine is the optimum choice. If you are a civilian who wants a weapon for home defense, unless you are anticipating a Night of the Living Dead scenario, a thirty round mag, a HSLD optical sight, the ability to engage out to 300 meters and beyond, and the ability to penetrate 4 interior walls are probably negatives, especially when you have to explain it in court. The weapon will look “offensive” to the uninformed, and collateral damage is going to be difficult to justify. Get a Remington 870 that looks like Grand Pa’s duck gun instead. It will work wonders on several intruders. If you are deploying to the Box as a servicemember or a contractor, and want to maintain proficiency, or get some good accessories, this is the place to get the skinny.

The basis for a good set-up is the right weapon. There are many assault rifles and carbines to choose from today. I have a fair amount of trigger time on AKs, Galils, ARs, M14s, Berettas, FNs, HKs, Steyrs, SIGs, etc. They each have their pros and cons. Most, in one form or another, are available to civilians in free parts of the US. Pointless, “feel-good” legislation, illegal policies, and nambyism have limited the availability of some, and raised the prices of most others.

A Sturmgewehr or full-sized battle rifle like the M-14, HK G-3, or FN-FAL shoots a full-power rifle cartridge, normally a 7.62x51. While there are environments where that is needed, it will be heavier, will recoil more, be more difficult to control, will tend to penetrate barriers better, and the ammo will weigh twice as much or more than an intermediate power assault rifle round. That means that you will only be able to carry half as many rounds. Not a problem if you are only carrying it from your car to the firing line, but if you actually have to hump it with a basic load, it can become tiring very quickly. That is why the basic load for an M-1 or an M-14 is about half what it is for the M-16. There are “carbine” and Para versions of these rifles. They will recoil more, have more muzzle blast, and generally be even more difficult to control. And the ammo will still be heavier than the assault rifle.

Characteristics

The assault rifle will generally be chambered for one of the common assault rifle cartridges, like the 7.62x39, 5.56x45, or the 5.45x39. It will have a detachable box magazine of 30 rounds capacity or more. Actual assault rifles will be capable of controlled full-auto fire. It will weigh between six and nine pounds and will be about 30-36” on overall length.

The first thing a gun must be is reliable. The most precise weapon or the best accessories in the world are useless if the gun doesn’t go ban when the trigger is pulled. That is one of the advantages of the AK. No matter where it was made, or how poorly it is maintained, or the condition of the mag, or how crappy the ammo, it will almost always work reliably. At the same time, it is not a precision weapon. The AK is probably among the most reliable under a variety of adverse conditions, with the others falling somewhere underneath. With good mags and ammo, the AR is capable of cycling reliably for several thousand rounds before cleaning becomes necessary. That many rounds exceed what most would expect to fire in a single engagement. It does not mean that it should not be cleaned sooner when time permits.

Second, the weapon must be accurate enough for its intended purpose. Most AKs are accurate enough for engagements under 100 meters. Beyond that, it becomes questionable. Some, with the right ammo will shoot well out to 300 meters. Most will not. ARs tend to be among the more accurate, along with HKs and SIGs. A carbine is not a sniper weapon. If you expect it to be, you are likely to be disappointed. The abbreviated barrel of a carbine normally has a shorter sight radius and gives up a significant amount of muzzle velocity to the full-sized counterpart. At the same time, it is lighter and more portable. If you anticipate the need to reach out and touch targets at extended ranges, this should affect your decision. The majority of combat engagements are taking place under 100 meters though. Take your rifle and gear out to the range, jock up, and see what your groups look like at 100 meters. If that went well, move the target out to 300 meters and try again. That is your practical accuracy, rather then the theoretical accuracy you get off of a sandbag. Your max effective range is realistically what you can do with your gear from combat shooting positions against a man sized target, like a Series E silhouette, or for a more realistic challenge, a KZ-sized paper plate. As with hunting, you need to know what your limits are, as well as that of your equipment, and respect them.

Many assault rifles and carbines are designed for differing people with differing ergonomics. However, ergonomics on some rifles are clearly better then others. While the selector switch on an AK also functions as a dust cover, it is needlessly difficult to manipulate when in a firing position and is noisy. The Galil attempts to address this, but is only marginally successful. The M-14 retains the Garand slotted safety at the front of the trigger guard. This requires the trigger finger to come off the trigger to take the safety off, and for the trigger finger to reach around the front of the trigger guard to activate it. For right handed shooters, the optimum placement of the safety appears to be on the left side of the receiver, above the thumb. The AK and most older weapons require the supporting hand depress a latch to remove a magazine, and many require that the mag be “rocked” out of the mag well from rear to front, thus slowing a reload as the hand must first remove the empty mag before reinserting the fresh one. The AR allows the index finger of the shooting hand to depress the mag release and drop the empty mag without assistance. On the older rifles, the bolt is designed to be operated by the right (shooting) hand. The FAL, G-3, and ARs are charged and cleared with the left (support) hand (though the HK requires the operator to reach far out onto the forend to do so). Failure drills and loading will be faster with such as system. I do like the raised vertical bolt handle of the Galil, as it allows for easy manipulation by either hand. Finally, the AK has no bolt hold open, and neither does the HK. The AR series do, and it is easily accessible by the support hand after inserting a magazine. It is large enough to permit slapping with the hand, rather than requiring a precise move to operate. The AR is much faster to reload than the AK, the HK, the M-14, or even the FAL. Sights are important to accuracy. I am probably prejudiced, but I think that the M-14 has the best sights. The AR, FAL, and G3 are good, but lack the quick, fine adjustments of the M-14. The AK sights are fast and robust, but are of very short radius and only grossly adjustable, contributing to the accuracy issue.

[The Reaper]

(Continued)

The price of the weapons system must also be considered. If the rifle is inexpensive, but mags, rails, etc. are expensive or not available, it may not be a bargain. Generally, I would stick with a military-type rifle in a common military caliber. The rifles we are discussing run from $400 to $3000, plus mags and accessories. Mags can be as little as $5 each up to $100 or more, depending on the weapon. With a SIG or SR-25, it can be very expensive to accumulate the 8-20 mags that I like to have for my long guns, along with all of the rest of the gear.

In case you have not detected up to this point, the weapon that I believe provides the optimum mix of reliability, accuracy, ergonomics, and affordability is the AR series. It just feels right in my hand, and will do what I need an assault rifle or carbine to do. Another advantage is that the 7.62 versions use exactly the same controls and muscle memory to operate, and in some cases, even parts are interchangable. Thus everything from a dedicated shorty like the CQB-R to an M-4, to an SPR, to an M-16, to a 7.62 shorty, to a mid-length 7.62 carbine, to a Mark 11, Mod 0 7.62 sniper rifle works almost exactly the same, allowing transition for what is essentially an SMG all the way through a dedicated sniper rifle without relearning a new manual of arms and set of controls that are significantly different. Pick it up and if you are familiar with one, you can run any of them just as well.

Brands

There are many makers of AR type rifles and carbines out there. While a good maker may occasionally have a poor rifle go out the door, a poor maker rarely puts out a good one. An inexpensive AR is normally a false economy which you will pay for repeatedly. The best ARs I have used lately have come from LMT and Rock River. Armalite, Colt, and Bushmaster normally make decent rifles, but occasionally have problems. If you start with good receivers, you can build a good AR with quality parts, but it will be much easier (and cheaper, unless you plan to buy the tools) to buy the upper with the barrel already installed. Other manufacturers may make a decent rifle as well, but before I bought one, I would ask for a money back guarantee from the store I was buying from.

Parts

Some people think that parts are parts. I believe that there is a difference. In many cases, “government” or “surplus” parts are in fact, rejected or stolen. Buy your parts from reputable sources. Brownell’s would be a good source for quality parts. Gun shows may not be. Caveat emptor!

Optioning the weapon

Upper

The M-4gery is one of the most common configurations of the AR. It is a good set-up that allows people to have a weapon that approximates the weapon that the HSLD troops carry. It is light, quick, and effective at ranges out to 300 meters. IMHO, for a number of reasons, the 16” variant is the one to have. If you are going to be primarily shooting M856 Tracer or match bullets of 75 grains or more, then you need the 1x7” twist barrel. If you are going to shoot a mix of ammo from 50 to 75 grains, I prefer the 1x9” twist. If you have a full-auto lower, or plan to blast away mags as fast as you can, you need the heavy barrel. If not, you don’t. The chrome-lined chrome moly barrels may be slightly less accurate than the stainless steel barrels, but they are also lower maintenance. For the carbine, or a tactical weapon, I prefer the chrome lined version. The M203 cut down is an affectation, unless you have an M203 or plan to get one. Frankly, if you can afford a 203 and the ammo, you can afford another upper. While the standard issue A2 birdcage is a good flash suppressor, the Phantom and Vortex are better. I do not like the carrying handle on my uppers if I plan to mount an optical sight. They are nice to get as you can chop them down with a saw to make a good economical detachable rear sight. The Colt uppers have double heat shielded handguards which are somewhat larger than most other brands. As I prefer rail type fore ends, I would skip the more expensive handguards. I have a box full of takeoffs. The forward assist is controversial. Some people love them and some hate them. While it is possible to build a flat sided upper, I prefer to have the FA, just in case. The POF/DSA/HK piston driven uppers are nice, but are currently very expensive. Unless you have the extra bucks, I would skip them and get a quality flat-topped upper with a 16” 1x9” straight profile barrel, capped with a Phantom flash suppressor. If I were not using NVDs, I would probably run a tritium front sight post from Trijicon.

Bolt Carrier Group

Inside the upper are the guts of the rifle, the bolt carrier assembly. This is one of the areas most commonly involved in malfunctions. Get a good quality bolt and bolt carrier. I prefer the chrome plated ones when I can find them for ease of cleaning. I also like the O-ring mod to the extractor to give it a little extra grip on the rim. There is no need for titanium firing pin or other affectations, unless you like giving money away. The charging handle is your contact with the bolt carrier assembly. There is a fine line between making the charging handle easier to access and making it large enough to be in the way. I like the PRI Big Latch installed on a normal carrying handle. If you are going to be shooting with a can on the rifle, or have the extra money, the PRI Gas Buster is the best charging handle available and it already has the Big Latch installed.

Lowers

The lower and upper should be of the same brand, unless you are going to be able to mate them in person. A few thousandths here and there and pretty soon, your rifle is sloppy or hard to put together or take apart. A good lower fit is an important thing. Use quality components in your lower. You do not want your rifle doubling, not going boom when it should or worse yet, going off when it shouldn’t. Get the RRA or comparable two-stage match trigger. You should be a much better shooter with it. It is hard to shoot well with a creepy, nine pound trigger. I like the Falcon Ergo Sure Grip (it also comes with a Gapper), but some find that other grips meet their needs better. The Otis Grip Cleaning Kit will also fit in the Falcon, if you load it just right. I am not a fan of the winter trigger guard, unless you wear heavy gloves a lot. Ambidextrous safeties are a good thing if you are left handed, or anticipate being so. Do NOT use M-16 parts unless you have a registered Class Three weapon. As a matter of fact, as discussed extensively on another thread, there are only a couple of uses for a fully automatic weapon, other than blasting for fun, and it is hard to justify the $10,000 for a registered M-16 lower just to do that.

Stocks

While the fixed buttstock is stronger, a collapsible buttstock s very handy if the weapon is to be carried in and out of tight quarters, like vehicles, aircraft, structures, etc., or you wear a mix of heavy gear like armor, vests, winter clothing, etc. It also fits an assortment of different users better, like armory weapons have to. Among the collapsible stocks, I prefer the feel and function of the Crane SOPMOD buttstock on my carbines, though some prefer the Magpul stock.

BUIS

Every tactical weapon needs back-up iron sights. All optics can be broken, and most are battery powered. After using cutdown carrying handles, Knights, ARMS, Troys, and PRIs, I have found the Troy to be my first choice for both rear and front sights, if the front is not fixed. It maintains a lower profile and is easier to use than most of the others. It is not spring loaded though, and the ARMS #40 L, which would be my second choice, is, if you like that feature.

Optical Sights

Optical sights are like opinions, but here goes. I have used the Aimpoint, EOTech, Trijicon reflex, TX-30, ACOGs, Leupolds, Elcans, and an assortment of copies of them. I like the EOTech 552/553 for CQB and close work out to 100 meters, and the Trijicon TA-31 RCO ACOG if the ranges will go beyond that. You are welcome to drop $300-$1500 each to decide for yourself.

Mounts

To keep the expensive optics securely mounted and zeroed, I prefer the LaRue mounts. I have used most of the others and prefer the LaRue for security and repeatability of zero. And Mark is just a great American.

The micro dot sights like the Docter Optic and J Point are nice options if your primary is not optimal for CQB or you need a backup. Some put them directly on top of the primary optic, at which point your cheek weld becomes a chin weld. I prefer the 1:30 mount off the forend like the Yankee Hill Machine mount.

Foreend

The foreend, as I stated, needs to be railed. I have the KAC RIS and RAS, the PRI, the LaRue, the SIR, the SureFire, and a couple of manufacturer’s private brands. If you want a free-float tube, I prefer the LaRue. If you are on a tighter budget, or do not need the free-float capability, it is hard to argue against the SureFire, which installs easily, locks up very tightly, and is reasonably priced. The SureFire uses sexy looking ladder covers, which are very nice unless the weapon gets hot. If you are going to be doing any blasting, get a set of the larger plastic covers and install them before proceeding, unless you like the ladder burns on your support hand.

[The Reaper]

Illumination

All tactical firearms which could be carried at night need a light for target ID and engagement. I like the SureFires due to the quality, durability, power, run time, and availability. Among the SureFire weapons lights, I like the M900/M910 series with the built in vertical foregrip, the M951/M961 series, or the M600 Scout Light on the 3:00 rail. My personal preference for a long range, powerful light is the M910A with the blue navigation lights. A second choice for a more compact, less powerful light would be an M600A Scout light with either the incandescent head from the Scout Light IR Kit 01, or the head from the E2E (you can put the Scout Light LED head on your headless E2E and get a good LED handheld light). Ditch the tape switch and use the push button tailcap. Alternately, you can buy a 1” or a 3/4” QD ring and use the 6P or E2E as your weapons light for a lot less money.

Vertical foregrips

The weapons lights without the built in vertical foregrip IMHO, need a foregrip. Again, many people have different tastes, most liking the KAC or one of the copies thereof. I prefer the Dieter CQD, which unfortunately now comes only with the large tape switch cutout. I wish they would get a clue and offer it with no cutout or with a plug for the hole it creates. The best solution I have come up with is a piece of plastic that fits (more or less) in the gap, and a section of inner tube holding it in place.

Slings

I have a sack full of old slings. I used to prefer the Eagle three point slings in the HK set-up, but have gone to the Vickers Blue Force Gear sling and find little about it that I don’t like, other than the price. $50, for a piece of fabric and a couple of buckles? Yikes, someone is getting a big cut! IMHO, the two-point is the way to go, and I do like the fast adjustment pull on it. The single-point is very handy till it pogos and hits you in the face, and the three point slings I have used are constantly getting tangled.

Sling swivels

I used to use the rotating KAC push button sling swivel, till I noticed the amount of time I was regularly spending unwinding the sling. Now I use a fixed side-mount attachment point on the 9:00 forend rail. My current one is the Dieter CQD, but find one you like and go for it.

Lasers

Lasers are cool, if you have a PAQ or PEQ and are using NODs. If not, I really don’t see why you need a laser to point out you to your target, and his friends.

Bipods

Bipods are great on a precision rifle. We have already discussed the fact that a carbine is already a compromise. Why are you packing an extra part which weighs as much as a spare mag, but does nothing 99% of the time other than making the CQB weapon even heavier? Put the bipod on the SPR.

Suppressors

I am a recent convert to suppressors. On the tac carbine, intended for use inside structures or vehicles, it will save your hearing and allows you to hear who else is shooting. For LE, it keeps the blast down in potentially dangerous environments like meth labs, and should minimize hearing and overpressure injuries among officers and potentially innocent bystanders. It is not the silencer of the movies, since the supersonic crack is still loud, but it takes away the muzzle blast, which is significant on a short rifle or carbine. I prefer the SureFire as the most accurate, durable, repeatable suppressor on the market.

Speed loading devices

Some love them, but I do not have a preference for Redi-Mags and other speed loaders. If after 30 rounds you cannot anticipate a reload or find one on your gear, you are not going to fix it with a second mag.

Mags

It is a little late to mention this, but good magazines are the heart of any mag fed weapon. Do not buy USA brand or other commercial mags, stick with the USGI mags. There are a lot of resources on the net comparing the half dozen manufacturers who have made mags for the US military. Rumor is that there are only two sets of M-16 mag tooling, one at Colt and the other with a contractor, The military contract is supposedly a small business set aside, and that after the contractor has the contract for a couple of years, they are no longer small businesses. Regardless, the US GI mags are the best of the aluminum mags. Combined with the new Green issued or Magpul followers and a good quality spring, the US GI mags should run well for a long time if properly maintained. Some prefer the Teflon coating, and some do not. The HK steel mags are very nicely made, and seem to work well for me, but some have mentioned that they are sensitive to being dropped on the lips. That could be a problem for any mag, if you are regularly dropping it loaded onto a hard surface, like concrete. It is worse if it is loaded at the time. Take care of your mags. If they give you any problems that can’t be fixed by cleaning, new springs, or good followers, crush them and toss them. At less than $15 each, AR mags are too inexpensive to take chances on.

Ammo

Use quality ammo. The cheap stuff will eventually bite you with malfunctions or worse yet, a squib. Ask yourself if the pennies you are saving per round are worth blowing up a rifle, or worse yet, taking out an eye. Don’t fall for a false economy. I like US GI surplus Ball, NATO surplus, or Winchester, Federal, or Remington FMJ budget lines.

Summary

Too many people hang too much junk on their weapons. Try to keep a minimalist approach to things. A sight and a light are the starting point for accessories, and could be the final set up as well. Do not add weight to the weapon that you do not need. Two or three minutes in the offhand position holding hard on a target should prove the merits of that. Find what works for you and train hard with it. If you are not using it, think about getting rid of it. Spend the extra money on good mags and ammo. Good luck!

I am sure that there are other accessories out there that I have forgotten, and again, this is just my personal preference. If you start out with the gear I recommend, you will have eliminated most of the expensive mistakes out there and will have something of proven quality to compare the rest against before you buy again.

Hope this was of benefit, or at least spurs some discussion. Happy New Year!

TR

[catd11r]

Thank you Reaper for the excellant insight and knowledge. I appreciate it.

[Peregrino]

Nice post Boss. This should be copyrighted. I hope the ones who need the info pay attention. (The rest of us are probably already within a normal dispersion pattern given individual preferences.) I do know you've saved me money on gadgets over the years (pays to know somebody willing to test the waters when the new toys come out :p ). Any addendum from me wouldn't ammount to more than flavor variety, certainly not a significant difference in application/outlook. My .02 - Peregrino

[jasonglh]

Thanks Reaper for combining all this information in one post. I had been reading the old threads here trying to take in all the reviews posted by the BTDT's as a basis for my carbine shopping list.

I had already bookmarked the front sling mount you mentioned in another post but was curious how you had it mounted in the rear?

[rubberneck]

You must have read my mind. I was just about to embark on building my first AR and you answered just about every question I had. Thanks. You just saved me a lot of time and effort trying to figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is clueless over at AR.com.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Excellent thread Boss! Outstanding work.

[The Reaper]

Thanks Reaper for combining all this information in one post. I had been reading the old threads here trying to take in all the reviews posted by the BTDT's as a basis for my carbine shopping list.

I had already bookmarked the front sling mount you mentioned in another post but was curious how you had it mounted in the rear?

You are all most certainly welcome. The New Year seemed to call for a little information sharing.

The Vickers sling mounts through the horizontal slot in the buttstock under the back of the buffer tube. I have the CQD rear receiver mount between the buffer tube and the rear of the receiver, but to use it with the Vickers sling would require a ring or an eye type hook. The sling is very long already attached at the front of the handguard and the rear of the stock. Also, I do not like loose stuff close to the charging handle latch as it is critical that it not become fouled. You know Murphy is waiting, and the first time would be the last time.

TR

[Surgicalcric]

To echo NDD, excellent thread Sir.

Keep sharing the info and experience. Learning is what I am here for, well that and being a punching bag from time-to-time... :D

Crip

[ABN_FO]

You are all most certainly welcome. The New Year seemed to call for a little information sharing.

Can we have the New Year 2-3 times a week?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Great post!

[x SF med]

"In case you have not detected up to this point, the weapon that I believe provides the optimum mix of reliability, accuracy, ergonomics, and affordability is the AR series. It just feels right in my hand, and will do what I need an assault rifle or carbine to do. Another advantage is that the 7.62 versions " (from Characteristics - page 2 - second paragraph on page)


TR not a sharpshoot - just truly curious what's supposed to follow this, seems to have gotten cut off. Please finish it, inquiring minds want to know!!!

Outstanding post.

[The Reaper]

"In case you have not detected up to this point, the weapon that I believe provides the optimum mix of reliability, accuracy, ergonomics, and affordability is the AR series. It just feels right in my hand, and will do what I need an assault rifle or carbine to do. Another advantage is that the 7.62 versions " (from Characteristics - page 2 - second paragraph on page)


TR not a sharpshoot - just truly curious what's supposed to follow this, seems to have gotten cut off. Please finish it, inquiring minds want to know!!!

Outstanding post.

Sorry, I had to cut and paste it to fit and I must have dropped that part. Good catch!

"...the 7.62 versions use exactly the same controls and muscle memory to operate, and in some cases, even parts are interchangable. Thus everything from a dedicated shorty like the CQB-R to an M-4, to an SPR, to an M-16, to a 7.62 shorty, to a mid-length 7.62 carbine, to a Mark 11, Mod 0 7.62 sniper rifle works almost exactly the same, allowing transition for what is essentially an SMG all the way through a dedicated sniper rifle without relearning a new manual of arms and set of controls that are significantly different. Pick it up and if you are familiar with one, you can run any of them just as well."

HTH.

TR

[Endorphin Rush]

Reaper,

Excellent post!

It took me quite a bit of time and experimentation to figure out what you so adeptly stated in just three short pages. A very well written summation.

[x SF med]

Sorry, I had to cut and paste it to fit and I must have dropped that part. Good catch! ....

HTH.

TR

Boss, it screwed up my reading comprehension, the info that was dropped is golden! Thank you.

[vsvo]

Thank you, Sir. Great post!

[Kraut783]

Good post....I am currently trying to get my unit to purchase the eotech's instead of aimpoints and almost have them convinced. Future OIF deployment on the horizon.

You covered so much, I appreciate the time you took to do this. Great info, thank you. :D

[HOLLiS]

Thank you, Sir. Great post!


I have been thinking of how to respond to this post. The above quote about says it for me. One reason I find this forum of very much worth reading, is the "Real" knowledge that is expressed here.

TR, again, Thank you.

Hollis

[eva05]

Very informative! Thanks!

j

[Team Sergeant]

Good post....I am currently trying to get my unit to purchase the eotech's instead of aimpoints and almost have them convinced. Future OIF deployment on the horizon.



You did see the caveat mentioned with the eotech's? I think its hard to use them past 100m. I prefer the aimpoint 2MOA for close in and out to a few hundred meters.

I like aimpoints battery life, I do not like eotech's. The adjusting knobs on the aimpoint are also a plus when going in and out of sunlight.

As TR said, its an opinion.

TS

[Roguish Lawyer]

You did see the caveat mentioned with the eotech's? I think its hard to use them past 100m. I prefer the aimpoint 2MOA for close in and out to a few hundred meters.

I like aimpoints battery life, I do not like eotech's.

Aha, now I know why you sold your EOtech to me! LMAO

[Monsoon65]

Outstanding post I intend to keep!! A bunch of great info for first time shooters that just purchased a rifle/carbine, or planning to.

[Team Sergeant]

Aha, now I know why you sold your EOtech to me! LMAO

As TR stated its great for close in work and if you have "unlimited" access to batteries you'll be fine.

I posted that based on the fact soldiers do not always have unlimted access to batteries and engagement distances can vary greatly.

Tell you what, when you go to OIF I'll give you all my optics, weapons and equipment to use.;)

TS

[Roguish Lawyer]

Tell you what, when you go to OIF I'll give you all my optics, weapons and equipment to use.;)


;) :D

[Kraut783]

Team Sergeant,

I did see the information about eotech's downside. 100m and in is what we are looking at and we will have a good supply of batteries. Main use will be for protective services.

You bring up a good point that I didn't think about, the adjust knobs for the aimpoint are a lot quicker and easier to manipulate than the eotech. I will have to bring that up. Thanks for the input. :)

[NousDefionsDoc]

Kraut,
Have you T&Ed them both yourself?

[Kraut783]

NousDefionsDoc,

I have been using the eotech on SWAT for a couple of years now. I like em and personally find them quick in CQB situations. I have not played with the aimpoint very much, but when I did the field of view seemed smaller than the eotech overall....tube versus tubeless, I guess.

I plan on taking my eotech and borrowing an aimpoint to take to my unit so everyone can get some hands on with them, including me.

My unit has no optics at this time and have been given the go ahead to purchase some. So we will be taking the matter seriously and doing some good T&E on both.

[dr. mabuse]

Outstanding TR. When you want to know, ask someone who knows...:munchin

[NousDefionsDoc]

NousDefionsDoc,

I have been using the eotech on SWAT for a couple of years now. I like em and personally find them quick in CQB situations. I have not played with the aimpoint very much, but when I did the field of view seemed smaller than the eotech overall....tube versus tubeless, I guess.

I plan on taking my eotech and borrowing an aimpoint to take to my unit so everyone can get some hands on with them, including me.

My unit has no optics at this time and have been given the go ahead to purchase some. So we will be taking the matter seriously and doing some good T&E on both.
Yeah, that was what I was going to suggest. I wouldn't make a recommendation without having played with them. Don't forget when you are playing to use them for intended purpose and for what you need them for.

[Team Sergeant]

NousDefionsDoc,

I have been using the eotech on SWAT for a couple of years now. I like em and personally find them quick in CQB situations. I have not played with the aimpoint very much, but when I did the field of view seemed smaller than the eotech overall....tube versus tubeless, I guess.

I plan on taking my eotech and borrowing an aimpoint to take to my unit so everyone can get some hands on with them, including me.

My unit has no optics at this time and have been given the go ahead to purchase some. So we will be taking the matter seriously and doing some good T&E on both.

Just so you know I didn't want an Aimpoint until they introduced the 2MOA dot. Don't even mess with the 4MOA Aimpoint, go straight to the 2MOA.
What I have not done is fire the 2MOA at night, but I have little doubt it will work fine in that situation.

TS

[C0B2A]

Thank you Sir for all this information. Spent about 3 hours going from section to section googling everything you said just so I could fully understand what you were talking about. Again thank you.
~c0b2a

[chuterigger]

Thank you for sharing sir!:D

[Sionnach]

Thanks for the fantastic information in this thread, TR. Thanks to your great information, I have two RRA AR's en route.

Lasers

Lasers are cool, if you have a PAQ or PEQ and are using NODs. If not, I really don’t see why you need a laser to point out you to your target, and his friends.

I can see a visible laser being useful in only one situation--defending your family from a stealthy intruder.

Given the choice, I'd rather not have to shoot Mr. Burglar. Thanks to Hollywood, a red dot on someones chest has a powerful psychological impact. Unless Mr. Burglar is high on narcotics or alcohol, the red dot may be enough to convince him to lie on the floor waiting on the police, or convince him to expeditiously exit the premises.

[Razor]

Given the choice, I'd rather not have to shoot Mr. Burglar. Thanks to Hollywood, a red dot on someones chest has a powerful psychological impact. Unless Mr. Burglar is high on narcotics or alcohol, the red dot may be enough to convince him to lie on the floor waiting on the police, or convince him to expeditiously exit the premises.

If I am carrying a gun to investigate someone that has already broken the law by breaking into my house in the middle of the night, deterrance through scaring with a laser is not why I have the gun.

[The Reaper]

Exactly.

If you are pointing a firearm, you have chosen to use deadly force.

If you are not justfied in shooting him, then you should not be pointing the weapon at him.

Using lasers and unloaded weapons to "scare" or "convince" someone are a bad practice.

Legal matters and tactics should be discussed on another thread. This one is about hardware.

TR

[gits]

Sir, what is your opinion regarding the Larue Vtac Sling or Vtac style of sling compared to the Vickers sling?

[NousDefionsDoc]

And how about a little lesson on cleaning and lubing, etc.?

[The Reaper]

Sir, what is your opinion regarding the Larue Vtac Sling or Vtac style of sling compared to the Vickers sling?

I have an older VTAC sling. The maker is a buddy of mine, and Mark LaRue is as well, but I have decided to go with the two point Vickers sling. Other than the cost, I have few issues with it.

TR

And how about a little lesson on cleaning and lubing, etc.?

I'll get right on that. There is a lot of great cleaning advice on the net, but it is mixed with some absolute BS.

Biggest deal with cleaning and lubing is knowing what has to be clean or lubed, and doing it. We spend too much time screwing around and trying to get the last speck of carbon off areas that do not have to be clean. We also fail to lube stuff that needs to be and vice versa, as well as using the wrong lube for the part and environment. If the parts rub against one another, they need to be clean.

With issue weapons, almost any part that is shiny is a contact surface and needs lube. I use MILITEC oil and and TWB-25 grease. I run my guns pretty wet unless it is dusty or extremely cold.

Cleaning supplies are a matter of personal preference, but I love the carbon dissolving and bore cleaning of the KG products. I carry Otis kits in the field (plus the issue sectioned rod) and use high-end match type stuff at home.

Hope that works in the short term.

TR

[kgoerz]

I have been using the eotech on SWAT for a couple of years now. I like em and personally find them quick in CQB situations. I have not played with the aimpoint very much, but when I did the field of view seemed smaller than the eotech overall....tube versus tubeless, I guess.

I only got an EOTEC after I retired, for my personal Weapon. Unlike the Aimpoint I only used an EOTEC running and gunning on a Flat Range. Shot it a lot but never used it for CQB. The only thing I liked about it more then the AP. Better perrifial vision. I'm not looking thru a tube. When comparing the two the ability to see around you is the advantage I hear most about the EOTEC over the AP. Everything else is personal preference, for the most part.
Here is a question. Couple of people told me that this is the main purpose for the EOTEC's reticle instead of a single dot, never tried it. If you zero the EOTEC at a 100M, center dot is point of aim point of impact. The bottom tic mark in the reticle is point of aim point of impact around 200M. The top tic mark in the reticle is point of aim point of impact around 25M and under (CQB)
Good feature if true, I never found any documentation about this from EOTEC.

[Gene Econ]

Couple of people told me that this is the main purpose for the EOTEC's reticle instead of a single dot, never tried it. If you zero the EOTEC at a 100M, center dot is point of aim point of impact. The bottom tic mark in the reticle is point of aim point of impact around 200M. The top tic mark in the reticle is point of aim point of impact around 25M and under (CQB) Good feature if true, I never found any documentation about this from EOTEC.

KG:

I don't think so. The circle on the EOTech is sixty minutes I believe.

The circle has a number of uses but probably the most common concerns speed in bringing the eye to the dot and centering a target. The eye will get to the dot and center the target faster with that circle as the circle gives the brain a reference from which to judge a number of physical things. Target movement and speed is a major one. Even if the shooter does not know how big the circle is, it remains a fixed reference in his mind.

Gene

[Gerbermk2]

I like to keep my weapons simple, Reapers "right tool for the job" is a really good analogy.

[yasnevo]

If I may add a little experice I have with EoTechs vs Aimpoints.

With the EoTech, I find that my eye goes to the outside ring first, then to the dot in the center next. So, compared to using Aimpoints, using an EoTech for me is a wee bit slower...

Shooting at distance with an EoTech, 200 yards/meters and beyond, I tend to build a lead fence around my target, meaning... lots of near misses, but not many solid hits.

Lastly, with the way that the circle and the dot appears to me... it looks almost like its a mirrage... it looks wavey to me. I hope that you understand what I am meaning.

I prefer the Aimpoint... I have more than one, I think that the x3 power mangifier on a Larue mount will only serve to make an already awesome weapon sight even better.

With that said... knowing my particular limitations with the EoTech, I can work around them.

This is an awesome thread...

Yancey

[Firearmz]

I too suffer bad hits at 200 with the EO Tech, but in CQB I really like it. I do mostly civilian and LE Training and most of you already know that a lot of civilians attend training for one of two reasons, they are living a dream that never came about or they are serious about personal protection. Those that are living the dream want to turn a light weight carbine into a 15 pound rock. They want to add every thing imaginable to the fore end of the M4. I am a keep it simple and chose the appropriate weapon for your task kind of guy. Great post, I enjoyed reading it.

[Bracholi]

Thank you for writing this primer, it was well written. While I can't really use it yet I plan to use this guide when I do decide to build my carbine. You should write some more :cool:.

[trailrunner]

Why is there not much mention of any dot type optics without batteries, such as the Meprolight M-21 or the Trijicon Reflex?

Do they not perform as well as the others?

[The Reaper]

Why is there not much mention of any dot type optics without batteries, such as the Meprolight M-21 or the Trijicon Reflex?

Do they not perform as well as the others?

The ACOGs are discussed extensively here.

I am not a fan of the Reflex.

TR

[kawika]

Nowadays there is no real reason to go with those sights mentioned. You might as well use a doctor sight or something similar. Sure it has batteries but at 80,000 hours its almost a nonissue. In a lowlight situation or even high light situation you are best having something powered more often than not.

[ObliqueApproach]

TR,

Backtracking to the Brands portion of your original post, do you or anyone else here have any experience with and/or opinions about the Sabertooth Defense Systems M4 Vortec? It is an NFA firearm manufactured by a now defunct company based in NC. I have the opportunity to buy a new one and am just curious about it as, either my Google-fu is weak, or there is nothing on the internet about it.

Thanks!

[MeC86]

Went out to the range with new LMT MRP 10.5 in. yesterday. Decided to go with this model after reading its praise on this website and other research.

The weapon ran like a top with all kinds of ammo (75 gr, 55 gr, and frangible) and magazines (steel, aluminum, Pmags).

I only took it out to 50 meters with iron sights, but it kept a sub MOA group with all the ammo. Ill post its performance at the 100 yrd line when I head back to the range next week.

I did not play with the qucik barrel change feature, but LMT claimes it will hold 1 MOA after it is removed and replaced. Anyone have experience with this?

I've only put about 400 round through the weapon so far, and I am very satisfied with its performance.

[Divemaster]

I can only speak from a CQB perspective in Iraq. The EOTECH has never let me down. If I were to buy a sight for a personal M4 it would be an EOTECH. This is just my opinion and where I will spend my $$.

[steelcobra]

First things first: I'm nearly blind without glasses (I can't read this text at a normal distance without them), and military optics labs never get my script right, so I get stuck with just-not-quite-right ballistics inserts.

I suck with irons, enough said. All of this is for perspective.

Last year's deployment I had the Aimpoint M68 (Comp M2 model). I shot 40/40 with it, but my lenses tend to turn the dot into a backslash.

This year we got ACOG TA31s. I love this sight. Better accuracy than the Aimpoint (easy 1moa groups, as opposed to 5 in the zero target circle), the reticle doesn't distort, and just by switching if my left eye is open goes from reflex to zoom instantly.

And I second on the Surefire rails. Had those last year too. Seriously superior to the standard KAC rails (You can actually take them off), all you need to put them on/take them off is an Allen key.

As to lasers, it depends on SOP/METT-TC/and Escalation of Force rules (from the military side). The AN/PEQ-15, for example, has a visible laser. If all you want to do is discorage a civilian from being stupid, a laser is a good way to do it.

[bjm300]

Thanks for the info reaper.

[spherojon]

Awesome post. Thanks TR.

Any updates on this topic?

[The Reaper]

Awesome post. Thanks TR.

Any updates on this topic?

What, specifically?

TR

[spherojon]

Specifically any updates in preference in uppers and lowers.

Edit: I will look on the countless pages on updated preference in this section of the forum.
Thanks again for your time.

[The Reaper]

Specifically any updates in preference in uppers and lowers.

Edit: I will look on the countless pages on updated preference in this section of the forum.
Thanks again for your time.

Several manufacturers have been in a hurry recently to crank out products. That has not always been a good thing.

I have used Bravo Company and PWS uppers and been very happy with them.

Barnes Precision Machine seems to build some good solid parts as well.

Good gear.

TR

[Scamilton]

Finally got my tax return in the mail this weekend after tricare misplaced my SSN and an erroneous return was filed using my SSN. As I had initially planned I am in the market for an AR15.

I searched through the various threads and none had really been hit recently in regards to a right out of the box ready to rock AR since the O was reelected and the recent shooting. With dealers everywhere being out of stock until further notice on BCG's and most magazines, I see a fully built AR as my only option rather than building like I had first wanted to do.

LaRue was the biggest name I saw being pushed by the majority of the QP's here. Wanted to know if that was still the case with the mad dash, and if they end up being out of stock or out of price range, is there any others that I should feel confident trying out?

Apologies in advance if I am rehashing something I shouldn't have or overlooked recent information being passed around. I really want to get an AR before the LIBs make one of their bright decisions.

[Huskers15]

A year or so ago during the looming gun legislation, I jumped on purchasing a Del Ton lower, several aluminum mags, a decent trigger, lpk etc. Due to the price of parts I put the build on hold and would like to proceed.

My question is how important is it that I purchase an upper from Del Ton? I'm looking at purchasing a complete upper build because I don't have the tools nor do I trust myself :eek:.

Great information and thanks in advance. :munchin

[The Reaper]

A year or so ago during the looming gun legislation, I jumped on purchasing a Del Ton lower, several aluminum mags, a decent trigger, lpk etc. Due to the price of parts I put the build on hold and would like to proceed.

My question is how important is it that I purchase an upper from Del Ton? I'm looking at purchasing a complete upper build because I don't have the tools nor do I trust myself :eek:.

Great information and thanks in advance. :munchin

Add an upper from whomever you wish.

I currently like LMT, Bravo Company and BPM. There are a lot of good ones out there, but not all are a good return on investment.

If it fits and functions well, you should be GTG.

TR

[Snaquebite]

Husker 15. Post your introduction before posting anymore questions/comments/

[thinker752]

Nice post as stated a copyright is owed to you.

[BryanK]

I'm finally in the market for a lower-end M4gery. The best deal I can find is with Palmetto State Armory (PSA) between their lower kits and uppers. I was thinking about just buying the whole rifle kit they have for $500.00.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/barreled-upper-assemblies/psa-16-carbine-length-chf-m4-5-56-1-7-rifle-kit.html

I've seen elsewhere on PS where PSA was held in pretty good regard. Does anyone have any experience with their lower-end items for casual shooting?

I didn't see any threads where this topic was discussed directly. Thanks for your time.

[The Reaper]

I'm finally in the market for a lower-end M4gery. The best deal I can find is with Palmetto State Armory (PSA) between their lower kits and uppers. I was thinking about just buying the whole rifle kit they have for $500.00.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/barreled-upper-assemblies/psa-16-carbine-length-chf-m4-5-56-1-7-rifle-kit.html

I've seen elsewhere on PS where PSA was held in pretty good regard. Does anyone have any experience with their lower-end items for casual shooting?

I didn't see any threads where this topic was discussed directly. Thanks for your time.

PSA doesn't make anything, AFAIK.

They buy their products from others, add their markings and resell it.

Having said that, their prices are excellent, if what they are selling is what you want.

If I were looking for a MILSPEC upper or a rifle right now, it would probably be Bravo Company.

TR

[BryanK]

Thanks TR.

[cbtengr]

TR, I am in the market for a left handed AR carbine. In the OP you stated "The best ARs I have used lately have come from LMT and Rock River. " Does that assessment still hold true? Thanks! Are there any members on this board that use a left handed mdl. and if so are you happy with it?

[miclo18d]

TR, I am in the market for a left handed AR carbine. In the OP you stated "The best ARs I have used lately have come from LMT and Rock River. " Does that assessment still hold true? Thanks! Are there any members on this board that use a left handed mdl. and if so are you happy with it?

A lefty rifle would be good for an individual but if there ever came a time to actually use it as intended by the 2A, if your weapon became inoperable for any reason, you would have to resort to a righty weapon and have to relearn your techniques. There are also many ways to ambi your rifle.

That said, a lefty AR would give you the feel that we righties get when using. Not saying good or bad, just something to keep in mind.

I personally enjoy doing as much ambi work as possible. It opens up a lot of doors in training and other techniques.

[JJ_BPK]

TR, I am in the market for a left handed AR carbine. In the OP you stated "The best ARs I have used lately have come from LMT and Rock River. " Does that assessment still hold true? Thanks! Are there any members on this board that use a left handed mdl. and if so are you happy with it?

Stag Arms,, A Lefty friend has one and loves it.. He had a shop in the Tampa area build using HIS preferred components..

https://www.stagarms.com/left-handed-upper-halves/

[JamesIkanov]

Hopefully this isn't too much of a necropost.
In the original post you mentioned stainless steel barrels and chrome-moly, but I don't see a mention of nitride/QPQ barrels. I'm personally a huge fan of that particular surface treatment, for both barrels and BCGs, so I'm a bit biased, but do you have an opinion on nitriding?

[The Reaper]

I prefer a MILSPEC chrome lined, cold hammer forged barrel.

The nitride is probably better than no coating.

TR

[bblhead672]

Great info, thanks for posting it. I know so much more about the subject now.
Found the post when I searched for "bravo company" as I am considering their products as an upgrade to my first AR (a S&W MP Sport II). Not that I actually "need" another, better AR, but it's the giving season and i feel a need to give myself something nice!

[Badger52]

Not that I actually "need" another, better AR, but it's the giving season and i feel a need to give myself something nice!I thought briefly about mentioning there's a 12-step program for that but it turns out they're just a bunch of enablers. In the dictionary, see also, 'legos'.