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kachingchingpow
11-06-2006, 18:23
I know, it's somewhat of an oxymoronic suggestion. Last weekend I was hunting out of a ground blind on a 100ac peanut field that offers some rather long shots. I've haven't taken many "long" ones... mostly due to the fact that I've shot enough deer inside 300yds that have run into various thicknesses of cover that ultimatetly required a lengthy tracking session in the dark. I prefer a clean kill.

Anyhow, to the matter at hand. I'm relaxing in my chair in the blind, as the sun falls below the trees. Hunting was just about to get good. Then about 75 yards from me, a large gray fox walked onto the field and began feasting on the peanuts. Being a quail and turkey hunter at heart, I thought the old fox would make a great addition to the trophy room, and protect a few juvenile quail and turkey in the same stroke. I didn't shoot it due to the large caliber I was using, and thought it would destroy it. So question is... what round might do the trick? I'm thinking that a 180gr FMJ (perferablly smaller) would be the round I could carry with me in the event of a varmint opportunity. The Remington Premier Partition's I'm using for deer do a lot of damage... too much really even for whitetails (exit wounds are the size of a softball). I could just keep a few in my pocke for "just such an occasion."

FWIW, the rifle is a Rem 700 Sendero .300 WM with the heavy fiberglass stock, topped with a Leopold VXIII Long Range w/ Varmint Reticle, trigger worked down to 2lbs, and smooth. (the club I belong to has a 600yd range with pits, so the gun is dual purpose)

BTW: I'm a lefty, and the scope has the side parallax adjustment (left side of the scope). Don't get one of those if you're left handed, and intend to hunt. It's tough to adjust in the field... impossible without some sort of rest.

Gene Econ
11-07-2006, 18:01
FWIW, the rifle is a Rem 700 Sendero .300 WM with the heavy fiberglass stock, topped with a Leopold VXIII Long Range w/ Varmint Reticle, trigger worked down to 2lbs, and smooth. (the club I belong to has a 600yd range with pits, so the gun is dual purpose)

KCP:

The problem is the cartridge, not the bullet. The 300 WM simply has too much power for your purposes. Use a lighter bullet an you will destroy a small animal or maybe the bullet will blow up in flight due to an exceptionally high velocity. Use a heavier bullet and chances are the bullet punches a neat .30 caliber hole through the small animal and it keeps on moving. Downloading the 300 WM has its own set of problems.

Bring a rifle that uses a cartridge based on the .308 and you won't have these problems. Barrel life will be significantly higher and your shoulder will thank you as well.

Gene

kachingchingpow
11-08-2006, 09:31
I realize I'm in one of those "using a sledge when a hammer will do" scenario's. The rifle kinda found me, I didn't find it. I was looking for a flat shooting rifle at a gunshow a few years ago, and had pretty much picked the place apart. I've had good luck with 7-mags, and was leaning that way, but also was looking hard at the new .270 short mag. I decided to think about it close to the front door while I watched what merchandise was being walked in. A LEO walked by with the .300 draped over his shoulder. I guess he didn't feel like carrying it around all day, because I got it for less than half of it's book value, plus it had a POS Simmons scope and Leupold base and rings on it. The Simmons quickly sold on e-bay for $40. So after a trigger job I was still into this rifle for under $450.

I'm thinking just an FMJ might at least provide a "pencil hole" vs destroying the animal... of course with ample backstop (don't ever take shots where that's in question). Of course this could be just the excuse I need to get my son his first rifle ;) I'm thinking he needs a 6.5 swede or a 7mm-08.

The Reaper
11-08-2006, 09:59
You know, a .22LR pistol might be handy for just such an occasion, as well as not attracting as much attention if you left your fox hunting license in your other pants.

If you have to use the .300 WM, and I have one myself, you might consider looking for a chamber insert. IIRC you can get them for .308 and .30-'06 to use .30 Carbine or .32 ACP ammo in those rifles. You might find one for .300 WM.

If you can put the bullet where you want it for a rifle normally zeroed for several hundred meters, the pencil hole should work, but after you shoot, I wouldn't count on finding a deer coming by that day.

TR

tugboat
11-08-2006, 17:56
I shoot alot of fox, coon and coyote. .22 LR. will do the job with very careful shot placement. But the .22mag Ruger Single Six is a better gamegetter.When using .22LR to shoot larger critters, it is best to avoid shooting through the shoulder. Wait until the animal is quartering away from you. Place your shot just behind the shoulder at an angle that has a good chance of striking both heart and lung.

kachingchingpow
11-08-2006, 20:13
You know, a .22LR pistol might be handy for just such an occasion, as well as not attracting as much attention if you left your fox hunting license in your other pants.

If you have to use the .300 WM, and I have one myself, you might consider looking for a chamber insert. IIRC you can get them for .308 and .30-'06 to use .30 Carbine or .32 ACP ammo in those rifles. You might find one for .300 WM.

If you can put the bullet where you want it for a rifle normally zeroed for several hundred meters, the pencil hole should work, but after you shoot, I wouldn't count on finding a deer coming by that day.

TR

Yessir, I agree on the .22 pistol. I just recently sold my Ruger. All I was using it for was to sit at my basement bar shooting out the window at a little range I have set up. CB Caps made a fun little plinker... and no ear plugs necessary. ;)

Does are pretty stupid, and will often walk back onto a field 15 minutes after a round is touched off. I've shot them literally sniffing the nose of one I just shot 20 minutes prior. They'll spook and be gone if even a faint noise of an ATV or a truck is heard though. Bucks, on the other hand usually won't ever hit our field unless it's pitch black or smack in the middle of the rut. I've never seen one after squeezing the trigger on a doe, that's for certain.

I'm going to bring a few FMJ's to the field and let you know how much damage they do. I'm crossing my fingers. It's a large fox and is beautifully marked.

Tug, have you shot the .17HMR yet? How does it stack against the .22 mag? I've heard great things about it, not to mention the BSA drop compensating scope that you can hang on one for cheap.

HOLLiS
11-09-2006, 14:44
FMJs as a hunting round? Last time I checked Fish and Game would not be very happy with you.

The right tool for the right job, no rifle does it all. I had a sweat 270 that I loaded some 90 grain HP for, book speed 3,400-3,500 FPS (if memory was right, this was about 30 years ago). I has using a 22 LR HP to kill coyotes, sun dried pelts were worth about $50.00.

I was pretty proud of my 270 wizz kids, so I decided to try them on a coyote. On the way out I spotted a good size Jack rabbit.

He was about 50 yards away, back facing me. It seemed, as just as I started to touch the trigger, there was a 10 ft radius of grey.

I walked over to the Jack, all there was, was his head and duster (tail). A flash of brilliance came to my mind, this round was NO coyote round.

My other favorite coyote round was the 256 Win Mag. In heavy brush country with limited visibility, a 20 guage.

The Reaper
11-09-2006, 15:41
I do not think that anyone loads commercial .300 WM with FMJ bullets.

If you are going to work up some hand loads, you might try something in the 145-168 grain range, and FMJs are available there, but as noted, you do not want to shoot reduced powder loads. You will also have a significantly different zero with that round.

Good luck.

TR

Air.177
11-09-2006, 15:53
Have you considered taking a page out of NDD's book and going to a board with a nail in it?

kachingchingpow
11-09-2006, 17:33
Yeah, this is probably an effort in futility. I've got some FMJ's that I loaded up last spring, we'll see how it does on a fox squirrel before I tear up the fox.

Honestly I forget if GA has a ban on FMJ's. Seems like I read it somewhere, but I've lived and hunted in several states and frankly can't recall. Anyhow, I'm no poacher, but the area that I hunt is so rural that the owls don't say "who" they say "where." Being busted for having a couple FMJ's in my pocket is the least of my worries.

I talked it over with a close friend today (he works for SWC at one of the CQB ranges). He lit a $300 light bulb in my head. Taurus Tracker 6.5" revolver in .17hmr, topped with a small scope. Great idea. Now I've got to get it past the wife.

The Reaper
11-09-2006, 18:29
I like an old S&W 41 with a 1.5-5x EER on top for squirrels and rabbits, but that is your call.

TR

HOLLiS
11-09-2006, 19:13
One other bullet choice, is to make hard cast bullets. Loads on lead bullets are substancially less and on critters they act similar to FMJs. Linotype is used in the lead mix.

I am not sure if there is any developed loads for the 300WM. I have not done much with that round in a long time and never with reduced loads.

kachingchingpow
11-09-2006, 20:00
S&W M41... man, that's like comparing an Escalade to an S-10.

I've owned a bunch of other Smiths, and a few Hi Standards. The 41's a very nice shootin iron.

Gene Econ
11-10-2006, 18:27
One other bullet choice, is to make hard cast bullets. Loads on lead bullets are substancially less and on critters they act similar to FMJs. Linotype is used in the lead mix. I am not sure if there is any developed loads for the 300WM. I have not done much with that round in a long time and never with reduced loads.

Hollis:

I haven't seen linotype for twenty years. I am sure some place has an equivalent and will bet the cost is $2.00 plus per pound.

Just took a look in my Lyman Cast Bullet handbook and sure enough. one can blast with the .300 WM using cast bullets. They even show velocities up to 2700 fps. They say Lyman #2 alloy but at those speeds one better use straight linotype and then heat treat the cast bullets. I would bet that even when using a gas check and the best lube made today, these cast bullets would still lead the crap out of a barrel if shot at anything over 2200 fps.

The zero and trajectory would be radically different than a factory load.

Gene

HOLLiS
11-10-2006, 22:32
Hollis:

I haven't seen linotype for twenty years. I am sure some place has an equivalent and will bet the cost is $2.00 plus per pound.

Just took a look in my Lyman Cast Bullet handbook and sure enough. one can blast with the .300 WM using cast bullets. They even show velocities up to 2700 fps. They say Lyman #2 alloy but at those speeds one better use straight linotype and then heat treat the cast bullets. I would bet that even when using a gas check and the best lube made today, these cast bullets would still lead the crap out of a barrel if shot at anything over 2200 fps.

The zero and trajectory would be radically different than a factory load.

Gene


Gene:

I still have about 50 lbs of linotype. I need to check my old supplier to see if it is even available. As I mention, I never played with the 300WM in a reduced load. I always had something more appropriate to shoot.

The other thought was using a filler with a reduce load, But!! I am not sure how that would work out or how deadly to the shooter it would be. I have done that for my Trapdoor Springfield (45/70) and used a smokeless powder with reasonable accuracy. (Also for BP loads)


Those 17 HMR are pretty interesting. I bought barrel for the Thompson Contender in 17 HMR. I had not had much time to play with it.

Hollis

Gene Econ
11-12-2006, 19:07
Gene: I still have about 50 lbs of linotype. I need to check my old supplier to see if it is even available. As I mention, I never played with the 300WM in a reduced load. I always had something more appropriate to shoot. The other thought was using a filler with a reduce load, But!! I am not sure how that would work out or how deadly to the shooter it would be. I have done that for my Trapdoor Springfield (45/70) and used a smokeless powder with reasonable accuracy. (Also for BP loads) Those 17 HMR are pretty interesting. I bought barrel for the Thompson Contender in 17 HMR. I had not had much time to play with it. Hollis

Hollis:

I screwed around with cast bullets for the .308 and 30-06 for a couple of years. Used pistol powders through fast rifle through medium burning powders. I used kapoc for fillers for the pistol powders and light loads of 4198. Tried cream of wheat and oatmeal as well but the kapoc worked better. For the high pressure cartridges like the .308, I found a light load of 4895 without a filler was about the best. 4759 and 3031 worked very well in the straight walled and necked BP cartridges but didn't seem to do well in the modern bottleneck cartridges. Super slow powders like surplus .50 cal powder did a decent job but left partially burned powder in the barrel.

I have five or six molds for .30 caliber rifle. Gas checked of course. All the conventional wisdom said to use a flat tip bullet but I got the best luck with a spitzer tip cast bullet that was basically a bore rider. Still, it was almost impossible to shoot a minute of angle and no matter how well my QC, one of ten would really fly.

Might as well tell guys that it is no fun dealing with cast bullets and any modern bottleneck cartridge. One has to ream out the inside of the necks to take the larger diameter of a cast bullet. Cast bullets are always oversized to seal the bore.

Best alloy for the .30 caliber bullets for me was straight lineotype. Best alloy for the BP cartridge rifles was pure lead with a touch of tin added to fill out the mold. If I paper patched a BP bullet, I preferred a harder bullet like the Lyman #2 alloy. NEI made a 500 grain PP bullet for the Sharps that was very respectable.

Man, so many hours spent with so little to show for it.

Gene

Gene

kachingchingpow
11-14-2006, 10:31
This has been a great thread.

An interesting shot on a deer last weekend made me think about it. I was about 35' up a tree overlooking a peanut field last Saturday, and a few does came out to the field right at dark... about 220 yards away. I was in a stand that didn't have any type of rest, so I made an off-hand shot for the head. The bullet hit the deer on the left side of the neck, about 4 inches behind the ear. It travelled down the length of the neck, exiting the right side just behind the shoulder (where you would normally place a heart/lung shot... in the dimple.) After exiting, the bullet continued it's path and broke the rear right leg in half. First of all, since the bullet didn't hit a large bone like the shoulder the exit wound was reasonable... about the size of a silver dollar. What impressed me though was that the bullet maintained it's flight path through the deer and broke the leg. The bullet had a pretty long way to go down through it's neck, etc. That answered some questions for me in terms of the durability of the Remington Permier Partitions in 180gr. I also liked the hole size. I think on a thin skinned fox that bullet might just pencil hole it, provided I choose a shot between the hips and the ribs (gut shoot it basically). I don't think it'll be a problem. Either way, Thanksgiving weekend will be the next weekend I'll be in the woods. My son will sit in a ground blind with me, and he'll have my .357 1894 lever action (which I bought at a small pawn shop outside Bragg about 4 years ago for a steal). I might keep a hard cast handy for the lever gun and see what it does.

Gene Econ
11-14-2006, 20:26
This has been a great thread. An interesting shot on a deer last weekend made me think about it. I was about 35' up a tree overlooking a peanut field last Saturday, and a few does came out to the field right at dark... about 220 yards away. I was in a stand that didn't have any type of rest, so I made an off-hand shot for the head. The bullet hit the deer on the left side of the neck, about 4 inches behind the ear. It travelled down the length of the neck, exiting the right side just behind the shoulder (where you would normally place a heart/lung shot... in the dimple.) After exiting, the bullet continued it's path and broke the rear right leg in half. First of all, since the bullet didn't hit a large bone like the shoulder the exit wound was reasonable... about the size of a silver dollar. What impressed me though was that the bullet maintained it's flight path through the deer and broke the leg. The bullet had a pretty long way to go down through it's neck, etc. That answered some questions for me in terms of the durability of the Remington Permier Partitions in 180gr. I also liked the hole size.

Well old boy -- when I hunted I hunted with some double guns I own. I don't hunt today because it sucks to get up at 0200 and walk through the woods in pouring 42 degree rain just to not see or shoot a game animal. I can go to my gun club and shoot the whole day under a cover so I don't get soaked.

Well, I hunted with a double rifle, a Sharps Big .50, a Day Swivel Breech flintlock in .40 and .50 Calibers, and a Gostomski .20 guage Trade Gun. That Trade Gun is sweet. Smooth bore you know -- provided you aren't of the generation that thinks some sabot conical represents the 1700's.

So I had a 577 / 500 double gun with Damascus barrels. This rifle came with its leather case, loading dies, and bullet mold. I cast up a couple hundred bullets from this mold. They were a 350 grain hollow point bullet sized for paper patching -- what is known as an 'Express Rifle' bullet of that era.

I have a Lyon and Lyon 500 / 3 Inch double gun with exposed hammers and underlever action so I decided to go hunting with this rifle and that 350 grain pure lead hollow point paper patch bullet loaded on about 120 grains of 2F Black Powder.

I shot a 'Fort Stewart' size deer (maybe fifty pounds) at about fifty yards with a raking shot and totally destroyed the carcass in the process. There was nothing left to pack out or eat. That bullet went through its right shoulder and opened up diagonally to it's left hind quarters -- totally destroying the animal.

I hunted the same spot the next day and used some 400 grain solid lead bullets with the same rifle. My thinking was that the 350 grain solf lead hollow point was too devistating on a game animal (duhhh). I shot another beast in the same exact spot as the deer I shot the day before. Except that the solid lead 400 grain bullet went right through that animal with little effect. I saw the blood go out the opposite side of the animal. So this beast staggers directly under my stand and out of pity for the poor animal I thumbed back the hammer of the other barrel and blasted the animal from about ten feet right down through the neck. I actually was able to eat some of this carcass.

I then understood what "Too Much Gun" meant. I still have that Lyon and Lyon double rifle and it must represent the epitome of a dangerous game rifle.

I haven't hunted a wild animal for twenty years. Why? Because I can depend on others to go out in cold rain day after day and hunt. When they shoot an animal, they never have enough room to store the meat so they give it to me!

He, he, he.

Gene

kachingchingpow
11-15-2006, 06:26
Yeah, those are heavy hitters Gene. I get a chance to shoot all kinds of firearms through the gun club that I belong to. It's a little on the "pricey" side... lots of covered ranges, cowboy action, action pistol, 600yd, etc. etc. The price keeps the odd fumbling idiot with a recently purchased SKS from ruining everyone's day. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying $$$ are everything but it does weed out some of the people that don't take the sport very seriously. Some of the people that do belong there have some very nice firearms and I occasionally get a chance to shoot some. Everything from Sharps rifles to $15k bench rest rail guns. I have never shot a big double gun before though. It would be fun to spit 10 or so rounds downrange with one.

I often get an odd look from people when I tell them that my primary rifles are a .300WM Rem 700 and a .45/70 Marlin Lever action. "Too much for whitetails" is usually the response. It's easy to explain really. Where I hunt, which is not all that far from Ft. Stewart (about an hour and change north west) I have 2 basic approaches to the harvest. 1. Hunt the fields in the afternoon /evening, with the most likely target being does. The bucks rarely walk onto a field unless it's after dark, or their in full rut. Long range rifle is a must. .300 isn't required, but like I said in a previous post, it found me. 2. Other times I hunt the swamp bottoms and thickest, heaviest cover that I can find with buck action. The bullet will often have to bust it's way through magnolia, green briar, swamp oak and all sorts of other flora on the way to it's destination. That's where that .45/70 performs nicely. It denies cover. I shoot a 350 hollow point, and have never had what I consider to be "too much" damage. Occassionally a close shot to a shoulder will rip it up pretty bad, but so will just about any high-powered rifle. It's my unscientific opinion that either the load isn't hot enough, or these coastal white tails just aren't thick enough to fully expand the bullet unless it hits a major bone. Just the weight of the bullet and diameter of the wound channel knocks them to their knees like they just were hit with a Chevy van. I've killed a bunch of deer with the .45/70 and have only had to track one. It was my fault for taking a 300yard shot with that round and a 2x-7x scope. It took 2 shots to get the correct holdover and I ended up hitting it in the gut. The next 2 hours were spent tracking it through green briar. When it was over with I looked like I had been in a fight with a wild cat.

I'm with you on the rain thing Gene, I don't hunt in it. The animals really don't move in it anyhow. As soon as it stops and a cold breeze blows though, every animal in the woods moves. Personally, I can't even deal with Washington state in that regard. I enjoy the fair Georgia weather too much :)

Due to kid commitments, my days of doing things "for myself" have basically come to an end. However for a few weeks after youth football ends (I coach), I hit the woods hard. After a couple weekends on my own, I start taking my son and daughter out to the woods in an effort to expose them to a sport that fewer kids each year have the opportunity to participate in. We have 2000 acres, so they get a chance to ride 4 wheelers, target shoot, hunt, and even sit in the trailer and watch cartoons if they want. I don't get on them about stupid stuff unless we're at home.