Woman Is Termed Qualified For Green Beret Unit [Archive]

SF18C

10-26-2006, 21:39

Before you freak on me this is from 1981!!!!

But has anyone worked with or know Capt. Kathleen Wilder? I would be interested to here a stroy or two.

Look under the training paragraph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Special_Forces)

Training
A completely new recruit to the United States Army, who has signed on for the Special Forces, starts his (all United States Special Forces are closed to females, though one woman completed and graduated from the Special Forces Officer Course in 1980, thus becoming the only Special Forces-qualified female[1]) training in Fort Benning, Georgia.

References
^ "Woman is Termed Qualified For Green Beret Unit", AP/NYT, February 22, 1981, pp. Section 1, Page 20.

of course I don't have a subscription! but you gotta love how PC Wikipedia is! All the acheivement of SF and the 1st paragharph under training talks about how a women has done it. They have more information on Popular culture and video games than Training.

edited cause I cna't type or spell very guud

The Reaper

10-26-2006, 21:45

Yes.

She made full Colonel in MI. She was assigned to SWCS at the time and used her position to justify her application for the SFQC.

They changed the reg after she got in to keep it from happening again.

IIRC, after she was relieved for failure to meet standards, she screamed sexual discrimination and they pretty much just handed her a diploma.

HTH.

TR

Pete

10-27-2006, 05:03

Others know the full story but; Yeah, she wiggled in on a technicality and went through the officer's course.

Short story was she didn't pull her weight in the field portion of the old Phase III. After graduation she raised a stink and pointed out that a few fellow officers also didn't pull their weight, due to minor injuries jumping into Phase III. It was either give her the beret or call the other officers back and make them all repeat Phase III. The powers-that-be picked the first course and we see what she did with the gift.

IIRC - There were some interesting stories floating around about her for next few years. Of course none were first hand but from a friend to a friend and I got it from here.

Team Sergeant

10-27-2006, 09:11

Before you freak on me this is from 1981!!!!

But has anyone worked with or know Capt. Kathleen Wilder? I would be interested to here a stroy or two.

I went through in 83. The stories I heard was it was a "joke" that went wrong.

I also heard she didn't make any of the ruck marches with the proper weight. It was more of a " guided tour" of the Q Course for her. We can thank her for getting one thing done, she closed the book on any other females attending the Q-Course.

She must have had some dirt on someone.........

TS

incommin

10-27-2006, 10:21

I am amazed at the things I learn on this site! I always thought that SF was the one place that would stay female free.......not that there is anything wrong with females........

Jim

Airbornelawyer

10-27-2006, 10:28

Usually everything is from a "friend of a friend". Of course, I am one of those friends. ;) One of my friends went through the course with her. He had a few stories. Too bad I don't dish, especially hearsay. :D

The Reaper

10-27-2006, 10:31

Give, amigo.

TR

Team Sergeant

10-27-2006, 10:31

Too bad I don't dish, especially hearsay. :D

If it comes from one SF'er to another I don't consider it hearsay.;)

Just an FYI to why I posted what I did.

Everything every Special Forces soldier told me about her "passing" the Q Course was a joke to say the least.

Team Sergeant

x SF med

10-27-2006, 10:35

There were rumors about her when I went through the course in 83. Some were, not very flattering re: her character and use of gender for advancement. (ok, does that get me a PC prize of some sort - NDD I think we went through the course at the same time, maybe the same class)

Airbornelawyer

10-27-2006, 10:45

The one problem is I don't want to misremember a 10-year old conversation. As I recall - and this is subject to qualification since I learned this morning in a series of e-mails this morning with a partner that I couldn't remember a document my firm had created a few months ago when I was the one who had created it :rolleyes: - she was sleeping with one of the cadre, and I believe was found out on a ruck march or land nav exercise. The embarassment to the schoolhouse was considered worse than the embarassment to her and the particular cadre member, which may have led to her passing a certain exercise she didn't actually complete in a vertical manner.

Again, this is hearsay from a guy whose memory is failing. :(

Her not carrying the same weight is also something I recall as well, although I can't remember if that was less in the technical sense or the "real" sense. What I mean is, in a team exercise, if the book says everyone carries X equipment and a 35lb or 50lb ruck or whatever, she might have had that, but when it came to allocating all the extra team equipment, somehow, she never ended up with anything. So when it came to weighing rucks, there was technical compliance with the standards, but everyone else was forced to carry her weight. This I'm not as sure about, though; I may be conflating it with what happened in some of my schools like OCS, where most female OCs definitely didn't carry their weight.

Peregrino

10-27-2006, 12:18

The entire story should be an object lesson to everybody on the importance of maintaining impeccable personal standards/the moral high ground whenever exposed to potentially compromising situations. Any demonstrated weakness becomes a "chink in the armor" that will suffice to drive a wedge through. We all know a wedge (and a sledgehammer to drive it) is sufficient to fracture diamonds, let alone lesser materials. "Nuff said" - Peregrino

incommin

10-27-2006, 12:32

The problem is that most are not thinking about maintaining the moral high ground when they are exposed to potentially compromising situations. Their mind is on the situation backed up by a belief they will not get caught. NO one commits a crime or indiscretion believing they will be caught.......they believe they will get away with it and commit the act.

Jim

Pete

10-27-2006, 13:27

Yeah, I remember the flurry of chatter after the situation was ended.

I want to say that some female soldier in 7th (?) Group used her as the insperation and role model for a shot at SFUWO School, Combat Diver for the younger ones. She was working out on the north side of Gruber on the old Smoke Bomb Hill Parade Ground.

The SCUBA Teams were keeping a close eye on that one, but the regs were changed and things settled back down to the usual level of rumors and scuttlebutt.

Rumors and scuttlebut, F6 most of the time but every once-in-a-while its spot on.

Edited to add: You have to remember the time frame. Womens Lib, hear me roar, burn the bras was still high fashion. The Army had just dug it's way out of the 70s. Sure not today's Army.

NousDefionsDoc

10-27-2006, 19:47

That woman did not legitimately graduate from my Q Course.

ex_SF_Med, We weren't in the same class. I can't remember, but I think you were right in front of us. I remember your class though.

x SF med

10-27-2006, 21:52

I am amazed at the things I learn on this site! I always thought that SF was the one place that would stay female free.......not that there is anything wrong with females........

Jim

Ah, you just want to join the 'he man woman hater's club' dontcha, Alfalfa?

incommin

10-28-2006, 05:58

"Ah, you just want to join the 'he man woman hater's club' dontcha, Alfalfa?"

No! I just want to stay clear of the women who use men club!

Jim

x SF med

10-28-2006, 08:17

No! I just want to stay clear of the women who use men club!

Jim

BTDT - my ex left me for her boss after 16 yrs of marriage - she took 50% of everything, after all her debt was paid off - judge's orders, even though she was screwing around with a lawyer - don't get divorced in NJ, men have no rights.

bost1751

10-28-2006, 09:03

Ex- SF-Med:

Do not limit the men have no rights to NJ. I think it is nationwide.

A good friend of mine was assigned to Training Group during the Katie ordeal. I can't remember everything in detail he told me during that time frame but it boiled down to she did not do exactly what the men did. Not by a long shot. What it boiled down to was Miss Katie was allowed to go through the motions and granted a beret. She did not earn a beret. Big political horse crap due to the era we had just finished and the era we were in.

incommin

10-28-2006, 13:45

I think there is a lot of using on both sides of the fence......however, it seems the women get the dirty end of the stick less often.

Jim

Richard

10-28-2006, 16:01

:mad: Guys, I was the Det Cdr for ODA-726 when the Kate Wilder fiasco--and it was a total fiasco--took place. SWC really screwed that one up and all involved were used by one shrewd, manipulative, female with "heavy" support from some members of Congress and DACOWITS. COL Ola Mize (CMH) was the SWC Cdr and MG Lutz the Cdr of JFKCMA. After the investigations (there were more than one) and legal shenanigans were over, CPT Wilder was awarded the 5G and sent to Fort Huachuca with a proviso that she would never serve in an SF assignment ever again. She retired an LTC and the last time I saw her name was during the 2004 elections when she came out in support of John Kerry's nomination for POTUS. Figures. My favorite memory of the Wilder affair was the t-shirt that was printed with her face imposed on an ART-2 sight reticle; MG Lutz put the word out that anyone in SF caught wearing one of the t-shirts would be reassigned out of SF so they didn't sell for long. I wish now that I would have bought one for a souvenir as it would look good on the wall in my den now. :D

sf11b_p

10-29-2006, 10:05

She seems to be involved in Virginia Democrat politics now and is recently quoted in campaign articles in WP and Washinton Times 10-18-06 and USA Today dated 10-26-06. She's made comments on women in the military and her having been the only women to qualify and serve in SF. She also remarks on integrity. Google search.

"When I was in the Special Forces, I can tell you, when they speak of Jim's article, believe me, the men were disgruntled by having us in the military. It was a tumultuous time," said retired Col. Kate Wilder, who says she was the only woman ever to serve as a Green Beret. "But it wasn't yesterday. It was 30 years ago. Life moves on." - WP

Richard

10-29-2006, 11:02

"...said retired Col. Kate Wilder, who says she was the only woman ever to serve as a Green Beret. "

:mad: Well, not much integrity there. She and a few other women were assigned to SF HQs and MI units in non-SF slots, but none ever served as a "Green Beret" as Wilder claims. She wasn't in an SF assignment when awarded the 5G and never served in one once she received it. I hope somebody publicly "outs" her on this one. :munchin

Team Sergeant

10-29-2006, 14:06

I hope somebody publicly "outs" her on this one. :munchin

You just did ;)

504PIR

10-30-2006, 09:43

Unfortunately while the folks on this board and in the community will know the truth. The Mass Media will idolize her as the "first female Green Beret" and use her as a symbol for what left-leaning drivel they are putting out.:mad:

AngelsSix

11-01-2006, 19:35

Ah, you know I should not say anything here....but what the hell, the TS is halfway across the country, LOL!!

We can thank her for getting one thing done, she closed the book on any other females attending the Q-Course.

That is a shame. While I believe personally that women could contribute something to SF, I also know that there are FEW that could make it throught the selection. I have all the heart in the world to get things done, but my body can only do so much. I accept these limitations and compensate in my own way by being sneakier and shooting better than the bad guys I deal with (LE stuff). I have learned that trying to outdo the guys (cops) just gets me into trouble; now I try to learn from them and work with them. We have quite a few guys in our unit that are pretty squared away and high speed. I am one of the only deployable females in the unit. I won't compromise my values for anything. The guys seem to be unsure how to deal with me because I won't do the usual thing (sleep with everyone who offers). But it is a trip to be in the squad leader's office and hear then telling stories about all the girls that have been in the unit that were "passed around". It is almost like I am one of the guys, LOL.

In any case, if I thought that I had a chance, I would at least give it a shot. To me, to try and have failed is better than never to have tried at all.

NousDefionsDoc

11-01-2006, 20:05

While I believe personally that women could contribute something to SF, I also know that there are FEW that could make it throught the selection.
No, they really couldn't.

"Making it through selection" is not the hard part of being SF. Selection is a continuous and constant process. One does not "make it through" - one does it every waking moment.

Unless you have been on a Team, you can't begin to understand how close Teammates are.

And for the record, I was in several units with females in them, in every single one, every one - there were problems. No, the females did not cause all the problems nor am I blaming them. But it is an indisputable fact. Your own post is evidence.

There are great women in the military and many of them do a fantastic job at what they do. They have no business in SF.

We pass around mags and frags, not Teammates.

The Reaper

11-01-2006, 20:15

K:

I hear what you are saying, but at what price to the program to open it up so that the few who might make it can try? There would inevitably be pressure from very high levels to let a certain number through the pipeline, and standards be damned. Are we that desperate?

I hate to say it, because you have the right attitude, but as you correctly observe, there are things that my body can do that yours can't. There is no way that you can pick me up, much less carry me, nor can you stand up or walk any distance with a mission weight ruck on your back.

As mentioned on another thread, the team is only as strong as its weakest link. You can be the smartest, most MOS proficient individual in the world, and if you can't haul your own weight, there is no room on a small team like SF for you. I can virtually guarantee that a female would be the last at rucking, the weakest physically, and almost certainly the slowest runner. That is why there are two sets of standards on the PT Test, with the females generally being allowed 3:00 per mile or more for the same distance. Shorter legs, smaller muscle mass and higher body fat, and less testosterone make this a necessity.

On a sidenote, there are no undeployables in SF due to pregnancies, sexual harrassment, sexual relationships between team members, or rapes of/by team members. No mixed sex units that I am aware of can say that.

I love women, have a daughter, and no, I do not want her on an ODA.

TR

AngelsSix

11-09-2006, 20:59

As far as I am concerned, the Air Force has given me the freedom to be part of an operational team. We have deployed to the ME many times, including IRAQ and the Stan. The females in my unit either stand their ground and hold the standards or they are put where they are more usefull (there are plenty of desk jobs in AF SF). We have sent females outside the wire on more than one occasion (there were a few that were heavy gunners) that have held their own and pulled their weight (literally). I believe that a lot of what goes on in the military (from observing that in Iraq) is misogyny. I know that there are women out there that can keep up. Seems to me like there are men out there that can't handle that.

The Reaper

11-09-2006, 21:17

Then why are there two sets of standards on the PT test?

If a 20 year old man has to run a 16:00 two-miler to pass, why should the female get 21:00? Will the enemy slow down for her? If I have to do 45 good push-ups to pass, or 80 to max it, why shouldn't you? If the requirement is for the team to hump 130 pounds each (and I have stood on the ramp of a C130 with far more than that), and hump it for 12 miles, is it fair to ask the male team members to carry yours for you?

Why can a unit that does PT together not hold its all of its members to the same standards?

Please remember that this isn't AF SF, it is Army SF. Special Forces, not Security Forces. We don't ride a lot or live at the FOB for very long. What works for AF cops may not be the ideal for Army combat arms units. I think that the Army has done a pretty good job of determining which jobs Army females are capable of performing. Why do you think you know better?

Facts are than men have greater muscle mass, tremendously more upper body strength, more endurance, are more durable, and are more aggressive due to elevated testosterone. We cannot get pregnant, or menstruate. Women have good hand eye coordination, equal reflexes, equal intelligence, and a lower center of gravity. If I want pilots, those factors are a wash and either should be equally capable. If I want pack mules who can run, gun, and brawl, if necessary, I think I can see which gender I would be selecting from.

Your favorite Neanderthal misogynist, who loves women-

TR

Razor

11-09-2006, 23:10

Tell ya what, A6. You get all the pro sports teams in the US and the international Olympic teams to integrate, and have women winning their competitions 40-50% of the time, I'll reconsider my opinion.

Why, in an area where the participants are at the very tops of their fields, where failing only means you lost a game, are people fine with maintaining segregation, yet when the stakes include peoples lives (not only in combat, but lives in garrison as well) folks fail to see the very obvious physical and social reasons for the separation?

AngelsSix

11-10-2006, 20:48

Hey , no sh!t guys, I understand both parts of the argument and agree with different aspects of both. And I wasn't calling you a misogynist personally Reaper, please understand I realize that I have a slanted point of view. And I do realize that there will never be a female SF. I just like to see who uses the age-old arguments. Funny thing, I have met more men that were just as whiny and useless as some of the women I have come across in the military. The bottom line here is that I personally feel that if a woman should be in the military, she should have to meet the same standards as men. I think that would solve the problem of women in places they do not belong altogether. I noticed that in most places women tend to be more of a distraction than anything else and believe me when I say these women love the attention. :D

RockyFarr

11-11-2006, 12:43

I know of her. That was when SF was branch immaterial and all newly assigned offciers, docs, vets, dentist, chaplains, staff officers were expected to go. She was 7th SFGA'a S-1, I think. Long gone. Peyton Williams as an SF officer in her class that i knew.

I terrize the SWC Gift shop occcasionally asking "Where are the shirts that say "My mother was a green beret' "

brownapple

11-11-2006, 20:28

JLF

11-20-2006, 01:41

Army MPs do the same. That doesn't have anything to do with Special Forces.

NDD and The Reaper gave you real-life answers, and Razor pointed out the next step that women must achieve before they have any business discussing integration into Combat Arms, nevermind Special Forces.

A6,

Let me assist you on this one; I speak Air Force and I know a thing or two about women ;).

I fully appreciate your enthusiasm and I won’t even go into the whole enthusiasm isn’t a course of action speech either. I understand that you are smarter if not the smartest, quicker, faster, sneakier to boot. And having listened to the whole rant of many women in the past on the intense pain threshold tolerances that are realized through childbirth, I’ll even assume that you can take pain really really well. Otherwise why else would you continue down this path…

And, although you’ve mentioned your self diagnosed physical limitations, I’m just going to overlook that and chalk it up to your great sense of humbleness. You won’t catch me off guard on that one missy.

But my big question is, are you a scout or something for the main effort? I mean is this a probe? Where is the horde of other women who are self-proclaimed equal to the task… I mean certainly you aren’t all by yourself on this one right? You’ve got all those other ladies out there in cyberland geosynced to launch the invasion right? Did you think you were going to change a mindset all by your onesies? You didn’t intend to “roger up” all the women of the world without their consent to this did you?

Here’s the deal, you can talk about “girl-power” this and that all you want, hell I'm down for it but when your done I want to see it; show me the money… And, not just you but women as a unified effort need to do it… Hell, that would bring proud tears to my eyes to see a special group of women who say “no” to gender norming… Who refuse those “light” standards that are afforded to them based on being female. So next time you go for you body fat measurement or P.T. test make sure you tell them how you feel about all of this and bring your posse… Strength in numbers and all… And don’t forget somewhere in all of that to take a few minutes out of your day change the minds of Congress too because that’ll take a world shift in thought processes… Apparently, politicians (male or female) seem to care what the world thinks of them (most times more than the value of doing the right thing).

Bottom line: Actions…, actions speak louder than words. More actions less words and don’t forget to corral all those other capable ladies out there too.

I believe in you, now go out there and do it. You can start by having an immediate effect on those things within your current span of control. Maybe start by correcting the perception of those “other” women in your section. Don’t try to be one of the “boys,” instead make being “one of the ladies,” finally mean something worth while for once in history that will endure and overcome a generation of generations.

Or, if that provides to be a little overwhelming to you and you realize that you are on an island unto yourself then maybe consider a different approach…

Earn it… I have, I will and I will continue to do so. I know it’s hard to believe but most people don’t want to hear just how cool and capable I am… I usually have to prove it through demonstrated competency that is consistently correct, dependable and equal or better to my peers (otherwise we call it luck).

Good luck but I’m sure if you won’t need it. You'll have to forgive us simple men... we're only basing our ideas and judgment on historical evidence, common sense and reality.

P.s. I'll spare you my theory on what it feels like to give birth if you spare me your theories on something you've never experienced.

JLF

11-20-2006, 02:50

x SF med

11-20-2006, 07:44

The IDF has experimented with limited roles of women in combat units - and the Sabras have performed pretty well, under the scope allowed to them. BUT, there are no female commandos and no female parachute infantry, or regular infantry for that matter. There are female tankers, but the Israelis have found that no matter how motivated well trained and equipped their Sabras are , they are not Ruck Humping Infantry /Commandos.

A6- no bashing involved, just facts - and yes there are female field intelligence agents in Israel - but they are not door kickers.

Team Sergeant

11-20-2006, 08:13

Now I'm just curious because throughout my small time here in the USAF I've heard these theories uttered by females before saying they could do my job ECT. To which I offer them an opportunity to show up for the initial phyiscal screening P.T. test. Many decline all others have failed.

My question to you is, "do Army females give you this same theory?" I mean if I had a nickle for every time a female said this thing to me... well I'd be somewhere north of a buck fifty and I could shop the value menu at Burger King for a soft drink and a side of ketchup.

Just curious. Grass is green on the other side kind of thing and all...

JLF,

After Desert Storm Special Forces went before a select panel of congress and put an end to females attempting to join our unit.

It might also be because of our missions, when we're not on high risk hostage rescue mission we might be dropping deep behind ememy lines for a few months to overthrow a government. Or sent to capture or kill a very high value terrorist/ target. Very few men on the planet actually desire to do what we do. 99.9999% of the women would not even think to attempt it.

And unlike the AF we Army combat arms types interact very little with military females, so to answer your question, no, we don't get the questions you seem to from females.

Team Sergeant

Matta mile

11-20-2006, 09:24

"no, we don't get the questions you seem to from females" T.S.

And, thats a Good Thing!:)
MM

NousDefionsDoc

11-20-2006, 20:30

"When you can do what I do, you can go where I go."

Team Sergeant

10-26-2007, 09:00

Seems Kate Wilder is stumping for Blow Job bill clinton's wife.

Seems Kate Wilder is using google to "find her name on the internet" and set the story straight.

It would seem she cannot find her way here to ProfessionalSoldiers.com, we must not be getting picked up on google.:rolleyes:

Seems Kate is about to cash in on her "Green Beret" as she states she's writing a book. I'm betting the book comes out just before the 2008 presidential nomination. Funny how that works.

I wonder if Kate knows the "Green Beret" that john kerry "rescued"?

Consider this an invite Kate, there's a few hundred Special Forces soldiers on this website just waiting to ask you a few questions.

http://www.vajoe.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=9060&p=1

Richard

10-26-2007, 10:53

"COO" Kennedy and Katie Wilder in support of HRC--that confirms my determination to "never" vote for HRC. I hope Ola Mize will weigh in on the Kate Wilder issue if she gets out of control and they start parading her around the campaign trail as an accepted member of the SF brotherhood. Hers is one funeral I would not attend.

Nostalgic note-During all the SFOC foofarah that she and her attorney kicked up, I was DET CDR ODA-726 and remember the t-shirt you could buy on Yadkin Road that had Kate wilder's face as if it was being viewed through an ART-2 reticle. Joe Lutz said he'd throw any soldier in his command out if he caught one of us wearing it. I wish now that I had bought one just to have today! :)

Retired W4

10-28-2007, 09:42

Excerpt from: http://www.vajoe.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=9060&p=1

"keep in mind that all I wanted was a slot in an army school....I wasn't asking to be put on an A-team"

I guess she didn't want to do any of that SF stuff, she just wanted to attend the school so she could... do what? Maybe she was trying to "maintain her political viability". Humm, where have I heard that before?

"I applied to attend the Special Forces Officer Course several times and was turned down by the school. I later re-applied and this time sent my application to DA ..."

I would like to see the endorsements on that application. The real endorsements probably came in through the back door of some Congressional office.

I'm sure her google alert is screaming PS.COM! Maybe when she is done with the softball stuff at vajoe she will honor us with a post. Hope she reads the stickies first.

Snaquebite

10-28-2007, 10:09

I remember all the uproar. She was caught (with 2 other guys) breaking the rules and cheating. She turned it into a sex discrimination thing and the other two accepted their medicine..."The boot".

The only green beret ever awarded to a woman came from a judge. According to retired Special Forces officer Lt. Col. William E. Bailey, Cpt. Kathleen Wilder attended all three phases of Special Forces training in the summer of 1980, but during the final week "she and two male students were caught caching their rucksacks. That is, she and her compatriots were not carrying the rucksacks as required by the instructors, but hiding them to pick up at a later time and date in what is referred to as a Mission Support Site. All three were dropped from the course, ostensibly for cheating." The men accepted the outcome, Bailey has written, but Wilder got a lawyer who argued she was a victim of sex discrimination. The court agreed, ordering that she receive a course completion certificate. She never spent a day in an actual Special Forces unit, according to Bailey, but she continues to play off her reputation as "the nation's only female Green Beret."

http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/330frnuq.asp?pg=2

kgoerz

10-28-2007, 15:40

I went through in 83. The stories I heard was it was a "joke" that went wrong.

I also heard she didn't make any of the ruck marches with the proper weight. It was more of a " guided tour" of the Q Course for her. We can thank her for getting one thing done, she closed the book on any other females attending the Q-Course.

She must have had some dirt on someone.........

TS

There were rumors about her when I went through the course in 83. Some were, not very flattering re: her character and use of gender for advancement. (ok, does that get me a PC prize of some sort - NDD I think we went through the course at the same time, maybe the same class)
__________________

Where any of you in the all NCO Class in 83?

Team Sergeant

10-28-2007, 15:46

Kate Wilder was here and one of you mean Green Berets pissed her off!!!!!:rolleyes:

k8wilder: "As for the other discussion forum that you provided the link to, I've just now checked it out. I've never seen it before, and have no intensions of visiting it again. But I see that they've quoted an individual whose comments I have seen before and who, for whatever his reasons are, pretends to know my story...which he does not. Everything he has stated about me is a falsehood, and it is because of his statements that I've found it necessary to do a Google Alert. While we are still deciding what to do about this individual, I will leave all of you with this one piece of advice: in this country we have laws to protect people from defamation of character."

http://www.vajoe.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=9060&p=2

Pete

10-28-2007, 16:00

Did she just call somebody a liar?

Hmmmm.

She singled out one guy in this thread as a liar. So drop any one guys post ans the rest are true. Double Hmmmmm.

Team Sergeant

10-28-2007, 16:09

Did she just call somebody a liar?

Hmmmm.

I'm thinking so.....

We need the court records and we need to post them, before her "book" comes out.

Hear that Kate Wilder ("PING" another Google alert sent to her email :D) we're going to find and post everything concerning your "earning" the Green Beret.

Does anyone know the names of the other "cheaters" that were sent packing?:rolleyes:

Pete

10-28-2007, 16:13

...Does anyone know the names of the other "cheaters" that were sent packing?:rolleyes:

I bet she does. Might be nice to ask her to start spitting out some names. After all she spent a number of months with them. She should know most of them. Goes to court there should be a right nice number of people on the stand.

This could get right interesting.

Team Sergeant

10-28-2007, 16:35

You've got to be kidding, looks like "delusions of grandeur". kate is throwing around the "Green Beret" like she actually earned it.......:rolleyes:

Kate Wilder has lived in the 42nd District since 1988. Kate served our country with distinction, retiring from the U.S. Army as a Lieutenant Colonel and settling down in Northern Virginia.

While in the Army, Kate broke down barriers, overcame abuse and harrassment to become the first woman Green Beret in Army history. Just to put this in perspective, President Kennedy once said "the green beret is a symbol of excellence, a badge of courage, and a mark of distiction in the fight for freedom."

For all these reasons, plus the fact that we need someone who can beat Dave Albo this year, we are calling on Kate Wilder to demonstrate her courage and her ability to lead people once again. Last year, we saw what beating one incumbent Republican can do in the United States Senate - and Kate Wilder played a big part in that. This year, we want to see Kate bring her Green Beret strengths to bear on Dave Albo, and on the government-hating obstructionists that currently hold power in the House of Delegates. Because Dave Albo must go, it's time to Draft Kate Wilder to serve.

http://www.gowilder.com/

x-factor

10-28-2007, 17:49

Thats my district she's running in.

So much for voting straight Democrat. ;)

lksteve

10-28-2007, 17:52

So much for voting straight Democrat. is there such a thing...?

x-factor

10-28-2007, 17:53

Just a little humor. :)

Retired W4

10-28-2007, 17:56

I can't believe one of you mean Green Beret guys actually caused Kate to get her a Google Alert.:eek: Oh, the tragedy, the humanity.

dmgedgoods

10-28-2007, 18:29

I'm thinking so.....

We need the court records and we need to post them, before her "book" comes out.

Hear that Kate Wilder ("PING" another Google alert sent to her email :D) we're going to find and post everything concerning your "earning" the Green Beret.

Does anyone know the names of the other "cheaters" that were sent packing?:rolleyes:

What locality did her indiscretions take place? Give me as much info as you can and Google may help destroy her as much as she thinks it may help her (alerts are cute).

Shawn

GratefulCitizen

10-28-2007, 18:36

I would normally refrain from comment, but she seems to be entering the realm of public figure due to the "Draft Kate Wilder" movement.
Some forshadowing of her political and governing philosophies should be evident from her own words.

===============================
===============================
Excerpts from her post:
( http://www.vajoe.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=9060&p=2 )
(my comments in green)

... My initial intention was to set the record straight and move on...
The final arbiter of truth?

...I see that they've quoted an individual whose comments I have seen before and who, for whatever his reasons are, pretends to know my story...which he does not. Everything he has stated about me is a falsehood, and it is because of his statements that I've found it necessary to do a Google Alert. ...
Is this the equivalent of telling the principal? Maybe it's the equivalent of a UN resolution.

...I caution you all to beware of what you write and how you write it. ...
One of the qualities I look for in a politician: suppression of criticism. :rolleyes:

I was going to respond to some of your comments, but decided it best not to and just move on.
She thinks it's better to cut and run.
===============================
===============================

I unconditionally applaud her for her military service.
However, if she wishes to enter politics, she's a fair target.

BrianH

10-28-2007, 22:46

While we are still deciding what to do about this individual, I will leave all of you with this one piece of advice: in this country we have laws to protect people from defamation of character. When one is defamed and it is in written form, it is called libel. Libel laws pertain to the internet as well as to print. You may state any 'opinion' you wish, but when you state something as fact and it's a lie, then it's libel and the individual who wrote it is subject to the laws of the land. So I caution you all to beware of what you write and how you write it.

This is my favorite part.

Ms. Wilder, I hope you know that there is an extremely strong defense to litigation of libel...

the absolute truth.

Pete

10-29-2007, 05:35

Kate Wilder was here and one of you mean Green Berets pissed her off!!!!!:rolleyes:

http://www.vajoe.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=9060&p=2

I don't think things are going the way she wanted over there. She has her drum beaters but the others are not so understanding. They are wondering why she isn't answering the basic questions.

The post about the story with the lawyer has put a few big holes in below her water line. The pumps may not be able to keep up with the rising water.

So when is she going to say "Here are the names of the men in my class. Ask them about how I did in the class." Seems simple to me. :D

Pete

Pete

10-29-2007, 06:25

Google Alert:

I think if you read through this thread you find that there is no dispute from the posters that the Army authorized you to wear the "Green Beret". The question is in the "How".

One of two things happened:

1) You went through the course, passed all the requirements and graduated with your class

or

2) You went through the course, "something" happened, you did not graduate with your class, some legal actions occured and the Center gave you a certificate saying that you graduated with that class and sent you on your way to other things.

So lets cut to the chase, is your story that it was number 1 or 2?

Sign up with the site, follow the rules you will be given and post away.

Snaquebite

10-29-2007, 08:37

I keep seeing references to here being "Tabbed". Tabs were not even around when she supposedly "completed" the course. Those orders would have to have been cut later. I would love to see them.

Remington Raidr

10-29-2007, 08:39

Richard

10-29-2007, 08:44

Guys,

After following K8's current message of "Back off! I've got an attorney and he will bite you if I say so!" I sure wish I had bought one of those t-shirts with her picture on it so I could begin wearing it now.

We had a similar soldier who used the same type of ploys to get her way in grad school and at the AmEmbassy-Bonn. I never thought very much of her, either.

IMHO, K8ee is one of those modest little people who has much to be modest about and, although she has no enemies, she appears to be intensely disliked by her friends.

:munchin

Richard

Pete

10-29-2007, 08:57

I keep seeing references to here being "Tabbed". Tabs were not even around when she supposedly "completed" the course. Those orders would have to have been cut later. I would love to see them.

I'm sure she has them but "Tabbed" dates a person. As you know back in our, you & me, early days it was "Flash Qualified", "got my S (5G)" or "S qualified". Also a "candy striper" was not a little girl that volunteered in a hospital:D.

"Tabbed" and "Long Tab" have grown from when 18 series became a Branch. Slang moves with the ages.

Team Sergeant

10-29-2007, 09:11

LTC Kate Wilder, you NEVER served as a Special Forces soldier or as a Green Beret. Story has it you were sent packing the day after you earned your green beret in a court house.:munchin

We're waiting for you to post the truth....... this is a second invite to ProfessionalSoldiers.com. There is two sides to every story and you are welcome to post yours.

But please feel free to live off our reputation, earned in blood.:mad:

(This was written a year ago....... see below)

Webb Is Reluctant To Advertise Duty
Veteran Blasts Allen's Public Comments

By Michael D. Shear and Tim Craig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, October 18, 2006; Page B01

Several of the women said Webb was simply expressing the views of most men in the military at that time. "When I was in the Special Forces, I can tell you, when they speak of Jim's article, believe me, the men were disgruntled by having us in the military. It was a tumultuous time," said retired Col. Kate Wilder, who says she was the only woman ever to serve as a Green Beret. "But it wasn't yesterday. It was 30 years ago. Life moves on."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/17/AR2006101701408.html

The Reaper

10-29-2007, 10:48

"When I was in the Special Forces[/COLOR], I can tell you, when they speak of Jim's article, believe me, the men were disgruntled by having us in the military. It was a tumultuous time," said retired Col. Kate Wilder, who says she was the only woman ever to serve as a Green Beret. "But it wasn't yesterday. It was 30 years ago. Life moves on."[/B]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/17/AR2006101701408.html

You know, I do not think that you can "serve as a Green Beret" unless you are in an SF coded position, which to my knowledge, she never was. Team members serve. 18 (formerly SF ASI coded) positions serve. Staff people in other billets may be serving in Special Forces, but are not serving AS Green Berets.

As a matter of fact, I believe that it would be correct to state that you were "awarded" a Green Beret, but not correct to say that you were "in the Special Forces". I believe that you were in a Military Intelligence staff position at SWCS. To say that you earned the beret may have been questionable as well, depending on the circumstances surrounding your activities in the SFQC.

I too look forward to seeing all of the facts laid out, to include your version of the events. Any embellishment of your SF service would not speak well to your credibility though.

TR

echoes

10-30-2007, 19:59

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/DraftKateWilder/signatures.html

Am peeking out slowly...been on hospital duty this week, but darnit all if I didn't just sign the petition to "Draft Kate"...

This was my sig, and comment...wonder if talking to a woman will help?:eek:

#236 echoes from PS.com

"Greetings Kate! As a woman, I just wanted you to know I agree that it is disgusting to claim what we are not. Agree 100%. Not being Real is what you are against, and that is just great. Now, come on over to the site, and discuss your "SF Service"..."

To clarify in case...She is an insult to my gender!

Pete

10-30-2007, 20:12

#236 echoes from PS.com

echoes some "people" are going to throw some rocks in your direction. You're a salty type and will handle it well.

echoes

10-30-2007, 20:24

echoes some "people" are going to throw some rocks in your direction. You're a salty type and will handle it well.

Thank You Sir. Just hope none are QP's.

I just cannot handle the fact that anyone would claim to be SF when they are not. Any person who has spent some time here will agree that ya'll are a cut above.

I admire that quality, and look up to it.

This board, and it's members have helped people that they maybe do not know about, just by their, "Never Quit, Never Give Up," attitude.

For that, I am eternally grateful.

Holly

NousDefionsDoc

10-30-2007, 20:38

Wasn't asking to be put on an A-Team - just wanted a school slot...yeah, that's why we work so hard training those O3s, so they can just have a school slot or a skill identifier or a tab - not like we need them on the damn Teams or anything...

Wonder what Team went without a TL for a year because you "just wanted a school slot"?

You actually sound proud about it.

lksteve

10-30-2007, 21:19

Wasn't asking to be put on an A-Team - just wanted a school slot...yeah, that's why we work so hard training those O3s, so they can just have a school slot or a skill identifier or a tab - not like we need them on the damn Teams or anything....just a reminder...in 1980, that slot could have been for an O1 or O2...or even an O4...

NousDefionsDoc

10-30-2007, 21:22

just a reminder...in 1980, that slot could have been for an O1 or O2...or even an O4...

Oh sure, take her side...

Ambush Master

10-30-2007, 21:32

Thank You Sir. Just hope none are QP's.

I just cannot handle the fact that anyone would claim to be SF when they are not. Any person who has spent some time here will agree that ya'll are a cut above.

I admire that quality, and look up to it.

This board, and it's members have helped people that they maybe do not know about, just by their, "Never Quit, Never Give Up," attitude.

For that, I am eternally grateful.

Holly

Not to worry there Lady!!!

We have your 6, so to speak!!

Take care.
Martin

brownapple

10-30-2007, 23:14

Oh sure, take her side...

Hey! Without XOs back then, who would all the senior NCOs have used as their "go fors"? :D

echoes

10-31-2007, 07:05

Not to worry there Lady!!!

We have your 6, so to speak!!

Take care.
Martin

AM Sir, Thanks! ;)

Looks like she has some new "voters"...:lifter

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/DraftKateWilder/signatures.html

Holly

Team Sergeant

10-31-2007, 12:03

Kate Kate Kate, Kate Wilder, guess what a few "real" Green Berets sent to ProfessionalSoldiers.com, a news paper article dated 21 Aug 1980, you remember...you and your attorney sure had a lot to say!

Please tell us which "lie" was printed concerning your earning the Green Beret? Or do you need to re-read what you (and your attorney) said so many years ago?

Kate Wilder do you remember Renny Deese? (That would be your attorney.)

Funny how the news paper article mentions "sex discrimination charges" care to enlighten our readers concerning these charges?

Did you really threaten a "federal lawsuit"? And got a congressman involved.

How come I’m not surprised.

I also heard there was a Special Forces, Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient who was also involved and he was not on your side of the issue.......

Was there anyone in Special Forces you didn't step on to earn your beret?

Team Sergeant

The Reaper

10-31-2007, 12:28

Was there anyone in Special Forces you didn't step on to earn your beret?

Team Sergeant

It occurs to me that she didn't earn a beret as much as she was given one (and a Certificate of Completion, rather than a Diploma) after reportedly violating standards and getting a lawyer involved.

TR

CSB

10-31-2007, 15:05

1 - Would someone scan that newspaper article and post it please?

2 - For the youngsters who have become SF after about 1984 or so:

a. There was no SF Tab. There was no SF branch.

b. A soldier assigned to an SF slot who was airborne qualified and awaiting a school quota wore a green beret, BUT, in front at the bottom was a 1/2 inch tall slice of the group flash. It looked like the striker bar on the side of a small box of matches. It was officially called either the "striker bar" or the "recognition bar," but everyone referred to it as a "Candy Stripe." The soldier wore the SF shoulder patch.

c. Those assigned to an SF support position who were not airborne qualified wore the green baseball cap, and the SF shoulder patch.

d. When and if the soldier graduated from the Q course, he sewed on the "Full Flash." That was the mark of a "fully qualfied" SF soldier, almost always assigned to a Detachment, whether an A Detachment, B Detachment or C Detachment. (An aside, gee I wonder what they would call the new SF counterterrism unit formed in the 1970's).

e. If a full flash qualified SF soldier were assigned out of an SF assignment, there was nothing on his uniform that would denote him as SF qualfied, since he would no longer wear the green beret.

f. When the Long Tab was created, it was "semi-automatically" awarded to all of the former "Full Flash" SF soldiers. I don't know how other units took care of it, but in my SF company the Sergeant Major grabbed up copies of all the diploma or orders from the men in the company and sent them up as a batch with a cover letter to JFK Center, who then cut orders awarding the Tab.

g. Probably a minor tehnically, but we were told that wearing the Long Tab was not authorized based on a diploma and/or orders for the MOS identifier, the Tab was "an award" and you could not sew it on until official orders were cut.

Paragraph g. leads to another question based on the Ranger Tab, which is also an "award." At least when I went through Ranger 8-74, we were told that it was possible to complete training, receive a "Certificate of Training" that certified you have been there the required time and attended all classes, but NOT be awarded the coveted Black and Gold Ranger Tab, which was awarded, if at all, in separate orders.

Since K8WILDER recites she wore the Long Tab, can we assume she obtained an order from JFK Center awarding her the Tab?

Guy

10-31-2007, 15:52

JLF,

After Desert Storm Special Forces went before a select panel of congress and put an end to females attempting to join our unit.

Team SergeantI'm pretty damn sure! During the panel discussion, a SF Soldier came in with all the gear we carried at the time; which we would carry on missions.

NOT a single individual on the panel (including men) could stand up when; they put on the entire load-out.

Stay safe.

Ambush Master

10-31-2007, 17:20

Team Sergeant

10-31-2007, 17:26

A request to post the article was sent today to the Fayetteville Observer, below is the answer ProfessionalSoldiers.com received.

Prejudice Kept Her From Beret, Woman Officer Says
Dated 21 Aug 1980 and was written by Steve HUETTEL

For copyright-protection reasons, we do not allow the republishing of our articles on other Web sites as you've requested.

It would be OK to quote from a sentence or two, but not to copy the article.

I'm sorry that we could not accommodate your request.

Sincerely,

Charles Broadwell
Publisher
The Fayetteville Observer

lksteve

10-31-2007, 17:59

Hey! Without XOs back then, who would all the senior NCOs have used as their "go fors"? not to mention jump the generator and seat...and for the amusement of the O3s, Mr. Vice at dining ins for damn near the whole tour...:eek:

Gypsy

10-31-2007, 18:28

A request to post the article was sent today to the Fayetteville Observer, below is the answer ProfessionalSoldiers.com received.

Perhaps they'll consider republishing the article.

lksteve

10-31-2007, 20:45

Perhaps they'll consider republishing the article.I doubt it. What would be their reason, that a former soldier is now running for political office in another state?

Gypsy

10-31-2007, 21:17

I doubt it. What would be their reason, that a former soldier is now running for political office in another state?

Well I was thinking along the lines of her attempt to cash in using something she did not earn...but was given through a court action. In my opinion that makes her a fraud. Perhaps running the original article, or parts of it, with an updated angle would call attention to that fact...

Roguish Lawyer

10-31-2007, 21:56

K8's current message of "Back off! I've got an attorney and he will bite you if I say so!"

How big a boy is your attorney, Ms. Wilder? :munchin

Pete

11-01-2007, 05:18

Well I was thinking along the lines of her attempt to cash in using something she did not earn...but was given through a court action. In my opinion that makes her a fraud. Perhaps running the original article, or parts of it, with an updated angle would call attention to that fact...

She's running as a Democrat. Think JK, who served in VN as he will tell anybody, after he reported for duty. Although what he did was out there the press was not interested.

To the left being Swiftboated means lies. To us it means truth. Facts can be checked but the MSM is not interested in facts - only whats good for Democrats.

Divemaster

11-03-2007, 22:26

Run Katie, run! I think the guys who were there with you will make the Swift Boat crowd look like amateurs.

BTW, I was NOT the "divemaster" who posted on the draft Kate petition. I spell better than that.

:munchin

Gypsy

11-04-2007, 17:16

She's running as a Democrat. Think JK, who served in VN as he will tell anybody, after he reported for duty. Although what he did was out there the press was not interested.

To the left being Swiftboated means lies. To us it means truth. Facts can be checked but the MSM is not interested in facts - only whats good for Democrats.

Understood, and good points all around.

Logan

12-04-2007, 23:53

Im a little late on this thread but I wanted to add this.
I was on ODA 541 (SCUBA) at this time and I remeber Wilder for two reasons.
She was assigned to or worked in the 5th Group Headquarters S2 shop. Im not sure if she was on orders to 5th Group or attached but she was there as I and had to report to the Group 2 for a detail and guess who I worked for....Ms Captain Wilder. Scuttle butt was she and the Group S2 had a thing going on.
She also was in the same jump master school (run by 5th) I was in and failed because she could not get the bundle out the door on the green light. Darn thing was to heavy. The way I remember it she tried to get the standards changed (lighter bundle) for her so she could lift it but was refused. The light went green and she began to push and shove and scoot and darn if she didn't get the budle out the door.....But The Red Light Was Now On.......She did not pass.
I had one of the T Shirts with the cross hairs over her image but lost tract of it over the years.
She did get cought along with a couple other officers when they ditched the ruck sacks during a land navigation course in the Q course. SWC screwed up by recycling the male officers but terminating her. As I remember it this was the basis of the law suite. Males got to go back and females did not.
Anyway that how I remember it. Of course the further I get away from these events the harder it is to recall the exact facts.....I could be wrong.

colmurph

12-25-2007, 09:51

I met Katy Wilder with her JAG lawyer, Col. Roe from 82d Div. in the bar that used to be on the first floor of Moon Hall. They were celebrating the fact that she won her case and got the Beret. The next day she was gone.

CosaNostraUSMC

12-25-2007, 13:59

Gents, this whole thing sounds like a flick I once saw, with that other whore , "Demi", in it.

Any takers on her personal story, being the concept for that script?

AngelsSix

12-29-2007, 18:57

Dang, I am surprised that this thread is still going. I had thought it would have died by now. I am certain that my views on the situation have changed a great deal since the original post. I will relate that I have a different view on how men relate to women who openly look to become something that is "verbotten" (sp). I am not a feminist, but I believe that if some one can accomplish a goal and not be a danger to themselves or others, that they should at least be given the opportunity.

Gents, this whole thing sounds like a flick I once saw, with that other whore , "Demi", in it.

Any takers on her personal story, being the concept for that script?

Whore?? WOW. You have an interesting view on women.

Team Sergeant

12-29-2007, 19:13

Dang, I am surprised that this thread is still going. I had thought it would have died by now. I am certain that my views on the situation have changed a great deal since the original post. I will relate that I have a different view on how men relate to women who openly look to become something that is "verbotten" (sp). I am not a feminist, but I believe that if some one can accomplish a goal and not be a danger to themselves or others, that they should at least be given the opportunity.

I would agree with you, but society has spoken and will not allow women in ground combat, yet.

I was surprised when the Navy allowed women onboard carriers!

And women fly every aicraft in our current inventory......

Allowing women to engage in ground combat is right around the corner.

GratefulCitizen

12-30-2007, 17:37

I am not a feminist, but I believe that if some one can accomplish a goal and not be a danger to themselves or others, that they should at least be given the opportunity.

Providing for personal goals and personal opportunity should only be a consideration if it will attract desirable recruits/candidates.

In general, whatever methods select qualified persons most efficiently should be used, without regard to "opportunity".
It does not matter if some individuals miss out on an "opportunity".

In the end, it is not about the individual.
It is about the security of our nation and posterity.

Just .02 cents from a non-military person.
(Though it may not even be worth the .02 cents.)

Para

12-31-2007, 07:58

I am not a feminist, but I believe that if some one can accomplish a goal and not be a danger to themselves or others, that they should at least be given the opportunity.

At what cost? In a level playing field where the standards remained the same, irregardless of sex (i.e. no special APFT standards), few would disagree that the majority of men are physically stronger then women. Although, I will conseed that there are a minority out there that are more of a man then most men. Yet every "opportunity" comes with a financial dollar value attached to it.

Take an Infantryman, it costs roughly $30,000 to train one. If women where allowed to have the opporunity to attempt to achieve an equal standard at which maybe 20% could achieve (assuming 20% could max their push ups to achieve the minimum standard required by males), it would cost $150,000 to train 1 woman for the Infantry.

Budgets are already being hammered. It would be financially irresponsible to even attempt this course of action.

echoes

12-31-2007, 15:27

As a female, I used to think that fair is square, and we should be given the same opportunities as men in all area of the military.

(After all, I knew several women like myself who enjoyed weight lifting, boxing, repelling down cliffs, and generally wanted to protect themselves, rather than relying on a man to do it.)

Though after studying about what the SF men do, my opinion changed. Females just do not belong in that type of close-contact, small-unit, high speed environment. How could it be succesful? :rolleyes:

Just my .02, after reading what the SF men had to say.

Edit to add: Though it doesn't mean "We" cannot kick a little ass!:lifter
Holly

bricklayer

01-01-2008, 01:18

Women in the US Army Special Forces? What the hell is gonna happen when one becomes President?:boohoo:confused::munchin

Pete S

01-01-2008, 02:33

I think there's also just a difference in how men and women are viewed. Men always will view women differently in our culture, especially the conservative types who tend to make up the combat arms I'd think. Such men view women as one of the things they go to war to protect.

Yes, these are the gender roles associated with our culture.
No matter what happens, people usually fall back onto the gender roles they are most comfortable with.
Using the Navy as an example, there are to many pregnancies, adulterous romances, prostitution, etc onboard ships to make it work.
IIRC there was a study done by the IDF on integrating their front line units.

Razor

01-01-2008, 13:07

Men always will view women differently in our culture, especially the conservative types who tend to make up the combat arms I'd think.

Given most of the choices out there, our cultural views don't seem that restrictive.

echoes

01-01-2008, 13:40

Women in the US Army Special Forces? What the hell is gonna happen when one becomes President?:boohoo:confused::munchin

Sir,

Folks far smarter than I can answer that point politically.

From a female civilian standpoint, I do not want "The most powerful Nation in the World" run by a woman. Why? Because the U.S. has to deal with other countries on this planet...that do not share or understand Our belief system about women. It would be like removing all doors to Our borders, to any and all attack. IMHO.

my .02

Holly

JMI

01-01-2008, 13:42

Given most of the choices out there, our cultural views don't seem that restrictive.
Pretty close to the least restrictive, IMO.

HQ6

01-01-2008, 14:44

I am not a feminist, but I believe that if some one can accomplish a goal and not be a danger to themselves or others, that they should at least be given the opportunity.

I am a feminist, and I still believe that women have no place on a SF team. Men and women are equals. They are not the same. There are some things that are, and should remain, a purely female domain, and there are some things that are, and should remain, a purely male domain.

Team Sergeant

01-01-2008, 14:55

I am a feminist, and I still believe that women have no place on a SF team. Men and women are equals. They are not the same. There are some things that are, and should remain, a purely female domain, and there are some things that are, and should remain, a purely male domain.

When ground combat technology catches up and physical strength is no longer a priority requirement women will be in ground combat.;)

HQ6

01-01-2008, 15:18

And one day they will make it possible for a man to carry a baby and go through labor and delivery... and I am going to shudder when that happens too ;)

longrange1947

01-01-2008, 17:40

And one day they will make it possible for a man to carry a baby and go through labor and delivery... and I am going to shudder when that happens too ;)

It will be the end to humanity, no more babies. :munchin :D :D

Team Sergeant

01-02-2008, 18:05

From a pure curiousity standpoint, how would technology overcome things like rucking long distances with heavy weight, or carrying a heavy weapon, or being able to carry a fellow soldier, etc...? I would imagine very few women could drag or carry for example a 200 lb man with 50+ lbs of equipment on him.

Not saying this wouldn't/couldn't ever happen, but won't we need cyborg-type technology to overcome the physical problems right now?

I just have a gut feeling that 100 years from now they'll be all sorts of whiz-bang technology developed for the military, much better armor and weapons for soldiers, etc...but ultimately the plain 'old infantryman at his basic self will still be needed.

Will be interesting if we have androids and/or partially-cyborg supersoldiers as well though:D

Guess what, that's exactly what is currently being worked on......;)

http://www.nanotechbuzz.com/50226711/darpa_building_superhuman_exoskeleton_for_tomorrow s_soldiers.php

Technology will catch up to ground combat very soon I predict.

TS

The Reaper

01-02-2008, 18:09

How will you power that in a remote area for weeks at the time?

Man packed nuclear reactor?

Long-time to solve that problem.

As soon as we can, the oil market will take a real fall.

TR

HOLLiS

01-02-2008, 18:50

My thoughts would be on a different approach. It is not about men or women. It is about a person who can meet or exceed a well defined criteria for the job. If the criteria is set up in a way that does not honestly reflect what type of person is needed and in some way design to limit a class of person then that would be wrong.

From everything I have read and been told, very few men can meet or exceed the requirement to be SF. Does that say it has a male bias? No. To decry a bias ignores that the set of standards has been establish over a period that are required for a person to be able to effectively carry out the job.

It would be like me claiming age discrimination if I was rejected from selection. I just think this "female discrimination" is completely bogus.

Kyobanim

01-02-2008, 19:05

GratefulCitizen

01-02-2008, 21:24

I find it hard to imagine that technology will supplant well-trained, well-conditioned men.

Does GPS eliminate the need for land-nav with compass and maps?

Do air-drops eliminate the need to carry gear in a ruck?

Does precision bombing eliminate the need for boots on the ground?

Do corrective lenses, corrective surgury, and excellent optics eliminate the need for good eyesight?

Technology is a supplement to well-trained, well-condition men.
It will not supplant them.

Technology extends the capabilities of those who are already quite capable.
Using technology to compensate for shortcomings (when unnecessary) is an unwise use of finite resources.

CSB

01-02-2008, 21:50

Kyobanim hit it on the head with his comment:

Considering the intimate cultural contacts that SF takes on; how many cultures are there that would even want to interact with a team that had women on it? There's a lot more to the equation than just physical.

As an SF pup, I learned it as:

The primary mission of the United States Army Special Forces is to train, organize, and direct indigenous forces in the conduct of unconventional warfare.

The secondary mission of the United States Army Special Forces is to perform such additional missions as directed by the theater commander for which Special Forces are uniquely suited by virtue of their training, organization, equipment, psychological preparation and rank-rich structure.

There is not a lot of "gender neutral" in those missions.

Defion69

01-03-2008, 04:56

Considering the intimate cultural contacts that SF takes on; how many cultures are there that would even want to interact with a team that had women on it? There's a lot more to the equation than just physical.

Spot on....actually coming in at the end of the = sign. Cultural intelligence is a primary necessity when on an ODA conducting the mission sets raining down from UWO. It's the typical "door kicker" mentality that entices a young pup to want to come into SF and the reality of having an LBG around, under your tutelage or by your side is often overlooked when one aspires to be an 18.

I spent pretty much all my time in LATAM during my ODA time and now live in the AO and I am sure most of you can imagine how a Latino soldier (officer or enlisted) would react to an American female instructor (machisto mentality). Aside from the fact that there are female soldiers and police officers in Latin America, the treatment and protocols are not the same as in the US. I live here. Sexual harrassment isn't a big issue as in the US. In fact, "doble sentido" or double meanings are a common way of speaking within genders and a running joke.

I am sure pretty similar issues arise in our brethren Groups AO's. The fact is in SF we work with TCN's and at least in SF, working with women might bring about culturally sensitive issues that can have an affect on the mission.

Other combat arms....that is another story to be debated.

x-factor

01-03-2008, 16:40

Pete

01-03-2008, 16:53

....I can't speak for anyone else but, even in my short experience, I've seen several times where female medical, veterinary, civil affairs, linguists, or intelligence officers were attached temporarily to ODAs....

People are attached to SF Teams all the to fill a mission requirement. Some are SF, some are not. Most have been male, a very few have been female.

Attached is not the same as assigned.

And on the subject of females going through SF. If the 18 series is opened to females will they have to meet the same standards for entry? The young man's PT standards - or the females?

How many females in mixed gender schools make the run in half the time the top male did and only did half as many pushups and situps as the guy but yet the female got the High PT award?

Remember the point of this thread, she was given a chance but failed to make the standards. If you newbies on the thread will go back and read all of it you will see the ins and outs and politicing - but she failed to meet the standards.

Para

01-03-2008, 18:06

There's a flipside to Kyobanim's issue though.

How often would it be beneficial to have a female along for dealing with indigenous persons (especially females) in a culturally sensitive way?

If a male soldier searches a Muslim man's wife or daughter you've shamed him profoundly and thereby made an enemy. But if a female soldier searches her separate from the males, it is acceptable and the Muslim man will probably appreciate the discretion.

Female-to-female searching, discreet intelligence collection/observation, interrogation methods that take advantage of the opposing side's prejudices, etc etc. There are a number of times when other cultures make it advantageous to have a female around. I can't speak for anyone else but, even in my short experience, I've seen several times where female medical, veterinary, civil affairs, linguists, or intelligence officers were attached temporarily to ODAs.

This is not to say that these kinds of scenarios offset the disadvantages of putting women on teams, but its part of the equation to consider.

I don't think the pro's could come close to outweighing the con's in an Islamic society. I was kicked out of a Shura meeting with the local leadership because I was forced to shave my beard by the Command. It took 2 months before they would meet with us again. A woman holding a team slot would be relegated to a position of insignificance. She would not be able to gain report within a Shura, gain enough respect to train male soldiers, nor even think about leading them on the battlefield. Remember, in cross-cultural communication it is about us adapting to another cultures societal norm NOT imposing our norms and beliefs upon them.

CosaNostraUSMC

01-03-2008, 18:33

Whore?? WOW. You have an interesting view on women.
My comment is not a thought or opinion indicative of all women.

Irishsquid

01-03-2008, 18:42

BTDT - my ex left me for her boss after 16 yrs of marriage - she took 50% of everything, after all her debt was paid off - judge's orders, even though she was screwing around with a lawyer - don't get divorced in NJ, men have no rights.

Let me assure you, it's no different in Mississippi. I'm still paying for my ex's car...paying rent, alimony, child support, and paying off the loan she took out so she could leave me while I was deployed. Every bit of that was judge's orders. Also, out of all our mutual posessions, I took far less than half the savings account, and i took my guns. She got EVERYTHING else.

x-factor

01-03-2008, 18:55

I don't think the pro's could come close to outweighing the con's in an Islamic society.

For sure, I'm just saying the cultural stuff is not a one-way street.

For what its worth, I think the current system works pretty well actually both in terms of function and equality. There's places for women in SF Groups via any number of MOS's, such as intel, civil affairs, PSYOPS, etc. In terms of function, they are available for temporary attachment to ODAs and, in terms of equality, they are not completely shut out of the special operations world, only limited according to reasonable standards.

Razor

01-03-2008, 21:54

For sure, I'm just saying the cultural stuff is not a one-way street.

Perhaps not, but its close to a 6 lane higway with only one unpaved opposite lane.

The Reaper

01-04-2008, 06:22

For sure, I'm just saying the cultural stuff is not a one-way street.

For what its worth, I think the current system works pretty well actually both in terms of function and equality. There's places for women in SF Groups via any number of MOS's, such as intel, civil affairs, PSYOPS, etc. In terms of function, they are available for temporary attachment to ODAs and, in terms of equality, they are not completely shut out of the special operations world, only limited according to reasonable standards.

In 20-plus years of deployments, I have never seen a situation where having females along improved the relationship with the host nation.

That is normally because the HN has no females participating in their military, and never in leadership positions. They are usually admin or support troops.

The few times we have had them deployed with us, they required barracks with private rooms and soldiers standing guard, at the HN's request. The rest of us were in open bays, if even indoors.

As previously noted, we are not there to sell them our social beliefs and the purpose of the military is ultimately to defend the country, not be a grand social experiment.

The politicians who are proposing these changes have never spent time in the military, and could not pick up a grunt's ruck themselves without mechanical assistance.

I won't be birthing any babies, and I don't expect my wife or daughter to pick up a rifle or strap on a ruck in my defense.

Maybe that makes me a Neanderthal, but that is my .02.

TR

Guy

01-04-2008, 07:08

I won't be birthing any babies, and I don't expect my wife or daughter to pick up a rifle or strap on a ruck in my defense.

Maybe that makes me a Neanderthal, but that is my .02.

TRStay safe.

HQ6

01-04-2008, 07:14

I won't be birthing any babies, and I don't expect my wife or daughter to pick up a rifle or strap on a ruck in my defense.

Maybe that makes me a Neanderthal, but that is my .02.

TR

Count me in on that one too.

What I find interesting is that it is often the same politicians hollering about not imposing our religious and social beliefs on other nations that are calling for sexual equality in the military.

RT AXE 10

01-08-2008, 10:55

That student (Wilder), did not get her qualification from SF schools nor from any SF organization... It was TRADOC that issued her an attendance certificate...

HOLLiS

01-08-2008, 11:15

Count me in on that one too.

What I find interesting is that it is often the same politicians hollering about not imposing our religious and social beliefs on other nations that are calling for sexual equality in the military.

I really don't see this as a sexual equality issue. IMHO, it is a mistake to politically put it in that category. It is a issue on qualification necessary to do the job.

First not everyone qualified is going to apply for the job. That limits the field of candidates. Of those who apply, the issue is do they fit the needed requirements to do the job. The current requirements are not based on hypothetical situations but on real known and tested criteria.

A problem with some arguments is that hypothetical situations are treated as a known proven facts, which is a fallacy.

As has been mention several times here, Overall general mission requirements do not require someone of a female gender, just because that person is a female. We could also add that a female gender could be a liability on many missions. Also if the team needs a specialize requirement that is outside the team members skill they can enlist a person with that skill level to aid in that mission only.

Just because a female does not fit in the requirements it does not mean that the requirements are sexist.

As a outsider, that is my take on this argument. I very much support equal rights. I strongly feel that SF requirements should be completely up to the SF community. It would be a grave error for some outside agencies to micro manage that community.

GaretTrooper

01-13-2008, 11:46

The only woman ever awarded the Green Beret, by SF itself, is Maggie (LtC Martha Raye). God bless her. She never did anything to damage the reputation of SF. She drank a few of us under the table but never held that against us.
I was a COMMEL instructor at SWC when Katie Wilder went through the officers’ course. Please keep in mind this is all second hand info. It was passed on from the individuals involved in the training and FTX phase of Robin Sage. We were drinking at the time but “in vino et veritas” and not too drunk to slur our words.
At that time the “O” course was a make-it-or-break-it for Officers. This was a course you had to volunteer for. It was Branch-Non-Specific. If you didn’t make it, your military career was over. That’s rumor but probably true of the times.
Cpt Wilder tricked her way into the course. Her boyfriend worked at the Pentagon assignments branch and they filed her paperwork using her initials. When she reported for her class, everyone was surprised to see a female. This caused an initial stink but something happened to calm things down and she was allowed to attend the SFQC for Officers.
I didn’t hear anything more about her until Phase III (Robin Sage) Which the NCO’s referred to as “Sobbin Rage”. During FTX Robin Sage students meet and interact with G’s. They are supposed earn their respect and convince them to do whatever the exercise is supposed to accomplish …you all know the drill. Anyway, she ordered the G’s to fetch water for her. She ordered them to carry her rucksack. She treated them like lackeys. She basically pissed off her G’s. She flunked that phase of training and was dropped from the course but was later granted a certificate because of a sexual bias.
I didn’t know about the other two officers and caching the rucks at an mss. I didn’t know about the court order for the course completion. However, something else I heard now makes sense. That was: “a stipulation that she would never be assigned to an SF unit.”
As far as I know Ms Wilder has never served a single day before or after her attendance at the Officers SFQC.

Team Sergeant

05-06-2008, 12:52

Kate wilder is at it again!

She is now filing court proceedings for making false statements about her:

See court document:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/03/21/WklyStd.pdf

http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/03/21/Soldier_Says_Weekly_Standard_Defamed_Her.htm
I'm not sure how true those statements are......:rolleyes:

kate we know you're reading this, tell us how many years, months, days, hours, minutes or seconds did you serve in Special Forces AFTER you completed the SPECIAL FORCES Q-Course?:munchin

That court document your lawyers drafted sure seems misleading......

Yeah, and I went to Harvard..... oh but I was only visiting.....:rolleyes:

And you spent how many nanoseconds on a Special Forces A-Team? None????

What do you call someone that attends a course that will NEVER actually execute what the course intends? An AUDITOR.

Why don’t you tell the truth and that you were actually AUDITING the Q-Course. You knew full well you would NEVER serve on an A-Team but you forced the Special Warfare Center to give you a diploma.

kate wilder, you are just another bottom feeder intending to profit off the hard earned reputation of real Special Forces soldiers.

You kate wilder are a disgusting bottom feeding scumbag.

Team Sergeant

Richard

05-06-2008, 13:02

Sure wish I would have gone against MG Lutz's directive and bought one of those t-shirts down on Yadkin Road that had an ART-2 reticle superimposed over CPT Wilder's face. Rats!

Richard :munchin

The Reaper

05-06-2008, 13:08

Completion of the SFQC or assignment to a Special Forces unit is not the same as service as a Special Forces soldier.

Many allied officers attend SF training, some are good people, none would I consider to be Special Forces soldiers.

There are plenty of people who serve in an SF unit, some for many years, and are not Special Forces soldiers. Cooks, mechanics, clerks, intel personnel, etc. are all found assigned to SF units.

A physician who is allowed to attend the SFQC is NOT an SF soldier, and those whose opinions matter (and who have served on a Team) know the difference.

A pig is still a pig, no matter how much lipstick is applied, or how much the pig may want to be otherwise.

TR

HQ6

05-06-2008, 13:24

I really don't see this as a sexual equality issue. IMHO, it is a mistake to politically put it in that category. It is a issue on qualification necessary to do the job.

I am not the one putting it in that light. Politicians are making it into a equality issue. I just find it funny that they recognize the rights of the Ghans to maintain their social and religious beliefs in treating women like chattel, but while claiming to advocate women's rights and equality. It is hypocritical. If you support women's rights, then your support ALL women's not just the one's that are politically advantageous.

I am a feminist. I believe in equal pay for equal work and that women should have the opportunity to strive for whatever they choose. However, as TR pointed out, men and women are not always equipped to perform the same tasks. Lowering standards to make it "equitable" does not make it equal, and as long as I have a husband and friends on teams, it is not acceptable IMO.

CSB

05-06-2008, 15:29

It is interesting that she claims only that the statements were of a nature to impeach her integrity and her fitness to perform her duties. They would therefore apparently be libel "per se" under Virginia law.

That legal theory (libel per se) presumes that she has suffered a loss of reputation and earning ability, and will apparently get her past a pretrial motion for summary judgment.

But what is interesting is that she does not claim any real loss or damage to her reputation or earning ability.

If she survives a Sullivan motion to dismiss (in view of the fact that she is a public figure, supposed to be a willing participant in the rough and tumble world of public figures and candidates for polical office), a jury might award her judgment for six cents.

rubberneck

05-06-2008, 15:45

I wonder how comfortable things are going to get for her when this suit gets to discovery. Every unsavory thing she did while in uniform will now be fair game, and I am sure there are going to be plenty of men that went through the course with her that won't have a problem setting the record straight. If you ask me she made a giant mistake. :munchin

sf11b_p

05-07-2008, 00:31

It is interesting that she claims only that the statements were of a nature to impeach her integrity and her fitness to perform her duties. They would therefore apparently be libel "per se" under Virginia law.

That legal theory (libel per se) presumes that she has suffered a loss of reputation and earning ability, and will apparently get her past a pretrial motion for summary judgment...

I would guess it has more than a little to do with her recent attempts at a political career, and political endorsements, coupled with statements she'd been the only female "Green Beret".

Remington Raidr

05-07-2008, 07:27

For some, the only bad publicity is NO publicity.

tom kelly

05-07-2008, 15:57

She never was and never will be considered a "Quiet Professional",A U S ARMY SPECIAL FORCES SOLDIER, A Green Beret, or A Special Forces Operator by any of the people who are all of the above...Past,Present or Future, now and forever...Regard's, tom kelly

Richard

05-07-2008, 19:31

Why don’t you tell the truth and that you were actually AUDITING the Q-Course. You knew full well you would NEVER serve on an A-Team but you forced the Special Warfare Center to give you a diploma.Team Sergeant

Has anyone ever done a FOIA request for her official records to see whether or not she was awarded a 5G ASI? Prior to the 18 series MOSC, the 5G would have been confirmation as to whether or not she was 'qualified' or had just attended the training. For example, my MOS was an 11B5GGMW9 during that time until it changed to an 18A during the mid-80's. If she had no 5G (the ASI for SF qualified officers), that would stop her in her tracks and help Michael Fumento with his defense.

Richard :munchin

AngelsSix

05-23-2008, 23:28

I believe the term used here was qualified if I read the thread correctly. Neither woman mention in this thread was qualified. Maggie had an honor bestowed upon her.
Katie was..............well, I will leave it at that.:rolleyes:

emoore

07-14-2008, 09:25

edited by emoore

colmurph

08-14-2008, 07:55

I ran into her and her JAG lawyer, Col. Rowe from 82d Div JAG office at the bar in Stillwell Hall the night she won her case. They were both gloating over her "Victory". She was gone the next day. I would've hit it but then at that time I probably would've hit a rattlesnake if I could find somebody to hold it's head.

AngelsSix

10-20-2008, 18:20

Interesting llittle tidbit....4 years in SF and with 5th Group?? I thought she was relagated to Ft. Whatchmacallit??:confused:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/03/21/Soldier_Says_Weekly_Standard_Defamed_Her.htm

Soldier Says Weekly Standard Defamed Her FAIRFAX, VA. (CN) - The Weekly Standard defamed a soldier in an article that claimed she was booted from U.S. Special Forces training for cheating, and falsely reported that she "never spent a day in an actual Special Forces unit," Kathleen Wilder claims in Fairfax County Court. Wilder, who says she is the first and only women to earn a green beret, demands punitive damages from the magazine and its writer, Michael Fumento.
Wilder says the allegedly defamatory article was published on March 5, 2007, under the headline, "The Democrats' Special Forces Fetish."
She claims the article falsely reported that during her final week of training in 1980 "'she and two male students were caught caching their rucksacks. That is, she and her compatriots were not carrying the rucksacks as required by the instructors, but hiding them to pick up at a later time and date. ... All three were dropped from the course, ostensibly for cheating."
Wilder says she "was not dropped from the program for cheating." She says she was "the improper target of a false accusation which was thoroughly investigated and discredited."
Wilder claims the Standard falsely reported that "the only green beret ever awarded to a woman came from a judge." She says she won her beret after an investigation by Gen. Donn Starry, Commander of the U.S. Army Training and Doctrine Command, who "concluded that the Plaintiff had been subjected to material unfairness when she was declared a nongraduate and that she deserved to graduate. The decision to overturn the decision of the Director of the Special Forces School did not come from a court or a judge, as stated and published by the Defendants, but from a superior commander as a result of a thorough investigation."
Her complaint continues: "In the article, the Defendants falsely stated that the Plaintiff 'never spent a day in an actual Special Forces unit."
Wilder says, "The Plaintiff spent four years in Special Forces and two of those years were spent with the 5th Special Forces Group."

Here is the article mentioned in the lawsuit:

http://www.fumento.com/military/specialops.html

Exerpt of article relating to case:

This is no theoretical assumption on his part. The only green beret ever awarded to a woman came from a judge. According to retired Special Forces officer Lt. Col. William E. Bailey, Cpt. Kathleen Wilder attended all three phases of Special Forces training in the summer of 1980, but during the final week "she and two male students were caught caching their rucksacks. That is, she and her compatriots were not carrying the rucksacks as required by the instructors, but hiding them to pick up at a later time and date in what is referred to as a Mission Support Site. All three were dropped from the course, ostensibly for cheating." The men accepted the outcome, Bailey has written, but Wilder got a lawyer who argued she was a victim of sex discrimination. The court agreed, ordering that she receive a course completion certificate. She never spent a day in an actual Special Forces unit, according to Bailey, but she continues to play off her reputation as "the nation's only female Green Beret."

SF_BHT

10-20-2008, 18:39

She is such a piece of work.

She never served on a SF ODA she was a Staff officer and that is how she go into the course. She has so many smoking mirrors that she gets away with all her bull. She makes me sick.

AngelsSix

10-20-2008, 18:43

SF_BHT

10-20-2008, 18:58

She made those statements in court before a judge, can we prove those are false statements? That she says she actually served in a Team bothers me. How would one get away with such nonsense??:rolleyes:

What she always said is that she served in a SF Unit. (5th SFG(A) Staff, SWCS (Student) As far as I can see she never has said she served on a Team (ODA). To a layman they do not understand the difference.

To my best recollection she departed 5th after TRADOC settled the status of giving her a certificate of completion. That Cert is not the same as a graduation certificate that I hold or any other QP here.

RT AXE 10

10-20-2008, 20:20

What she always said is that she served in a SF Unit. (5th SFG(A) Staff, SWCS (Student) As far as I can see she never has said she served on a Team (ODA). To a layman they do not understand the difference.

To my best recollection she departed 5th after TRADOC settled the status of giving her a certificate of completion. That Cert is not the same as a graduation certificate that I hold or any other QP here.

Correct: SFSchools did not award a certificate of graduation or course completion. TRADOC issued an attendance certificate as ordered. Was TRADOC SF Schools? Has she been awarded an MOS specific to SF with a skill identifier "S" or awarded an 18Series ? not visible...
She may have won her case, but not the Beret nor the TAB. The subject of standards is how she won the case. However she failed SFOC phase III training.

Axe

If the enemy is in range, so are you. (Murphys law)

Soft Target

10-21-2008, 06:51

Correct: SFSchools did not award a certificate of graduation or course completion. TRADOC issued an attendance certificate as ordered. Was TRADOC SF Schools? Has she been awarded an MOS specific to SF with a skill identifier "S" or awarded an 18Series ? not visible...
She may have won her case, but not the Beret nor the TAB. The subject of standards is how she won the case. However she failed SFOC phase III training.

Axe

If the enemy is in range, so are you. (Murphys law)

Axe: I believe you're right. I seem to remember a "Certificate of Attendance", but memory is the second thing to go and I don't remember what the first thing was.

Team Sergeant

10-21-2008, 07:49

Interesting llittle tidbit....4 years in SF and with 5th Group?? I thought she was relagated to Ft. Whatchmacallit??:confused:

kate "fat cow" wilder is stretching the "truth" to the limits.

Special Forces has females in support positions, period. kate knows that and we do to... They are support soldiers. I'm guessing that about 75% of every Group is made up of "support soldiers". Cooks, truck drivers, intelligence analyasts etc. If kate "fat cow" wilder is speaking of her time in "Group" she's betting a judge or jusy doesn't understand this.

Also her court case in the 80's in my opinion was pure blackmail, she either got her certificate or she was going to pull the sexual harassment card.

kate, you are nothing more than a lying lowlife disgusting individual.

There's never been a female on an A-Team or in any Special Forces MOS, period.

Team Sergeant

Edit to add: all of kate "fat cow" wilder's time in a Special Forces Group came before the lawsuit,court case etc. as I was told she never served in any Special Forces Group afterward. Which also means she never wore a Green Beret in any Special Forces unit.

SF_BHT

10-21-2008, 08:08

I would love to see her DD214 and see what she got the clerk to put on it....... I bet she had them (Since they would not know what was correct) put SFQC as she showed the TRADOC Certificate. Someone should help the papers lawyers with the technical information (IE: Verbage Game) so they can punch holes in her veil of half truths. Does she have orders for the ASI, Tab ? She was an Intel Officer on GP Staff nothing more. We might want to dig up the instructors that booted her, and other SF guys to help testify for the paper.

TS I agree with the case was blackmail and it just shows that she has no Honor or integrity guess that is why she is getting into politics.

The Reaper

10-21-2008, 08:31

Edit to add: all of kate "fat cow" wilder's time in a Special Forces Group came before the lawsuit,court case etc. as I was told she never served in any Special Forces Group afterward. Which also means she never wore a Green Beret in any Special Forces unit.

In the early 80s, SF support soldiers wore the beret with full flash.

And yes, BHT, she has orders for the Tab.

The point remains, she never served as an SF soldier, and has no team time. And she does choose her words very carefully, parsing, much like Bill Clinton did, about what she did and when.

TR

Team Sergeant

10-21-2008, 08:39

In the early 80s, SF support soldiers wore the beret with full flash.

TR

Yes you're right.

I meant in the "earned" sense, not as part of a required uniform.

I was not in SF when that started (SF support soldiers wearing Green Berets) but I was there when it ended.;)

TS

Team Sergeant

10-21-2008, 08:57

Also, if Michael Fumento requires assistance in his court case against kate wilder he knows where to find us.;)

RT AXE 10

10-21-2008, 09:56

Politics in play with KW. Makes me wonder...
I think we've (SF), changed so fast that vulnerabilities exist in areas where we seldom or don't frequent.

Axe
(The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire)..... Murphys Law

greenberetTFS

10-21-2008, 10:31

CSB

10-21-2008, 11:01

Ms. Wilder, if she has not yet learned, will soon learn of the expansive scope of pretrial discovery in the federal courts.

She will have to turn over, or authorize the release, of every document that is relevant to the claim she has made, or may reasonably lead to the discovery of evidence relevant to the claim she has made.

That means a full release of her 201 file (including restricted fiche), DD 214's, OER's, etc.

And that would include all school records, peer reports, evaluations, and so on from her course.

(Side question for The Reaper / Team Sergeant / anyone still at the schoolhouse: Does JFK Center still keep all of those document 20+ years after a class? I was told by an NCO at Ft. Benning that the Ranger Training Brigade keeps all of the records from every class, including peer reports, spot reports, etc.)

Since she is alleging defamation, she must prove her "good character" prior to the publication of the article, and the [purportedly false] "bad characterization"resulting from the publication of the article.

longrange1947

10-21-2008, 16:54

Richard

10-21-2008, 21:09

I hope the defense calls Ola Mize as a witness. I would pay to see that one! ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Soft Target

10-22-2008, 13:05

COL Ola Lee Mize - Pit-bull w/o lipstick.

RT AXE 10

10-22-2008, 13:43

COL Ola Lee Mize - Pit-bull w/o lipstick.

And wears a Brittish Shmock...

Axe
If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush....(Murphys law)

AngelsSix

11-13-2008, 17:43

That B!tch pisses me off........:mad: I would like to kick her ass just on principle. Sorry if you SF guys think I am stepping in your box, she gives females who do the right thing a bad name........

Ambush Master

11-13-2008, 18:53

That B!tch pisses me off........:mad: I would like to kick her ass just on principle. Sorry if you SF guys think I am stepping in your box, she gives females who do the right thing a bad name........

Lady,

You're not stepping into anything!!! We'd all be more than happy to watch!!!:D

Take care.
Martin

SF_BHT

11-13-2008, 19:29

Lady,

You're not stepping into anything!!! We'd all be more than happy to watch!!!:D

Take care.
Martin

I have the camera equipment so we could post it for posterity.:D;)

gun_bunny

02-11-2009, 14:50

I have located Katherine Wilder's distinctive headgear. It turns out she was not lying, she just forgot to spell check her claims.

:lifter

Team Sergeant

02-11-2009, 14:54

I have located Katherine Wilder's distinctive headgear. It turns out she was not lying, she just forgot to spell check her claims.

:lifter

Funny.
Get off the computer and go do more push-ups now move out and draw fire.

Team Sergeant

armymom1228

02-13-2009, 12:47

So what happened to her lawsuit? Dismissed I trust?

Gentlemen, after reading this entire thread. I feel compelled to apologize
for that woman's behavior. She gives all of us women who were 'first',
in whatever we did, a bad name. That she did what she did and in the manner in which she did it.. proves she lacks honor.

Honor, no matter what we have in this lifetime, is the one and only thing we take to the grave with us... she has none, none whatsoever..

A6 I will be delighted to film that ass whupping and post on YouTube and all chatboards...

Gentlemen, thank you, for doing what you do, and being what you are. It is always a pleasure to lurk here.
Anne
army mom

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2009, 21:09

I don't care much for that Wilder woman...

wet dog

05-03-2009, 16:55

To remake the damn T-shirts for purchase!

Can we do this by committee, perhaps start a QP proshop?

We can send one to Kate's office as a gift. I'll pay for shipping.

SF_BHT

05-03-2009, 17:15

To remake the damn T-shirts for purchase!

Can we do this by committee, perhaps start a QP proshop?

We can send one to Kate's office as a gift. I'll pay for shipping.

You just had to dig her up again..... We have gone months without her name being brought up....:p

Fiercely Loyal

05-03-2009, 19:10

I have just now read the thread in entirety. Amazing how far someone is willing to stretch the facts. Then again in her minds eye she may think in some strange way she has done nothing wrong. One of those "the law is the law" types who bent the law to her liking.

As I have limited time today before I go to sleep and then work at my deployed location, I have not yet found an outcome of your court case against Mr.Fumento. I hope that if it has passed the judge was able to sift thru your BS to find the truth. If it has not yet happened I hope Mr.Fumento takes your lying ass to the cleaners by counter suing.

So far I found other offshoots of this thread on other forums such as Armyparatrooper.org pertaining to your dishonesty. So Ms. Wilder your half truths are extending beyond those on this site only. As far as your threats to sue folks for defamation of character, bring it on. With a collective group such as the people here at PS.com, a lawsuit won't last half as long as you may think. The facts are all stacked against you. Just admit to the truth and quit trying to use SF as a stepping stone to a pseudo career in politics.

azmg

05-03-2009, 19:25

To remake the damn T-shirts for purchase!

Can we do this by committee, perhaps start a QP proshop?

We can send one to Kate's office as a gift. I'll pay for shipping.

I don't know if I would pick up a shirt (not that anyone's asking) but a QP pro-shop might be a nice addition. It seems that quite a bit of top quality stuff is being put out by QP's (CAT tool) and others that frequent the board and it might prove helpful and make life a bit easier for TS if we a had place to order things like PS.com knives, lights, multi-tools etc. that would process the front side of the order and aggregate information, verify credit cards and feed into a back-office solution of some sort.

Might even be nice to donate a portion of price to PS.com for upgrades, maint., storage etc. (I would certainly be willing). I sometimes feel guilty that one of the best resources on the web is free of charge.

This probably belongs in another thread so please relocate if need be.

alelks

05-03-2009, 19:34

Fiercely Loyal

05-07-2009, 19:21

I had on of those shirts but some scumbag stole it. I was going to frame it.

It actually had her likeness on it but it had her name spelled backwards around the outer border of the scope "Redliw" if i spelled it correctly.

I assume this was some random joe? I have been lucky so far and never ripped off of any of my equipment or clothing, knock on wood.

ANGEL053

06-14-2009, 12:38

I was assigned in the S3 ( Tng/Air opns) during the Wilder affair. She was working in the group S2 shop. Somehow she convince the powers to be that she needed to learn more about special forces opns and was allowed to attended the "Q' course. No one thought about having her attend the O & I course which should had given her a better understanding of SF opns without giving her the benefit of attaining the 5G or the beret. As far as the rumors about her cheating on the land nav and road march, like everything I dont believe that all the people talking about them were all liars. All I know once she got the beret she was GONE.

AD-23

08-03-2010, 20:55

In the attached 2008 court filing, KMW states she received a diploma from the Special Forces School, was awarded ASI 5G, is a graduate of SFOC and is Special Forces qualified.

Bill Harsey

08-03-2010, 21:07

In the attached 2008 court filing, KMW states she received a diploma from the Special Forces School, was awarded ASI 5G, is a graduate of SFOC and is Special Forces qualified.

AD-23,
Stand by for assistance.

Ambush Master

08-03-2010, 21:20

In the attached 2008 court filing, KMW states she received a diploma from the Special Forces School, was awarded ASI 5G, is a graduate of SFOC and is Special Forces qualified.

Who-ever the Hell you are, your Situational Awareness is EXTREMELY Lacking!!!

Re-read the Welcome E-mail that you received and make yourself Compliant!!!

#1 Your Profile is TOTALLY LACKING ANY INFO!!!

#2 This being your FIRST Post, you Obviously have not yet made an Introduction in the Proper Place!!!

Have a Very SF Day!!!
Martin

(Are we going for multiple Bannings in the same day?!?!)

Team Sergeant

08-04-2010, 17:12

In the attached 2008 court filing, KMW states she received a diploma from the Special Forces School, was awarded ASI 5G, is a graduate of SFOC and is Special Forces qualified.

Ambush Master don't ban it, it amuses me.....

Thirty years later she received a court order to receive a diploma!!!:rolleyes: You're making me laugh, hell she could have easily obtained one off of EBay, that's where most of the Special Forces FAKES & FRAUDS get theirs!!!

Kathleen Wilder is a bottom feeding scumbag of the worst kind.

Someday the truth will come out as to how katie wilder forced the Special Warfare Center, (rumored to be a sexual harassment threat, source, a Fayetteville newpaper article that we are not allowed to publish online, funny how that works) to give her an alleged diploma.

Auditing a course and actively participating is two different things. Wilder never did what was required to graduate hence the battle that ensued.

katie wilder is as Special Forces Qualified as my mom.

Tell me katie wilder, what Operational Detachment Alpha (ODA) did you serve on after "graduation"?

The Reaper

08-04-2010, 18:39

We need to get COL Ola Mize, MoH in here for his comments.

TR

BigAl765

11-11-2011, 21:33

I earned my Beret is 1979 and had the honor of being told to "Don Berets" by Colonel Ola Mize, December 19th 1979. He was in charge of Special Forces Schools. In 1981 Katie Wilder wormed her way into the SFQC Officer's course
in 1981. I understood at the time the Q Course tried to drop her for honor code violations. That didn't work and after a court battle she was awarded a beret.

I also uderstood Colonel Mize retired, rather than award her a beret.

Soon after that the elisted and officer SFQC were combined.

I was in C-2-7 from 12/79 to 2/85. Anyone else out there?

I'd like to here from my old Team Sgt Baldy Ramirez or my SGM Bill Spurgeon.

Those were great times.

Al

Dozer523

11-12-2011, 07:38

I earned my Beret is 1979 and had the honor of being told to "Don Berets" by Colonel Ola Mize, December 19th 1979. He was in charge of Special Forces Schools. In 1981 Katie Wilder wormed her way into the SFQC Officer's course in 1981. I understood at the time the Q Course tried to drop her for honor code violations. That didn't work and after a court battle she was awarded a beret. I also uderstood Colonel Mize retired, rather than award her a beret. Soon after that the elisted and officer SFQC were combined. I was in C-2-7 from 12/79 to 2/85. Anyone else out there? I'd like to here from my old Team Sgt Baldy Ramirez or my SGM Bill Spurgeon. Those were great times. Al BHT said it best You just had to dig her up again..... We have gone months without her name being brought up....:p Your very First Post! congratulations.
You rock. This is what you bring up to earn your FTFSI. Now re-read the dang e-mail you got.

greenberetTFS

11-12-2011, 15:38

Excellent advice Dozer,now hopefully he'll understand your message......... ;) :D

Big Teddy :munchin

MR2

11-24-2011, 14:29

I remember a 2LT Wilder wearing a maroon beret running around Bragg in '76-77? time-frame. Heard she was in the Group S-2 section.

In Sep79 I was a ROTC Cadet attending class 51-79 of Air Assault. I was the squad leader. Our squad had had several cadets and one CPT Kate Wilder. A whiny, self-centered, conniving, manipulative POS I have never before or since seen in my military career. We had to push her to do the minimum every hour of the day.

The course was not easy - but it is certainly not that hard.

I do not recall if she graduated, but looking at my copy of the orders, only 17 of us did. And she is not on them!

Later on, I read with dismay that she had "earned" a Green beret. Reading this thread has put things into perspective. Just wondering how her "libel" suits turned out?