View Full Version : Military Aims to Fix Helicopter Brownout
GreenMtnTac
10-26-2006, 15:35
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Oct26/0,4670,HelicopterBrownout,00.html
I've not heard much about this. Is it a significant problem?
The Reaper
10-26-2006, 18:24
Hey, I'm missing something here.
Why not use the artificial horizon and radar altimeter to stay level and bring it down slowly?
TR
GreenMtnTac
10-26-2006, 21:30
That's what I was wondering.
The Reaper
10-26-2006, 21:42
I am sure that our resident rotorhead will be along shortly to explain.
Captain!!!:munchin
TR
CPTAUSRET
10-26-2006, 21:55
Hey, I'm missing something here.
Why not use the artificial horizon and radar altimeter to stay level and bring it down slowly?
TR
"I am sure that our resident rotorhead will be along shortly to explain".
Captain!!!
Here, Sir!
What's a "radar altimeter"?:)
During the dry season in VN we often had the same problem. Just set up on final approach, and reach for the ground! No cutting and running, once you have committed you take it to the ground, not always the prettiest landing though!
The crew is trying to help spot the ground for the pilot, but you can't hover in a brownout!!
By the time you're close enough to have a brownout you'd be pretty close to the ground anyway wouldn't you, sir? Hence you'd only be in for a few seconds, by my reackoning.
I'd hate to imagine what the paperwork is like for breaking a helo these days though!
CPTAUSRET
10-26-2006, 22:30
By the time you're close enough to have a brownout you'd be pretty close to the ground anyway wouldn't you, sir? Hence you'd only be in for a few seconds, by my reackoning.
I'd hate to imagine what the paperwork is like for breaking a helo these days though!
Bigger the ship greater the mass, the more rotor wash you stir up...That's why I picked a spot, and just rode it in. I can imagine you could easily have a problem w/in 30 feet of the ground, and that leaves plenty of space to get into trouble!
True enough!
Was there much danger of ingesting dirt and other shit into the turbine when you were flying in RVN?
CPTAUSRET
10-26-2006, 22:54
True enough!
Was there much danger of ingesting dirt and other shit into the turbine when you were flying in RVN?
Sure was, we lost a few turbines until someone figured out a 90 degree air box intake, which kept most of the debris out of the engines.
Thanks for the answers, sir.
CPTAUSRET
10-27-2006, 06:28
Thanks for the answers, sir.
De nada, Huey!
That's what TS pays me for!;) LOL
The Old Guy
11-15-2006, 07:54
Brown out can be a huge problem in deep fine powder if the aircraft is not set up properly to land on short final. You have to be established long before that time comes into play. I have had PIs freak out in the cockpit, both day and under NVGs, and start pulling power, where I still had the ground in sight or was comfortable with the aircraft profile in relationship to the earths surface and confined space I was landing. It is hard for a young inexperienced PI to set the aircraft profile up and hurl yourself to the earth at 500 - 700 FPM and at 70 knots. Experience and confidence in yourself and the airframe you fly has a large amount to do with it also. Use of the artificial horizon and radar altimeter s too little too late with current technology found in the majority of DOD aircraft.
This is way it is critical for the ground forces to understand aviation limitations and establish HLZs within those limits. I really thought that I understood aviation prior to flight school but was educated quickly that I was quit naïve in limitations. That third dimension is a killer.
TOG
Cobra642
11-17-2006, 21:02
One problem, even with an artificial horizon and a radar altimeter, is "drift"; that imperceptible horizontal movement of the aircraft across the ground. I forget now what the feet per second (fps) motion vector is (I actually used to know this stuff), but it is is very small to move the center of gravity outside the lateral control limits of most helicopters. Imagine a marble on the end of a string, and trying to stop the movement. If you drag a wheel (or a skid on the older stuff) moving sideways in a brownout, control of the aircraft can literally be lost before you know what happens.
As much as I used to train this in day, night and NVG conditions, and in snow and sand, it still was a "heart-stopper" when conditions were really bad. A fine-tuned GPS and a coupled autopilot would be beneficial for improved landing sites, but most tactical insertions don't offer that luxury, and it's the last 6-12" that matter the most for snagging a stump or a rise in the terrain.
SSG Garcia
12-24-2006, 11:43
Brown outs are more of a problem when landing in a controlled enviroment than in a combat. In a combat the option is there to use that forward momentum to counter act that drift left or right. Also when talking about Brown outs you have to take into to account the Apache and Kiowa who dont have crew chiefs and generally land onto forward arming and refueling points imbetween pad chiefs, ammo and other aircraft requiring them to slow down and land directly onto there pad. During OIF 1 i was attached to a battalion that had 4 aircraft go down 3 due to brown out, in each case the pilots tried to use there instrumentation but couldnt counteract there sideways movement causing them to tip over when that right or left weel dug in. More than anything the experience level of the pilot has more to do with the success of the landing.
60_Driver
01-18-2007, 14:01
Yes, brownout can be a very serious problem and causes many accidents. I know I've pulled a bit of seat mesh out of my fourth point of contact on a few occasions after being Chalk Seven to a bowl of moon dust...
As for the system described, even though more technocrap in the helicopter is exactly what we need, I don't think the system as described will be of much use. Exposed precision lenses in the middle of a brownout won't last long. Flight engineers have other shit to do besides focus on a screen during the landing sequence. A large flash of IR light, now that Gs have NODs, doesn't strike me as a good idea.
Like just about everything else, brownout isn't something that can't be overcome with proper training and planning on the part of the aircrews, but then the contractors won't get that $150,000 per lunch ticket...
geronimo
01-28-2007, 10:18
Brownout is one of the hardest things for helicopters to deal with in the Middle East.
Imagine doing an infil to a hostile target. The shooters need to land right next to a building or tent or whatever. Now everyone knows that built up areas have wires, uneven ground (curbs and ditches if you are near a street) and various obstacles. Now imagine losing all outside reference as you are simultaneously trying to slow down and land precisely.
I have personally seen a -60 brown out at 300 ft above ground level and roll over upon landing. The incident in question killed two soldiers and hurt a few others.
Landing in dirty places is dangerous... The risk can be overcome by training and practice.
Technology will help you get to the target but getting it on the ground is still up to the pilot for now.
Now that you've heard how bad a brown out is, try this: 13,000' above sea level, four feet of powder snow and it's snowing. ENJOY!
See Ya.
Yes Brownouts are a serious problem.
Just imagine flying around for 2 hours and all of a sudden you feel that DEFAC food in the pit of your stomach. Right when your about to tell your team that it is time for a FARP run, you get a troops in contact call. Now your flying to the TIC at 140 knots and you can feel every single vibration in your bowels.
The sweat is pouring now and your ass smells so bad even you can't stand it. You know you can't brown out, cause if you do, you will be the subject of unrelenting jokes and ridicule and you will always be known as.....THAT GUY.
Sorry, I had too. True story though