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Matta mile
09-03-2006, 08:05
Gents,
Any experience with exercise or herbal remedies that may help offset lower back pain brought on by mild arthritis (and being 49 yrs old and 6'3' 245)?

Talk about voodoo. Its seems most Docs really don't have a staright forward or "one size fits all" solution for lower back pain outside of several different drugs for when the pain flares up. I know losing will have to help to some degree but exercise often hurts. Running seems to inflame the situation while walking seems to be OK. Stretching seems like it helps but hurts while doing it. Im not sure if this hurting along the way is good pain or bad. Any personal opinions on the subject would be appreciated. Sucks getting old!:boohoo
Thanks

Eagle5US
09-03-2006, 08:36
There isn't a one size fits all with CLBP...spine stabilization excercises / stretching / and weight loss are key. Meds help, but not are not a long term fix. The stronger your abdominal muscles and better our posture are (and less overhang you have in front), the less exaggeration you will have in the curve of your lower back.
If you have other symptoms, numbness, tingling below your knee, shooting pains into your foot or that wrap around your calf...you may need an MRI to rule out a nerve compression syndrome from an HNP or "slipped disk".

There are ROOMS full of texts on CLBP...all have similarities, but no two are the same.

Eagle

Matta mile
09-03-2006, 09:28
Eagle5US,
Thanks for your response. The terms you provided give me some good search phrases.

lksteve
09-03-2006, 09:56
Any experience with exercise or herbal remedies that may help offset lower back pain brought on by mild arthritis (and being 49 yrs old and 6'3' 245)?plenty of experience...Eagle hit it on the head, weight loss and stretching...chiropractic treament works for some, acupuncture works for others...i don't know of an herbal remedy, but i spend a good deal of time stretching and working on my abdominal strength...

i would advise against flutter kicks, however...:D

Matta mile
09-03-2006, 10:21
Thanks lkSteve,
I'll work through the stretching exercises. Herbal wise, my wife is advocating I try something out there called Devils claw, supposedly reduces inflamation....if it does I'll let you know.
Thats good news on flutter kicks!
Chet

Goggles Pizano
09-03-2006, 10:40
Eagle is spot on MM. I have followed the back/ab stretching and excercise routine for years and it's relieved a great deal of pain. After wearing 25 lbs of gunbelt around my waist for seventeen years I have experienced plenty of back pain. Christ I've thrown my back out just getting out of bed once! Good luck with it. For what it is worth I have never been to a chiropractor simply because it's always hit or miss with anyone who has gone (50/50 responses do not make me enthusiastic).

Matta mile
09-03-2006, 11:12
Thanks GP!

Sdiver
09-03-2006, 12:24
Also look at your shoes/feet.

Over time, your feet change. You my develop a higher arch or you begin to pronate/supinate (sp)when you walk, whereas you didn't before.

Something a simple as one of those Dr. Scholl's inserts will help, or if the pain in your back is so bad, you may need to see a Podiatrist and get proper shoe inserts. I know they've helped my back quit a bit.

Jack Moroney (RIP)
09-03-2006, 13:11
Gents,
Any experience with exercise or herbal remedies that may help offset lower back pain brought on by mild arthritis (and being 49 yrs old and 6'3' 245)?



I have been dealing with arthritis brought about by trauma and a leg that was shortened due to a broken hip I did not know I had broken at the time so it healed a little wacky. I went through the bulk of my career dealing with some of the challenges you are now facing. What I did was concentrate on building my abs and upper body strength to the point where I could do most everything with my arms without having to rely on using my back as leverage. Situation awareness also plays a big role and I was always cognizant of what I was about to do and compensated for it by changing body position or approach to prevent that mind numbing pain when you screw up. There were, however, events beyond my control that left me bed bound for days and even medevaced once to Walter Reed for about a month, but I was able to demonstrate what needed to be demonstrated to avoid any profiles or assignment limitations. Of course, I am now paying the price in spades, but even now I would not have done anything different. As mentioned in earlier posts, everyone is a little different. I weighed in for the bulk of my career at 215, but I am wound a little tighter than you as I am a jump boot heel short of 5'8". Good luck!

Matta mile
09-03-2006, 13:14
Sdiver,
Thanks!
I hadn't considered shoes at all, great points.
Looks like there are a few athletic shoe companies ie Brooks that address the pronating possibilities.

Kyobanim
09-03-2006, 17:12
Here's something that most people don't pay too much attention to. Good Posture, as in lack of. As we get older, (been there doin that), we tend to 'hunch' over. It's not a conscience thing and usually it's very slight, but it happens none the less. My ortho caught me doing it and corrected me. I was seeing him for back pain.

Other than that, if the doc says there is no physical reason for the pain, stick with the exercise and stretching. Just remember to warm up prior to stretching. There's a stretching guide here (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9663) if you're interested.

Matta mile
09-04-2006, 06:47
Gents:

Thanks for all the great feedback! Your experiences, thoughts and opinions are appreciated and will help me pursue and measure several :rolleyes: COA's some of which I would not have thought to even consider.
Chet

7624U
09-04-2006, 10:26
Is your back hurting when you wake up in the morning or just when you walk around and do your daily routine. if its hurting when you wake up you might want to get a full lenth body pillow to sleep with it will keep you in better position during the night. and how old is your mattress springs do wear out.

x SF med
09-04-2006, 22:07
to help eease the pain, once it's kicked in, and before exercising - Tiger Balm in the red can - makes Ben -Gay smell 'light', but the stuff kicks butt for easing tight muscles. sorbithane inserts or heel cups for your shoes/boots, stretching, situps, back extensions, and back 'lengthening' exercises (flat on your back on the floor, stretch, then bring your knees up to a 45 degeree angle, feet still on the floor, repeat for about 10 reps), Yoga, or Tai Chi have been known to help. Have you tried therapeutic massage?

All of the above except tiger balm were covered by others, just reiterating.

Matta mile
09-05-2006, 19:46
Hi guys,
thanks again for all the good advice. We have new type bed. Ill add the tiger balm to the list. A footwear guy suggested anti pronate sneakers..they are called "the beast' by Brokks. Other companies ie New Balance have similar versions. If I could just lay off the chow!
Take Care
Chet

ilots
09-09-2006, 22:30
First, I am NOT a doctor, or physical therapist or SME on the topic. I did suffer lower back pain, a result of a series of causes. The pain was occasionaly severe, which was terrible as I am pretty active.
I tried very hard to educate myself as I would not accept limited mobility as an option.

One of the home treatments that worked very well was found at NISMAT.org. It is free - look for their "lower back program exercises." I now do a much more advanced program (much more physical, incorporating everything from yoga moves to kettle bells) as I have had a primary cause (IT Band and sever hip tightness) corrected.

I hope this may provide some help, and relief. Originally I took this to my MD (and later therapist) and he approved, suggesting I build upon it. I no longer have the pain, although I occasionally have tightness or discomfort - it does not seem to progress to level of pain.

ABN307
09-15-2006, 05:15
Matta,
A supplement I have found useful is "Omega 3 fatty acid" supplement. Although, I take a supplement that has Omega 3, 6 and 9 fatty acids. I take 2 in the morning, and 2 in the afternoon. I personally use: Triple Omega 3-6-9 from Vitamin World. There has been alot of research and of course controversy surrounding the use of anything natural as a pain reliever but, I am a beleiver as it works for me without the side effects of NSAIDS. Do a google search for: "what are the benefits of omega fatty acids and back pain". Hope this helps you out.

Matta mile
09-15-2006, 07:01
Thanks for the input guys.

Will give it a go.

Books
09-16-2006, 14:09
Matta Mile,

I'll spare you the details, but I can't recommend the Green Superfeet insoles enough. Those, some solid running shoes (I've had both Brooks and NB) and a bit of yoga have helped me out immensely.

Good luck,
Books.

dr. mabuse
09-16-2006, 18:47
Matta Mile.

This is no attempt to prescribe, cure, treat or diagnose.

I'm 6"-4", 240 pounds and tried just about everything out there and was headed toward surgery. The inversion table works perfectly for me. Also, the surgeon and the Senator I work with both had bad backs (one had unsuccessful surgery) and are too heavy for their height.

The inversion table worked the same for them. They both used the term "lifesaver" relating to results obtained.

We did seek professional advice before proceeding. :lifter

Matta mile
09-17-2006, 16:31
Thanks again for all the eager assistance and sharing of experiences. Alot of excellent considertions and COA's.
MM:)

A Simple Genius
02-17-2007, 18:32
I am a licensed massage therapist as well as a competitive long-distance runner. Understanding the strain you have put your back through over the years, there are a few key elements cited in previous posts which may come in to effect. Just as others have stated, this is not a diagnosis or prescription since I can't examine you personally. These are merely some suggestions to consider:
1. Poor posture- strengthening the abdominal muscles will help counter-act a forward rotation of your pelvic girdle as well as some upper-body strains.
2. Stretching- Strangely enough, tight hamstrings can cause a lot of back problems. You should comfortably be able to touch your toes with your fingers while maintaining straight legs and straight back. If not, a stretching routine may help.
3. Psoas Major- This is a very deep muscle which attaches to the front of your lumbar vertebrae and high on the inside of your femur. It is a major hip flexor and is often ignored or unknown. Runners will typically have very tight psoas. Additionally, if you sit for long periods of time it can cause the muscle to shorten. Then when you stand it can put great strain on the lumbar vertebrae.

PM me if you have any specific questions.

--

"It is not enough for us to be good. We must be good for something." Gordon B. Hinckley

Jack Moroney (RIP)
02-17-2007, 19:45
You should comfortably be able to touch your toes with your fingers while maintaining straight legs and straight back.

Not in this life time. The only way that could ever happen for me would be to have someone coil 14 wraps of detcord around my waist, detonate it, and lay the two halves together.:D

A Simple Genius
02-24-2007, 13:50
...

CDRODA396
02-24-2007, 17:37
What a site, pretty much everything my Doc told me following L5-S1 surgery and degenerative disc disease in so many L's and C's I cant keep up, has been covered...

Stretching
Weight Control
Strong Core (read abs)
Quality Bed / sleep position
Posture

The one thing no one has mentioned is as a society we are always in a huge hurry...watch someone lift a Tuff Bin to load it in a truck, they will stand with their side to the truck, bend over and in one motion, lift and turn to slide it onto the bed. If you lift it straight up, then rotate at the feet, and slide it on the bed, its much better on the back...if you are concious of it, you'll notice tons of stuff that could/should be done in two steps in stead of one twisting one...it'll help as well.

Hipshot
06-22-2007, 22:43
Back in 1977, I experienced a hard landing during a demonstration jump...like a terminal reserve opening that collapsed after opening because I was on the pavement! Diagnosis then was a compression fracture at L1 and another at L5.

Fast forward to today - had an orthopedic specialist explain why I'm hobbling around. Seems those simple compression fractures have turned into major narrowing of the disk spaces between all of the lumbar vertebrae. I have torn disks at L1, L2, L4, and a major herniation at L5/S1. The L5 vertebrae is displaced forward about 30%. The frontal view of my x-rays was described as looking like a 'snake'. Throw in a touch of arthritus and you get the picture of one major pain in the lower back.

The doctors want to try some steroid injections first. My question is will the injections do anything to help ease the pain? There are times when the pain in really a bitch...starting in the hip socket and radiating down the leg (left side) to my instep. Best description is thinking of a white-hot poker inserted in the hip socket and running down the thigh. The pain makes me really cranky and I feel bad about barking at folks when I'm hurtin'.

PoPo908
06-23-2007, 09:32
IMHO - the injections were only a temporary relief for me (L4-L5 2003). Tried three rounds over four months, ended up with surgery. My disc was protruding up and into the canal at an angle - would not release with therapy or the injcections. Outpatient discectomy did the trick - still some occasional muscle type aches, but nothing compared to what it was before (sour attitude, hot poker sensation, pain traveling down back of leg, muffling screams getting in and out of car/aircraft, etc. ...)

Doczilla
06-23-2007, 20:35
The steroid injections will hopefully work to decrease local inflammation, swelling, and ultimately pain. The steroid works by suppressing secretion of inflammatory mediators, essentially chemicals which are secreted by cells in times of injury. These chemicals dilate blood vessels and allow them to become leaky, increasing swelling and redness. These chemicals also cause local pain (the idea is that when a part of you becomes injured, the pain makes you baby that area until it heals). The problem is that swelling in certain areas may cause more harm than good, and continued secretion of inflammatory mediators will cause pain without the benefit of expected repair. The pain that you are experiencing down your leg is because the swollen, inflamed tissue is pressing on the nerve roots where they leave the spinal cord in your lower back. Though you may eventually be looking at surgery (such as the microdiskectomy that PoPo mentioned), I've seen many patients who got very good results from the injections. The local injections give you the benefit of targeted anti-inflammatory action without a lot of the systemic effects of oral steroids. Usually orthopedists will limit you to 3 rounds injections of a single area over a lifetime, since after that there is very little benefit for repeated injections. Everyone is a little different, but you should expect some relief even if it's incomplete.

'zilla

Hipshot
06-23-2007, 21:52
Usually orthopedists will limit you to 3 rounds injections of a single area over a lifetime, since after that there is very little benefit for repeated injections. Everyone is a little different, but you should expect some relief even if it's incomplete.

'zilla

Doc: Thanks for the info. I go in next Wednesday for the first injection. The second is on July 5th and the third on the 12th. Does this constitute a round of shots or is that it - a one-time deal?

theditchdoctor
06-23-2007, 22:42
I have to put in a vote for osteopathic manipulation (think chiropractic only better supported by medical research). I fell through a roof as a firefighter- went completely through the attic, through the floor and landed in what I think was a dining room. Needless to say it was on fire so I didn't stick around to find out for certain. I walked outside and everyone on scene (who were expecting me to be dead) started clapping. Being a smartass, I took a bow and promptly collapsed. Turns out I broke 7 ribs, bruised my right lung, dislocated my right shoulder and my right ankle, in addition to straining, bruising and generally messing up the muscles and ligaments around my spine. According to the emergency department physician who treated me (former SF medic from VN ironically enough), I was lucky I was able to stand up given my injuries seeing as I was burdened with ~80lbs of gear: "Either you're damn lucky, someone upstairs likes you or you're just plain tough." Seeing as I am 160 lbs wet and skinnier than I should be, I don't think it's the latter. :D

The orthopedic doc put me on muscle relaxers and pain medication. One of the local osteopathic physicians who specializes in physical medicine and rehabilitation contacted my department and offered to treat me for free (apparently volunteer firefighters had saved his daughter from a structure fire several years prior and he felt the need to "pay us back" for what we do for our communities). Two weeks after the accident and I was still unable to sit comfortably or stand up for long periods of time without my back seizing up, so I went to see him. He manipulated my back- working on getting the muscles to relax and what not- and I felt much better. Two visits and I was able to return to duty. That's why I recommend finding an osteopathic physician (the ones with DO after their name rather than MD), especially one who specializes in physical med and rehab (PM&R).

The Reaper
06-24-2007, 08:29
I have a couple of buddies who are DOs and I have used them for manipulation when unbeknownst to me, I had a C5-C6 compromise problem causing pain to radiate down my left arm with the hot poker sensation. The treatment left me with less pain and able to move more freely.

IMHO, tdd is correct, the DO is more trustworthy than the Chiro, has a medical degree, and will not claim to be able to cure everything from influenza to eczema by manipulation. They are not cheap though.

The DOs told me that this is a common injury for jumpers from the opening shocks of parachutes snapping your head back while several extra pounds of Kevlar are attached. Who knew?:rolleyes:

I would give a DO a try before surgery, but if the injections help, then no worries.

TR

Hipshot
06-24-2007, 11:45
TR / theDitchDoctor:

Thanks, guys, for the input. The doctor I'm seeing is a DO and will be doing the injections. When I saw him Friday, he was surprised that I wasn't in more pain than what I described based on what he saw in the x-rays and the MRI prints. He currently has me on Lyrica (75mg - 2 caps every 12 hrs) and Tramadol (50mg - 2 tablets every 6 hrs). They seem to be helping - when I can stay awake.

theditchdoctor
06-24-2007, 12:50
The DOs told me that this is a common injury for jumpers from the opening shocks of parachutes snapping your head back while several extra pounds of Kevlar are attached. Who knew?

It's also a common injury in those of us involved with rope rescue (I was trained as a high angle rescue technician for the VFD). If you don't control your speed on descent and then abruptly stop, there's a chance that you will snap your head back and do various things to your cervical spine. There was a utility worker killed several years back in California (I believe it was CA) when he broke (well, technically subluxated) his C-spine in this manner.

BTW, you might look here: http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=findado_main
Call the docs in your area and see if they are willing to reduce the cost of treatment (or waive it all together) for a veteran. I know several docs who do this. The other option is to go to an osteopathic medical school- you can find a list here: http://www.aacom.org/data/cib/01-geographic.asp - and inquire about allowing to the students to work on you (under close supervision) in exchange for care at a reduced rate. If you mention that it's a service connected condition, you might be able to arrange a way to reduce the costs out of your pocket.

If I can be of any further help, please let me know.

Doczilla
06-24-2007, 21:26
I haven't seen them done in a series like that, so I honestly don't know if he'll recommend repeating the injections if they don't work. The literature I'm acquainted with only looks at single injections.

A word about D.O.s- as osteopathic physicians become more mainstream and complete allopathic (traditional M.D.) residencies, fewer are performing manipulations and traditional osteopathic medicine. I know several DOs, but none of them manipulate, or will only do so as a favor to a buddy when his neck is hurting. Having the DO degree doesn't necessarily mean that your doc will do manipulation, so you'll have to ask.

'zilla

Hipshot
06-24-2007, 22:17
Thanks, Doc...I'll ask.

theditchdoctor
06-25-2007, 18:47
A word about D.O.s- as osteopathic physicians become more mainstream and complete allopathic (traditional M.D.) residencies, fewer are performing manipulations and traditional osteopathic medicine. I know several DOs, but none of them manipulate, or will only do so as a favor to a buddy when his neck is hurting. Having the DO degree doesn't necessarily mean that your doc will do manipulation, so you'll have to ask.

'zilla

True, I forgot to mention that. :)

USMS8504
06-26-2007, 16:04
I normally just lurk, but would like to add:

There is a new therapy out (last 5 years or so), called the DRX 9000 spinal decompression, I believe. Might be worth looking into. DO’s and Chiros have been using and seeing great results with it. 80% pain relief if I recall correctly. My wife is a chiro and I can see the other point of views stated here, but you might still look around. There are a number of reservists who are chiros in the civilian sector, might want to look one of them up for a better understanding. After 20 years of ice hockey, and 5 years under a ruck, she did wonders for my lower back.

Link: https://axiomworldwide.com/DRX9000.aspx

I did not really look around, but they should have a link to offices with the DRX in them if you want to check it out.

Ret10Echo
06-26-2007, 18:56
My Chiro has a decompression system and has mentioned it to me a couple of times. It is a bit pricey for treatment so I am holding off at this point.

Guess that means I don't hurt that bad.

Hipshot
06-26-2007, 21:48
Be glad that you don't have the pain. Back in 1991 I had a major flair up with my back. It was so bad that at night when I would move, I'd wake up screaming. I was single at the time and had a small 1 bedroom apartment. The young lady who lived in the apartment across the entrance way demanded a key to my apartment so she could come over and check up on me. She was a GS-9 who worked over at Kelly AFB in San antonio. Sandy, Laura and Deb used to take turns checking up on me. Lucky me!

sg1987
06-27-2007, 05:31
. Sandy, Laura and Deb used to take turns checking up on me. Lucky me!

careful - you're coming close to braggin:D

Hipshot
06-27-2007, 11:20
careful - you're coming close to braggin:D
No Sir - not bragging - it's the gospel truth. And it's not what you think!

Matta mile
06-27-2007, 18:37
Hip shot,
One of the members suggested looking into foot wear. That is, do you roll your heel when you walk either inside or to the outside. You can check the heels of your shoes or ask someone to walk behind you. Your heel location on impact however may different when running. As it turns out, I pronate. This aggravates the lower back in my case. I have since got a pair of Brooks running shoes that helps correct this problem.
Some six months ago (when I started publicly whining here about this) I also received alot of good advice.
Stretching, the right footwear and some herbal stuff the wife got me seem to have helped alot. I can now perform "honeydo's" around the house to standard.... a mixed blessing .
Good luck with it!
MM

JGarcia
07-02-2007, 06:08
What does the heel of ones shoe look like if they are rolling their heel when walking or running?

Matta mile
07-02-2007, 06:57
JGarcia,

Remember inspecting your boots for needing a new heel by rolling a #2 pencil under the back portion of the heel? Same technique however for the sides of the heel. If you have a good shoe store in your area that sells running shoes or regular shoes they will likely be able to tell you right away.
MM

Ret10Echo
07-02-2007, 07:06
Those more knowing than I can further elaborate, but generally if you are over over-pronating a lot, the inside of your shoe will me worn down, sometimes almost crushed . You may also be a heel-toe runner and wear the heels out very quickly. Mild pronation will show less wear to the inside portion but it will still be evident that there is more wear there than the other side. There are quite a few good sites out there on how to evaluate your conformance and analyze shoe wear patterns.

x SF med
07-02-2007, 10:35
Not in this life time. The only way that could ever happen for me would be to have someone coil 14 wraps of detcord around my waist, detonate it, and lay the two halves together.:D

Damn! 14 wraps of Detcord?:eek: Guess that means you are still hard as nails COL Jack... 3 would probably be over kill on me.:(

The Reaper
07-02-2007, 11:26
Damn! 14 wraps of Detcord?:eek: Guess that means you are still hard as nails COL Jack... 3 would probably be over kill on me.:(


For cutting trees, piles, posts, beams or other timber members using explosives as an untamped external charge, the following formula is used: P = D2/40 or P = .025 D2 where, P = pounds of TNT required, D = diameter of round timber, or least dimension of dressed timber, in inches, and 1/40 = .025 = constant. Adjustment for explosive other than TNT will be made by dividing by the relative effectiveness factor that pertains to the particular explosive being used. The amount of explosive required to cut a round timber 30 inches in diameter using an untamped external charge is determined as follows: P = D2/40 P = (30)ý/40 = 900/40 = 22.50 pounds of TNT.

22 pounds of TNT for a 30" waist, or 16.4 pounds of C4. Note that the numbers are for staning generic timber, including hardwoods, as I suspect that the Colonel is, probably oak or hickory. Pine will fall with half of that charge.

THAT is a lot of demo. I am sure that a troll shot is much smaller.

TR

Razor
07-02-2007, 16:06
TR, for COL M, I think we need to use steel cutting charge formulas.

x SF med
07-02-2007, 16:40
And probably a concrete cutting charge for my head.:D

TR - does the formula take into account the burn rate for Detcord and the accelerated cross energy as focused in the center of the wraps? IIRC, you could reduce the cutting formula when using detcord due to the simulated accelerated shaping of the wraps, esp for wood and other lightweight/porous/low density materials.

The Reaper
07-02-2007, 17:11
And probably a concrete cutting charge for my head.:D

TR - does the formula take into account the burn rate for Detcord and the accelerated cross energy as focused in the center of the wraps? IIRC, you could reduce the cutting formula when using detcord due to the simulated accelerated shaping of the wraps, esp for wood and other lightweight/porous/low density materials.

Det cord doesn't "burn", it detonates, hence the name, "detonating cord".

If you are referring to the propogation rate of the explosion of the det cord, since it is primarily RDX based, the rate should be in the 7,000 m/s range.

TR

theditchdoctor
07-02-2007, 20:14
Now I remember why I like this forum......you all can turn almost anything into a discussion about blowing stuff up. :cool: :munchin:

theditchdoctor
07-02-2007, 20:17
Det cord doesn't "burn", it detonates, hence the name, "detonating cord".

If you are referring to the propogation rate of the explosion of the det cord, since it is primarily RDX based, the rate should be in the 7,000 m/s range.

TR

I know you have a LOT more experience with the stuff than I ever will, but I believe it's actually something on the order of 8,700 m/s. At least that's what I was taught in an advanced HAZMAT course I took. However, that was the propagation rate for RDX itself in a confined space.....like I said, you're the expert here, but I would like to know which is correct just out of my own curiosity.

Hipshot
07-02-2007, 23:07
Those more knowing than I can further elaborate, but generally if you are over over-pronating a lot, the inside of your shoe will me worn down, sometimes almost crushed . You may also be a heel-toe runner and wear the heels out very quickly. Mild pronation will show less wear to the inside portion but it will still be evident that there is more wear there than the other side. There are quite a few good sites out there on how to evaluate your conformance and analyze shoe wear patterns.

I tend to walk on the outside edges of my feet. It was a real problem when learning how to ski as I kept hooking an edge when trying to do parallel turns. Had a ski shop in Leominster, MA that had a cant machine. Found that I needed a 10 degree wedge under my bindings to get my skis to fit flat on the snow. My shoes show heel wear on the outside edges (left at about 7:00 o'clock position and the right about 4:00 o'clock).

The first set of spinal injections were an experience. When he went to inject my lower back (around L5), I felt a jolt down my left leg all the way to my foot when the needle went in. When he injected the steroid, there was a lot of pressure and a solid jolt down the leg. My leg jumped and I had to grit my teeth. Afterwards, I could get my leg in a certain position and it would almost fold up under me. That wore off by the next day. I've had some relief, but not much - about what I expected. Next round is this Thursday and the last is on the 12th.

Ret10Echo
07-03-2007, 04:57
I tend to walk on the outside edges of my feet. It was a real problem when learning how to ski as I kept hooking an edge when trying to do parallel turns. Had a ski shop in Leominster, MA that had a cant machine. Found that I needed a 10 degree wedge under my bindings to get my skis to fit flat on the snow. My shoes show heel wear on the outside edges (left at about 7:00 o'clock position and the right about 4:00 o'clock).

The first set of spinal injections were an experience. When he went to inject my lower back (around L5), I felt a jolt down my left leg all the way to my foot when the needle went in. When he injected the steroid, there was a lot of pressure and a solid jolt down the leg. My leg jumped and I had to grit my teeth. Afterwards, I could get my leg in a certain position and it would almost fold up under me. That wore off by the next day. I've had some relief, but not much - about what I expected. Next round is this Thursday and the last is on the 12th.

Ahh the joys of catching edges on Wachusetts Mountain....especially on "New England Packed Powder", which is ICE anywhere else in the skiing world.

Best to you on the injections. I'll be praying for relief for you.

I had read some things in the past on how over-pronation causes quite a bit of structural issues over time especially joints and spine. That is of course for the average Joe and not for someone who has driven their body like a rental car...

Based on your condition and others I know I realize I have been blessed with as little problems as I have. I started out with a combination of physical therapy and chiropractic adjustments now it is various herbal concoctions (thanks to my wife) an inversion table and a sleep number bed.

Still run and ruck :lifter but I have found that sit-ups are eeevil....

Doczilla
07-03-2007, 13:13
I tend to walk on the outside edges of my feet. It was a real problem when learning how to ski as I kept hooking an edge when trying to do parallel turns. Had a ski shop in Leominster, MA that had a cant machine. Found that I needed a 10 degree wedge under my bindings to get my skis to fit flat on the snow. My shoes show heel wear on the outside edges (left at about 7:00 o'clock position and the right about 4:00 o'clock).

The first set of spinal injections were an experience. When he went to inject my lower back (around L5), I felt a jolt down my left leg all the way to my foot when the needle went in. When he injected the steroid, there was a lot of pressure and a solid jolt down the leg. My leg jumped and I had to grit my teeth. Afterwards, I could get my leg in a certain position and it would almost fold up under me. That wore off by the next day. I've had some relief, but not much - about what I expected. Next round is this Thursday and the last is on the 12th.

If you are walking on the outside edges of your feet, you are actually supinating them rather than pronating. Look for shoes that provide the appropriate support. This limits some of your choices since most shoes are for some degree of pronation rather than supination. Shoes for pronators will actually hurt rather than help, as you will frequently roll your ankle. New Balance and Nike have some models that will help you, and their website may be of help.

Expect that it will be several weeks before you get the full benefit of the injections. There has to be time for the inflammation and swelling to decrease.

'zilla

Hipshot
07-03-2007, 15:53
Ahh the joys of catching edges on Wachusetts Mountain....especially on "New England Packed Powder", which is ICE anywhere else in the skiing world.
...
Based on your condition and others I know I realize I have been blessed with as little problems as I have. I started out with a combination of physical therapy and chiropractic adjustments now it is various herbal concoctions (thanks to my wife) an inversion table and a sleep number bed.

Still run and ruck :lifter but I have found that sit-ups are eeevil....

You're right about the ice! On a NASTAR slalomn run, I caught a gate pole and went down hard. The blue ski jacket I was wearing left a nice blue streak down the run until I finally stopped sliding.

Does the inversion table help? I've thought about getting one of those but you'd have to hang upside-down for quite a while to see any effects. Same question on the sleep number bed...the mattress I have now is like a rock, but it is also a pillow-top so it's not too bad. CinC House hates it though!

x SF med
07-03-2007, 17:49
Mount Wachussett - the biggest Ice Pile in New England! Huge crowds on Friday-Sun, mid-day PT on Wed was great there. I still have my thermometer from the Ski Hut in Leominster, the one you hang on the zipper of your jacket.

I've got a mild supination also - it's taken it's toll on my knees, and my lower back - especially if I stand on extremely hard surfaces for long periods of time while wearing uncushioned shoes (topsiders, dress shoes, etc.) I guess I'll try a back cracker to readjust my back and look for anti supination shoes/sneakers.

Thanks for the heads up.

Ret10Echo
07-30-2007, 06:10
Hipshot,
Sorry for the delay on response....


Does the inversion table help? I've thought about getting one of those but you'd have to hang upside-down for quite a while to see any effects. !

I have had mixed results with the inversion table. At first I had a doorway hangar, which required a certain amount of acrobatics to get the gravity boots hooked up. The table is much better since you can control the degree of angle rather than going completely vertical. That being said, some days it feels pretty good, other days it causes some increased nerve pain so I take it in small doses. My wife swears by it.


Same question on the sleep number bed...the mattress I have now is like a rock, but it is also a pillow-top so it's not too bad. CinC House hates it though!

LOVE the sleep-number bed. At the store I tried the test bed with the sensors. The rep adjusts the firmness to relieve "hotspots" on the computer readout. He had my number down to a very soft 40...but was still unable to get rid of all the red. I had been sleeping on a very firm pillow-top and would wake up every morning with pain and had a hard time standing upright when I first got up. With the number bed, I am much more rested, actually can get through a full night now. Hard to believe that softer was better, but it worked out that way. I think it is because the air system fills the gaps much better.
With a king-size the CinC and I have separate controls....mine at 40 hers at 100....It doesn't seem to be getting the groove in it like the old pillow tops...and I can adjust firmness depending on what I did that day.

Note: The dog adds about 5 to the number depending on which side she flops down on.....
:D

kgoerz
07-30-2007, 16:15
Det cord doesn't "burn", it detonates, hence the name, "detonating cord".

If you are referring to the propogation rate of the explosion of the det cord, since it is primarily RDX based, the rate should be in the 7,000 m/s range.

You are correct. Det Cord burning is a myth. Once a burn reaches Supersonic it crosses the line from burn to bang.



I know you have a LOT more experience with the stuff than I ever will, but I believe it's actually something on the order of 8,700 m/s. At least that's what I was taught in an advanced HAZMAT course I took. However, that was the propagation rate for RDX itself in a confined space.....like I said, you're the expert here, but I would like to know which is correct just out of my own curiosity.

A DC misconception is that it has the same explosive effect or RE factor as it's base explosive in solid block form. RDX/PTN are considerably weaker in their Granular form found in DC.

soulsedition
07-30-2007, 19:12
I work in a rehab hospital currently, that is until i unass the AO for sunnier and sandier parts of the world. Here's my .02$-

Conservative treatment beats any form of medical intervention. For instance:
1. Corticosteroid injections offer short term pain relief. However, there are some definite downsides. If done improperly, you run the risk of compressing a nerve, or stretching a joint capsule the latter applies mainly to the upper extremity. Anyone who's ever had a CS injection into their elbow or shoulder could probably attest to that. The reason being whenever they inject anything into that capsule, it stretches it, leading to instability.
2. Chiropractors/DO's can re-align/decompress your musculo-skeletal system. Without addressing the root causes IE poor posture, bad shoes, agonist/antagonist muscle instability.
3. NMES/TENS units are often provided to people to control pain, they do that very well, especially if you're concerned with taking drugs to alleviate pain.

My personal recommendation would be to get on board in a physical therapy clinic, they'll be able to advise you best on what you're doing wrong, if there are any above issues. As well as provide you with a good list of exercises to strengthen those muscles as well as stretch and condition your back.

If you wake up stiff, take a medium sized towel, saturate it with hot water, but not dripping. Place it in the microwave for 1-2 minutes depending upon your microwave. Wrap it in at LEAST 2 towels and place it on your back. It will take a little bit of time to find a therapeutic medium, because you don't want to overdue it. don't leave it on longer than 10-15 minutes, because even though it doesn't feel hot, you can get a nasty burn.

As far as the arthritis, if you're looking for a wholistic approach, try poke berries. Remember when you were a kid and your parents told you to stay away from those clusters of purple berries that always stained your hands purple because you'd get sick if you ate them? Yeah, those. Take 4 a day, dried. Before that, please PM me for more information concerning this if you decide to try that route. As with any medication herbal or otherwise- you gotta watch for drug interactions.

I grew up on a farm in WV, way out in the boondocks, my Grandmother has been a medicinal herbalist for over 30 years. When her arthritis would flare up, she wouldn't be able to hold a skillet without both hands. When she takes those poke berries, she's able to type and do any other functional activities with her hands. So i can attest to their efficacy. Has anyone had any experience with appalachian medicine?

Given the number of miles you gentlemen have under your feet, i look forward to hearing what has worked well for you.

-Steve

hoot72
07-31-2007, 01:54
Given many of you in the SF have humped hundreds of miles over the years with heavy loads on your backs using army boots and jungle boots, I can only ask, do some of you or most of you have problems with your knees or ankles after leaving the army or retiring?

Or do you find you actually have problems with the meniscus in the knees?

I am asking as I usually use old army jungle boots for my work in the jungles here and they are practical to use for the work I do but on long hikes with a heavy pack on gravel roads, they do take their toll on my knees..

magician
07-31-2007, 02:12
I have arthritis secondary to old jump injuries, and dramatically reduced range of motion in my neck, shoulders, and back. I have service-connected VA disability ratings for all of them. Then, we get to knees and ankles. Same story.

Here is what is working for me.

1. I lost a ton weight through strictly controlling my diet. In my case, I eat only Thai food. Lots of green vegetables (colloquially known as "rabbit food"), and lots of fruit (some of which has no known English name, and looks like it is either the result of a nuclear test gone amok or teleportation from the era of the dinosaurs). I cut down on meat, almost eliminated milk, and completely eliminated breads.

2. I got my ass into the pool. I crank laps for an hour every day. It took me time to work up to this. If you do not know how to swim well, for therapeutic purposes, consult a physical therapist or a trainer, and learn. Pool exercise is the shit. It is easy on the bones and joints. My back, neck, knees and shoulders are still fucked up, but I feel a lot better, and my mobility has dramatically improved.

3. I started taking testosterone in gel-cap form. This really helped me grunt through the pain and discomfort barriers as I was improving my physical conditioning. It also facilitated the conversion of fat back into muscle. It also made me a lot more mobile.

4. I married a woman twenty years younger than myself.

:)

Got to go. Heading to the pool now.

Good luck.

The Reaper
07-31-2007, 08:01
Given many of you in the SF have humped hundreds of miles over the years with heavy loads on your backs using army boots and jungle boots, I can only ask, do some of you or most of you have problems with your knees or ankles after leaving the army or retiring?

Or do you find you actually have problems with the meniscus in the knees?

I am asking as I usually use old army jungle boots for my work in the jungles here and they are practical to use for the work I do but on long hikes with a heavy pack on gravel roads, they do take their toll on my knees..

Yes. Every joint is prone to damage, from the toes all the way up through the neck. Ankles, knees, hips, backs, shoulders and necks appear to be the most common.

Yes. Many here have probably had meniscectomies.

The stuff you wear out or break while you were younger will hurt more as you get older. I didn't believe it either till it happened. The body is designed to last for normal wear and tear for about 40 years. Good physical conditioning will help it last longer and in better shape, but wear on a joint is damage. The muscles may get stronger, but the structure of the joints do not.

As you can do less PT, you have to change your eating habits or you will gain weight, which exacerbates the physical injuries and damage. Getting older beats the alternatives though.

Good luck, and take it easy.

TR

Hipshot
07-31-2007, 20:58
:(
Not much luck with the injections, physical therapy or pain meds. The meds have done a good job of masking the pain, but come with a price. Ultram ER (200mg) and Tramadol (50mg 2/day) are both morphine-based and can lead to physical dependence. Got a second opinion today from another orthopedic specialist. After a long discussion on what treatment I've had and quality of life, they've ordered a CAT scan to look at bone density to see if I'm a candidate for surgery.

The description of the surgery scares the heck out of me! They would put 2 long screws into L5, then pull it back into alignment (about 6mm worth). Two steel rods would be inserted to fuse L5 and S1 together. A steel plate would be inserted in front of L5 to keep it from tilting while everything settles.

I would imagine that recovery time for such a procedure would be on the order of 1-2 months before being able to start physical therapy, then 3+ month of therapy. Does that sound reasonable?

The Reaper
07-31-2007, 21:38
Hipshot:

I am prescribed three Tramadol per day for orthopedic pain, have been for over a year, and I usually take just two per day. I also take NSAIDs.

A couple of times, I have skipped doses or missed a few days when on extended trips, and frankly, I do not think it helps that much, is very addictive, or has any kind of serious effect, at least not on me. The Vioxx was much better, but obviously, COX2 inhibitors are not on the menu any longer.

When the pain is severe (usually about once or twice per week unless I am flying) I take Codeine, OxyContin, or Hydrocodone (each prescribed at various times), and frequently, I cannot even tell I have taken them. Then every once in a while, one of the doggoned things will work as designed and I get a little light headed for an hour or two. Maybe a two beer effect.

I do not think that you have to worry about the Tramadol, and if you are like me, the real narcotics will not do that much to help either.

Best of luck with finding a solution that works for you.

TR

magician
07-31-2007, 23:39
No joke: see if there is an acupuncturist in your area, and pay them a visit.

You may be surprised. The downside: they are typically not covered by insurance plans, nor are there any acupuncturists at the VA.

Seriously. Visiting one can change your entire opinion about the so-called "alternative health" industry, though not about hippies.

hoot72
08-01-2007, 20:33
JGarcia,

Remember inspecting your boots for needing a new heel by rolling a #2 pencil under the back portion of the heel? Same technique however for the sides of the heel. If you have a good shoe store in your area that sells running shoes or regular shoes they will likely be able to tell you right away.
MM


I have started getting swollen heels now from long hikes and bush whacking in the jungle boots..have tried adding an in-sole but was told that it may have something to do with high cholesterol (a warning sign). That on top of the lower back pains which are from my aging back and the job.

Having said that, I dont know if anyone would agree with me but reflexology (I get mine done pretty darn often in Bangkok and over here in Kota KInabalu) makes a huge difference in how my feet and legs feel after a long trek or hike especially with a heavy load. I dont subscribe too much to massages as an option but reflexology, if you can tolerate the pain for the hour, some how makes such a big difference..

Not sure if anyone has given it a go..and I dont know how good the reflexology is over in the states,

hoot72
08-01-2007, 20:36
Yes. Every joint is prone to damage, from the toes all the way up through the neck. Ankles, knees, hips, backs, shoulders and necks appear to be the most common.

Yes. Many here have probably had meniscectomies.

The stuff you wear out or break while you were younger will hurt more as you get older. I didn't believe it either till it happened. The body is designed to last for normal wear and tear for about 40 years. Good physical conditioning will help it last longer and in better shape, but wear on a joint is damage. The muscles may get stronger, but the structure of the joints do not.

As you can do less PT, you have to change your eating habits or you will gain weight, which exacerbates the physical injuries and damage. Getting older beats the alternatives though.

Good luck, and take it easy.TR


I have been fortunate; I think my injuries are no way as bad as others so I will just have to suck it up and deal with it. Having said that, I do go for reflexology once a month and that helps quite a bit..

Doczilla
08-02-2007, 11:13
I don't normally advocate complementary medicine for problems that require good old-fashioned western medicine (no voodoo for diabetes or heart disease), but I believe that in your case this may be beneficial, since surgery is the last stop on this train. Acupuncture is certainly worth a try here before surgery. When looking for someone, look first at the acupuncture schools near you. This is 1) to keep you from going to some hack who took a weekend seminar and now calls himself an acupuncturist, 2) to save you some money (usually costs about half if you have one of the students perform it), and 3) guarantee that the "attending" acupuncturist overseeing your care has some substantial experience. If you go with a private acupuncturist, look for one who has a certificate from a school accredited by ACAOM.

I've had 2 "rounds" of acupunture, one from the aforementioned hack, and the second at the NESA. I would do the second in a heartbeat if I lived anywhere near Boston again.

Soulsedition's recommendation for physical therapy is absolutely spot on. Your primary care doc can order this, and the PT will come up with an appropriate rehab plan. If you are still very active, you can consider seeing a sports medicine clinic for your PT, and may get some good recommendations from the sports med docs (some are ortho, some family practice, some emergency medicine) for exercises at home, lifestyle modification, shoes, etc.

As far as the medication is concerned, it is POSSIBLE to become addicted to Tramadol or narcotics, but unlikely. Of patients who are on appropriate pain regimens of narcotics for chronic pain, only about 1% actually become "addicted". This includes folks on fentanyl patches, percocet, oxycontin, etc. Don't let the spectre of dependence scare you out of an appropriate pain control regimen that will improve your pain and quality of life.


'zilla

Matta mile
08-02-2007, 19:13
I'm too much of a pussy to take all those darn needles!:o

bost1751
08-02-2007, 19:53
Hey Chet:

I got a little messed in Tolz years ago. I went work with the 22d in England and one of the guys there had really messed his bck a few years prior. I told me yoga is the only thing he found that worked for him and he was back to 100%. Anyway, he got me started on yoga and it really did help.

Good luck and yes, this aging thing is not all it is cracked up to be.

Dave

ccrn
08-02-2007, 22:30
I hope Im not hijacking this thread by asking this but I wonder...

Have any of you suffered a heniated disc (in particular extruded) and still served on teams?

Thanks-

hoot72
08-02-2007, 23:07
Hey Chet:

I got a little messed in Tolz years ago. I went work with the 22d in England and one of the guys there had really messed his bck a few years prior. I told me yoga is the only thing he found that worked for him and he was back to 100%. Anyway, he got me started on yoga and it really did help.

Good luck and yes, this aging thing is not all it is cracked up to be.

Dave


My dad swears by yoga as a possible solution to chronic back problems; he had a slipped disc and has always been an athlete (still is even today; he does his 5 mile runs three times a week and plays indoor soccer and still has what looks like a 4 pack on his stomach-puts me to shame really!) and actually went to see a nepalese gurkha who retired ans settled down over in Brunei many years back who had organized yoga classes and it did wonders. He even tried acupuncture which didnt help but yoga did the trick.

I have yet to go that far with acupuncture.

hoot72
08-03-2007, 00:58
I hope Im not hijacking this thread by asking this but I wonder...

Have any of you suffered a heniated disc (in particular extruded) and still served on teams?

Thanks-

My team mate on the 1000km raid gauloises in vietnam was in pretty bad shape on the first day of the hike before we even got to any of the hard sections of the race course and he was pretty much on pain killers and half awake for the rest of the 8 days we had ahead of us....we ended up towing him whenever we were on foot as he was in absolute agony..he was no good to us on the kayak sections as he well as he kept falling asleep from the pain and the meds so we ended up towing him then as well...he had no choice on the mountain bike sections and tried his best to keep up which is a credit to him which he did a good job of...we thought he had food poisoning as he kept crapping and was very weak but he kept complaining of excrutiating back pains which puzzled us...

What was worse is he got back home and then found out he not only had a slip disc but also typhoid which was probably why he was skin and bones by the end of the race on day 9....he couldnt stop shitting on the first few days and the black bombers we gave seem to work but didnt I ended up cleaning him up every day...it was a disgusting job but some-one had to do it..he was just to weak and not in sync...we thought it was just food poisoning.

I can only imagine on top of the blisters, lost toe nails, sunburn and lack of sleep what else he went through..I wouldnt wish it on anyone...

Hipshot
09-06-2007, 23:34
Anyone had a discography? I'm scheduled for one on 9-11 and was wanting to know what to expect. I've got 3 discs that are suspect for causing my pain (2 are questionable and 1 is almost certain).

Hipshot
09-11-2007, 18:45
What a bust! The "dreaded" discography (which was supposed to be extremely painful) turned out to be a minor irritation. The worst part about the whole test was the shots to numb the skin where the needles would be inserted into the disc's. My cortisone injection into my shoulder hurt a lot worse than this test.

Looks like the anomalies they saw in my back are not causing the pain. I don't think the fusion will do anything other than make me feel better about knowing that if I fall or twist wrong, the spinal cord would get severed at L5-S1. The doc did have a heck of a time trying to get the needle inserted into the disc (or what's left of it) at L5-S1, since the two vertebrae are sitting almost directly on each other (with L5 about 6mm displaced forward and moving if I bend forward or arch backward).

Besides the acupuncture or just sucking it up and quit whining about it, any ideas or suggestions?

dr. mabuse
09-11-2007, 19:33
If the doc says o.k., an inversion table may provide relief. I broke my back (fractures in L4, L5) and tried everything. Surgery was next. Had chronic back pain 24/7, and a LOT of nerve pain in the feet. Tried the inversion table and have been pain free for a year or so with only very, very minor discomfort now and then when I over do it. The strongest meds I have taken since then are 2 ea. 325 mg Bayer aspirin about once every 6 weeks. Seems to have helped my neck and knees and ankles for some reason:)

Hipshot
10-30-2007, 14:48
:D
Well, if the parachute jump did't kill me, I wouldn't think a little thing like 6 hours on the surgical table, having to be hooked up to a ventilator because I quit breathing during surgery, or having enough titanium in my back to make an erector set for my future Grandson would keep me down.

Friday, Oct 19th was the surgical date. Into OR at 0900; out at 1530; into my room by 1700; and walking by 2000!

Saturday, Oct 20th: First PT session at 0900; Morphine drip removed at lunchtime; catheter removed around 1500; first long walk (100+ feet) at 1600.

Sunday, Oct 21st: 1130 - discharged from the hospital. Total time in the hospital: 52 hours! Not bad for having an L5-S1 fusion at almost 60 years old.

I'm having good days and some not-so-good days, but that's to be expected. If you want to know where to have back surgery done, shoot me a PM. I know a great doc and the hospital with the best looking nurses this side of Beverley Hills are found!

Gypsy
10-30-2007, 17:57
Hope your good days continue to outnumber your bad days Hipshot, take care of yourself and listen to your doctor!

Jack Moroney (RIP)
10-30-2007, 19:10
Good to hear you are back on your feet. Now don't do anything stupid unless you want them to have to go back in and readjust some of those erector set parts:D

Bill Harsey
10-31-2007, 09:28
Hipshot,
Good your out of the big body shop, hope the recovery continues as it's supposed to.

Put ear plugs in place before going through the metal detector next time you travel commercial air.

Hipshot
10-31-2007, 20:53
Hipshot,
Good your out of the big body shop, hope the recovery continues as it's supposed to.

Put ear plugs in place before going through the metal detector next time you travel commercial air.

:D
Bill:

I've been told that the Titanium will not show up on the metal detectors, but if it does, just show them my scars. They'd probably think I'm trying to moon them and then I'd really get in trouble.

grog18b
12-05-2007, 00:02
I've been dealing with two herniated discs (L4 &L5) for 5+ years now. I've had numerous treatments, chiropractors and such. One of the most important things I learned is avoid medication as much as possible, especially the opium based stuff. When it first happened, the doc I went to put me on all sorts of meds, and me being the trusting soul... I learned of the side effects of this stuff after the wife left me. (she's back now) That stuff really messed me up bad. Bottom line is, after some counseling and stopping all the meds they had me on, I'm feeling much better now. The back still gives me a lot of problems, but I can mentally deal with them now. The depression caused by the pain meds and muscle relaxers, combined with the anti-depression meds really effected me. I'm retiring in 7 months and am thinking about some sort of surgery. That sort of stuff is the only thing that scares the hell outta me. I guess I'm concerned with being able to walk again. My two bro-in-laws had surgery, and both were better afterwords, but went back to work and now they both need it again. I don't want to make it worse, so I'm really stuck as to if this will help, hurt, or worse. Any thoughts?

Jack Moroney (RIP)
12-05-2007, 06:22
I don't want to make it worse, so I'm really stuck as to if this will help, hurt, or worse. Any thoughts?

This is best left for a doc, but I have been dealing with similar problems now for over 30 years by personal choice to meet professional requirements. Everyone is a little bit different, but in my case I have learned to compensate with the use of my arms and legs (until the knees went bad) to accomplish most everything physical I need to. The problem with that is that it has led to other problems with tendonitis in my arms and shoulders. So I guess what I am telling you is that the decision is obviously yours, but not all docs are created equally so find a good one that specializes in your problem or you might just be compounding your life with other problems further down range.

hoot72
12-06-2007, 19:32
Anyone had the same situation where their back muscles cramped up in the morning (a cold cold morning) and they just couldn't move or even get out of bed?

This isn't so much a hernia problem but lower back problem (pinched nerves?) and the inability to stand up straight after a long tab..

Hipshot
12-07-2007, 18:35
I've been dealing with two herniated discs (L4 &L5) for 5+ years now. I've had numerous treatments, chiropractors and such. One of the most important things I learned is avoid medication as much as possible, especially the opium based stuff. When it first happened, the doc I went to put me on all sorts of meds, and me being the trusting soul... I learned of the side effects of this stuff after the wife left me. (she's back now) That stuff really messed me up bad. Bottom line is, after some counseling and stopping all the meds they had me on, I'm feeling much better now. The back still gives me a lot of problems, but I can mentally deal with them now. The depression caused by the pain meds and muscle relaxers, combined with the anti-depression meds really effected me. I'm retiring in 7 months and am thinking about some sort of surgery. That sort of stuff is the only thing that scares the hell outta me. I guess I'm concerned with being able to walk again. My two bro-in-laws had surgery, and both were better afterwords, but went back to work and now they both need it again. I don't want to make it worse, so I'm really stuck as to if this will help, hurt, or worse. Any thoughts?

:confused:
Col Jack's got the right idea, but for what it's worth - the spinal fusion I went through is one of the smarter things I done in my lifetime. There was no disc between L5 and S1 in my back. It was completely crushed and actually had an air bubble where the core of the disc would normally be. I have degraded discs between L3-L4 and L4-L5 which will now degrade faster because of the surgery. Any time you take some mobility out of your spine, you induce more stress on the other discs.

You need to talk with your family about quality of life and what you'll do if you have the surgery. Your doctor should inform you of what to expect. If the herniation isn't too bad, it might be fixed without doing a fusion. If they have to fuse the vertebrae around those two discs, then that's going to put a lot of load on the disc above the fusion, so you need to be aware that your problems are not over.

The doc told me that if I had all three discs removed (L3-L4, L4-L5, and L5-S1) at one time, then my recovery would be a lot longer and the actual surgery would have been a lot rougher. I spent 6 hours on the table for a single fusion (done with minimal invasion). The triple fusion would have been a two-day operation and they would have had to open me up considerably.

Think about it - and good luck with wharever you decide to do.

grog18b
12-08-2007, 19:49
Thanks guys, a lot to think about. The quality of life isn't the best right now, and it seems I spend most of my off time trying to relax things enough to be able to get up and do another day's work. The wife mentioned today that it is not a good way to live your life. It's getting to the point that I feel I have to do something, but I also don't want to come out of it paralized or worse. Probably the hardest decision I'll ever have to make. It's a hard thing to live with, but at least I can walk now. Sometimes the pain is hard to take though. So many positives and negatives it's hard to choose. With my retirement date approaching, it might be a good time to get something done. The doc discussed the fusing, rods, replacement discs and all. I'm not sure which to go with, but I know fusing normally ends up killing the discs above and/or below the ones fused. Decisions, decisions, right? Anyone around here try those replacement discs? That sounds like a possible way to go.

Hipshot
03-20-2008, 21:19
Well, tomorrow marks the 5th month since my surgery and everything is going extremely well. For the first time in almost 30 years, I am almost totally pain-free (maybe 95%). It still bothers me when I'm standing for a long time, but as long as I can walk around, it's great!

Update on my boy - looks like he's in for a bit of medical problems. It only took the Army 5 months to get around to doing an MRI on his ankle. You know - the one he hurt back in early November playing paintball while on his mid-tour leave from Sadr City. He missed the last few months of his tour and is now getting ragged by the members of his unit who returned last Sunday.

Anyway - it's good to be back. Missed you all.

grog18b
03-21-2008, 12:30
Hey Hipshot, welcome back. I went through all the pre-op testing yesterday, and met the Doc that will be opening and closing. Seems like a pretty good guy, and they are going in from the frontal left side, so as not to have to actually enter the stomach area. He said recovery is a lot better with that approach. My D-day is set for April 1st, so I'll let you know how mine goes. My doc said my disc is in the same shape as yours, the bones grate together, which is where most of my pain comes from. Hopefully this will give me some relief too. Plan on taking it real easy for a while, so right now I'm getting things done around the house that I won't be able to do for a while.

Glad to hear yours turned out well.

GROG

Red Flag 1
03-21-2008, 12:32
grog,

Best of luck my friend!!

RF1

sg1987
03-21-2008, 14:37
Welcome back Hipshot. Glad to hear the back is better!

Gypsy
03-23-2008, 17:31
Happy to hear things are going well for you Hipshot, welcome back!

AxeMan
09-21-2009, 22:54
I am no doc or medic, just talking about my personal situation here. I agree with all of the previous folks as far as ways to combat lower back pain. Weight control, fitness level, core strength, shoe inserts, inversion table, massage..... all good things and definately things to do before resorting to the surgical options.

I just had the same surgery (fusion at L5-S1) that Hipshot had done. I had the surgery done at Walter Reed just over 3 weeks ago and so far, so good. I was able to walk 4 miles today and get some stretching done and am down to very small amount of pain meds.
The reason I wanted to revive this thread is that I have been mis-diagnosed since at least 2003 when I had my first MRI done. I have endured every medication previously mentioned and a couple more (Tramadol takes away your manhood and my wife made me stop taking that one). I have had PT, injections, shoe inserts, massage, acupuncture, and more.
My pain doc at Womack finally figured it out. The diagnosis from the MRI's was always incorrect because my problems were caused by the instability or movement between L5-S1, pinching nerves and grinding bone and basically being a major pain in the ass. When you get up on the table to get an MRI, they give you a pillow for your head, and even stuff one under your knees and everything is perfectly unweighted and aligned.
Once I got X-Rays in twisting and weighted positions, the neuro guys suddenly thought I had a major problem and needed immediate surgery.
If your having these problems and your doc does not order X-Rays of your back in multiple positions, pitch a fit until they do it. It made all the difference for me.

James Clifton
09-30-2010, 09:47
WDC,
Don't know if they are in your area of the woods but there is a group that streaches the back ,looks like a torture rack!Patient is hooked up to a computor with a chain,computor is fed info,you are in recline position & computor slowly tightens chain & you get streached.It used to be called "Back to Back" .Ck it out it works,I did it years ago.Hope this info may help.
Take care,
Jim

Red Flag 1
09-30-2010, 12:09
Axeman,

I've been batteling lumber and nerve root pain for decades. Documented L5-S1 disc herniation with very little space left between the vertebra. I've had x-rays, CT's and MRI's. Each study calling for an MRI, also included a Lumbar X-ray series. MRI is a great tool for soft tissue studies, X-rays are better bone studies, IMHO. I've never considered surgery as a option simply besause I have no clinical neuro findings ( muscle wasting, loss of bowel or bladder control). I too have lumbar and radiating pain as Broadsword describes. If you consider the anatomy of L5-S1 and look at the position of sitting in a car seat, it promotes the action of L5- sliding anteriorly ( forward), and creating some nerve root issues along with back pain. Happens to me all the time.

In July I had a syncopal event related to my cardiac meds. Fell pretty hard and blew out L1-L2. Diagnosis was made with X-rays and MRI. Pretty clear rupture, but still in all I've been able to manage with conservative treattment. I am a firm believer in Physical Therapy. I go religiously, and do everything they tell me to do, the way they tell me to do it. It's not easy being on the other side of the treatment team! With posture and core training, many things get better with time and work, at least for me. I'm finding I have to really think about what I am going to do and just how to do it. What usually gets me in trouble is some simple little thing; like pulling on some socks, or twisting just a bit to pick up anything.....bang, big mistake....get the ice...get the Motrin...use your head!

So much for my woes., and my $.02.

Be Well!!

RF 1

grog18b
01-06-2011, 13:35
It's been a while since I updated my condition here, so, here goes...
The surgery went well, and other than pulling a groin muscle on the last day in the hospital, I got home with no other problems. I had to get a lift chair to get my ass up and down, and actually slept in it for a few days. After a few months of recovery, and taking all the meds and health suppliments recommended by the doc, the pain of the surgery went down, and the back pain returned.

The doc said that there were three possible outcomes to the surgery, either I would get better, stay the same, or get worse. I guess I stayed the same. Now I have two hollow "bolts" where my L4-L5 disc used to be, with flexible rods and screws. The pain is exactly the same as working a full day, and getting home before the surgery. Quite depressing...

The quality of life was getting pretty bad there for a while, and listening to my 6 year old daughter describe me as "grumpy" got me motivated to fix the problem in any way I could. Watching the waif and daughter go out shopping on the weekends, and leaving me at home because I can't take the ride...

So I met with the family doc last year and told him everything I was going through, and that something had to change. We had the MRIs, X-rays, and every other test, and no one could tell me exactly where and what the problem was. All I know is, the pain is like someone hit me in the lower back with a 2x4, constantly. Hard to sleep more than a couple hours without waking up and changing position, and hard to get to sleep. Lots of leg craps, and depression.

He recommended we try a few different pain meds to see if any of them actually gave me relief. First, we tried Oxycontin. Nothing but a headache. Next we tried Morphine. They were like tic tacs. No reliefe at all, even the strong ones. Doc says some people Morphine does not help. Lucky me... Next we tried Percocet. Nada. No relief. Then Savella. Big time rash. No relief. Then he put me on a Fentanal patch. I put the patch on at 9pm, and that was the first night I actually slept all night without waking up in over 6 years. When I woke up, the pain was GONE. Hydrocodone dulled the pain, but this stuff made it completely gone. A day later I started a PT program, and dropped 35 lbs like it was a rucksack. Three months later I was 35lbs lighter and sleeping like a teenager. Awesome. I have been on the Fentanal patch for a year now, and the pain is back, but nothing like it was. I can still function, and the weight is still off. I still do the PT program (walking with 5lb-10lb dumbells for 3-5 miles @ 3.2-4mph) It does not stress out my legs and does not stress the back like jogging. Best part was, I was able to resume life with the wife and daughter, and am no longer described as "grumpy" by the most important girl in my life. ;)

The doc put me on the 50mcg patch every 72hours with Cymbalta 30mg every night, and Gabapentin 300mg 3x a day. This worked for me, and made me feel like a normal person for a year now. Not saying this will work for everyone, but might be an option for those with chronic pain like me. I plan on getting in touch with the doc and doing another series of MRI and X-ray, just to see if anything has changed back there, and to make sure the screws and rods are okay. GROG