View Full Version : The Afghans Will Fight
Warrior-Mentor
11-29-2006, 13:43
The Afghans Will Fight
The Afghans will fight. It is their métier.
Shere Mohamet has a story that illustrates the Afghan spirit.
"When I came home to my house in Kabul from the council that decided on the last war,
my wife and my daughter had my pistols and my sword and all my kit laid out for me.
" 'What is this?' I said
" 'Your things for the war. There is going to be a war, is there not?'
" 'Yes. But I am the minister of war. I do not go to this war. The minister of war does not go to the war itself.'
"My wife shook her head. 'I do not understand it,' she said very haughtily.
'If you are the minister of war who cannot go to war, you must resign. That is all.
We would be disgraced if you did not go.'"
That is the spirit the Kemalists trained, and armed by the Russians
it makes another Eastern problem that does not look easy of solution.
- Ernest Hemmingway
The Toronto Star
October 31, 1922
They don't make journalists like that anymore.... Hemingway is just outstanding.
Warrior-Mentor
11-29-2006, 19:55
Two reasons why I posted it, although you bring up an interesting third point...
First, it has obvious implications for what we can expect in the future based on the nature/temperment/culture we face in Afghanistan.
Second, it raises an interesting contrast with the American way of war. Can you imagine Secretary Rumsfeld (or any American SecDef for that matter) strapping on a pistol and heading off to lead to the front? It's not practical, practicable nor do I think it should be....but the image brings an interesting contrast to how different our societies are...
aricbcool
11-29-2006, 20:36
Second, it raises an interesting contrast with the American way of war. Can you imagine Secretary Rumsfeld (or any American SecDef for that matter) strapping on a pistol and heading off to lead to the front? It's not practical, practicable nor do I think it should be....but the image brings an interesting contrast to how different our societies are...
All over this site, and throughout various Army sites and documents, I hear the mantra for Officers to "lead from the front." At what point does the risk of dying outweigh the benefits gained from leading from the front?
I remember reading on Michael Yon's page regarding Lt. Col. Kurilla and his exploits with the 1-24th. Definitely an example of leading from the front.
On the other hand, the immense coordination and decision making responsibilities of say a division commander could necessitate having a more centralized leadership location. (I'm thinking of the book "Boots on the Ground" regarding the 82nd in OIF 1. It talks about Gen. Zannack's (IIRC) Command and Control role in that operation.)
Not disagreeing with your above assertion, and the question is directed to any who care to provide input. I'm curious as to what point going into harms way as a leader becomes impractical, and unpracticable.
With all due respect, of course.
--Aric
Wasn't Theodore Roosevelt Assistant Secretary of the Navy when he lead the Rough Riders in the Spanish American War?
incommin
11-30-2006, 15:30
Brain issue! Rewrite in progress....
Jim
incommin
11-30-2006, 15:36
." At what point does the risk of dying outweigh the benefits gained from leading from the front?"
It isn't matter of the risk of dying outweighting the benefits gained from leading from the front.
Small unit leaders need to lead from the front. Commnaders of large units are more managers and coordinators than leaders. Their focus has to be different becasue their role in a battle is different. The higher up the command ladder a person is the less "actual leading" they do and the manager roll increases.
Jim
x SF med
11-30-2006, 16:53
The Afghans Will Fight
The Afghans will fight. It is their métier.
Shere Mohamet has a story that illustrates the Afghan spirit.
"When I came home to my house in Kabul from the council that decided on the last war,
my wife and my daughter had my pistols and my sword and all my kit laid out for me.
" 'What is this?' I said
" 'Your things for the war. There is going to be a war, is there not?'
" 'Yes. But I am the minister of war. I do not go to this war. The minister of war does not go to the war itself.'
"My wife shook her head. 'I do not understand it,' she said very haughtily.
'If you are the minister of war who cannot go to war, you must resign. That is all.
We would be disgraced if you did not go.'"
That is the spirit the Kemalists trained, and armed by the Russians
it makes another Eastern problem that does not look easy of solution.
- Ernest Hemmingway
The Toronto Star
October 31, 1922
I think the point of WM's question on this is how do we fight against the tribal warrior, when many of those in our government do not understand the implications of the 'warrior code' espoused by the clan/family traditions of honor and sacrifice beyond just fielding armies for the battle. It is a Middle Eastern form of Bushido that is foreign to many westerners - the same people who are 'war chiefs' are also expected to be warriors, and the women and children will pick up arms to defend what they see as a matter of disgrace or dishonor.
A historical point is the Kurdish uprising of the 1920's put down by Kamil Attaturk - a brutal and bloody civil war in the Turkish mountains that border Afghanistan. The Turks put down this rebellion in what we see as a ruthless near genocidal war. It was, in fact the clash of two tribally motivated peoples, using the same methods they had used for centuries, only much better equipment (especially the Turks), it was a guerrilla conflagration that caught the world's eye for a moment, until Attaturk's forces took 'victory with honor' and left the tribal honor of the Kurds intact, at least from the tribal/clan standpoint.
Westerners do not have the mindset that replaces tribal leaders (after defeat) with new tribal leaders, and loyalties through existing tribute lines to the new leadership. Anthropologist Napoleon Chagnon's study of the Aymara tribe in South America is an excellent look into the tribal mindset - and it carries across the pond to the Mideast.
Internicene feuds will be set aside to cover the greater family/clan/tribe/country good if requested by the highest tribal leader, and picked up again whichever side wins, - this is a fluid thing and will flow across differnt marriage-bound, tribute- bound and honor bound groupings, inside the multilayered society of a tribal culture....
ok, I'll stop now, it's getting to sound like an Anthropology 4672 lecture.
Basenshukai
11-30-2006, 19:17
." At what point does the risk of dying outweigh the benefits gained from leading from the front?"
It isn't matter of the risk of dying outweighting the benefits gained from leading from the front.
Small unit leaders need to lead from the front. Commnaders of large units are more managers and coordinators than leaders. Their focus has to be different becasue their role in a battle is different. The higher up the command ladder a person is the less "actual leading" they do and the manager roll increases.
Jim
A leader must lead from where he can best control his element. This applies at all levels. An SF Captain on a mounted patrol through the mountains of Southern Afghanistan will best control his element somewhere totally different from where a Major General must place himself in order to control an infantry division. The front, the middle and in some case the rear (MSS on an SR mission, for instance) might be one of the places an SF Captain might find best for the efforts of the team.
Warrior-Mentor
11-30-2006, 20:50
The Young British Soldier
- Kipling
When the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East
'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast,
An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased
Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier.
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
So-oldier OF the Queen!
Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day,
You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay,
An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may:
A soldier what's fit for a soldier.
Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . .
First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts,
For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts --
Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts --
An' it's bad for the young British soldier.
Bad, bad, bad for the soldier . . .
When the cholera comes -- as it will past a doubt --
Keep out of the wet and don't go on the shout,
For the sickness gets in as the liquor dies out,
An' it crumples the young British soldier.
Crum-, crum-, crumples the soldier . . .
But the worst o' your foes is the sun over'ead:
You must wear your 'elmet for all that is said:
If 'e finds you uncovered 'e'll knock you down dead,
An' you'll die like a fool of a soldier.
Fool, fool, fool of a soldier . . .
If you're cast for fatigue by a sergeant unkind,
Don't grouse like a woman nor crack on nor blind;
Be handy and civil, and then you will find
That it's beer for the young British soldier.
Beer, beer, beer for the soldier . . .
Now, if you must marry, take care she is old --
A troop-sergeant's widow's the nicest I'm told,
For beauty won't help if your rations is cold,
Nor love ain't enough for a soldier.
'Nough, 'nough, 'nough for a soldier . . .
If the wife should go wrong with a comrade, be loath
To shoot when you catch 'em -- you'll swing, on my oath! --
Make 'im take 'er and keep 'er: that's Hell for them both,
An' you're shut o' the curse of a soldier.
Curse, curse, curse of a soldier . . .
When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck,
Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck,
Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck
And march to your front like a soldier.
Front, front, front like a soldier . . .
When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;
She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich,
An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.
Fight, fight, fight for the soldier . . .
When shakin' their bustles like ladies so fine,
The guns o' the enemy wheel into line,
Shoot low at the limbers an' don't mind the shine,
For noise never startles the soldier.
Start-, start-, startles the soldier . . .
If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!
Warrior-Mentor
11-30-2006, 20:54
One of my points is that the Afghanis have been fighting for a long time...it's ingraiined in their being. We just went over a land mark in time in Iraq and look at what a big deal the press made of it.
These things take time and determination, intelligent COIN operations, a thorough understanding of your enemy ...and yes, culture is part of that...some seem to think that understanding culture is a finger drill or "tea and crumpets"...
x SF med
11-30-2006, 21:01
WM-
'The Young British Soldier' is good but 'Ford O' Kabul River' speaks volumes too. and I'm trying to figure out if you are agreeing with my take on your original intent of the post by putting up this kipling Verse.
aricbcool
11-30-2006, 21:46
Thank you for your replies gentlemen.
--Aric
incommin
12-01-2006, 06:27
Basenshukai,
I think we are saying the same thing!
This topic was a day and a half free for all when I went thru the sergeants major course in 84.
Jim
brownapple
12-01-2006, 08:40
A leader must lead from where he can best control his element. This applies at all levels. An SF Captain on a mounted patrol through the mountains of Southern Afghanistan will best control his element somewhere totally different from where a Major General must place himself in order to control an infantry division. The front, the middle and in some case the rear (MSS on an SR mission, for instance) might be one of the places an SF Captain might find best for the efforts of the team.
Steel on target.
Warrior-Mentor
12-02-2006, 07:23
I think the point of WM's question on this is how do we fight against the tribal warrior, when many of those in our government do not understand the implications of the 'warrior code' espoused by the clan/family traditions of honor and sacrifice beyond just fielding armies for the battle. It is a Middle Eastern form of Bushido that is foreign to many westerners - the same people who are 'war chiefs' are also expected to be warriors, and the women and children will pick up arms to defend what they see as a matter of disgrace or dishonor.
Westerners do not have the mindset that replaces tribal leaders (after defeat) with new tribal leaders, and loyalties through existing tribute lines to the new leadership.
Exactly. Your points on anthropology are well made.
I tie anthopology to Sun Tsu.
"Know your enemy" is more than just his order of battle...
Interesting thread. I just started reading Afghan Guerrilla Warfare (http://www.amazon.com/Afghan-Guerilla-Warfare-Ahmad-Jalali/dp/190257947X/sr=8-3/qid=1165075008/ref=sr_1_3/002-2690068-0762415?ie=UTF8&s=books) and the accompanying PDF Bear went over the Mountain (http://www.911investigations.net/document836.html?PHPSESSID=1fb44152ef1be2861a34e97 58b9dd35a).
I haven't seen these listed anywhere else on the board and thought some might find them interesting.
.02
The Afghans Will Fight
But will they hold the line??
The Reaper
12-04-2006, 21:10
Interesting thread. I just started reading Afghan Guerrilla Warfare (http://www.amazon.com/Afghan-Guerilla-Warfare-Ahmad-Jalali/dp/190257947X/sr=8-3/qid=1165075008/ref=sr_1_3/002-2690068-0762415?ie=UTF8&s=books) and the accompanying PDF Bear went over the Mountain (http://www.911investigations.net/document836.html?PHPSESSID=1fb44152ef1be2861a34e97 58b9dd35a).
I haven't seen these listed anywhere else on the board and thought some might find them interesting.
.02
You need to do some more research here.
"The Bear Went Over the Mountain" has been mentioned several times.
TR