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Cincinnatus
10-18-2006, 19:11
WOW! If I undestand the implications of this correctly, it could be a HUGE breakthrough;

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061018/ap_on_sc/anti_bacterial_grammar;_ylt=AtyclAw0sbm9WXzgBBtWKJ vMWM0F;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MzV0MTdmBHNlYwM3NTM-

AngelsSix
10-18-2006, 20:36
I have a question concerning this. Do we only build immunity to viruses or to bacteria as well?? I was wondering that by making more and more anti-bacterial products, etc., if we will end up developing a super bacteria that will beat everything we have thus far. I also wonder if we will lower our immunity to things to the point where our systems will start triggering allergies to normal everyday things.

mugwump
10-18-2006, 21:53
WOW! If I undestand the implications of this correctly, it could be a HUGE breakthrough;

http://news.yahoo.co
m/s/ap/20061018/ap_on_sc/anti_bacterial_grammar;_ylt=AtyclAw0sbm9WXzgBBtWKJ vMWM0F;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MzV0MTdmBHNlYwM3NTM-

Yes, these are pretty cool, although they are not new. With methicillin-resistant Staph aureus (MRSA aka "flesh eating bacteria) and "super" TB such emerging problems these little peptides are being fast-tracked for development.

The naturally occurring ones are really ancient molecules. Geneticists speculate that they were the original weapons that single-celled organisms used against each other billions of years ago, and all living things - including humans - still retain them in their genes to this day. Some of these molecules are used as immune messengers in our bodies -- part of the cytokine system. (Weirdly enough, massive amounts of these normally-good molecules might be part of the "cytokine storm" that the H5N1 flu seems to bring about.)

That's what's slowing down their development. Dicking around with the cytokine system can have catastrophic consequences, and rats/dogs/monkeys use different molecules than us so animal testing doesn't give the usual clues regarding safety. You don't want to be the first human they pump this stuff into. Maybe you heard about the six guys in the UK who puffed up like frogs and had multiple organ failure after being injected with millionths of a gram of a cytokine regulator. One has leukemia now.

Another cool new/old treatment is bacteriophage therapy. Bacteriophages are viruses that attack and kill only bacteria. They look like little mortar rounds with whiskers coming off the tail. The Soviets were decades ahead of the rest of the world in the 40's but antibiotics kinda ended the party for them. They had developed different strains of these viruses that they'd inject into people to fight specific infections.

You may have heard that they are spraying lunch meat with viruses now. Those are bacteriophages that kill common bacterial contaminants on meat.

mugwump
10-18-2006, 22:03
I have a question concerning this. Do we only build immunity to viruses or to bacteria as well?? I was wondering that by making more and more anti-bacterial products, etc., if we will end up developing a super bacteria that will beat everything we have thus far. I also wonder if we will lower our immunity to things to the point where our systems will start triggering allergies to normal everyday things.

We build immunity to both viruses and bacteria. But some viruses mutate so quickly that you need a new vaccine every year. If you caught the flu last year, your immune system won't recognize this year's new and improved version. Other viruses, like chicken pox, don't change -- if you caught it as a child you get lifetime immunity. And some bacteria are really "smart" and build slimy cocoons to "hide" from our immune system.

And yes, more and more antibacterials mean super bugs. That antibacterial pump soap you use gets washed down the drain and into the water supply. Bacteria develop resistance to it. These bugs don't get any nastier than those our g-grandparents faced, we just have no way to fight them. People used to die from staph infections all the time -- those days are back again.

The quiz is on Thursday. :)

mugwump
10-18-2006, 22:11
To continue the water/resistance theme: All that Tamiflu they are making to fight bird flu (tons and tons of it). When you take it, you pee 80% of it out unchanged. There's going to be massive amounts in the water (although extremely dilute) if this flu thing happens and all that tamiflu gets eaten. There's a paper in Nature that speculates the wild virus in birds will quickly develop resistance to it (the resistance is developing already, a consequence of the Tamiflu "blanket" they are using in Indonesia to try to stop it).

Weirdly enough, birth-control hormones, hypertension meds, etc. get peed out unchanged and are building up in the water supply as well. Pretty much every chemical made ends up in the water. And they wonder why eight year-old girls are going through puberty.

x SF med
10-19-2006, 07:59
We build immunity to both viruses and bacteria. But some viruses mutate so quickly that you need a new vaccine every year. If you caught the flu last year, your immune system won't recognize this year's new and improved version. Other viruses, like chicken pox, don't change -- if you caught it as a child you get lifetime immunity. And some bacteria are really "smart" and build slimy cocoons to "hide" from our immune system.

And yes, more and more antibacterials mean super bugs. That antibacterial pump soap you use gets washed down the drain and into the water supply. Bacteria develop resistance to it. These bugs don't get any nastier than those our g-grandparents faced, we just have no way to fight them. People used to die from staph infections all the time -- those days are back again.

The quiz is on Thursday. :)

Mug-
You forgot to mention all of the 'half regimen' antibiotic therapies.... People stopping a therapeutic antibiotic regimen as soon as they feel better and saving the remainder of the Rx for 'next time'. the stupidest thing one could ever do - there is stuff out there that has become resistant to the really big gun C-sporins and "maxi-cillins" for just this reason. Let kids eat dirt, wipe their noses and cough - don't ask for an antibiotic every time you go to the Doc, even if it's viral (90% the docs fault, he/she should never cave).
Everything being sterile and over antibioticized is going to kill the industrialized countries - no immune system leaves you wide open to bioterror and just plain endemic infections.

***ok, rant over - time to go thee doctor and get some ampicillin for my allergies..... NOT :D ***

mugwump
10-19-2006, 10:59
Mug-
You forgot to mention all of the 'half regimen' antibiotic therapies.... People stopping a therapeutic antibiotic regimen as soon as they feel better and saving the remainder of the Rx for 'next time'. the stupidest thing one could ever do - there is stuff out there that has become resistant to the really big gun C-sporins and "maxi-cillins" for just this reason. Let kids eat dirt, wipe their noses and cough - don't ask for an antibiotic every time you go to the Doc, even if it's viral (90% the docs fault, he/she should never cave).
Everything being sterile and over antibioticized is going to kill the industrialized countries - no immune system leaves you wide open to bioterror and just plain endemic infections.

***ok, rant over - time to go thee doctor and get some ampicillin for my allergies..... NOT :D ***

You are absolutely right. Get a dog when your kids are little and let it lick their ice cream cones! Best thing for 'em.

It's hard to stare down a mommy when her kid is crying from an ear infection, even when the angels are on your side. It's a business, and those med-school loans don't get paid by themselves.

Also, antibiotics in fish, poultry and livestock production are a huge problem. The gut superbugs (C. difficile, salmonella, etc.) are a direct consequence of penicillin, cephalosporin, and quinolone use in agriculture. That was the straw that broke my back when I worked in the pharma industry -- their decision to market "my" quinolone to the poultry industry. Totally irresponsible. (A better job offer didn't hurt my decision, either -- I'm not that noble. :) ) They "share" their resistance with other bugs too.

jasonglh
10-19-2006, 13:34
Gee thanks. First I was only worried about the massive amount of chicken poop being washed into my local rivers by the enormous Tyson chicken houses. Now I have to worry about the massive amounts of antibiotics and other drugs being washed away in the chicken piss.

We dont need a rogue comet to wipe out civilization we are doing a fine job on our own. :rolleyes:

Hand
05-22-2012, 13:20
After digging through search results, this seemed the most closely applicable thread to post this in.

Georgia has recently suffered 3 cases of people getting some sort of flesh eating bacteria. One case has been pretty widely publicised Aimee Copeland (http://www.wsbtv.com/s/news/aimee-copeland/). From the news stories she had an accident while zip lining which resulted in stitches, afterwards she contracted some flesh eating virus and was very close to death.

The second, Robert Vaughn apparently got sick after weed eating and seems to have had the bacteria before he got to the hospital; LINK. (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/third-case-flesh-eating-disease-diagnosed-ga/nPBPG/)

Coincidentally, I live in Georgia and noticed the week before Aimee Copeland's case that after a hard rain, there were a number of patches of a purple looking mold on grass in my yard. I found the mold in the yards of several of my friends in surrounding counties. I was curious if there could be any correlation?

Unfortunately I really didn't pay much attention to the mold other than noting it was purple and that it only grew along blades of grass (not on plants or trees). The mold has since gone and not returned.

PedOncoDoc
05-22-2012, 13:52
After digging through search results, this seemed the most closely applicable thread to post this in.

Georgia has recently suffered 3 cases of people getting some sort of flesh eating bacteria. One case has been pretty widely publicised Aimee Copeland (http://www.wsbtv.com/s/news/aimee-copeland/). From the news stories she had an accident while zip lining which resulted in stitches, afterwards she contracted some flesh eating virus and was very close to death.

The second, Robert Vaughn apparently got sick after weed eating and seems to have had the bacteria before he got to the hospital; LINK. (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/third-case-flesh-eating-disease-diagnosed-ga/nPBPG/)

Coincidentally, I live in Georgia and noticed the week before Aimee Copeland's case that after a hard rain, there were a number of patches of a purple looking mold on grass in my yard. I found the mold in the yards of several of my friends in surrounding counties. I was curious if there could be any correlation?

Unfortunately I really didn't pay much attention to the mold other than noting it was purple and that it only grew along blades of grass (not on plants or trees). The mold has since gone and not returned.

The articles have a significant lack of scientific data or thoughtful comment from the physicians - typically a sign of a journalist seeking a sensationalist story.

When necrotizing fasciitis (rapidly progressing soft tissue infection) is called "flesh-eating bacteria infection" it typically is associated with an infection due to the bacteria Streptococcus pyogenes which frequently lives on the skin and/or in the respiratory tract of healthy individuals. This bacteria can cause an infection if the proper opportunity arises such as a cut or break in the skin which can be seeded by bacteria. Treatment typically involves intravenous antibiotics and wide surgical debridement which I'm sure can be discussed in greater detail by surgeons and surgical PA's on the forum.

These cases have nothing to do with mold in the yard, and the words bacteria, mold and virus cannot be used interchangably as they are entirely different organisms.

some basic general access references:
NIH overview of necrotizing fasciitis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002415/)
Overview of Streptococcus pyogenes (http://pyogenesgonewild.com/)
Slightly more science-oriented Streptococcus pyogenes site: link (http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Streptococcus_pyogenes)

HTH.

Hand
05-22-2012, 14:55
The articles have a significant lack of scientific data or thoughtful comment from the physicians - typically a sign of a journalist seeking a sensationalist story.

When necrotizing fasciitis (rapidly progressing soft tissue infection) is called "flesh-eating bacteria infection" it typically is associated with an infection due to the bacteria Streptococcus pyogenes which frequently lives on the skin and/or in the respiratory tract of healthy individuals. This bacteria can cause an infection if the proper opportunity arises such as a cut or break in the skin which can be seeded by bacteria. Treatment typically involves intravenous antibiotics and wide surgical debridement which I'm sure can be discussed in greater detail by surgeons and surgical PA's on the forum.

These cases have nothing to do with mold in the yard, and the words bacteria, mold and virus cannot be used interchangably as they are entirely different organisms.

some basic general access references:
NIH overview of necrotizing fasciitis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002415/)
Overview of Streptococcus pyogenes (http://pyogenesgonewild.com/)
Slightly more science-oriented Streptococcus pyogenes site: link (http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Streptococcus_pyogenes)

HTH.

Thank you, sir.
Although I didn't recognize about 78% of the words in those sources, I read them!

BryanK
05-23-2012, 09:50
Here's a clip on how to build your immune system to combat such things Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X29lF43mUlo). It starts around the 33 second mark :D (*Disclaimer*- Contains offensive language)

shr7
05-23-2012, 20:12
The articles have a significant lack of scientific data or thoughtful comment from the physicians - typically a sign of a journalist seeking a sensationalist story.


Absolutely, 100% agree. I've been following the news stories and it is disheartening to see such a lack of basic research and scientific knowledge. What blows my mind is that they seem to have interviewed physicians for the story. The reporters seem to just not get it. All of them. From CNN to ABC to FOX news. It is painful to read.

I don't understand what makes her case so special. Pretty, young, white girl? Rarer bacteria? Now we have news stories about other people in Atlanta being hospitalized with necrotizing fasciitis. Different bacteria, obviously unrelated, if any reporter cared to do the slightest amount of research.

From FOX news
"Bobby Vaughn, the third person reported in recent weeks to be battling a flesh-eating bacteria known as necrotizing fasciitis in Georgia"

There is so much wrong with that, I don't know where to begin...

Hand
05-24-2012, 07:23
From FOX news
"Bobby Vaughn, the third person reported in recent weeks to be battling a flesh-eating bacteria known as necrotizing fasciitis in Georgia"

There is so much wrong with that, I don't know where to begin...

It seems to have struck again. link (http://milledgeville.13wmaz.com/news/news/70992-son-flesh-eating-bacteria-struck-milledgeville-man)

I am medically incompetent (notice my ignorant misuse of bacteria/virus earlier in the thread) so I cant even begin to speculate as to what this stuff really is; is it a normal occurrence and only being reported for lack of less sensational material, are these people picking up some sort of staph (<- medically ignorant disclaimer) infection and its being misreported?

PedOncoDoc
05-24-2012, 08:57
It seems to have struck again. link (http://milledgeville.13wmaz.com/news/news/70992-son-flesh-eating-bacteria-struck-milledgeville-man)

I am medically incompetent (notice my ignorant misuse of bacteria/virus earlier in the thread) so I cant even begin to speculate as to what this stuff really is; is it a normal occurrence and only being reported for lack of less sensational material, are these people picking up some sort of staph (<- medically ignorant disclaimer) infection and its being misreported?

All the medical information is being reported by the man's son - not a reliable medical resource if you ask me.

Sounds like they guy got a cut on his leg, didn't clean/bandage it and is now having problems. He was admitted three days after the initial wound and transferred a week later to a larger medical facility. Necrotizing fasciitis, when it occurs, is a surgical emergency - 2+ weeks of medical therapy and reports that the man is stable but the infection can't be cleared without surgery doesn't fit with the reported diagnosis according to the son.

Side note/rant: Nectotizing fasciitis is a disease process caused by bacteria - not a bacteria itself. Also - staph and strep are different bacteria - strep is more associated with necrotizing fasciitis and staph is more associated with skin abscesses, although these associations are not absolute.

There's no way to tell what is really going on based upon the excellence of the reporting. :rolleyes: