Sheep/Wolves

[Jo Sul]

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

[Jo Sul]

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

[37F5V]

I really enjoy reading his stuff.... In fact we are going to start teaching a class at the 40 level titled "Killology". I'm looking forward to reading it during staffing.

[Goggles Pizano]

Thank you JS, that just made my day. :)

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

WOW! What a great post!

[kgoerz]

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/10/i_only_hang_wit.html

Pasted it in using the insert link tool. Hope it works

[x SF med]

KG-
need to clean up the last 3 characters on the link '): so that it works.

not sharpshooting, just trying to keep a bunch of other guys from busting on ya bro.

[Rumblyguts]

The link works if the user deletes the last three characters in the link :)

edit: uh, ya, what he said

mumble mumble...damn slow short fingers....mumble mumble.....

[Team Sergeant]

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/10/i_only_hang_wit.html

Pasted it in using the insert link tool. Hope it works


Someone beat you to this, probably before your time.;)

I merged the threads.

TS

(Blackfive.net knows who we are also.)

[PSM]

The Sheepdogs

Most humans truly are like sheep
Wanting nothing more than peace to keep
To graze, grow fat and raise their young,
Sweet taste of clover on the tongue.
Their lives serene upon Life’s farm,
They sense no threat nor fear no harm.
On verdant meadows, they forage free
With naught to fear, with naught to flee.
They pay their sheepdogs little heed
For there is no threat; there is no need.

To the flock, sheepdog’s are mysteries,
Roaming watchful round the peripheries.
These fang-toothed creatures bark, they roar
With the fetid reek of the carnivore,
Too like the wolf of legends told,
To be amongst our docile fold.
Who needs sheepdogs? What good are they?
They have no use, not in this day.
Lock them away, out of our sight
We have no need of their fierce might.

But sudden in their midst a beast
Has come to kill, has come to feast
The wolves attack; they give no warning
Upon that calm September morning
They slash and kill with frenzied glee
Their passive helpless enemy
Who had no clue the wolves were there
Far roaming from their Eastern lair.
Then from the carnage, from the rout,
Comes the cry, “Turn the sheepdogs out!”

Thus is our nature but too our plight
To keep our dogs on leashes tight
And live a life of illusive bliss
Hearing not the beast, his growl, his hiss.
Until he has us by the throat,
We pay no heed; we take no note.
Not until he strikes us at our core
Will we unleash the Dogs of War
Only having felt the wolf pack’s wrath
Do we loose the sheepdogs on its path.

And the wolves will learn what we’ve shown before;
We love our sheep, we Dogs of War.

Russ Vaughn
2d Bn, 327th Parachute Infantry Regiment
101st Airborne Division
Vietnam 65-66



Pat

[Intel_Airman]

I just wish more people had his sort of thought process. But then again, maybe they do and are just in denial.

[Team Sergeant]

I just wish more people had his sort of thought process. But then again, maybe they do and are just in denial.

If they did we would not be calling them sheeple.;)

[sg1987]

. . But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. .

Do any of you gents ever find love for the sheep difficult? They can often be quite unlovable.

[Team Sergeant]

Do any of you gents ever find love for the sheep difficult? They can often be quite unlovable.

Anytime that thought or something close to it passed through my mind all I did was think of the children. I and most soldiers I know would trade their lives for a childs.;)

[Pete]

Do any of you gents ever find love for the sheep difficult? They can often be quite unlovable.

Better than goats.

Plus - Life really sucks to be a kid in some parks of the world. Sucks to be a kid in some homes of the USA. Kids I feel sorry for because most of what swirls around them is beyond their control.

Pete

[Books]

I don't know about that. . . just wrapping up S, A, R/R and I've got to say that after a few weeks of no sleep, I tend to like caprines better than bipeds.

Books

[Lothar]

I was given the same reading material when I attended an active shooter school put on by the ALERRT Center out of San Marcos,TX. As a LEO and soldier the article by LTC Grossman really put into words what many of us have believed for years. Great post! To all of my fellow Sheepdogs: Stay safe out there.

[longrange1947]

Anytime that thought or something close to it passed through my mind all I did was think of the children. I and most soldiers I know would trade their lives for a childs.;)

Children are special lambs that can easily grow into sheepdogs. It is our job to give them that opportunity.

[dennisw]

I like the analogy except that it gives certain folks an out. I think it's everyone duty to become a sheep dog if their country needs them.

[Remington Raidr]

Rudyard Kipling
(1865-1936)

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

[Surgicalcric]

I like the analogy except that it gives certain folks an out. I think it's everyone duty to become a sheep dog if their country needs them.

While I concur its everyone's responsibility to do something, not everyone possesses the intestinal fortitude to do what is necessary. Talking the talk isnt walking the walk.

Crip

[Team Sergeant]

While I concur its everyone's responsibility to do something, not everyone possesses the intestinal fortitude to do what is necessary. Talking the talk isnt walking the walk.

Crip

And to add to that I don't want someone next to me that does not want to be there.......

Also some are not fit enough to serve.....

[Backwoods]

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.



That was always my favorite part of that poem.....how true it is. Kipling was an unbelievable poet.

[dennisw]

Talking the talk isnt walking the walk.

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this statement.

I think in a society where we have equal rights under the law, how do we not have equal responsibilty to serve. Granted, some folks are unable to serve in any productive capacity. Furthermore, I'm not talking strickly about combat arms. It's fine to say the sheepdogs will protect the sheep, but how is it the responisibility of some and not all.

TS talks about not wanting to fight in situations where he is unsure of the folks on his left and right. Do they want to be there? Maybe that is the reality of the situation. However, is it equitable for some to risk their lives while others do not? Although there is honor, there is very little equity.

[Peregrino]

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this statement.

I think in a society where we have equal rights under the law, how do we not have equal responsibilty to serve. Granted, some folks are unable to serve in any productive capacity. Furthermore, I'm not talking strickly about combat arms. It's fine to say the sheepdogs will protect the sheep, but how is it the responisibility of some and not all.

TS talks about not wanting to fight in situations where he is unsure of the folks on his left and right. Do they want to be there? Maybe that is the reality of the situation. However, is it equitable for some to risk their lives while others do not? Although there is honor, there is very little equity.

I acknowledge your protestations; I even sympathize a little. I just don't think you're accepting the realities of human nature. Despite the sentiments expressed in the D of I, all men are not created equal. Indisputable FACT: not everyone can be a sheepdog. Actually, I would contend that very few people are endowed (by temperament or training) with those unique qualities that predispose them to being a "sheepdog". (Even then, you never know how the dice will fall until the moment arrives.) This might be the one time Karl Marx got the Socialist ideal right: "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" (or something like that ;) ). Somebody else said "the burden falls heaviest on those best able to bear it". IOW - life's not fair. I'm with TS on this one. I don't want sheep backing my play against the wolves either. Peregrino

[Surgicalcric]

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this statement...

I would've thought given the context of the discussion the relevance would have been apparent. Nevertheless, its easy to talk about being a protector or a warrior. Its often different when someone is thrust into that role or when they chose it and cant live up to it. Jessica Lynch! Need I say more?

As for your comment, "Do they want to be there," those that signed on the dotted line wanted to be in the military and the military is a war-fighting machine. We aren't out on the highway planting flowers... That whole, "I signed for the college money" line makes me wanna choke the life from someone...

I concur with both TR and Peregrino; when the bullets are flying I want to know I can trust the men around me.

Crip

[dennisw]

I don't want someone next to me that does not want to be there

Actually I was paraphrasing TS's comment from above. I wasn't questioning whether or not folks who have signed the dotted line want to be there or not. With that being said, whether or not one has the ability or desire to be a sheep dog, does that diminish their responsibility to serve?

This service may not be in combat arms, but I believe as citizens there is still a duty which is required of every male citizen( I believe it is males only). We now have a volunteer army. When I volunteered, there was still a draft and most of the folks in my basic training unit were draftees. They may not of wanted to be there, but they were for the most part the best soldiers in our group.

Would they march towards the sound of battle? I don't know. However, I was a volunteer, but I never had to answer that question either, and I think it is truly unanswered until you are actually are there.

To reiterate, if someone views themselves as a sheep, does that mean they no longer have a duty as a citizen to serve and protect their country when their service is needed? If only the sheepdogs serve, once they return, should they not be afforded some special privileges for providing this service and protection?

[Peregrino]

Shades of "Starship Troopers"? :munchin IIRC that was a Fascist society. Certainly not compatible with American ideals. We have an all volunteer military. Even alternative forms of service, e.g. Peace Corps, requires volunteerism. When only a small percentage of the population is inclined/motivated to serve (in any capacity) what do you do with the rest? Would you disenfranchise everyone else? Danger Will Robinson; that road leads to tyranny too.

You're right to question the (potential) inequality (and until the "moment of truth", which doesn't come for everybody, that's all it is - a potential inequality) of the sacrifice/payment, but the sheep can contribute too. Even among those who do volunteer - have you thought about the mindset that puts people into CS and CSS vs. CA units? (Before I get nuked - yes, in 28 years I met a couple of sheepdogs in support units; no, we won't discuss how out-of-place they were.) CS and CSS units don't have traditional "sheepdog"missions. Yet those units and (many of) the people who man them fulfill their obligation to "pay the debts free men owe their society (paraphrase)". Rumor has it some of them are even discovering heretofor untapped sheepdog potential. Would you denigrate their service because it's not "sheepdog" enough?

Peregrino

[dennisw]

When only a small percentage of the population is inclined/motivated to serve (in any capacity) what do you do with the rest? Would you disenfranchise everyone else?

This is my concern. I read an email about a woman whose son was deployed and she wore a t-shirt to the pta meeting which read in essence "My son is fighting in Iraq while your's is out partying." Went over like a turd in a punchbowl.

Although funny, there's an underlying sense of bitterness there. This bitterness stems IMHO from a sense of inequity.

I don't think so much about disenfranchising those who do not serve. I'm looking more at the other side of the ledger. I believe there should be greater rewards for those who do.

Americans are all about fairness and equity. I truly believe this, and from a sense of equity, if some give there all, our society should honor that. When the sheepdog returns, our society should honor them with more a yellow ribbon.

Although not completely on point, in other societies, there were economic rewards associated with acts of valor. For instance in Greece, the winners of the Olympics were given the stephonos or wreath. This was just a symbol. They were also exempted from taxes, their children's higher education was paid for, a statue was created of them and a gate into the city was created for them.

I appreciate the efforts of Mentor Warrior and the special operations foundation, but I believe the education of the children of fallen warriors should be paid for by our society without having to go through a charity. I think our warriors should be given preferential tax treatment (not just when they are deployed). Can an honorable society do any less?

I'm not denigrating the role of the Sheepdog, but if society as a whole asks or allows the sheepdog only to put themselves in harms' way, then a reciporal debt is owed, and I personally do not believe this diminishes the honor.

However, there is still the answered question which is inherent in your comment:

pay the debts free men owe their society

When is the last time you heard the above concept discussed? This concept was discussed regularly when I was a kid - you know when Lincoln was president. :D But seriously, I believe the sheepdog analogy glosses over this to a certain degree.

However, it does answer one of the questions I had. When folks ask me how my sons in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing, I try to answer them acurately and provide a certain amount of details to flesh out the story. I stopped doing that as most have a tendancy to blanche an unhealthy shade. :D I guess sheep really are not interested in the details.

Finally, I still do not like the attitude of some who seem to shrug when they read about a soldier dying by saying,"Well he volunteered, didn't he", as if it's just a sheepdog dead on the side of the road. This epitomizes the complete disconnect between the minset of a portion of our fellow citizens and the concept of duty, honor, country. Yeah he or she volunteered. He or she volunteered as a free man/woman to do their duty and made the ultimate sacrifice for our benefit and we all should honor that in substance and in form.

[x SF med]

The interesting thing about this whole thread is that we are (for the most part) sheepdogs preaching to other sheepdogs... or to parents of sheepdogs. How do we get others to understand? Is it worth the effort to try to get the sheep to understand, or do we just do what we do, as we are genetically programmed (it seems) to protect the sheep?

Nothing profound, just observations/questions that are rattling around in my steel pot placement area.

[sg1987]

Nothing profound, just observations/questions that are rattling around in my steel pot placement area.

What’s a steel pot?:D

[Team Sergeant]

Its often different when someone is thrust into that role or when they chose it and cant live up to it. Jessica Lynch! Need I say more?

Crip

You need to learn the "combat" role vs. the "service support" roles. I would not expect support soldiers to go toe to toe with hardcore fighters and win, especially when their leaders led them into an ambush from hell. That is the role of the combat MOS's, to fight and win in those sort of situations.

Without those support soldiers we (the combat MOS's) could not hope to win any war. They have a job to do and we have ours. Not every soldiers is given million dollar training and years of combat schooling. Remember that.

TS

[Team Sergeant]

To reiterate, if someone views themselves as a sheep, does that mean they no longer have a duty as a citizen to serve and protect their country when their service is needed? If only the sheepdogs serve, once they return, should they not be afforded some special privileges for providing this service and protection?

There are greater rewards, like every time you look in the mirror and know that you served with honor, that you and other like you stood together to stem the tide of terror and fear while others huddled behind protest signs and clouds of marijuana hurling insults at the very men and women that volunteered to stand between them and a gruesome beheading.

We have forever earned the right to be called a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine and the “reward” being that those men and women can take pride that fact that while some left wing liberal professor or journalist write down our exploits in some slanted fashion we take heart knowing it is these same left wing cowards are the same that if confronted by the same evil men would go out on their knees screaming like a three year old with their hair on fire begging for their lives.

While some read about our exploits, we and only we will be telling our children and grandchildren that it was us that faced the evil men while others read about it. It was us that made history and while history may not remember who wrote it, it does remember who fought, we will not be forgotten, ever.

De Oppresso Liber,

Team Sergeant



“The General paused. His eagle like eyes swept over the hillside. He said with pride, "There is one great thing that you men will all be able to say after this war is over and you are home once again. You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your Granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana." No, Sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your Granddaddy rode with the Great Third Army and a Son-of-a-Goddamned-Bitch named Georgie Patton!"”
General George Patton

[sg1987]

Well said TS. Extremely WELL Said!! Hoooooooah!

[Surgicalcric]

You need to learn the "combat" role vs. the "service support" roles. I would not expect support soldiers to go toe to toe with hardcore fighters and win, especially when their leaders led them into an ambush from hell. That is the role of the combat MOS's, to fight and win in those sort of situations.

Without those support soldiers we (the combat MOS's) could not hope to win any war. They have a job to do and we have ours. Not every soldiers is given million dollar training and years of combat schooling. Remember that.

TS

I am well aware of the difference between CA, CS, and CSS personnel. I was simply trying to reinforce my point that sometime people find themselves forced into a situation where they never intended themselves to be, such was the instance PFC Lynch's unit.

Nothing more or less.

Crip

[Team Sergeant]

I am well aware of the difference between CA, CS, and CSS personnel. I was simply trying to reinforce my point that sometime people find themselves forced into a situation where they never intended themselves to be, such was the instance PFC Lynch's unit.

Nothing more or less.

Crip

I doubt that PFC Lynch "never" thought she might someday be facing an armed and evil adversary. I am sure once they knew they were "lost" that they quickly realized they were in deep shit. Since it started this has been a fight without a front and most understand that danger can come from any direction.

This is also the reason we arm our support troops, not to go on the offensive but to defend themselves well enough until the combat troops arrive.;)

[Surgicalcric]

...This is also the reason we arm our support troops, not to go on the offensive but to defend themselves well enough until the combat troops arrive.;)

Completely agree MSG.

[dennisw]

There are greater rewards, like every time you look in the mirror and know that you served with honor, that you and other like you stood together to stem the tide of terror and fear while others huddled behind protest signs and clouds of marijuana hurling insults at the very men and women that volunteered to stand between them and a gruesome beheading.

We have forever earned the right to be called a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine and the “reward” being that those men and women can take pride that fact that while some left wing liberal professor or journalist write down our exploits in some slanted fashion we take heart knowing it is these same left wing cowards are the same that if confronted by the same evil men would go out on their knees screaming like a three year old with their hair on fire begging for their lives.

While some read about our exploits, we and only we will be telling our children and grandchildren that it was us that faced the evil men while others read about it. It was us that made history and while history may not remember who wrote it, it does remember who fought, we will not be forgotten, ever.

De Oppresso Liber,

Team Sergeant

There is no discounting the truth in the quote above. The value of which is impossible to well...value. In Don Quixote when he is on his way home he tells his companion, Sancho Panza, that the earth holds two things in its bosom which are of the highest value - freedom and honor - and a man ought to die for either. The above quote smacks of something Miquel Cerventes might have written.

I believe I understand the passion behind the quote. He wants this service to be peerless, without the stigma of personal gain; to be sacrosanct. The humble acts of a free people which offers themselves for what? Probably the most noblest of motives: love of country, courage on behalf of brothers in arms, hatred of the bullies who try and use the helpless to further their own nefarious plans, selfless sacrifice for something which when history has ended will be one of the diamonds shining in the mire of human malaise: The American experiment providing a glimpse of the heights a people or civilization can achieve.

By honoring those who voluntarily put themselves in harms way on our behalf, we as a nation do ourselves proud, and in my opinion a simple act of generosity does not taint or diminish the heroioc acts of our soldiers. On the other hand, it allows a us the chance at nobility; an opportunity to express our capacity for life by evidencing our appreciation of a sacred thing through our generosity. It is also a practical solution. You, our noble warriors, who can no longer provide for your children because of your service on our behalf, allow us the privilege of doing this as to do any less is a blemish on our honor, and if we do not take up this obligation, we did not deserve your service at all.

[Hipshot]

:D
You do have a way with words - well spoken. Has wayward QP son checked in yet?

[dennisw]

Has wayward QP son checked in yet?

Finally got a call. Seems they had to wait on some pilots after St. Paddy's day before they could make the final leg. First deployment is officially in the books.

[The Reaper]

I would just add that the parents who have lost their loved ones who served, and who go on television berating the POTUS and the war appear to me to be dishonoring their children's sacrifice and their memory.

The force is all volunteer, those who go all chose to serve. If their kids felt that serving in wartime was the right thing to do, the parents protesting after the fact seems to take away from the nobility of their service and sacrifice. The military does not pick when to go to war or where, the elected civilian leadership does that. I am certain that in almost all cases, their kids did the very best they could and the chain of command protected tham as best they could while working to accomplish the mission. If there is anyone to be angry with or to protest, logically, it should be the Islamic terrorists who planted the VBIED or who shot their kids. Where is the outrage against them? Can you imagine a WW II Gold Star Mom protesting FDR, rather than the Germans or the Japanese who killed their son? How about a group claiming that Pearl Harbor was staged, that it wasn't really the Japanese, and the US Government was actually behind the attack?

I have kids myself, and I would miss them in a way only a parent could know, but I would never second guess their choice to serve, especially after they were lost.

Cindy Sheehan, simple-minded sheeple, has totally dedicated herself to dishonoring the sacrifice of her son, whatever she may think she is doing, and is being used in the process, like a borrowed mule.

The Sixties liberals continue to try and ruin this country, and they as well as their legacy of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

The group of nutcases calling themselves socialists, marxists, communists, and anarchists at the core of this movement are using the sheeple to damage the foundations of this country and to attempt to revive failed political experiments. These people are actually Anti-American, whatever we do or fail to, and need to review history before slinking back under whatever rock they crawled out from underneath.

These assclowns will be the downfall of freedom in this country, when no cause is worthy of service anymore and no one is willing to pay the price.

Sorry for the rant.

TR

[frostfire]

Anytime that thought or something close to it passed through my mind all I did was think of the children. I and most soldiers I know would trade their lives for a childs.;)

Plus - Life really sucks to be a kid in some parks of the world. Sucks to be a kid in some homes of the USA. Kids I feel sorry for because most of what swirls around them is beyond their control.


The conditions are beyond their control, but they're very much in control of how they respond to it. Maybe I'm slow today, but until which age or numbers of poor choices made are they still considered kids? 9? 17? Kids grow up real fast today (physically and amount of exposure to knowedge), and they can get real nasty beyond belief.

I am a proponent of free will, you play, you pay etc. Yes, sheep parents will likely condition the kids to be sheeps as well, but don't the kids have mind of their own? nature vs. nurture?

To stretch it even furher, 5-years-old kids who are conditioned by HAMAS and similar group to be a US-hater. Does "leave the kids alone, it's not their war," still apply? Don't they at some point make that conscious choice and therefore are accountable for any consequences. OK, maybe this one is out of topic.

Please note that I'm not challenging anyone's stance. Rather, I'm seeking clarity to maintain a clear conviction in the path I've chosen:
we just do what we do, as we are genetically programmed (it seems) to protect the sheep?

[frostfire]

Despite the sentiments expressed in the D of I, all men are not created equal. Indisputable FACT: not everyone can be a sheepdog. Actually, I would contend that very few people are endowed (by temperament or training) with those unique qualities that predispose them to being a "sheepdog". (Even then, you never know how the dice will fall until the moment arrives.) This might be the one time Karl Marx got the Socialist ideal right: "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" (or something like that ;) ). Somebody else said "the burden falls heaviest on those best able to bear it". IOW - life's not fair. I'm with TS on this one. I don't want sheep backing my play against the wolves either. Peregrino

Nothing but the truth. To quote an ancient book:
"to whom much is given, much is demanded"

[KClapp]

A very interesting thread.

In 1974 I enlisted, not because I was looking for something from the nation I served, but to have the honor of serving with those of like mind. The writers of the movie "Blackhawk Down" expressed it best when Hoot made the comment to Eversman, "When the bullets start flyin' then all the politics and shit go out the window and it's about the man next to ya."

As a sheepdog, it is not the approval, admiration, or affirmation of the sheep that I seek. I do what I do for the approval, admiration, and affirmation of the Shepherd.

[sg1987]

As a sheepdog, it is not the approval, admiration, or affirmation of the sheep that I seek. I do what I do for the approval, admiration, and affirmation of the Shepherd.


WOW.....

[bandycpa]

Originally Posted by KClapp
As a sheepdog, it is not the approval, admiration, or affirmation of the sheep that I seek. I do what I do for the approval, admiration, and affirmation of the Shepherd.

Oh yeah. That one's definitely going in the motivational file for me.


Bandy

[CoLawman]

Finally got a call. Seems they had to wait on some pilots after St. Paddy's day before they could make the final leg. First deployment is officially in the books.

Great news Dennis! Hopefully, son #2 returns soon as well!

[RTK]

Seemed like a good day to revist this paper, given the circumstances and discussions from the past 24 hours.

[x-factor]

I think its important to differentiate those who shirk their responsibility to the community from those who's talents better serve the community in capacities other than guardian. We should not denigrate people simply because their calling is different from ours. A vibrant society needs all types living in harmony, not one class lording its accomplishments over the other.

Would we as a society have been better served if Johnny Cash had stayed in the Air Force? No. A nation of all artists and no soldiers is a nation not long for this world, but a nation of all soldiers and no artists is not worth living in anyway.

I also think its often a false distinction to say that one has to choose between being a "sheepdog" and being a "sheep". The ancient Greek ideal was that the ideal man should be a master of the lyre and the spear, a man of words and deeds. That I think is the ideal to strive for: to be a whole person, whatever occupation your talents may dictate.

*****

On the Combat vs Combat Support thing...one of my favorite things about working in the SOF community is the genuine respect and comraderie (at least in my experience) thats shown to intel officers by the teams. My thanks and respect to TS for expressing that here in this thread.

[Team Sergeant]

On the Combat vs Combat Support thing...one of my favorite things about working in the SOF community is the genuine respect and comraderie (at least in my experience) thats shown to intel officers by shooters. My thanks and respect to TS for expressing that here in this thread.

We in Special Forces are not "shooters" we are not "operators". Others coined those phrases simply because they themselves could not be called Special Forces soldiers.

We are Special Forces soldiers, not to be confused with a Ranger working in a Special Forces unit that is not Special Forces qualified, they call themselves operators or shooters.

This has been a ProfessionalSoldiers announcement brought to you by the Special Forces soldiers, past, present and future.

Team Sergeant

[x-factor]

I meant shooters in the broad sense of combat SOF (including but not limited to SF)...

Nevertheless, point taken and editing done.

[Ret10Echo]

I would just add that the parents who have lost their loved ones who served, and who go on television berating the POTUS and the war appear to me to be dishonoring their children's sacrifice and their memory.


Cindy Sheehan, simple-minded sheeple, has totally dedicated herself to dishonoring the sacrifice of her son, whatever she may think she is doing, and is being used in the process, like a borrowed mule.

TR

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070529/ts_alt_afp/usiraqwarprotest_070529114116

"The most devastating conclusion that I reached this morning, however, was that Casey did indeed die for nothing," she said in reference to her son, who was killed in Iraq in April 2004.


She does not, nor will she ever understand.

I pray her son is now at peace.

[Obevokenobi]

I've searched the forums and this seems the most appropriate one for this thought. I have a loved one serving in Iraq right now and he mentioned this sheep analogy to me before. I have actually used the analogy several times in court to persuade jurors to convict a defendant and to render a stiffer sentence. I place the jurors in the role of sheep, who for that day on the jury have the opportunity to step up and be sheepdogs and help protect society.

But I digress. My family member in Iraq has mentioned that during his time over there, he has noticed the majority of the populace is sheep. They do not want to harm our troops or the U.S. in any way. They simpy want to provide a better life for their families. However, they have spent so many generations existing on what has been given to them. They have no natural sense of how to excel to provide a better life for their families. He believes it may take generations before they understand this concept.

I find this interesting because I think when most people read the article by Grossman, their thoughts tend toward U.S. society (maybe that is just my bias as a U.S. citizen). But here we have the analogy applying to a culture not our own.

[Meridian]

edit

[sg1987]

Shootings turn out differently when five sheepdogs are in the room!!!


LAS VEGAS - A man on a balcony over the New York-New York casino floor opened fire on the gamblers below early Friday, wounding four people before he was tackled by off-duty military reservists, police said. A fifth person was hurt in a crush of people fleeing the casino.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070706/ap_on_re_us/casino_shooting;_ylt=AhNQTZw4gmUAUoT5tEdHAZ6s0NUE

[Tomahawk202]

April 1998, a skell I locked up got out of jail and came calling at my home. My wife and child were home. I had a beer in one hand, and was flipping burgers with the other. This guy opens fire on me out of the clear blue sky.
With pure instinct, I rolled into the sliding glass doors of my small apartment and grabbed my H&K USP .40, and shot this guy twice. He shot at me 12 times, didn't hit a thing, but I ......" front site post, squeeze, surprise."
My very first shootout. Anyways, my Corporal came to me afterwards and gave me a book. It was this one, called " On Killing...." I have got to say, I read it from cover to cover on my two weeks administrative leave, and I felt better about myself. Alot better about myself.
Thanks for posting this again, for all to see. It really brings things into perspective.

[NousDefionsDoc]

April 1998, a skell I locked up got out of jail and came calling at my home. My wife and child were home. I had a beer in one hand, and was flipping burgers with the other. This guy opens fire on me out of the clear blue sky.
With pure instinct, I rolled into the sliding glass doors of my small apartment and grabbed my H&K USP .40, and shot this guy twice. He shot at me 12 times, didn't hit a thing, but I ......" front site post, squeeze, surprise."
My very first shootout. Anyways, my Corporal came to me afterwards and gave me a book. It was this one, called " On Killing...." I have got to say, I read it from cover to cover on my two weeks administrative leave, and I felt better about myself. Alot better about myself.
Thanks for posting this again, for all to see. It really brings things into perspective.
Will you have to shoot him again tomorrow?

[NousDefionsDoc]

I myself am not a sheepdog. My hair does not hang in my eyes, I am not lovable, I'm not a pet to be petted and I don't give a shit about protecting sheep.

[Ret10Echo]

Shootings turn out differently when five sheepdogs are in the room!!!


LAS VEGAS - A man on a balcony over the New York-New York casino floor opened fire on the gamblers below early Friday, wounding four people before he was tackled by off-duty military reservists, police said. A fifth person was hurt in a crush of people fleeing the casino.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070706/ap_on_re_us/casino_shooting;_ylt=AhNQTZw4gmUAUoT5tEdHAZ6s0NUE

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070709/ap_on_re_us/casino_shooting;_ylt=AqytRiablokO57bjHb_cF8FvzwcF

By DALE WETZEL, Associated Press Writer
Mon Jul 9, 4:25 AM ET

BISMARCK, N.D. - At first, Justin Lampert thought the popping sounds he heard were coming from an electronic game at the Las Vegas casino where he had been eating a hot dog. When a crowd of panicked people stampeded past, he realized it was something more serious.

It was then the Iraq war veteran saw a bearded, older man, dressed in a light-colored trench coat, walking behind the fleeing casino-goers. Lampert said the man's hair was tousled as if he'd just gotten out of bed, and his stroll and nonchalant demeanor was a sharp contrast to the chaos.

[Tomahawk202]

Will you have to shoot him again tomorrow?

They guy got 10 1/2 to 20 years in prison. He lost alot of blood but didn't die. So yeah, hopefully I won't have to shoot him again anytime soon. I got him in the thigh and liver, so I didn't make things comfortable for him. But I was a rookie, skills are sharper now.

[whitesnake]

We in Special Forces are not "shooters" we are not "operators". Others coined those phrases simply because they themselves could not be called Special Forces soldiers.

We are Special Forces soldiers, not to be confused with a Ranger working in a Special Forces unit that is not Special Forces qualified, they call themselves operators or shooters.

This has been a ProfessionalSoldiers announcement brought to you by the Special Forces soldiers, past, present and future.

Team Sergeant

OUTSTANDING! That's why the Special Forces Soldier's community is like no other. That's why we still communicate and hold dear the relationships we made in 1969 and travel to spend time in thier company a couple of times a year. We remember and immortilize those we have served with and those we have lost. We also evaluate today's Special Forces Soldiers and realize that they make us proud. Remember, no matter what anyone says, there are only 2 branches in the Army, Special Forces and support.

[Dirt Gallo]

waking this one back up for posterity's sake....

[charlietwo]

A sign of the apocalypse is when the sheep start telling the sheepdogs how best to protect the flock. :rolleyes: Just look at Ted Kennedy and Jack Murtha. Those two sheep wouldn't know a rusty knife in their neck from a bottle of expensive whiskey in their mouth.

Summary-- F*** the ACLU and every other socialist in the western world trying to bring about 'multiculturalism' and the death of the true shepherds. Only when the sheep watch their friends being devoured do they realize the necessity of us filthy mongoloids.

Ugh... I'm stopping before I get more irrational :p

[charlietwo]

I myself am not a sheepdog. My hair does not hang in my eyes, I am not lovable, I'm not a pet to be petted and I don't give a shit about protecting sheep.

I would be willing to argue otherwise... You can't choose not to be a "sheepdog" if it's in your blood. By simple fact of your chosen path in life alone, I would venture to guess you would not sit idly by while the wolves are in the fold. I think I understand what you're trying to convey, although it's less a frame of mind, and more of a natural affinity of empathy towards your fellow man.

Slap me if I'm wrong and out of line :p

[Mike]

Nothing personal, but the concept of a feelgood book and two weeks off for wounding someone who attacks you andyour family escapes me.

Maybe extra range training....

In Vietnam we just had to go right on to the next one-I feel cheated.

An enemy who is still alive can still hurt your kids.

[3SoldierDad]

I myself am not a sheepdog. My hair does not hang in my eyes, I am not lovable, I'm not a pet to be petted and I don't give a shit about protecting sheep.

Some just want to kill wolves...

That's honorable...


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

[StormBringer]

Whole-heartedly agree. And there are plenty of wolves who require killing. As someone who has many non-infantry types in the unit (it's a composite company) we have found quite a few sheepdogs amongst the CSS. Of course there are more who, unfortunately, fit the typical stereotype. I had to almost be physically restrained when told "I only joined for the college money . . . I never thought I would get deployed!" by one particular soldier. They are all coming around though. I think the shock of a whole new command team and the introduction of a mortar platoon to fill them out was a little too much for some of them to bear. In any case, the point of my post was to pass on this website:

http://www.killology.com/index.htm

Its a research group founded by LTC Grossman. Im sure there is some interesting reading available.

[jillyz12]

I've never posted here, but I hope it's okay to quickly tell all of you how grateful this sheep is for your presence in the world. I can't begin to fathom the strength of character it must take to do what you do. God bless every single one of you!

It doesn't surprise me to know that many of our fellow Americans don't "get" what you do, and I feel like I should apologize for them. Some sheep have tiny brains, I guess. lol But for me, and others like me, you ARE heroes....guardian angels, really. I thank God for you guys, and I am totally in awe of you. Your jobs must be hard enough without the disapproval of people who are clueless about the true nature of terrorism and the methods that are needed to stop it. But you are loved and appreciated even if you rarely hear about it.

I hope this is at least a little encouraging to you. I for one will never be able to thank all of you enough.

God bless the sheepdogs!

Jill

[The Reaper]

I've never posted here, but I hope it's okay to quickly tell all of you how grateful this sheep is for your presence in the world. I can't begin to fathom the strength of character it must take to do what you do. God bless every single one of you!

It doesn't surprise me to know that many of our fellow Americans don't "get" what you do, and I feel like I should apologize for them. Some sheep have tiny brains, I guess. lol But for me, and others like me, you ARE heroes....guardian angels, really. I thank God for you guys, and I am totally in awe of you. Your jobs must be hard enough without the disapproval of people who are clueless about the true nature of terrorism and the methods that are needed to stop it. But you are loved and appreciated even if you rarely hear about it.

I hope this is at least a little encouraging to you. I for one will never be able to thank all of you enough.

God bless the sheepdogs!

Jill

Thanks for the kind words.

Please take the time to read the rules for the board and introduce yourself in the proper place before posting again.

TR