View Full Version : Nicer Drill Sergeants?
bandycpa
10-11-2006, 06:56
Do you all think this is a good thing? - Bandy
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15210867/?GT1=8618
Army: Nicer drill sergeants more effective
Recruits said to be better in boot camp now that they're not being yelled at
The Associated Press
Updated: 4:10 p.m. ET Oct 10, 2006
WASHINGTON - Hollywood may have to tone down its portrayal of the military’s screaming, in-your-face boot camp drill sergeant.
In today’s Army, shouting is out and a calmer approach to molding young minds is in, says the head of Pentagon personnel.
The Army says it has reduced by nearly 7 percent the number of recruits who wash out in the first six to 12 months of military life.
“Part of it is changing the nature of how it treats people in basic training,” David S. Chu, undersecretary for personnel and readiness, said Tuesday.
That means “less shouting at everyone, in essence, which some of you may remember from an earlier generation as being the modus operandi,” he said.
The changes started about a year ago, as defense officials looked for ways to make drillmasters more effective, said Lt. Col. Mike Jones, head of Army National Guard recruiting.
He said the old way was to “talk loud, talk often, get their attention” — shock treatment to teach discipline and mold the newly recruited civilian into a soldier.
But trainers found today’s generation responded better to instructors who took “a more counseling” type role, Jones said, using strong tactics when needed but keeping them the exception instead of the rule.
No longer training in fear
The approach has had two positive results, he said: It has lowered attrition among those who go through training each year and has eased one of the greatest fears of recruits — their fear over whether they can make it through basic training.
Other changes aimed at improving graduation rates include such things as letting recruits with injuries or minor medical problems remain in the service, heal, and then go back to training. Before, an injury would have meant discharge, training officials said.
Numbers differ from service to service and depend on what the recruit is being trained for. Those training to be Navy SEALS or other special forces may wash out at the rate of 70 percent. Those training to be truck drivers may have an 80 percent graduation rate.
But Chu said that across all services, generally, some two-thirds of recruits finish their enlistment period — typically three or four years.
Some drop out within six months
Of the third who don’t make it, half bomb out in the first six to 12 months, Chu said, adding that the attrition rate is better than most private sector firms.
Keeping a balance in the number flushed out of the service is important. Too many dropouts and you lose people you really want to keep. Too few dropouts, and you are keeping people you should have let go, Chu said.
Both the military and police academies are moving away from harder-edged approaches to training, he said.
“However much it may be satisfying from the shouter’s perspective, it really isn’t the best way to shape young people for the future,” Chu said.
He made the comments as he announced that all active duty services had met their recruiting goals for the budget year ended Sept. 30. The Marine Corps Reserve met its goal and the Air Force Reserve exceeded its goal, but they were exceptions among guard and reserve forces, some of which have seen “heavy use” due to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Chu said.
The Reaper
10-11-2006, 08:19
If you can't handle being yelled at, how will you handle people trying to kill you?
Bad idea, unless you have an incrementally more stressful program that eventually reaches serious pressure.
I see nothing wrong with the Marine reception model.
IMHO, as long as the training does not physically injure you, there is no issue.
TR
Sgt_Metz
10-11-2006, 08:23
Having a DS yell and shout and nit pick everything you do should be what inspires you to improve your performance. My mindest was always, what can i do better to shut this fool up? It taught me attention to detail, to never settle for the minimum, and you always have to maintain your SA. Admitedly it did have the reverse affect on a small number of other recruits, but to be honest, they weren't the ones you'd want in you foxhole anyway. I've always rather run a team/section with fewer soldiers who were motivated then a fully manned one with slackers. just my 2¢
Monsoon65
10-11-2006, 13:49
Having gone through the easiest Basic Training program, most of the guys in my flight said they wished it were tougher and the instructors harder on us. I tend to agree. TR is right; as long as it doesn't physically harm you, you're good to go.
Didn't Nietsche say, "What doesn't kill me makes me strong?"
I didn't have those nice drill sergeants. In my training company, it sucked for me from Week 1 to Week 14. Although, they were already implementing low stress companies in Benning in 2005. I asked some of those recruits once if they ever got smoked or yelled at and they said no.
x SF med
10-11-2006, 14:08
I read the article last night, and wondered if I should post it here - I wasn't sure if I should laugh or cry on reading it either. This kinder gentler shit is going to kill more people than a well trained enemy.
And somehow, after IN Basic/AIT (OSUT) at Ft. Beginning, with a Jr. Drill that decided he hated me the second he saw me (I was already Jump qualified, and he wanted to go Airborne, but was stuck in DI status) was actually a great precursor for all of the other training I received in the Army - the enemy will not ask you if your psyche is going to be damaged when he attacks you, the weather will not always cooperate, stress is a given. This is crap, pure and unadulterated, just to get recruiting numbers up - I'd rather serve wit h10 guys who want to do it , can handle the stress and are motivated than 100 guys who are whiny little shitheads trying to badgefind and kiss ass.
I think everyone is spot-on from what I've read thus far. At Ft. Sill, we had a good balance of mind games (i.e. smoking for no reason) and the real deal (where someone or everyone is jacked up).
The difficulty started out very high, but as time went on, people started to screw up less, which meant less time being berated by the DS's and more time training and learning from them. By the end, when we got smoked, we all knew it was just to keep us fit, so we did it with smiles on our faces (no joke). Also, by that time, the Blue Falcons were mostly gone, which made our training more motivating.
Looking back on it, I wish it was harder.
racing_snake
10-11-2006, 14:43
I remember Fort Sill well. I think basic training is like anything else in the army--if you're assertive, and stand up for yourself as a man you'll have very little problems. However, if they're going to go to this kinder-gentler method of instruction--maybe they should have tryouts for the more elite units from the beginning. Run a selection process for the Tier 1 Special operations and SF units, and then have the dropouts go to the kinder gentler army, and the more motivated, goal oriented recruits to the special operations community for gruesome vetting. Also, if this is going to be the case, and supposedly more emphasis will be placed on mastery of the training--they should have MEPS psychologically screen candidates before they arrive to help weed out the weaker candidates. You'd also have a better idea if someone would catastrophically screw up a position they were assigned to, MOS, or otherwise. Just my .02.
Snake
Team Sergeant
10-11-2006, 16:34
Do you all think this is a good thing? - Bandy
Army: Nicer drill sergeants more effective
Recruits said to be better in boot camp now that they're not being yelled at
The Associated Press
I think its a great idea, right up there with less than lethal force equipment for soldiers and Marines.
Heck, we in the military should be looking into hostage negotiation units, rubber bullets and pepper spray for future deployments and knocking on doors and announcing ourselves and our intentions "before" busting them down.
The new motto should have been "A kinder gentler Army than your mom served in....."
Team Sergeant
aricbcool
10-11-2006, 16:42
Didn't Nietsche say, "What doesn't kill me makes me strong?"
I thought it was: "That which does not kill me, postpones the inevitable." :D
http://www.despair.com/adversity.html
--Aric
The Reaper
10-11-2006, 16:57
This is the logical result of the older recruiting age standards, waived entry weight limits, lowered entry intelligence requirements, increased physical waivers, loosened criminal disqualifiers, etc.
We have fewer well-qualified soldiers and more fodder/sheeple, who need the coddling to keep from disturbing them to the point where they need their meds/mommies again.
Look for higher body counts and increased stupidity from soldiers, especially in the combat zones.
Old, stupid, fat, broke down, criminal junior enlisted troops who can't handle stress (like being verbally chastised) against the enemy. Just what we need during a counter-insurgency campaign....:rolleyes:
At least it should help drive the remaining squared away soldiers out of conventional units and into SF.
TR
In the mid nineties we had some privates from the 82nd working as Pit Puppies during some Sniper Training. One of them showed me a Stress Card from Basic just to show me they really existed. I begged him to give it to me but he wouldn't budge. Also when visiting Camp Lejune one of the Marines showed me the Safety Circle. A circle painted on the ground where a recruit could run to and not get yelled at. They were told to enter the circle or pull out the stress card when they felt too much pressure/stress. Do these abominations of training still exist?
Team Sergeant
10-11-2006, 17:40
One of them showed me a Stress Card from Basic just to show me they really existed. I begged him to give it to me but he wouldn't budge.
Begged? A private! He would not budge!
You did not threaten him with his life?
Didn't tell him by 0500 the next morning everyone with the same last name would be killed? Threaten to rip out his throat and shit down his lungs if he did not turn over the card???
You do realize you've left us no choice and we now have to ban you forever.;)
Team Sergeant
Wondering where we went wrong......
Begged? A private! He would not budge!
I was trying to be a nicer SF Soldier........:)
I wanted it because no one would believe me when I told them about the Stress card. He wanted to keep it for the same reason. Besides they were our Score Keepers also and we don't want to piss them off...LOL
NousDefionsDoc
10-11-2006, 18:52
kg couldn't do anything to him, the private was in his safety pit - no yelling, no threats....
Footmobile
10-11-2006, 20:32
Also when visiting Camp Lejune one of the Marines showed me the Safety Circle. A circle painted on the ground where a recruit could run to and not get yelled at. They were told to enter the circle or pull out the stress card when they felt too much pressure/stress. Do these abominations of training still exist?
There is no recruit training conducted at Camp Lejeune. I'd bet he was fucking with you. Sounds funny though. Imagine some lost soul recruit getting verbally wasted by a DI and just hauling ass to a circle on the ground expecting the incoming to stop! :confused:
“However much it may be satisfying from the shouter’s perspective, it really isn’t the best way to shape young people for the future,” Chu said.
Tell that to my father, who did a fine job with the shouting method.
I do not know where this "Chu" individual received his undergrad, but it bothers me.
bost1751
10-11-2006, 21:39
You have got to be kidding! I was one of those drafted into DS duty in the mid 70s. They hit 10th SFG and the other GPs pretty hard for a couple of years. We were allowed free rein, within reason. Screaming, yelling all kinds of good stuff. At the end of every cycle I had trainees tell me they expected it to be hard,etc. In 1976 GEN Depue, FORSCOM had the trainees Bill of Rights made up and posted on every floor of trainee barracks. I taped a dime to those posted in my platoon. When I finally finished my time as a DS the dime w were still there.
These so called low stress, medium stress and high stress situations are found in LEO training academies. The lower the stress the higher the graduation rate. It makes someone lokk good on paper to the higher ups. I does not do shit for the perfromance of the indiviual in a realistic situation. I think it is a major mistake for the Army to implement this type of change. It is just another example of how we continue to cater to generation X.
mffjm8509
10-12-2006, 05:05
and knocking on doors and announcing ourselves and our intentions "before" busting them down.
Team Sergeant
You're way behind on this one TS.
"Cordon and knock" was a term being used extensively by CF Commanders during my last OIF rotation.
mp
x SF med
10-12-2006, 06:30
This must be ploy by the body bag manufacturers so they can play the futures markets and make even more money.
Absolute stupidity - stress cards, safety circles? The only circle we had at basic was the resolution circle - if you had a problem with anybody (including drills, if you were that stupid) the challenge was issued, the platoon circled up, the gloves went on (or pugils) and it was resolved, the man standing won.
I believe my 2 DSs had a pretty fair good cop/bad cop routine - SFC "Cool Bob" Cleland (good cop), and SSG Jesse "the Pit Bull" Fair (bad cop) were tough as hell, but evenhanded in meteing out punuishments (one screwed up, we all screwed up) and looking the other way when intra-platoon punishments were handed down (GI Showers, blanket parties, etc.). It wasn't so much us against them, but they were who we had to overcome , as a team. The harshness serves a dual purpose - culling the weak, and creating a situation where you learn to work as a single unit. Sad that it's gone. I guess we have to change the name of Ft Begining to the Benning School for Girls.
I did Basic training about two and a half years ago at Fort Jackson of all places. We did not have any stress cards, white flags, or circles of trust. At that point there seemed to be a brief push to return to the "every Soldier is a rifleman first" mentality. Yes, it was much easier than it should have been, and even people that refused to complete the confidence course (scared of heights) were graduated.
Soldiers that have arrived more recently have said that they did have stress cards. Along with them, came a significant jump in Soldiers that were often undisciplined, sometimes insubordinate. They will eat the majority of the senior NCO's and Commander's time, and often be chaptered out of the Army for misconduct within months of arriving.
This is a side note, but strikes the same chord with me. Today at our annual Soldier readiness update of shots and paperwork, they asked if I had any kind of religious or political objection to carrying a weapon. :confused: Is this new also or has this been around for a while? What the heck do they do with a Soldier that doesn't want to be armed?
S
Monsoon65
10-12-2006, 13:58
I thought it was: "That which does not kill me, postpones the inevitable." :D
http://www.despair.com/adversity.html
--Aric
Thanks! I bookmarked that site.
I thought I had that quote messed up!
There is no recruit training conducted at Camp Lejune.
I was wrong, I said Lejune but we were at Paris Island attending a friend of a friends graduation when he showed me the Circles. I am not insane (Silence NDD!) they were there. I wish they weren't but they were there. This was 1997. It was 1996 when I was shown the Stress card. Are they still using them? The cards had several numbered or lettered phrases on them like confused, overwhelmed...etc. The trainee called out the number or letter pertaining to how he felt and the Drill had to deal with whatever number or letter he called out.
The Reaper
10-12-2006, 20:02
The trainee called out the number or letter pertaining to how he felt and the Drill had to deal with whatever number or letter he called out.
Sounds like it should have been the cube root of the number of 8-counts, squat thrusts, flutter kicks, or other forms of physical training the student required to get Army (or Marine) Strong, to me.
TR
and looking the other way when intra-platoon punishments were handed down (GI Showers, blanket parties, etc.). It wasn't so much us against them, but they were who we had to overcome , as a team. The harshness serves a dual purpose - culling the weak, and creating a situation where you learn to work as a single unit.
Hah, we almost gave a GI shower to one Soldier who didn't conduct personal hygiene. We had the scrubbers all ready and some other cleaning essentials. One of his battle buddies stood up for him and the GI shower plan was over.
x SF med
10-13-2006, 06:42
Hah, we almost gave a GI shower to one Soldier who didn't conduct personal hygiene. We had the scrubbers all ready and some other cleaning essentials. One of his battle buddies stood up for him and the GI shower plan was over.
Wiseman-
We had to give the same guy 3 GI showers in Basic - scrub brushes, lye soap, scalding water, and I do believe there were a few incidences of "manual and pedal high velocity contact". Our entire platoon got gigged everytime the DIs caught a whiff of his goat smelling ass. He ended up getting tossed for psych reasons - he was afraid to take a shower when other people were around....
Oh, yeah - I was the Platoon Guide for all 3 of the showers, and got a total of 20 hours extra duty - because the DIs smelled him, not for the showers.
We had a PVT A. who didn't do his laundry, ever, and when our PG finally had enough, he tasked two guys to go into his wall locker to get all his shit out, and the next day the same two guys had boils or rashes all over where they touched the dirty clothes...needless to say PVT A. wasn't very popular with us.
Kyobanim
10-13-2006, 09:18
I think the Drills need to say 'please' and 'thank you' more often. I would feel better. . .
Wiseman-
We had to give the same guy 3 GI showers in Basic - scrub brushes, lye soap, scalding water, and I do believe there were a few incidences of "manual and pedal high velocity contact". Our entire platoon got gigged everytime the DIs caught a whiff of his goat smelling ass. He ended up getting tossed for psych reasons - he was afraid to take a shower when other people were around....
Oh, yeah - I was the Platoon Guide for all 3 of the showers, and got a total of 20 hours extra duty - because the DIs smelled him, not for the showers.
When a good friend of mine was in the Reserve Officer School here, they had a guy in their quarters that was nicknamed "Black Beard"
An overweight guy who did not change his sheets during the duration of the school and otherwise wasnt so up to speed on personal hygiene. I recall a mention of white sheets turning brown at some point...
frostfire
10-15-2006, 01:51
Absolute stupidity - stress cards, safety circles?
in the near future, they might be replaced with "Light-emitting shirt which expresses mood, ambiance and give messages to the people around us."
http://www.research.philips.com/newscenter/archive/2006/060901-lumalive.html (I originally wanted to put this in comedy zone, mods please remove if inappropriate)
Now I'm convinced my former mama's-boy-softie roommate will not get the much needed "beaviour modification" in his bootcamp this fall. He must be delighted for sure :rolleyes:
At least it should help drive the remaining squared away soldiers out of conventional units and into SF.
I like your perspective, Reaper Sir
You're way behind on this one TS.
"Cordon and knock" was a term being used extensively by CF Commanders during my last OIF rotation.
mpDid we take "surprise" out of webster?
Stay safe.
incommin
10-16-2006, 13:27
There are two sides of this issue. I spent 4 years "on the trail" at Fort Lost in the Woods, MO. There were two kings of sergeants wearing "brown rounds". The first group I called "drill sergeants". They yelled and screamed at everyone over anything. The second group of people were "drill instructors". This group displayed more patience and took the time to teach. They still yelled when it was called for. But displayed more control. Power seems to corrupt some people and they tend to take things too far. Maybe this is the cause of the kinder routine.
My .02.
Jim
Rob_0811
10-29-2006, 15:32
rubber bullets and pepper spray for future deployments and knocking on doors and announcing ourselves and our intentions "before" busting them down.
My unit had training on these very things last month as part of our pre-deployment training here at Ft. Dix.
I was floored. They are actually trying to get an infantry unit to "think in less than lethal terms". Warning shots were also discussed.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
It appears to be the "wave of the future" gentlemen.:rolleyes:
There are two sides of this issue. I spent 4 years "on the trail" at Fort Lost in the Woods, MO. There were two kings of sergeants wearing "brown rounds". The first group I called "drill sergeants". They yelled and screamed at everyone over anything. The second group of people were "drill instructors". This group displayed more patience and took the time to teach. They still yelled when it was called for. But displayed more control. Power seems to corrupt some people and they tend to take things too far. Maybe this is the cause of the kinder routine.
Had the same thing in SWC. The ones who had to yell and intimidate just to assert their authority/ego (Called SWC As&@#) Then their were the ones who asserted authority when necessary but put more emphasis on teaching and mentoring (SWC Instructors) This was at an advanced School not the Q-Course. Amazing some of the crappy assignments the former landed upon completing their SWC tour.
Having just graduated Basic on 20 Oct, I can say that the job of a Drill Sergeant nowadays is to babysit. That's all I felt like they could do. There seemed to be very little actual training from the DS because they were too busy making sure we got seven hours of sleep, three meals a day, and that we didn't run in our boots. Ridiculous.
About the yelling. At Leonard Wood, it seemed that some companies yelled more than others. I don't know how effective it really is anyway. The worst is when we got punished as a platoon or company without being told why.
I dunno, I just felt basic was ridiculous. People there were so out of shape, and had a lot of trouble just taking care of themselves. I feel like there was a lot of time wasted. I spent 2 hours sitting at the range waiting for my time to fire, firing for a minute, and then sitting and waiting until everyone else finished.
Technically you shoudln't just sit there and wait after firing. You should at least clean it. I know we got scuffed when we didn't do that.
x SF med
10-30-2006, 07:34
Hold it one friggin minute - Drills "made sure you got 7 hrs of sleep?" :eek: Lights Out - may have been for 7 hrs - but I'll be damned if I wasn't in the latrine squaring away gear, polishing boots and brass and getting required reading done for 2-3 of those hours on a regular basis.
incommin
10-30-2006, 08:45
"Having just graduated Basic on 20 Oct, I can say that the job of a Drill Sergeant nowadays is to babysit. That's all I felt like they could do. There seemed to be very little actual training from the DS because they were too busy making sure we got seven hours of sleep, three meals a day, and that we didn't run in our boots. Ridiculous."
Lets see...... while the drill sergeants were babysitting I would guess there was some physical training, dismounted drills; classes on the military and personal hygiene, and reinforcement training for all those other classes they made sure you got to on time. Babysitting my a$$!
Jim
GreenMtnTac
10-30-2006, 13:59
From the article...
The Army says it has reduced by nearly 7 percent the number of recruits who wash out in the first six to 12 months of military life.
If that's their goal, they could get that up to 100 percent easily enough: do away with DS's altogether, turn basic over to Carnival Cruise Lines.
Come to think of it, NSW could move BUD/S from San Diego to Cancun. That would likely reduce the SEAL dropout rate too. ;)
CATAtonic426
10-30-2006, 14:16
Lets see...... while the drill sergeants were babysitting I would guess there was some physical training, dismounted drills; classes on the military and personal hygiene, and reinforcement training for all those other classes they made sure you got to on time. Babysitting my a$$!
I agree. My drill sarn'ts trained us & did it well. I got screamed at, so did every one of my battle buddies. We got smoked constantly, whether we did something to deserve it or not. They would make stuff up. We ran in boots. Too many people fell asleep in class & it was out to the running track for a couple laps. Our nickname was 'little dick'. We went back to red phase 3 times because of things out of our control. It sucked, and we loved every darn second of it. We learned about motivation, not because they taught us, but because when they're screaming in your ear and you're dripping sweat, still in the FLR, the pain goes away when everyone sounds off in unison with the soldier's creed. I learned a lot, and I know my battles did too.
racing_snake
10-30-2006, 21:15
Drill sergeants' sense of discipline never bothered me at all. However, when I got to a unit, and people question your integrity, because of those who have passed before you--it is infuriating. Especially when said accuser has the character of a snake in the grass. Not running around punching people in the stomach like Martin Donovan in Trust requires quite a lot of discipline; which is what i think Drill Sergeants instill with their theatrics: restraint. Not falling back on teen rage in a combat zone, not shooting without positive identification, following the rules of engagement--it all requires restraint. Still, it would be nice to punch a mildly retarded fifteen year E-5 in the head. Sighs.
incommin
10-31-2006, 05:52
"Still, it would be nice to punch a mildly retarded fifteen year E-5 in the head. Sighs."
How does an E-5 stay in the Army with 15 years of service??????? Unless things have really changed, QMP should have ended his career at 12 years!
Jim
beedlesw
10-31-2006, 12:37
How does an E-5 stay in the Army with 15 years of service??????? Unless things have really changed, QMP should have ended his career at 12 years!
Jim
He might just be exaggerating a little, but 15 years is the RCP for E-5, so it might be said sgts last year?
racing_snake
10-31-2006, 13:31
It will be his last year if not promoted. This is what concerns me about the conventional Army now, when it comes time for one's reenlistment window-- people are making decisions out of desperation, rather than preparation. You have four years to prepare to seperate from the Army, or progress in the Army in between enlistments a lot of times, and yet people continue to make decisions haphazardly about their careers, and their future; as if they're in a pinball machine. Reenlisting in the Army is serious business, it is not something to be made on a whim, it can cost you--your life, your limb, your wife, and your children. If someone doesnt have the instestinal fortitude to make Staff Sergeant in fifteen years, and they are not strong of back; I personally do not want them defending my nation. Especially when their role is generally is to create disparity within the platoon--rather than concentrating on building a team. However, my new pet peeve is those on permanent profile with a herniated disc who reenlist for six years for 10,000 dollars, and then subsequently get medically boarded six months later. This sort of action should be punishable under the UCMJ, because to me, it shows intent.
*Jumps off soapbox*
Snake
Leozinho
10-31-2006, 14:19
Having just graduated Basic on 20 Oct, I can say that the job of a Drill Sergeant nowadays is to babysit. That's all I felt like they could do. There seemed to be very little actual training from the DS because they were too busy making sure we got seven hours of sleep, three meals a day, and that we didn't run in our boots. Ridiculous.
You just finished. Not enough time has passed for you to realize how much you learned or didn't learn. While I'm at it - running in boots is stupid and there's a reason why you didn't do it at Basic (Though I doubt the Drill Sergeants had to spend a lot of their time preventing this.)
I dunno, I just felt basic was ridiculous. People there were so out of shape, and had a lot of trouble just taking care of themselves. I feel like there was a lot of time wasted. I spent 2 hours sitting at the range waiting for my time to fire, firing for a minute, and then sitting and waiting until everyone else finished.
Don't worry, that will be the last time you ever waste time in the military. (Sometimes I make myself laugh.:D )
Being serious now - I went through Basic at Fort Jackson (co-ed). I was a bit suprised that Basic was no longer a Full Metal Jacket experience. However, there were no stress cards and the Drill Sergeants still did plenty of yelling. Sure, I wish the DSs were harder on us as a whole, and on a handful of bad apples in particular. But that's because I detested mass punishment and felt more smokings on the front end would have removed some of the recruits' attitudes sooner.
One thing that was immediately noticeable was that DSs weren't supposed to curse and they could only drop individuals for 10 counts. (They got around that easily enough with "Drop. 10 pushups. On your feet. Drop. 10 pushups. On your feet. Drop. Etc.)
x SF med
10-31-2006, 15:20
Leozinho-
A question for you - In the field, when the excrement hits the oscillating cooling device, will you have time to change to sneakers? I don't advocate running in boots at all times, but you better be comfortable doing it because it's a lot different than running in sneakers, especially with your field gear. You have to train to the conditions you will encounter, and running in boots over foocked terrain at night with BGs chasing you is one of them.
Yes, for 75% of your training time, running in sneakers is much easier on your knees, back hips, feet and mind - but the 25% you spend running in boots in the woods will save your life.
mconrad-
"Hurry up and wait" is the official motto of the Army - deal with it. If you're worried about wasting time, bring the Ranger Handbook, a TM, FM or SM with you to read and study - then the time is not wasted, is it?
Leozinho
10-31-2006, 16:00
When it hits the fan, I just have to remember to put one foot in front of the other, very quickly. The mechanics are the same, regardless of the footwear I happen to be wearing.
To be clear, we aren't talking about Drill Sergeants dropping arty sims and then saying, "3 o'clock. 600 meters. You have boots on, so mind that you don't break into a run, please." Because that's not happening. Recruits today are running just like everyone else did before them.
My training puts enough stress on the body (I've got the screws and x-rays to prove it) that to put added strain, by running in boots when I don't have to, would be foolish.
I think Mconrad is wishing his basic training class went out in group runs wearing all leather boots, just as he saw them do in Band of Brothers. Probably thinks he got over because he was allowed to drink water after the run, as well.
incommin
10-31-2006, 18:52
Running in boots is stupid????? Lets see, the Romans and Greeks ran in sandals and or bare feet. My father ran for 25 years in brown boots. I ran for 24 years in jump boots or jungle boots. Stupid was moving to running shoes. You don't patrol, jump, or fight in running shoes.......that move was just one more softening of the military.
Jim
Radar Rider
10-31-2006, 18:58
How does an E-5 stay in the Army with 15 years of service??????? Unless things have really changed, QMP should have ended his career at 12 years!Jim
Things have changed. RCP for a SSG has been 20 years for awhile, now. Consequently, a SGT (P) can actually stay for 20 years. It could be possible for a SGT to be quite content to be an E-5, never work on promotion points, and retire at 20 years.
racing_snake
10-31-2006, 19:31
Originally posted by Radar Rider:
Things have changed. RCP for a SSG has been 20 years for awhile, now. Consequently, a SGT (P) can actually stay for 20 years. It could be possible for a SGT to be quite content to be an E-5, never work on promotion points, and retire at 20 years.
We also have an NCO like that. He was Force Recon with C company from 1977-1980, and then he was on a Seal team for seven years, and also spent several years on a Puerto Rican Swat team. Once we were having an in ranks inspection, and our new platoon sergeant asked him, "What makes you more professional than I?' "My experience with force recon...' Then the Platoon Sergeant cut him off, and told him he was not supposed to answer that question. I think just recently the command forcibly sent him to BNOC. So basically there are a lot of 15 year E-5's that fall into all different colors of the spectrum. Needless to say I dont imagine punching this particular NCO.
x SF med
10-31-2006, 19:58
When it hits the fan, I just have to remember to put one foot in front of the other, very quickly. The mechanics are the same, regardless of the footwear I happen to be wearing.
To be clear, we aren't talking about Drill Sergeants dropping arty sims and then saying, "3 o'clock. 600 meters. You have boots on, so mind that you don't break into a run, please." Because that's not happening. Recruits today are running just like everyone else did before them.
My training puts enough stress on the body (I've got the screws and x-rays to prove it) that to put added strain, by running in boots when I don't have to, would be foolish.
I think Mconrad is wishing his basic training class went out in group runs wearing all leather boots, just as he saw them do in Band of Brothers. Probably thinks he got over because he was allowed to drink water after the run, as well.
How long have you been in the Army? Screws and x-rays, you are overtraining. And No it's not foolish to run in boots when you don't have to - the general mechanics may be the same, but the fine mechanics are differrent - look at the difference in design of sneakers and boots - they are built on different laths, the sole design flexes differently, the ankle rotation and flexation are different, the constriction on the achilles tendon is different, and most importantly, how the weight is distributed through/ across/around the foot is different. Training in your boots allows you to have the muscle memory to not get hurt when it hits the fan. Yes, I've seen peole that never ran in boots get hurt doing it, because they didn't know how. If you want to argue this point, remember, I have more miles in my boots than some people have on their cars. I've gotten the (old Army) 500 mile patch running in boots, more than once, and the same thing in sneakers. I've had torn ligaments, stress fractures, etc. When it hit the fan, I was glad I trained in boots - with good sorbithane inserts. Tell you what - ruck in sneakers, that's counterproductive.
bost1751
10-31-2006, 21:45
x-sf-med, you know he's been in the Army at least two weeks. How long do you need to be in to know everything? He sure sounds like a prime example of the me generation. Hell, after 23 years, most in the 10th, I don't have any screws, plates etc. I have a bunch of scars from being put back together though. Yep, boots never hurt anyone. I am sure with your background you can continue the conversation much more elequently than I. My response is much simpler-quit whining, we ran inboots for years with minimal problems. I bet he likes the nicer Drill Sergeant crap too.
racing_snake
10-31-2006, 22:24
The next thing you know Dr. Phil will be a Drill Sergeant.
Leozinho
10-31-2006, 22:48
Some say I overtrain, other's say I've been coddled and am soft. One says injuries are par for the course, another says it's a sign you're doing something wrong. A fellow just can't buy a break around here. ;)
I'm glad you guys suffered no problems from running in boots. But that's not to say that others fared as well.
I do give a lot of thought to injury prevention. I throw my running shoes out after 400 miles, avoid concrete in favor of dirt, stretch after I warm up, etc. It makes a difference, especially as your mileage increases.
Now... Water--- essential training aid, or just a crutch? :D
x SF med
11-01-2006, 07:56
Some say I overtrain, other's say I've been coddled and am soft. One says injuries are par for the course, another says it's a sign you're doing something wrong. A fellow just can't buy a break around here. ;)
I'm glad you guys suffered no problems from running in boots. But that's not to say that others fared as well.
I do give a lot of thought to injury prevention. I throw my running shoes out after 400 miles, avoid concrete in favor of dirt, stretch after I warm up, etc. It makes a difference, especially as your mileage increases.
Now... Water--- essential training aid, or just a crutch? :D
1. Overtraining is overcompensating - I will not speculate on the coddling you received, as I am ignorant of that fact (and yes, young soldier, ignorance implies choice, check out your Latin).
2. Minor injuries are par for the course, pins and x-rays are not signs that youare harder than others, just that you are making mistakes.
3. As to training in boots - train as you will fight - period. There are great inserts that will ameliorate the effects of training in combat footgear - try them, they work.
4. You are titled "SF Candidate"; Bost, TR, TS, Incommin, and myself are a bit beyond that. STFU and listen to what we are telling you, we never said we loved running in boots, we said that it is a necessary evil so that you are ready for your mission with the equipment you will have with you.
5. Pull this argumentative crap with one of your instructors in the Q - and you will spend a not inconsequential amount of time in the Gig Pit (or would have, since the swim test is dropped, maybe the Gig Pit is gone too).
6. Young stud - minimum runs when I was in were 5 miles, but Fridays were 15 (Hey Bost, out to the DZ, around the lake, around the Golf course, and back to the team area - or a run out to Range 15 and back). and Tue and Thu afternoons were some nice tactical hikes through the woods from about 1300 to oh say 1700, 1730 with your house strapped to you, after your normal run in the AM.
As a final note, Yosemite Sam said it best - "Quit yer whinin, varmint!" - I suggest you take that advice, lace up your boots with the nice infantry blue sorbithane inserts, and go for a run over the worst part of the Matta Mile. As used to be posted over the Gig Pit - "Pain Purifies, Wanna Quit?" but if you do it right, all you're gonna do is sweat.
Bost -
Thank you for your vote of confidence in my command of the English language. Does this post meet your expectations, brother?
Kyobanim
11-01-2006, 08:59
In Basic in 73 we did all PT in boots and starched fatiques. Guess things have changed. Oh well.
racing_snake
11-01-2006, 09:31
I think the worst thing the Army did was the transition from punishment to negative reinforcement using mass psychology. So now the self-obsessed sociopath transgressor is punished--by--and this is interesting having everyone in the unit come in on a Saturday, and giving a class on DUI's. Is this a punishment for a sociopath? Someone with the inability to feel empathy or compassion for others? I'd have to plainly say no. Now if I tell you not to go out a door, and you attempt to go out a door, and then I punch you in the stomach--is that punishment? Yes. Is that effective? Yes. I'm not suggesting violence should be actively applied in the army--but, targeted, thoughtful punishment. I'm suggesting you cannot build a team with Jeffrey Dahmer. As far as the vetting in Basic Training goes I think Tradoc should do away with the maximum attrition rate of 15%, and stop sending cannon fodder to units for the leader's to fix.
As far as running in boots is concerned--it is what I expected of the Army from many accounts of my Uncle who joined during the Korean War. I just recently got over the embarassment of my Uncle laughing at the cheerleader-esque tone of modern PT. I ran in boots for several years before I came into the Army, but what do I know--I'm twenty five, and have a herniated disc, and custom orthotics.
Snake
incommin
11-01-2006, 10:16
But what the hell do I know......I'm 61, spent 24 years in the Army, retired as a CSM, currently work as a forensic investigator for a sheriff's department, and can still do a five mile run several times a week.....sometimes in boots!
Jim
"Having just graduated Basic on 20 Oct, I can say that the job of a Drill Sergeant nowadays is to babysit. That's all I felt like they could do. There seemed to be very little actual training from the DS because they were too busy making sure we got seven hours of sleep, three meals a day, and that we didn't run in our boots. Ridiculous."
Lets see...... while the drill sergeants were babysitting I would guess there was some physical training, dismounted drills; classes on the military and personal hygiene, and reinforcement training for all those other classes they made sure you got to on time. Babysitting my a$$!
Jim
I have the utmost respect for a drill sergeant. I just think they have their hands tied on a lot of things. This coming from personal conversation with a drill sergeant, past and present. I'm just saying that we really had to value the time we had with definite training. I'm not saying that basic was worthless--by no means was it worthless. I just came out of it feeling less confident than I thought I would. I am realizing as I go that some of the new stuff they do at basic is really helpful.
Poisoned One
02-28-2009, 16:56
I am currently serving as a Drill Sergeant at Ft. Lost in the Woods, Misery. Myself and my battle buddies are trying to stay closer to the way it was than what the "Politically Correct" want. I believe my job is to create as much stress as I can to assimilate combat without actually shooting at them. I know it is a far stretch between the two but ultimately that is our job. We are hindered everytime a NCO (Drill Sergeant or otherwise) abuse a trainee or sleeps with a trainee. Everytime it happens we are in the neewspaper as a stereotype and then the "Do-gooders" step in to stop the abuse. The majority of the Drill Sergeants I serve with don't abuse trainees and are constantly trying to create competent Soldiers. If you are a good NCO you will be a good Drill Sergeant, unfortunately some NCOs "fall through the cracks" too. Probably the shitbag trainees that fell through the cracks in basic first.
I look at my job as if the trainees I train will be my Soldiers when I deploy. If I don't trust them in training I know I can't trust the in combat. You have the be able to shoot, move and communicate, however, you need to be disiplined and self reliant also. Fortunately in my unit we do have support from the Battalion and Brigade.
Poisoned One you are fixin' to get a little stress yourself unless you toddle off to the intro thread and post your introduction like you were told to in your intro packet.
Pete
Holy Necro Post
AngelsSix
02-28-2009, 17:56
http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.asp
In the mid nineties we had some privates from the 82nd working as Pit Puppies during some Sniper Training. One of them showed me a Stress Card from Basic just to show me they really existed. I begged him to give it to me but he wouldn't budge. Also when visiting Camp Lejune one of the Marines showed me the Safety Circle. A circle painted on the ground where a recruit could run to and not get yelled at. They were told to enter the circle or pull out the stress card when they felt too much pressure/stress. Do these abominations of training still exist?
I don't think so. I was in boot camp in the 90's, we got bunks thrown across the bay. No Frickin' stress cards. I know a few Marines that went through when I did, it was typical scuttlebutt. The part in Snopes where it says there were cards issued in the 90's is a joke that a group tried pulling on the DI's, didn't work out so well........:rolleyes:
Oh, boy, I could just see someone handing our Drill Sergeant in BCT, SFC Soloman, a vet of the 187th's combat jump in Korea and with two tours in the 173rd in RVN, a stress card. :eek:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I am currently serving as a Drill Sergeant at Ft. Lost in the Woods, Misery. Myself and my battle buddies are trying to stay closer to the way it was than what the "Politically Correct" want. I believe my job is to create as much stress as I can to assimilate combat without actually shooting at them. I know it is a far stretch between the two but ultimately that is our job. We are hindered everytime a NCO (Drill Sergeant or otherwise) abuse a trainee or sleeps with a trainee. Everytime it happens we are in the neewspaper as a stereotype and then the "Do-gooders" step in to stop the abuse. The majority of the Drill Sergeants I serve with don't abuse trainees and are constantly trying to create competent Soldiers. If you are a good NCO you will be a good Drill Sergeant, unfortunately some NCOs "fall through the cracks" too. Probably the shitbag trainees that fell through the cracks in basic first.
I look at my job as if the trainees I train will be my Soldiers when I deploy. If I don't trust them in training I know I can't trust the in combat. You have the be able to shoot, move and communicate, however, you need to be disiplined and self reliant also. Fortunately in my unit we do have support from the Battalion and Brigade.
1 EN BDE-35 EN BN ?!?!?!
Goooooood memories... :rolleyes:
SR
Dozer523
03-01-2009, 16:26
Poisoned One you are fixin' to get a little stress yourself unless you toddle off to the intro thread and post your introduction like you were told to in your intro packet.
Pete
Holly Necro Post
Backoff Pete!!:eek: I think he's a Borg.
Quoting (Poison One) "I believe my job is to create as much stress as I can to assimilate combat without actually shooting at them."
Peregrino
03-01-2009, 16:37
http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.asp
The part in Snopes where it says there were cards issued in the 90's is a joke that a group tried pulling on the DI's, didn't work out so well........:rolleyes:
Hate to disabuse you, but Snopes has been debunked elsewhere. I've got one of the stress cards that was issued at Ft Jackson. One of my brothers was a Drill there and gave it to me to prove his point about the quality of leadership and the caliber of trainee that the Drills dealt with daily. Personally I think they should have issued mood rings, easier to check at the same time you're doing all the other hand-holding. :p
perdurabo
03-01-2009, 16:55
My drill sergeants were some of the finest (and loudest) people I've known. I'll forever remember and be grateful to them.
This kind of stuff is further evidence of the pussification of society (pardon my french, ladies)...
When did challenge and hardship become a bad thing?