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[QUOTE=x_sf_med]
The first- there are 2 spaces after a period, always.
QUOTE]
x_sf_med,
I regret that I must inform you that a grammar rule that I too have long held as sacrosanct is no longer. It apparently went the way of the typewriter; never mind that I can't seem to keep myself from doing it anyway. I learned to type on a manual carriage return typewriter and old fingers have a hard time learning new tricks.
FMI, see http://www.webword.com/reports/period.html
v/r
Books
The Reaper
12-04-2006, 21:08
[QUOTE=x_sf_med]
The first- there are 2 spaces after a period, always.
QUOTE]
x_sf_med,
I regret that I must inform you that a grammar rule that I too have long held as sacrosanct is no longer. It apparently went the way of the typewriter; never mind that I can't seem to keep myself from doing it anyway. I learned to type on a manual carriage return typewriter and old fingers have a hard time learning new tricks.
FMI, see http://www.webword.com/reports/period.html
v/r
Books
Not according to Strunk and White, "The Elements of Style", Fourth Edition, which is the most common and accepted style guide.
Your cite is referring to the internet and users of proportional type fonts.
Your professional papers should reflect spacing as per Strunk and White.
TR
x SF med
12-05-2006, 07:30
[QUOTE=x_sf_med]
The first- there are 2 spaces after a period, always.
QUOTE]
x_sf_med,
I regret that I must inform you that a grammar rule that I too have long held as sacrosanct is no longer. It apparently went the way of the typewriter; never mind that I can't seem to keep myself from doing it anyway. I learned to type on a manual carriage return typewriter and old fingers have a hard time learning new tricks.
FMI, see http://www.webword.com/reports/period.html
v/r
Books
Books-
You really need to get the Harbrace College Handbook, The Elements of Style, Politics and the English Language, A Brief History of the English Language, Grammar and Style, and the MLA Handbook - these are the rulebooks by which all professional and scholarly are judged. It doesn't matter if the editions you get are a little old; the basic elements of grammar, style and punctuation do not change very quickly - and using a slightly outdated style is better than being a language maverick in the military. If you might wonder why I go postal about language - well, I do have a degree in English Literature, Language and Rhetoric, a supposedly useless degree by business standards, but, colleagues and co-workers seem to flock to me when proof reading or rewording is required... I would be happy to debate written English in another forum, should you or any of the other candidates so desire - ok?
Oh yeah - those 'web-style' guides are for lazy people who aren't motivated enough to really learn their native language - have you seen the barbaric things people do to language on the web?
English 101 rant suspended for now - but I'm fairly certain it will be returning soon to a thread on this board.
Gentlemen,
While I personnally agree with Strunk and White's wee book in all things, I was clued into this change by a coworker whose expertise in such matters is pretty close to complete.
I continue to follow the old rules (and have had editors change them on my grant proposals in the past), but not everyone does. The Economist magazine, for instance, has taken to the new rule.
As for the web reference, point taken. It could have been better.
v/r
Books.
x SF med
12-05-2006, 15:40
Books-
The MLA Handbook is the standard. The Economist, while a fine periodical, is not the authority on grammar, style and usage. The guy changing your grant proposals may have control issues.
The Reaper
12-05-2006, 16:01
1. This is the Introductions thread. The grammar thread properly belongs elsewhere.
2. A point has been made about the use of correct grammar.
3. Not everyone here has the benefit of advanced education.
4. I am a two space guy as well, but we are belaboring a very small point in the big scheme of things. For example, the board code reduces double spaces to single, so it is impossible to tell who is complying, or even cares.
5. Try to remain focused, and keep the larger purpose of the board and this thread in mind.
6. X, you can bring your "Harbrace Handbook" and "Elements of Style" over to my place for grammar and style arguments anytime.:D
7. On with the introductions, and try to keep them readable.;)
TR
Thanks TR I was starting wonder when you guys were going to send him to the principals office. If you check this it might not have the right syntax, grammar or whatever, I don't care, just as long as you understand what I am trying to say. I was in SF for 24 years and can't remember any time a team was diqualified for a mission because improper use of the English language.
I guess I'll post again when I get out of detention. . .
cheers,
Books
Team Sergeant
12-05-2006, 18:27
IIRC We have a resident English Teacher on here........
I'm also going to move this to its own thread......
Come out come out english teacher......;)
TS
That was me, but I'm sure you mean someone else :p :D
CPTAUSRET
12-05-2006, 20:30
IIRC We have a resident English Teacher on here........
I'm also going to move this to its own thread......
Come out come out english teacher......;)
TS
Would this be someone I know well?
x SF med
12-05-2006, 20:37
Help!! We're in need of grammar instruction.
x SF med
12-05-2006, 20:39
Thanks TR I was starting wonder when you guys were going to send him to the principals office. If you check this it might not have the right syntax, grammar or whatever, I don't care, just as long as you understand what I am trying to say. I was in SF for 24 years and can't remember any time a team was diqualified for a mission because improper use of the English language.
BamBam-
10th was always tight on missions when I was there, and the BC was a bit of a stickler for little things, The written mechanics of your Mission Plan could get the team scrubbed.
Bill Harsey
12-05-2006, 20:42
I had a pretty advanced education, we had to forge our own iron chisels to carve symbols in the big rocks.
Then they came out with alphabets that used letters, school got a lot harder.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
12-05-2006, 20:45
Well unless we are going to submit this site for publication, as long as the message is clear I think we might want to deal with the substance rather than the form. Sort of reminds me of an old first shirt that held formation one day and was busy chewing out a young troop for making a dumb mistake. Seems the lad had picked up only one bayonet from the arms room when the first shirt had asked him to pick up two. If I remember the quote exactly it was, " I said 2 you dumb bastard that is T U E, 2! No English teacher was really needed, the message was received and understood. So while I can appreciate everyone's zeal for the care, use, preservation, and proper execution of the English language worrying about the space between a period and the next word in a sentence is a little like pole vaulting over mouse turds. Misplaced periods more properly belong in the medical forum. Just my opinion.
BTW my wife was an English teacher, so you can see how much has rubbed off on me:D
x SF med
12-05-2006, 20:56
Apologies for any offense, inadvertently offered, Col M., et al. First posts are first impressions, and the young men who state a desire to join SF in their introductions should be paying enough attention to detail to at least hold errors to the occasional typo, avoiding blatantly poor use of their native tongue. I know I blast the kids on grammar and usage in the Intro section - but rarely (except as a goof) in the deeper sections of the site, for the reason you state - clarity of communication.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
12-05-2006, 21:04
[QUOTE=x_sf_med]ApologiesQUOTE]
What apology, no apologies are needed-at least not for me. I am basically in awe of those that have the abilities to be able to use English correctly. It was my worst subject in school, still is something I do not excel at, and to this day I have PTSD (Participle and Tense Stress Disorder) from high school. If there was ever a subject I hated, dreaded, avoided at all costs it was English, English Lit, English Comp and most of all my senior class English teacher. I never had any problem being understood, although the eloquence of my delivery was often somewhat lacking.
x SF med
12-05-2006, 21:07
COL M, as to your self stated lack of eloquence - BS, respectfully, IMHO.
Misplaced periods more properly belong in the medical forum. Just my opinion.
BTW my wife was an English teacher, so you can see how much has rubbed off on me:D
LOL!
Sir, neither your eloquence or delivery is lacking.
x SF med
12-05-2006, 21:19
LOL!
Sir, neither your eloquence or delivery is lacking.
Gypsy-
Should be 'nor' there, not 'or' - we're going to have to call out the grammar gremlins to haunt you in your sleep. :D
Gypsy-
Should be 'nor' there, not 'or' - we're going to have to call out the grammar gremlins to haunt you in your sleep. :D
Well damn, I had 'nor' and changed it.
I'll need guards to help me sleep safe tonight. LOL!
Two space guy here as well! Taught myself to type on a typewriter using a 1970's typing manual. This is what happens when you let geeks mess with style, they start talking about "proportional fonts" (I'm a geek, I have a geek undergrad:) ).
Nice thread spawn, love the thread title!
I know how to use my native tongue.........
It helps me speak and pronounce words and at least one other thing I won't go into details on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but I am not talented enough to write with it. However I did know a girl who could tie knots in a cherry stem.
Roycroft201
12-06-2006, 01:52
Calling Roycroft201
Here I is, Sir ! :D
I was following this discussion in its other location.
I was thinking that here, on the site of the Professional Soldiers, there are:
1). numerous authors (QPs and others)
2). QPs with degrees in English
3). spouses with degrees in English (Mrs. Moroney and Dr. Andreasen)
4). teachers of English (Huey14 and myself)
5). a helluva lot of very smart people
And these are just the folks that I can think of at this very late hour ! (Forgive me for those I have overlooked.):(
x_sf_med, I hope you will continue to instruct new members in the Introduction thread that ProfessionalSoldiers.com does set the bar a bit higher when communicating and posting here. (Or we can threaten them with my red pen ! :p )
Considering I was pissed half the time after lunch, I think that should be "teacher" in quote marks for me. :D
I had a pretty advanced education, we had to forge our own iron chisels to carve symbols in the big rocks.
Then they came out with alphabets that used letters, school got a lot harder.
When they came out with paper, that must have really been confusing...
brownapple
12-06-2006, 06:24
Hmmm... it seems we do have a number of folks with degrees and experience in this area. I have also taught English and currently own and run a training company in which part of what we do is work with corporate clients in improving their writing skills in English.
There are lots and lots of source materials for grammar and style. Based on my personal and professional experience in the corporate world, the current "bibles" are the MLA Formatting and Style Guide (available online via Purdue University) and the various Grammar in Use texts by Raymond Murphy.
Jack Lynch's Guide to Grammar and Style may be the most practical and easiest guide to use.
Grammar and style does change, and sometimes rapidly. To me, effective writing (or any communication) should be judged by audience comprehension. Does the audience clearly and easily understand the message accurately? If the answer is yes, the communication has been effective. If not, it hasn't. Structure, spelling, use of punctuation, tenses, prepositions, articles, etc. can all affect how easily the message is understood. Double spacing after a period is unlikely to do that.
:cool:
Rumblyguts
12-06-2006, 07:59
Hmmm... it seems we do have a number of folks with degrees and experience in this area. I have also taught English and currently own and run a training company in which part of what we do is work with corporate clients in improving their writing skills in English.
There are lots and lots of source materials for grammar and style. Based on my personal and professional experience in the corporate world, the current "bibles" are the MLA Formatting and Style Guide (available online via Purdue University) and the various Grammar in Use texts by Raymond Murphy.
Jack Lynch's Guide to Grammar and Style may be the most practical and easiest guide to use.
Grammar and style does change, and sometimes rapidly. To me, effective writing (or any communication) should be judged by audience comprehension. Does the audience clearly and easily understand the message accurately? If the answer is yes, the communication has been effective. If not, it hasn't. Structure, spelling, use of punctuation, tenses, prepositions, articles, etc. can all affect how easily the message is understood. Double spacing after a period is unlikely to do that.
:cool:
Indeed, writing for the audience is the point. Whether it's for a journal article, grantor, professor, or little "Jimmy" in 5th grade, the key is to match the style with the audience. (hmm, I just used the a comma before the conjuntion in that list, which is another point of contention for some).
For some classes, I had to use MLA, yet in others I had to use APA. There were also times when some people required the APA 4th ed. (two spaces after a period) while others required APA 5th ed. (one space after periods).
I'm am very far from being an expert in this matter. I just figure that one has to research the audience then adapt accordingly. :shrug:
A two-spacer signing out
incommin
12-06-2006, 08:30
This discussion must be why publishers hire editors!
Jim
Bill Harsey
12-06-2006, 08:54
When they came out with paper, that must have really been confusing...
It was,
but then I started logging so we could have more of it.
The Reaper
12-06-2006, 09:19
It was,
but then I started logging so we could have more of it.
I had no idea you were a pulpwood logger.
I always thought that you were one of the high class dimensional lumber cutters.
TR
Bill Harsey
12-06-2006, 10:35
I had no idea you were a pulpwood logger.
I always thought that you were one of the high class dimensional lumber cutters.
TR
Since this is a detail oriented website, I'll explain this.
We logged in timber often mixed with both varying species, sizes and grades. Most of the "wood" we logged was for dimensional timbers, lumber and plywood. Lesser grades of woods are designated pulp and sent to either the digester or mechanical pulping plants for making into paper and various types of cardboard products.
It was not unusual to have up to five or six different "sorts" or grades to keep track of while yarding and loading logs with penalties imposed by mills for sending the wrong grade to a particular mill. In other words, we didn't get paid while the mill fined us for providing logs they kept. This became quite an entrepreneurial activity for some mills.
Our pulp wood was as big as the rest of the timber loaded onto log trucks.
Some logging outfits have chippers running on site to convert pulp logs into chips for hauling to the paper mills but we never did. This kind of chipping outfit needs smaller timber than we worked in.
Wow. . . didn't realize my being a language geek was going to spawn a thread. Yet another reason this site kicks patooty.
Rumblyguts' point about knowing one's audience is key. It is the writer's equivalent situational awareness, or so it seems to me. So long as the reader understands, the mission is accomplished.
Shakespeare, for example, spelled his own name various ways, invented words and was very "creative" with his punctuation. Even with his liberties (and sometimes because), his work has lasted because he communicated on such an effective, fundamental level with his audience.
Another offering for those interested in words and language is the Oxford English Dictionary. Not only does it have the definition of every word in the English language, but it also has the first time the word appeared in print. A good light read that explores the creation of this 22 volume beast is The Professor and the Madman by Simon Winchester.
Oh, and technically, I too taught English, albeit to Austrian teens who probably knew more about the grammar than I did.
x SF med
12-06-2006, 11:50
Wow. . . didn't realize my being a language geek was going to spawn a thread. Yet another reason this site kicks patooty.
That's it, take all the credit/blame for this thread, see if the other language geeks take offense. There were more than a few responses that spurred our illustrious TS to remove this from Introductions and place it here.
Always share credit and accept blame, both are the marks of a good NCO and real leader.
And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Yikes! Let's watch Books step on his crank in slow-mo! :D
I'm more than happy to share the blame on this one. I thought all those responses were loving attempts at inducing corrective behavior.
I'm learning Obi-wan, I'm learning.
Bill Harsey
12-06-2006, 20:50
Yikes! Let's watch Books step on his crank in slow-mo! :D
You'd know it if your wearing corked boots.
Edited to add:
Logging language is a very specialized form of English which our Mr. Jack Moroney has the full understanding of both it's syntax and use. This is obviously the result his particularly fine breeding and education.
You'd know it if your wearing corked boots.
Edited to add:
Logging language is a very specialized form of English which our Mr. Jack Moroney has the full understanding of both it's syntax and use. This is obviously the result his particularly fine breeding and education.
Corked boots on the crank. . . Food for thought here folks: while on my SOCM rotation in VA, there was a patient who presented with a four day old priaprism. It was drained over several hours with a combination of 14 gauge needles (in the meatus) and 18 gauges (in the corpus cavernosum)
v/r
Books,
a fellow who knows to not mess with loggers.
x SF med
12-06-2006, 21:40
Corked boots on the crank. . . Food for thought here folks: while on my SOCM rotation in VA, there was a patient who presented with a four day old priaprism. It was drained over several hours with a combination of 14 gauge needles (in the meatus) and 18 gauges (in the corpus cavernosum)
Ok, both of them are just too painful to think about. The question is how many ED pills did this guy take for forced evacuation of the Corpus Cavernosum? and were the needles (14's??) in the meatus just to cause pain? Definitely going to leave scars (dimples).
Bill Harsey
12-06-2006, 21:48
Books,
I don't have much medical experience, but isn't a priaprism a mechanical malfunction of the check valve from the hydraulic accumulator to the main cylinder?
that must have been owwy.
x SF med
12-07-2006, 07:46
Books,
I don't have much medical experience, but isn't a priaprism a mechanical malfunction of the check valve from the hydraulic accumulator to the main cylinder?
that must have been owwy.
Mr Bill
You are correct, sir! At least from a diesel mechanic's pov. ED pills essentially slow the backflow timing on the system - and sometimes cause a vaporlock. I'm still wondering why anybody would stab at the meatus with a 14 ga needle (sharpened javelin) for any other reason than to gain classified information.
Books-
You told that story to drive this thread in another direction, didn't you? Good use of delaying tactics and creating diversion. You have to explain the big needles in the meatus though, kind of counter to "Primum non Nocere" isn't it? Unless, of course you were studying under Dr. Mengele.
Kyobanim
12-07-2006, 08:20
I studied logger language when I worked construction so I will contribute my knowledge whether it's needed or not. :p
Here's the american English version of this line: Logging language is a very specialized form of English which our Mr. Jack Moroney has the full understanding of both it's syntax and use. This is obviously the result his particularly fine breeding and education.
And here is the Logger language translation:
%#$!^@^ ^@%!*@^&^ @^@% ^!$@#&#** ^#%@%** Mr. Jack Moroney ^%($&#$%$ &$%#*$( *$ ^&$% _)($&#^!
x SF med
12-07-2006, 08:51
I studied logger language when I worked construction so I will contribute my knowledge whether it's needed or not. :p
Here's the american English version of this line:
And here is the Logger language translation:
%#$!^@^ ^@%!*@^&^ @^@% ^!$@#&#** ^#%@%** Mr. Jack Moroney ^%($&#$%$ &$%#*$( *$ ^&$% _)($&#^!
Kyo-
I'm noticing that US Military / SF language is a derivative form of logger language. The similarities in word structure and sentence parsing are fascinating!!!
Mr Bill
You are correct, sir! At least from a diesel mechanic's pov. ED pills essentially slow the backflow timing on the system - and sometimes cause a vaporlock. I'm still wondering why anybody would stab at the meatus with a 14 ga needle (sharpened javelin) for any other reason than to gain classified information.
Books-
You told that story to drive this thread in another direction, didn't you? Good use of delaying tactics and creating diversion. You have to explain the big needles in the meatus though, kind of counter to "Primum non Nocere" isn't it? Unless, of course you were studying under Dr. Mengele.
The pt came in before shift change so I missed the original workup/history. My understanding was was that the pt had purchased some off-the-street ED drugs and no amount of "exhaustive measures" would relieve his condition. By the time I saw the fellow, he had already had epinephrine and other inteventions. Apparently the smaller gauge needles weren't working. As to whether or not the pt held secret information, well, that just might be above my paygrade. So, was it Dr. Mengle in disquise? Perhaps. . .
What was additionally challenging was that the Dr. had to "massage" the blood from the penis. For some reason, the SOCM medics quickly found other tasks vital for the emergency rooms continued operation during this crucial phase of the pt's treatment.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
12-07-2006, 15:35
I studied logger language when I worked construction so I will contribute my knowledge whether it's needed or not. :p
Here's the american English version of this line:
And here is the Logger language translation:
%#$!^@^ ^@%!*@^&^ @^@% ^!$@#&#** ^#%@%** Mr. Jack Moroney ^%($&#$%$ &$%#*$( *$ ^&$% _)($&#^!
Close, but you omitted a critical portion:%#$!^@^ ^@%!%#***&><>/*@^&^ @^@% ^!$@#&#** ^#%@%** Mr. Jack Moroney ^%($&#$%$ &$%#*$( *$ ^&$% _)($&#^!
x SF med
12-07-2006, 16:18
Close, but you omitted a critical portion:%#$!^@^ ^@%!%#***&><>/*@^&^ @^@% ^!$@#&#** ^#%@%** Mr. Jack Moroney ^%($&#$%$ &$%#*$( *$ ^&$% _)($&#^!
Wow, logger, military and construction are the same language after the COL's fine tuning.
Books-
Some information is better kept unrevealed, I wonder about you, boy.... Sounds like you enjoyed that little escapade.
As a high school English teacher I have to say I'm a two space guy.... one space gives me a funny feeling... but if the language is clear and concise, I can learn to live with it.
Wow, logger, military and construction are the same language after the COL's fine tuning.
Books-
Some information is better kept unrevealed, I wonder about you, boy.... Sounds like you enjoyed that little escapade.
Yep, I enjoyed it with the same fascination I have for multiple car pile-ups and medical abnormalities and that Cambodian midget fighting team that took on the tiger. If it isn't normal, chances are it has to be interesting!